Air conditioner

Oh, and what do we do with the steam radiators if we went with a concealed system?

Sum1else,

It typically costs around $4,500 per unit but I do not think it should cost another 4k per unit to cut the brick

The split systems are great (have installed many over the years) you should make sure that the building will allow you to put the compressor on the balcony, not every building does.

If you have any other questions feel free to email me jeff@primerenovationsnyc.com

Sum1else, It is unlikely that you need a bigger hole. Your heating seems to be separate via steam radiators and paid by the building. It is unlikely you can remove them but you can replace them if your building allows. You can buy Amana through wall cooling only units for around $1100 each. Install and removal another $300 at most. Covers extra.

Sum1else,

300 is right, I was thinking if prices for ptac units not through wall but I think it would cost more than what they are saying and never heard of anyone using Amana in Manhattan

Primer, Amana or their competitors are priced about the same if it is through wall cooling only. Figlia and Sons will install through wall with hydronic heat for $1500. Through wall are cheap as they are the same as ptac units used all over the country.

It is when they are not through wall, the cost skyrockets.

Thanks, sounds like it would be way more reasonable than I anticipated. Any idea of the cost of a split system?

I have heard well north of 25k (equipment itself is $7-8k) but primer may have more color.

Mini split cost is largely a function of how visible you want the interior equipment to be. If you're OK with the box hanging off your interior wall with refrigerant piping in a surface mount plastic raceway, then it's relatively cheap. If you want it integrated into a ceiling or closet and only a small vent as visible, it's going to be a lot more expensive.

In my building, the range has been $8k (two wall hung interior units, 2 ton compressor, fly by night installer) to $32k (two air handlers, completely concealed with lots of ductwork, 4 ton compressor, Arista).

Whether wall hung or concealed, the mini splits are far quieter and way more efficient than through-wall units, and I think they're a no-brainer if you are doing anything close to a gut renovation and have the ability to install the outdoor compressor.

flarf, Very helpful info. Was the $32k cost incremental cost of gut reno or as a stand alone project?

Very helpful, thank you.

Very helpful, thank you.

Flarf, do you know who installed the central system you mentioned? (The more expensive one). Thanks.

Wondering how people feel about this quote. $42k for equipment and installation for a Mitsubishi split system. There would be two outdoor compressors and a total of 7 indoor units of various sizes. Electrical is not included.

That's just the HVAC work. Concealment would be separate as part of my almost gut reno.

7 indoor units is a lot for a split system. Why not do central ac with 4-5 ton capacity since your condenser is outside so that you do not have see the internal units which are not the prettiest? You can put humidifier etc. It wouldn't cost more than $50k plus concealment. Your architect can recommend you a mechanical engineer who can advice you of the optimal design.

Sorry, just saw this. The $32k was part of a gut reno. Arista was the installer.

I do wonder about the 7 units. Do you have a lot of bedrooms? Two outdoor units also implies a need for more than four tons of cooling capacity -- I would be curious if your installer did a Manual J calculation to determine the exact need, or if they are just wining it based on square footage.

Thanks for the input. There are 3 bedrooms, den, living, dining, playroom in a 2200ft space. The den, living, and dining (and kitchen) all are open and flow into each other, but he still thought it was prudent to have smaller units in den, living, dining. Not sure if this could have been done with one outdoor unit but the layout is also pretty spread out as it’s a combination apartment.

Central isn’t really the best option since the ceilings are only 8’3” and we don’t want to give up two closets. Also, there are old steam radiators we cannot remove, so one of the reasons we thought the split was a good option is because the floor mounted units (Mitsubishi) will fit inside the built-ins under the 5 sets of windows along with the radiator. Two of the units would be horizontal concealed units piped in from closets into the rooms they cool.

Living/Den - 12K BTU each
Dining - 8K
BR 1 - 8K
BR 2- 12K
BR3 - 18K
Play - 8K

Is this a mistake? Is central “better ?

I understand now why you want split. Duct work is hard with low ceilings. And you can hide the indoors units under built ins. I would certainly go for a bigger unit in the kitchen/dining area due to cooking heat.

I very seriously doubt that any board will let you cut t or 6 holes in the wall. I certainly would not.

Sport, He has throughwall ac already.

That’s right, we have through wall now (5 holes). Hopefully they’ll allow us to drill two holes for the refrigerant pipes. The compressors would be on a large private terrace so fingers crossed! Thanks for the advice.

I would definitely consult directly with the manufacturer before installing an air handler inside a "built-in."

And I'd still ask your HVAC contractor if there has been a Manual J calculation performed. 78k BTU of cooling capacity in a 2200 sqft apartment is a huge amount.

Bigger is not better -- the units will short cycle and you'll get the rooms down to the desired temperature but the humidity will remain high.

You can typically have indoor units that sum up to 130% of the outdoor unit capacity. The largest single outdoor units (for residential use) are generally 60k, so that allows up to 78k BTU inside. You don't need two outdoor units.

Will do, thanks flarf. I think the reason for two outdoor units is probably explained by the maximum run length of the coolant pipes, but I’ll confirm. We’re also going to meet another HVAC contractor at some point as well. We’re still at least a month out from finalizing reno plans.

You are probably restricted by the max number of indoor units each outdoor unit comes with.

You can use a branch box inside the apartment to connect up to 8 indoor units to one outdoor unit. Any smart building would require the use of one anyway, since it reduces the number of penetrations through the wall or roof -- there's just a pair of coolant lines between the outdoor unit and the branch box, with each indoor unit connected to said box. It's a lot cleaner than running seven pairs of coolant lines outside.

Most installers over-spec the units (and do things like recommend three units for one large room, when chances are two will do just fine) because they don't want to risk a callback. They use rules of thumb based on square footage instead of doing the calculations. The homeowner then pays the price down the road with short cycling and lower efficiency. These systems work extremely well, and the people who are designing them need to get out of the 1980s-era HVAC overbuilding mindset and follow the manufacturer's specs.

Anyway, good luck.

Flarf, Impressive knowledge of HVAC. I have 5 ton central for 50 percent bigger volume. Sum1else will be perfectly fine with 5ton even if he faces south in all rooms.

Thanks both for all of your insight. Who should I be calling that I can trust to actually run the calcs and not over-spec?

Your architect can recommend a mechanical engineer to spec keeping interior design in mind (should be $3k or so) . Or you can get quotes from two installers. Just call Mitsubishi directly and they will give you the names. You do not have to use them if their estimates are too high but they will give you their opinion.