Cost of Apthorp Renovation/Windows

Guessing you are looking at 4A. I wish I could afford to live in this beautiful building (I wouldn’t say that about many buildings in the city as I am very happy where I live). Naturally you expect reno to be expensive due to old building infrastructure. These are huge chain and pulley wood windows. Will not come cheap.

Primer may know more.

So I guess that windows are not "limited common elements" in NYC, for which the condo or coop is responsible?

George, It depends on the building. Many buildings will not replace landmark windows till the time it is a safety issue. So a shareholder / unit owner has to do it.

http://www.parrettwindows.com/portfolio-item/new-york-ny-the-apthorp-building/

These are Rolls-Royce of windows.

Isn't there also an issue with the heating system in that building if you renovate?

You need to put your own new cooling and heating which is very doable for a cost of course and well worth the freedom of controlling your temperature. It seems like NYC propertyfan is getting the right advice from his broker.

Thank you all. Wow. Renovation process seems more than I can handle. I guess that is why RAM Stern properties sell at such crazy prices.

I usually estimate mid-end Manhattan luxury Reno (sub zero, moderate custom mill work, marble baths, Grohe/Kohler fixtures, ac upgrade) cost at $500 per sq ft with $100-150 of that for carry and some estimated compensation for owner’s stress/trouble. For this building, add min $50-75 per sq ft due to infrastructure upgrade, $50-75 per sq ft for somewhat higher end reno without going crazy, and $75 per sq ft for windows. So total appx $700 per sq ft including carry and appx $75 per sq ft compensation for trouble/stress.

It will still be cheaper all in (say $2500 per sq ft) than a nice new development (low/mid floor 212 Fifth Ave) and you get to live in Apthorp.

The only renovated sale this year I know of was at just over $2,300/SF https://streeteasy.com/sale/1373738
And you've got renovated 11J on the market at $2,279/SF and 5BS at $1,822/SF

Indeed. But they are mostly 10y old sponsor renovations. You can tell the sponsor Reno from white eat in kitchen with cheapish cabinetry.

I saw 11M. The layout does not work for every one.

I am closing in on $750/sqft without carry for a high end gut reno that includes full mechanicals (boiler for radiant floor heat and domestic hot water, split system AC). I think $50-75/sqft for mechanicals is too low. The engineering costs alone are substantial and shoehorning this stuff into an old building takes a lot of work to do it right.

I'd love to see that unit when it's done.

I meant $50-$75 incremental over a mid-end luxury Manhattan reno which includes some HVAC work - As a minimum all through wall unit replacement at $25 per sq ft. Absolute cost close to $100 per sq ft for mechanicals. In my $700 per sq ft, I assumed that one is not doing too much custom millwork beyond nice moldings, radiator covers, fitted master closet but not all fitted closets. Perhaps the cost to individual in Apthorp is $700 plus carry plus trouble for unrenovated unit. Many buyers will indeed spend that in that building.

Flarf, I would love to see it too when finished. Appreciate if you can post some pictures.

Btw, If some one wanted to spend a lot of money in that building, they can go for real custom cast plaster crown moldings and frieze to match original. I think NYC property fan is already more than scared.

https://streeteasy.com/talk/discussion/33553-the-real-apthorp-experience

I see 11J for sale. And I noticed the windows are single pane. Perhaps they did not replace to the new ones. Details look nice, but layout does not seem conducive to today's living. Really a 3BR with library. Thoughts?

I think it is a perfect case of owner or sponsor not wanting to spend a lot of money in reconfiguration of the apartment to make it more practical for today’s lifestyle. Master bath is very tight by today’s standards. 4 bedroom does not have a bathroom which can be used without going into another bedroom. But it is a renovated move/in ready apartment.

I am sure you noticed single sink in the master bath.

Personally if I'm looking at a $7 million apartment which is supposedly "totally renovated" and I saw they cheaped out on the windows I would worry about where else they cut corners (did they redo all plumbing back to the risers and install cutoffs for everything? Did they replace 100% of all the electric? Etc). And if it was a Sponsor Reno did they exempt themselves from the proscribed heating system alterations?

In most cases, if a prewar apartment is not reconfigured (Master bathroom size and a lack of functional bathroom for the 4th bed room is a dead giveaway), electrical is not fully redone. This is probably a reno from the time when sponsor was about to go bankrupt. That said, every thing looks pretty good move-in condition and pricing reflects the renovation quality. It is pretty nice for someone who wants a library rather than a fourth bedroom.

2H is another example of where despite the Reno being very nice, the owner didn’t spend the money to reconfigure. And reconfiguration is costly. Who wants a bathroom in the kitchen?

You want to move a bathroom, $30-50k additional cost vs Reno in place if you can get permissions.

Perhaps Primer has some thoughts on 11J and 2H configuration.

I actually don't have any problem with the layout. What I do have a problem with is calling it a 4 BR/4 bath (because it's neither of those) and saying "completely gut renovated" because it doesn't appear to be that, either. Perhaps my outrage is out of place but terms actually do have meanings and them being used incorrectly makes their appropriate usage less meaningful.

If it is 3 bed, 3.5 bath, layout pretty good except master bath is too small and has a single sink. Many people would like some ability to partially open the kitchen to beautiful dining room. I am sure that can be done with under 50k.

Yes. Top broker but clearly false headline with 4 baths. But they correct it in the description to 3.5 baths.

https://streeteasy.com/building/the-apthorp/11j?context%5Bcontroller%5D=%23%3CBuildingController%3A0x000055ae1c7f9048%3E&context%5Bcurrent_user%5D=1004028&hide_if_empty=true&section=sales

And supposedly famous Mr Coutier likes a bathroom in the kitchen.
https://streeteasy.com/building/the-apthorp/2h?context%5Bcontroller%5D=%23%3CBuildingController%3A0x000056077963d630%3E&context%5Bcurrent_user%5D=1004028&hide_if_empty=true&section=sales

"Many people would like some ability to partially open the kitchen to beautiful dining room."

The dining room will be a lot less beautiful if it's opened up into the kitchen, even partially. You need more than a door between the two spaces?

Agree Aaron but a $7mm apartment should be able to figure out a clever design where a double wide sliding door integrates seamlessly into beautiful wainscoting in the dining room wall.

I don't know how anybody would do that in that particular kitchen.

For $7mm ask one can figure out many intelligent ways - as in open 5 foot wide double door close to the window with same design as the wall. Fire places are fake.

And most interior walls are not structural as columns perhaps upto 1-2 feet away from the window bear the weight of the building.

Look at 4J floor plan.
https://streeteasy.com/sale/1330337

I am sure the owner had a choice to widen the double doors another 2 feet if they so decided.

As far as layouts go I would definitely pick 11J over the "improved" 4J.

PS Why do you think they didn't make that doorway wider?

Not everyone wants an open kitchen/living/dining room. The separation is part of the appeal of grand pre-war apartments.

@stache - I believe you are on to something.

But, back to NY real estate, I do love the Apthorp. Most recent sale looks like owner took a significant loss, but second most recent sale (3M) is more interesting. Sold 6/25/19 for $3,658,000 and then listed again less than a year later on 3/6/20 for $5,725,000 after extensive renovation; pandemic hits, one price reduction, and the unit ultimately sells for $5,150,000 on 11/19/20.

Question for the board: Do you think the seller of 3M made money? lost money? broke even? It looks like seller might be a professional quality flipper, and I do believe quality flippers have a great role to play in any real estate market. I have no insight into costs of this reno or actual carrying costs (did not look up whether flipper took out mortgage), but I hope consensus of the experts is that this flipper came out ahead, because again, I think quality flippers have a role to play and more power to anyone who can turn any profit doing this in NY. I certainly would have paid a premium for a beautifully renovated pre-war, and this one is a condo to boot.

Did anyone notice that a thread started by NYCPropertyFan just disappeared? I believe we have seen the last of either NYCPropertyFan OR 300_mercer. Unclear which personality will emerge as the retained identity, but be advised that all threads where the two posters go back and forth should be read with the knowledge that they are one and the same person.

Mind blown

I was missing NY so I got my fix by watching Only Murders in the Building. Highly recommend for anyone who loves these old buildings that have beautiful courtyards and beautiful windows.

Since my reading comprehension is so low I can't figure out where 300_mercer admits at the time he owned a unit in the building which he was renovating to flip. As a result it was in his personal interest to make renovations seem as expensive as possible and make comments like:
"These are Rolls-Royce of windows."

It's especially confusing seeing him write:
" I wish I could afford to live in this beautiful building "
when he actually owned a unit there? Perhaps his usual "I can technically say it's the truth" Even though it's intentionally misleading.

Someone more jaded than I might even suggest he started this entire discussion using a sock puppet user name.

For former boiler room manager> I just tell everyone to post and they post what I like.

Flarf>>I am closing in on $750/sqft without carry for a high end gut reno that includes full mechanicals (boiler for radiant floor heat and domestic hot water, split system AC). I think $50-75/sqft for mechanicals is too low. The engineering costs alone are substantial and shoehorning this stuff into an old building takes a lot of work to do it right.

https://nypost.com/2021/05/27/ex-sachs-exec-asks-for-3-3m-starting-bid-on-hells-kitchen-duplex/amp/

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/09/24/business/goldman-sachs-huge-lawsuit-sexual-harassment/index.html

https://wallstreetonparade.com/2023/02/goldman-sachs-is-being-sued-for-27-separate-stock-offerings-it-underwrote/

I remember when Nora Ephron was living in a 7 room apartment, maybe larger at the Apthorp, she was paying under $2000.00 a month. This was in the seventies, maybe later. Then either the landlord sold the building or she became deregulated and she was so incredibly angry that such a thing could be done to her, she wrote a letter to The NY Times among other things. She had to leave.
The entrance is right on Broadway. I’ll take CPW.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2006/06/05/moving-on-nora-ephron

@30yrs - looks like Goldman Sachs could have used some help in the risk management department.