Downtown Brooklyn & LIC featured in the NYT

Very interesting, indeed. They mention a slew of buildings in neighborhoods that are at the forefront of the current decline and they call the people who have recently bought there "very savvy buyers". It is so interesting and so surprising coming from the NYT Real Estate section that I'm just speechless.

Toren looks like it was built by The Borg.

I actually don't know what to take from this article. It sounds like certain ethnic groups are drawn to certain areas. That's great for some people, but I'm not sure that's great as a whole. Look at the flushing main street area. Unless you speak or read one of the Asian languages, you would have no idea, what the stores sell. It is a very uncomfortable feeling, walking around in an area, where English is not the spoken tongue.

The other thing I got from this article, was the fact that, these buildings are at or below 50% of sold units. With the exception of the Star, who just began selling, this would indicate major problem in this declining market. It show many of the units being sold, prior to the credit crisis. How do they finish selling the other 50% when demand has dropped 50%?

Most of the buyers were those seeking one bedrooms and account for the bulk of the sold units. That's great but, didn't we just read a article, in the same paper last week about the glut of 1 bedrooms on the market. I would guess that competition will increase and hinder future sales unless prices are adjusted. And if only 50% on the building is sold, with the clear majority of them being 1 Beds, what happened to the demand for the other units? Is the 2 bed/ 2bath $800,000-$ 1M market dead in the outer boroughs?

I'm really trying to wrap my arms around all of the indicators that this article provides. I think it possesses a lot of useful information.

Oh and by the way, LICComments I would like to draw you attention to the part that says the Powerhouse is 45% sold. Like I have been saying, this project is having a real tough time selling units. I believe in the past you debated my stats. on the 50% sold statement. Actually you were half right I was wrong. It's actually lower then I thought.

Wow, Star Tower is half sold already! Powerhouse is almost half sold. So much for dco's "analysis" that there is no demand . . .

Actually dco, you have been saying all along that Powerhouse wasn't even close to 50% sold. I guess you have been wrong all along.

"It is a very uncomfortable feeling, walking around in an area, where English is not the spoken tongue."

Way to live the closed / small minded stereotype... If you had paid attention, you would have noticed that most buyers are second generation immigrants who probably speak better English than the average New Yorker. Debating the merits of the real estate market is fine (everyone is entitled to their opinion), spewing this kind of stereotypical / marginally racist crap is not...

"The other thing I got from this article, was the fact that, these buildings are at or below 50% of sold units. With the exception of the Star, who just began selling, this would indicate major problem in this declining market."

For Oro, I would agree. For Toren, I would not - they started selling in March, and given that the building's structure / curtain wall isn't even finished yet, 50% sold is pretty good in this market. Also, if you look at the apartments in contract, there is a good distribution between stuidos, 1BRs and 2BRs, compared to the apartments originally listed for sale (of which there are only 17 left, out of a starting cohort of over 100).

Powerhouse "half sold"?

A building with 177 units and 54 in contract is not "half sold," except in LICC's always creative Gnu Meth.

"Half sold" is developer-speak for "we're working on it, bankruptcy is looming because we can't afford to lower prices."

Looks to me like Star Tower has ZERO units in contract, unless they're hiding them from streeteasy.

Typical of steve - make bad assumptions from incomplete data. What makes you think streeteasy has up-to-date, accurate information? Keep trying steve, it's fun watching you flail.

When are you guys going to admit that the Toren is a potential winner in any market? Everyone with a pulse knows that the housing market is in a very down phase and likely to continue its decline but the Toren has obviously caught the imagination of many potential purchasers. The fact that it is well situated for a Chinese population is great. It would be great regardless of the ethnicity of the prototypical purchaser. First you guys dump on the blacks in the projects, now it is the Chinese. What are you guys going to do when the majority of United States is comprised of minorities?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/14/washington/14census.html?sq=majority%20minority&st=cse&adxnnl=1&scp=1&adxnnlx=1218913352-bhq5FbGsWlV5GqmVIIk2eg

Hmm, another person thinks dco makes ignorant comments. Interesting . . .

"What makes you think streeteasy has up-to-date, accurate information?"

What makes you think the NY Times Real Estate section - a shill for the industry - actually did any independent investigation of the data? Or did they take the word of the developer?

Nah!

"Keep trying steve, it's fun watching you flail."

You live in Long Island City, and I'm flailing? :)

"First you guys dump on the blacks in the projects"

Who did that?

"now it is the Chinese."

Who did that?

"What are you guys going to do when the majority of United States is comprised of minorities?"

Rejoice. I'm a minority, too!

ap307- What was so wrong with what I said? I could careless what language someone speaks. My point was, that not everyone wants to live in a neighborhood, where they are feel a visitor. If you have even been to a neighborhood, dominated by another culture, you would understand what I'm talking about.

You my friend are very ignorant as to social demographics. Just look at this city and tell me that people don't gravitate to culture's like their own. I guess everyone in this city, who choices to live in area, where their cultural and religions life styles best represents them is a racist. Spare your bait racist cries for some other agenda because you are balking up the wrong tree.

LICCommnets - You need a history lesson. I have always said the Powerhouse was less the 50% sold. It's you that has claimed that all my stats were way off. So which is it? The article says 45% sold. That was not what I said, that's the developer talking or the author doing his/her research. I'm telling you now like I have in the past. Most of those LIC condos will never sell. Actually we are going to start to see major developments go bankrupt. Star and the 2 Hunters Point buildings don't even have a way of checking their progress. So I'm very skeptical to say the least about their claims of units sold.

LICC- View 59 has 20 units to rent. This was hailed as the flagship building for Queens Plaza. The "it" building in the "it" area. How do you explain that it has 20 units for rent. I thought that NYC had no flippers. Oh that's right, the developer planned on holding on to 50% of the building so he could collect rent. I'm confused, please educate me as to why and brand new "beautiful" condo in this "gorgeous" area could have 50% of its units for rent.

This my friends is the best example of what happens to buyers who believe the hype. Lets say that 10 of these are rentals buy private owners. It would indicate that this building was ground zero for an investment property gone bad. I'm sure the developer is very pleased to have over 10 units still not sold. Give me a break.

There is possibly 2 reasons for a new owner to rent. One they were a flipper from the beginning or two they actually can't believe how bad the area is and refuse to move in. I guess not everyone likes to pass hookers on the way to work in the morning.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/building/24_15-queens-plaza-north-queens

dco, what's frightening is that you have "a very uncomfortable feeling, walking around in an area, where English is not the spoken tongue." A little xenophobic are we? And obviously you *do* care what language someone speaks, because it obviously makes you feel uncomfortable when they don't speak english. And believe me, a lot of people love going to these "uncomfortable" areas to enjoy the diversity this world has to offer. But feel free to stay away from these areas as it'll be more comfortable for everyone else.

So not only is dco a doom-and-gloomer, he's at best a xenophobe, and at worse, a closet-racist?? Please stay at home wherver that is - we wouldn't want you leaving your walled off coummnity and feel uncomfortable walking around our neighborhoods.

dco stop with your lies. You know that the top area of LIC is the waterfront area. The next best area is along Jackson Avenue. View 59 is not in the most desirable area of LIC. You know this but you just flat out lied.

"the top area of LIC" = oxymoron.

fedup, SteveEasy-- Its great to see how you just ignore my explanation of social demographics. And yes I don't like to be in a place where I don't understand the language or can't read the signs. And I'm not alone. That's why you have areas of this city dominated by the same cultures. Chinatown and Flushing are just two that come to mind. Every borough has them. So according to you, the residents of those areas, are no better then me in my "racists" thoughts. My guess is that you have no idea about how and why this city has developed in different ways. My guess is that you are not a native New Yorker or you would understand.

And in case you haven't realized it also works for wealth.

LICComment- Have you or haven't you defended the area around Queens Plaza? If you haven't and think the area is not worth the price's, then say so and I will apologize. But from what I remember you have said the area is developing and worth the money. Would you buy or recommend your mother or sister, to buy at either View 59, Crescent, or Star.

Also have want you to be objective as possible. Do you think the Powerhouse is having financial difficulties?

The editor of the NY Times RE section has admitted that the purpose of that section is to sell advertising and little else. I remember the day - about 6 months ago - where the front page story was how the market was humming along, but the front page of the actual times noted the first huge market declines. Not even a word in the RE section.

Hell, if this isn't a clue...go to nytimes.com. Above the categories of actual news (world/business/US/technology/health/arts/etc.), there is a highlighted section:
Jobs
Real Estate
Autos
All Classifieds

I enjoy some of the pieces, but if you think the RE section is anything other than articles paid for and catering to brokers, I also have a bridge to sell you.

As for the particular piece, this is little else than a public interest story. And those "stats" probably came from the brokers themseles. But we're on streeteasy already, so why they hell would anyone actually be paying attention to the claim numbers, when realy ones should be very easy to get...

> A building with 177 units and 54 in contract is not "half sold," except in LICC's always
> creative Gnu Meth.

Well, lookie there, surprise, surprise. The brokers lied, the the NYTimes RE section picked it up.

And, as dco pointed out, 50% sold on some of those buildings this late is VERY poor...

> When are you guys going to admit that the Toren is a potential winner in any market?

When it, uh, wins anything.

"My guess is that you are not a native New Yorker or you would understand."

Yeah, I guess in my case 43 years of growing up/living in the Bronx, Queens, and now Manhattan don't count as a native NYer.

SteveEasy- WOW. I find that shocking. Why did you move out of the Bronx and Queens in the first place?
How is it that you have no idea about cultural neighborhoods? Dominicans in the Heights, Jews in boro. park, Puerto Ricans in South Bronx and Bushwick, Asians in Flushing, Rich white people in Midtown, Irish in Woodside, India and Pakistani in Jackson Heights.............. And I'm the one people assume is the racist. I guess all those people are racist, because they choice to live, in a area of similar culture. If you are naive NY'er then you would understand. It's a natural human response and it's 100% about feeling comfortable within the same element. So do me a favor, the next time you want to "race bait", try calling REV. AL he will teach you the right way.

Just a thought... isn't it possible that this kind of "news" counld hurt these neighborhoods in the long-term?

I'm not saying this is a good thing, but if white yuppies in Manhattan are told that x neighborhood is mostly asian, and this other neighborhood mostly something else, isn't that going to reduce demand from that set?

Short term, there could be an interest bump, but usually the more "specific" an area gets, the less the relative values... This is exactly what happened where my folks live. Short term, good "interest", but over time, as the buyer pool shrunk, the area starting falling behing neighboring areas in value..

> Yeah, I guess in my case 43 years of growing up/living in the Bronx, Queens, and now Manhattan don't
> count as a native NYer.

That might make you a native NYer, but it doesn't necessarily make you an aware native NYer.

Calling someone a racist for noticing the patterns of where folks gravitate - particularly on a real estate blog on a thread talking about EXACTLY SUCH MOVEMENT - is pretty darn stupid. I'm inclined to think you are another of LICC's psudonyms.

Don't know how I forgot about this... but I just remembered. NYTimes RE section did pretty much the same article a year ago... only it was about FiDi. They noted that similarly high %s of buyers in the new buildings down there were Asian as well...

Anyone remember that one? I don't have the link...

dco, no one's ignoring anything. What does your explanation of social demographics have to do with you being *personally uncomfortable* in areas where everyone doesn't speak english and all the signs aren't in english? One has nothing to do with the other. And if you're comparing your experience being part of the dominant culture/language walking through a small area where you aren't versus immigrants who come to this country who don't have a good grasp of the dominant culture/language, then I don't know what to say except I have you give you props for speaking your mind and revealing your xenophobia. Thankfully the majority (I think/hope) embraces people's differences and realizes that it's what makes this country so great. And if don't want to be around diversity, then you're certainly in the wrong place.

fedup- Spare me the stars and strip saga. I have said it as plain as I can. I prefer to live in a place, where I don't have to carry a multi-language dictionary, everytime I go to the store. If that's not correct PC, I could care less.

My explanation of social demographics and my feelings are exactly the same. People gravitate to various areas because, it's what makes them feel more comfortable. You act as if I should apologize, for wanting to live in the area, where I can read the store signs and restaurant menu's. I have worked in many of these areas and trust me, they are not always as welcoming as you think. Perhaps your experiences have been different.

I my friend, know the real New York. There are many place's in this city, you would never want to visit, let alone live.

ritchi, what is your deal against Asians?

two negative posts against Asians on two boards, not a good trend.

(and no I'm not Asian, not that it matters)

dco, didn't you read my post? I applaud you and your xenophobia, I really do! Better to wear it on your sleeve than hide it in your heart. And I don't know where you're going, but practically everywhere I go there an english translation somewhere. Feel free to be as uncomfortable as you want. Sucks for you.

"Why did you move out of the Bronx and Queens in the first place?"

Believe me, it had nothing to do with me feeling "uncomfortable with people not speaking english". If you feel so uncomfortable in such a heterogenous city like NYC, not sure why you choose to.

Per streeteasy, less than 1/3 of the Toren is even in contract. And, the article leaves out the 15% of apartment being sold to lower-income folks.

So, how again is that 50% sold?

Are we just in another one of those 110 livingston brokers lying through their teeth things again?

Eddie, there are also 42 affordable units in contract at Toren. These are in addition to the 74 that are showing up on streeteasy. These figures added together gives the 50% in contract.

Streeteasy - 74 in contract (31%)

Affordable - 42 in contract (18%) These don't show up on streeteasy because they were part of an affordable housing lottery. The incomes go up to over $100k btw

Total 116 in contract (48%)

So, less than 48% in contract, and all in contract don't sell, so even less than that sold.... 50% is still a lie, even if you include the lower income housing.

Smashing success, I must say...

Direct quote from NY Times

(Roughly half of the building’s 240 units have been sold, and occupancy is expected next summer.)

48% in contract = roughly half in contract

Why don't you get in touch with NYT and see if they'll issue a correction?

already been discussed. NY Times RE section is an advertising section, not a news section. They are there for the advertising.

Oh yeah, and you missed the other big point.... "in contract" <> "sold".

Someone else pointed out that ZERO is sold of there is no C of O.

Being that it's a year before it's expected occupancy this would be expected.
Do you really think there might be a C of O for a construction site?

Maybe I should try to close on my place even though there are no windows?

In contract is the best measure of success or failure for a new development that's still under construction.

I don't disagree, but that certainly doesn't make "in contract" sold...

If they were straight up, they would have said that under 40% of the market rate apartments are in contract...

They have this LIC extension in LIC with beer and music. I was there over the weekend upon insistence by a friend. It was hilarious!!

There were people in wife-beaters and sandals drinking beer in the sun (with tattooed biceps) - sort of like in rural midwest. This was mixed with a crowd of a small number of women dressed up like they were going out, in nice going-out dress - hello!! Also, funniest part - there was this "cool" guy head banging from roof top nearby, to this god-awful music they played at MOMA, WHILE sipping bud from a can. The only thing missing was cow-tipping.

Outside of Manhattan, the only place I have seen urban crowd is Brooklyn (heights and park slope). Other than that, just go to Hoboken and save some taxes y'all ..

What is an "LIC extension"?

BTW, I did say earlier that LIC = Jersey City....

I think eric_cartman means an LIC extension of MoMA, which is PS1. They have an awful "Warm Up" to one's Saturday night plans in their garden. Unattractive crowd, bad music, bad installations.

Ah, totally... I think MOMA did a bad job of keeping a presence in LIC when they moved back. They obviously own PS1, but there seemed to be a real drop off once the primary formally left Queens. I don't think it ever really recovered.

"There were people in wife-beaters and sandals drinking beer in the sun (with tattooed biceps) - sort of like in rural midwest."

Meatheads are everywhere. Meatheads suck.

EW you may want to think about getting a job that actually pays a decent amount of money. It might take some edge off your frustration and maybe allow you to save up for an apt when the market has that 50% -90% correction you are looking for.

Again, the biggest complainers are always the biggest hypocrites. That statement sounds *awful* bitter to me... (not to mention baseless)