Design Build firms vs. Contractors - gut reno

i suspect you are looking at $400+ / sqft. That might be low depending on the plumbing work you hav explained. I have been pricing things out too and it’s quite expensive! Managing the contractor on your own can be a challenge, perhaps a project manager can help you with that - your broker may have suggestions.

Are you moving bathrooms and kitchen? This decides the complexity. If you have good architect, he can manage contractor for you but at end of day you are responsible for the contractor and over runs. Clearly more work and stress for going this route vs design build. Design builds will certainly be 5-10 percent more expensive.
You overall cost will depend on landmark window replacement (could be $4k-20k per window) and infrastructure changes needed to make is 21st century. Central AC will add $100k min with engineering etc. With landmark window replacement, central AC and moving bathrooms, reconfiguring the space, you are indeed looking between $400-550 per square foot with fees not including carry and trouble. This is without going crazy with finishes as in Calacatta slab for the bathroom.

@300_mercer. No plans to move kitchen and bathrooms. Window replacement may end up being something we do in 18-24 months. My view is that we'd be crazy not to do central air if we are tearing the place apart.
@Mina / @300_mercer. You'll estimates are about where I thought they would be. If you have any architect recommendations, let me know

I'm going through this on a much smaller scale (1BR Apt)... I met with some design build firms and got estimates, but it wasn't apples to apples. It was apples to watermelons.

I've decided it's worth it to me to higher a designer to draw up plans and bid to contractors so I can get labor costs only. Then, once I bid out to them and pick one, I can back into my price with my designer to pick and choose fixtures, etc. The designers are around $10k, but I think I'll make that money back just through their management of the project and getting an apples to apples comparison.

I just found the design build firms to be impossible to compare to each other. But I am in the early stages, so anyone who has any thoughts otherwise, I'd be happy to hear.

The primary downside of Design/Build is you are pretty much locking yourself into a G.C. from the start. In contrast, on a standard project you would develop a design with an architect and then bid out to several contractors.

Ideally, you want move into space and live in it for a while. Living there will really provide some insight into design problems you'd like to address. In addition, you are not leaving the unit vacant for an extended period of time. Between design, board review, building architect/engineer review, DOB/Landmarks review, the timeline is highly variable. If all goes perfectly, construction can be underway within a few months from the time you close on the apartment and hire an architect. If there are delays, it could be upwards of a year or more. To reiterate, it's better to reside in the apartment during this unpredictable timeline as opposed to leaving it empty and getting more irritated every month you pay maintenance and get nothing in return.

The level of renovations you are describing are fairly substantial even as a non-forever home. I would be happy to discuss more, refer contractors/sub-contractors, etc.

Richard
Manhatta Architecture, P.C.
http://www.manhatta.net
richard@manhatta.net

I am just finishing my gut renovation and it will be 14 months - it is about $500sft. There was a lot unexpected delay in having the design approved by the board/coop engineer, and then more delay in choosing a GC. But overall I agree with Manhatta that the best approach is to hire an architect, and then choose the GC (from various bids gathered by the architect), and have the architect manage the GC. The Design/Build firms I found were more expensive, in some cases substantially. On the other hand you may be able to get the project off the ground faster with them. But as you will be living at the apartment, there is no hurry I assume (a few months here and there).

I can make recommendations if you are still looking - but how I found my architect is I looked at renovated apartments on Streeteasy that I liked in terms of design, and then searched the DOB permit dB for the architect on the project.

And yes go for the air conditioning. It is crazy expensive and you will be tempted to skip, but once it is in and those ugly window units are gone you will be very happy.

Ladygirl, Without moving kitchen or bathrooms, it is a much easier project and you can probably get it done from $300-350 per sq ft without windows and excluding carry and trouble. With lower complexity, you can go architect/ contractor route or design build. It wouldn’t matter much. It is more of a matter of finding the right person for your budget.

What you miss in hiring a GC or Design/Build firm off the bat, is the ability to properly detail and determine the full project scope prior to locking yourself into a contract for construction. Having a detailed set of plans and specifications to properly bid your project out – free market – to builders of varying price points, quality, speed, etc. is invaluable in the overall process. You posses the most leverage in negotiating the cost of construction prior to awarding a contract to a builder. I’m also not entirely sure how they navigate the world of Co-Op/Condo board approvals and/or DOB permits but I assume they partner with their own consulting architects.

I would be happy to speak with you further regarding your renovation project. My office’s work focuses mainly on high-end residential renovations in NYC and ground up constriction in the Hamptons. Feel free to visit our website for samples of work.

www.studiolabdesign.com

Best,
Matt
mhm@studiolabdesign.com

Ha. I am sure the architects tell you upfront how much the design choices are going to cost.

I think there is nothing wrong in either route.

Some opinions. You can search the web for more comparisons of two approaches.
https://network.aia.org/HigherLogic/System/DownloadDocumentFile.ashx?DocumentFileKey=f2d69710-6d8b-4c83-82b2-f755dc513f65

You know what one of the worst things you can do to the buyers of any product? Give them too many choices. There are many tales of post renovation divorces. While I don't have a scintilla of evidence, I have to wonder if using a design and build firm didn't save any couples from that fate.
Or you could do what I did - a gut renovation/period restoration where you design everything yourself, be your own GC, do some of the construction yourself, etc. and don't discuss it with your wife until it's finished and you just show her the final product.

Well said. Design build is a lot less stressful for the owner and a good design build firm should let you terminate the remaining contract before construction starts if you think you can get it done cheaper and faster. If you have a lot of money and time for heavy involvement in the project, a good architect can create a beautiful custom product.

I disagree completely that design build is a lot less stressful for the owner. The biggest reason for stress is poor planning or hiring the wrong people. There are great design build firms, there are good ones and there are bad ones, same goes for architects as well as contractors.
You need to do your due diligence.. Find the right team that you personally feel comfortable with. Check references, go see their work.

Individual contractor / architect / design build firm differences are indeed very large. There is no substitute for finding the right team.

Primer, I am curious why contractors do not partner with architects to offer option of single contract and upfront cost transparency with allowance for materials. Most people are very anxious about the what it would cost to Reno.

We’ve now done 2 significant (for us at least) removations - a $220,000 on a 1BR and a $375,000 on a 2BR. First one with design build, second with architect. Second was exponentially less stressful despite moving walls. Pleased with both renovations and agree that rest with either approach will be entirely team-specific, but FWIW, my personal preference is to have architect designer loyal to me rather than to entity that is also constructing and supplying materials. Contractor will also be more responsive to independent architect b/c architects can provide more reliable flow of work than homeowner who provides occasional reference.

300 Mercer,

Not sure that matters.

Typically I recommend an architect or two (Matt from Studiolabdesigns, for example) who posted a comment earlier for example is excellent. I don't think it matters if it is one contract or 2.

For example, When I go to meetings once I am told what the scope of the work will be then I can give a budget that will be pretty close to what it will end up being.

Once the architect submits his plans if the price is too high we will do some value engineering to get the price down.