At Trump Place 220 (220 RSB), some lines appear to be nearing 2004-2005 price levels.

Here's a question for the statisticians in the group: How would you calculate the absorption rate on a building with 30+ active listings, two in contract, and no closings in four and half months?

An 8 on its side?

Look at the sister building 220 RSD #7D. The asking per sq ft is competitive with some coops in the area. But the tax condo fee also rivals that of a coop. *ouch*

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/352985-condo-200-riverside-blvd-lincoln-square-new-york

West81... i believe something divided by 0 is like infinite :)

hsw9001... I'm getting a tingling feeling down there.... it can only mean a price chop is coming... 5 weeks no movement... gonna put some serious pressure on anything above $1000psf in that hood.

A word of advice to RE brokers... I've got a good friend in the High end used car business.... he keeps chopping every two weeks no matter what the other dealers are doing.... it gets to a point... when a chop happens that undercuts the market by a hair... the car is gone.... I've seen it happen on a couple of 997T and F430.... to sit and think that a listing can stay at one price for 2 months in this market is doing no-one a favor. And if the owner doesn't care to lower the price.. .well maybe he/she should just keep paying the CC and RE.... and doh! I forgot the $10K mortgage.... have a nice day.

Postscript: #11A sold in March, with storage, for $895K, about 6% over the 2004 acquisition cost ($837K + $6K)

220 RSB #24E was just reduced to $849K, 10.4% below the owner's basis from February 2006. The ACRIS trail on this property suggests substantial distress.

--------Recorded Sales----------|--------Previous Listings----------
CURRENT ..... #24E+ .......................|↓ $849,000 1 bed 1 bath 903 ft² + storage room
02/15/2006 #24E+ $948,000 -4.2 |↓ $990,000 1 beds 1 bath 903 ft² + storage room

The competition among 1BR sellers at 220 does not appear likely to abate soon.

hsw9001 et. al.: Any thoughts?

Hmm you'd wonder when they'd cut their loss and give it over to the bank.

What makes my jaw totally drop is that about 25% of the apartments are either for rent or for sale. 200 & 240 RSB are not on much better footing. With so many apartments on the market, they become more of an interchangible commodity. Methinks there'll be more distress sales in the future.

Some units at 240RSB are heading back to pre-construction pricing, specifically the clutch of 3-beds (A, H) in the sub-4m, low 4 price range.

Just reading this reminds me of Mystery Science Theater meets the real estate channel.

220 RSB #17E - first mentioned here about six months ago - closed for $1.625MM. That's 14.2% below the mid-2005 comp directly below. Call it an early 2004 price, perhaps?
Date ----- Apt. - Recorded Sales ----| ---- Current/Previous Listings --
07/14/2009 #17E $1,625,000 -4.4% | $1,699,000 2/3 beds 2 baths 1,486 ft²
09/20/2005 #16E $1,890,000 -3.1% | $1,950,000 2/3 beds 2 baths 1,486 ft²
#16E had black granite countertops. #17E appears to be fully loaded.

although 17E was well done on the inside, I'm somewhat surprised that it went for so much. The Apts of a similar size in 200 Riverside are much cheaper. I do know 220 is newer with a better tax abatement and somewhat better amenities, but the prices that are being asked for the two bedrooms are incredible. I wonder when they will come down to reality or are they just going to 'sit it out.'

Waiting to see what 17N will sell for

With the sale of #4A from Chase's WAMU REO portfolio for $630K, the market seems to have spoken.
------------- Recorded Sales -----------| ---- Current/Previous Listings -----
07/24/2009 #4A ... $ 630,000 ........... |
10/29/2008 #4A ... $ 823,179 ........... |
07/19/2007 #4A ................................ | $999,000 1 bed 1.5 baths 979 ft²
11/10/2005 #4A $1,049,000 ........... |

A train wreck probably could have been averted with a short sale in 2007, long before the October 2008 foreclosure sale.

Let's throw in the very first sale:

03/11/2003 #4A $501,930

Just for nostalgia....

... and that 2003 buyer is the only winner in this whole sad saga.

I actually have trouble making the numbers work even at $630K. I guess it's an OK price if you plan to live there. But for an investor, isn't it still a money-loser, unless you assume that the rent (currently $4K max) and/or property value will rise over time?

Articles such as "Investors defaulting to make money" make me wonder if the worst is yet to come.
http://therealdeal.com/newyork/articles/investors-defaulting-to-make-money

How many investors in these condos are not paying their maintenence and etc to the detriment of their neighbors?

I will be using 4A as my primary residence. The mortage is reasonable and tax is low. To west81st's question, i think it will just break even if the apartment is using for investment. This is assumpting full occupancy during the entire year which is a questionable assumption.

Philip: Sorry nobody noticed your post here. Might thave been one of those periods when new posts weren't bumping threads to the top of the board. Anyway, thanks for responding, and best of luck on RSB.

"How many investors in these condos are not paying their maintenence and etc to the detriment of their neighbors?"

I remember reading that this was a HUGE problem in Miami last crash. Part of why condos got so cheap is because after values declined a bunch, the same properties now had renters not cleaning up after themselves, leaving bottles in hallways and such, and then there were fewer apartments to split the maintenance.

So the $500k condo that went to $400k couldn't sell because it was dirty with high maintenance, making $300k the next stop.

By the way, another 2BR data point is in from 200 RSB:
200 Riverside Boulevard #35E
04/15/2004 Previous Sale recorded for $1,150,000.
06/30/2006 Previous Sale recorded for $1,550,000.
04/04/2009 Listed in StreetEasy by Corcoran at $1,425,000.
06/06/2009 Listing entered contract.
07/31/2009 Sale recorded for $1,337,500.
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/399472-condo-200-riverside-blvd-lincoln-square-new-york

Apartment #17N, discussed at length on page 1 of this thread, closed on September 17th for $3MM, up 3.4% from the owners' 2004 basis.
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/229226-condo-220-riverside-boulevard-lincoln-square-new-york

The one bedrooms are still much higher then comparable ones that are not in a trump building in the same area....

At this point, even 2002 Trump Place buyers may have to settle for relatively modest profits.
200 Riverside Boulevard #10D: 3BR/3BA, 1,723 ft², closed 18.5% above 2002 basis. That's not a disaster, but it doesn't leave much of a margin after transacton costs.
08/07/2002 Previous Sale recorded for $1,350,000. (ACRIS ID FT_1070008776207)
06/02/2009 Listed in StreetEasy by Prudential Elliman at $1,695,000.
07/09/2009 Listing entered contract.
09/14/2009 Listing sold.
09/14/2009 Sale recorded for $1,600,000.
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/416930-condo-200-riverside-boulevard-lincoln-square-new-york
The history of the line shows the value arc pretty vividly:
------------- Recorded Sales -----------| ---- Current/Previous Listings -----
09/14/2009 #10D $1,600,000 - 5.6% | $1,695,000 Sold 3 beds 3 baths 1,723 ft²
04/26/2007 #18D $2,175,000 - 1.1% | $2,200,000 Sold 3 beds 3 baths 1,722 ft²
12/15/2006 #19D $2,200,000 + 0.0% | $2,200,000 Sold 3 beds 3 baths 1,723 ft²
04/10/2006 #14D $2,000,000 - 3.6% | $2,075,000 Sold 3 beds 3 baths 1,723 ft²
12/14/2004 # 6D $1,525,000 - 6.2% | $1,625,000 Sold 3 beds 3 baths 1,723 ft²
01/06/2004 #12D $1,850,000 - 2.4% | $1,895,000 Sold 3 beds 3 baths 1,723 ft²
08/07/2002 #10D $1,350,000 ........ |
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/building/200-riverside-boulevard-new_york

So here's my $0.02. 200 RSB was completed before 220 and 240, so tax rebate ended or is ending soon and hence pushing down the price. 220 RSB and 240 RSB were completed in 2003, so I think they will feel that sting in the next few years.

Note that it only took 5 weeks to sell the apt in a market that was not moving at all when they put it on the market. Could it be because of a reasonable price? I wonder what the 2 bed apt in same building that has been on and off the market since 7/08 and asking $1,795,000 for 1200 sq ft will do now?

Here's a foreclosure that could weigh heavily on 1BR appraisals at 220 RSB:
-------- Recorded Sales -------- | -------- Current/Previous Listings --------
10/30/2009 #4S+ $530,000 ........ | (Sale by Chase)
12/03/2008 # 4S $770,939 ........ | (Purchase by Chase at referee's sale)
01/10/2006 #4S+ $860,000 ........ |
01/05/2006 SR60 .. $8,500 ........ |
09/08/2003 # 4S $510,000 -6.4% | $545,000
01/17/2003 SR60 . $10,000 ........ |
12/13/2002 # 4S $406,000 ........ |
The ACRIS history for Block 1171 / Lot 1763 offers a taste of the stellar underwriting performed by WAMU and B of A in 2006.

The last arm's-length sale of a comparable unit was #7S in June 2007 for $885K. Higher floor, but no storage unit. So the drop in value for this line, for appraisal purposes, is probably well above 30%.

There's nothing like a condo. So much scope for stellarosity, and fees, and fun all around.

Another good one is block 1048, lot 1931, #31C at http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/building/301-west-57-street-new_york. Paid $675K in 1996, now up for auction for a bit shy of $2M in debt. Not counting the CC lien, etc. What's astonishing there is the sheer volume of mortgage transactions on one lousy apartment over 12 years. Imagine the fees racked up all along the way.

A house has fees too, higher gas & electric, higher upkeep too(painting, roof, gutters, garbage collection, gardening, etc..

Yes, but I'm Manhattan-centric. Look at it from the fee-seeking mortgage banker's perspective, needing transactions -- good or bad -- to keep the money churning. A co-op just doesn't cut it, with its extra hoop to jump through for a refi, the borrower having to actually live in it, etc. Condos were a god-send for bank revenue.

#4H may set a new standard for Trump Place condomania:
02/05/2008 Listed by Corcoran at $4,600,000.
04/03/2008 Price decreased by 2% to $4,495,000.
06/20/2008 Price decreased by 3% to $4,350,000.
12/15/2008 Price decreased by 11% to $3,850,000.
05/01/2009 Listing is no longer available.
05/23/2009 Listed by Corcoran at $2,500,000.
06/02/2009 Listing is no longer available.
07/16/2009 Re-listed by Corcoran.
07/31/2009 Listing is no longer available.
08/11/2009 Re-listed by Corcoran.
08/20/2009 Listing entered contract.
12/30/2009 Sale recorded for $1,665,377.
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/closing/952949

The ACRIS trail on this one is daunting. Aside from inconsistencies with regard to the apartment number and square footage, cross-collateralization with other properties (including another investor minefield, UN Plaza) makes the stake of various lenders difficult to ascertain. The owner's apparent death adds to the forensic challenge.

death?

West81st, yes, what a mess, the most telling part being the little $50K mortgage at 24%. Not clear whether the owner's dead, as "estate" may refer to his estate in bankruptcy, as the Gazes guy is "Chapter 7 trustee".

Ahh... that makes more sense. Google turned up a recent obit for the same name, so I figured it was the other kind of estate sale.

Is this 4HI? Not a bad deal for a large 3br at 220. That's got to be close to the original number for the 2 separate units. Wasn't there someone looking for a real 3br at this price point on the UWS?

You call nyc10023. Flmao. $500psf. No problem. Never wavered, never flinched, never a lemming.

Not that I'm a big fan of Trump Place, having rented there for a few miserable months, but haven't '09 sales averaged over 1100psf? This is earth shattering, w67thwannabe is vindicated!!!! You heard it here first, half price sale at 220 RSB!!!! Popcorn and weenies will be served, balloons for the kids! Let me know if you need help moving sitty, I have a truck.

Flmao. Truck..... A sure sign of kanadian day laborer.

FYI game is in 2 nd inning. I'm getting nice pick up on $1.5mm to $2mm 3bdrms. Bonus is dead, get ready for NYC re to roll over soon and be a 'bottom'. Hahahhahaahhaaa

maple syrup? Anyone.

Get ooot of here! Seems the lower end 3brs haven't moved at all since I was looking a year ago.

Im looking to buy a 1 BR with North exposure (i.e. 240 RSB). Is $1100 psqft reasonable? Any advice on buying in this building/complex with only a few years left on the tax abatament? any noise issues?

First, you've got the issue of $1100 ppsf being rich given recent comps. For example, this south-facing unit sold for $944 ppsf just last month:

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/487408-condo-220-riverside-boulevard-lincoln-square-new-york

I don't know how your unit compares, but a 16.5% premium sounds pretty rich.

Second, this place is trading at 25x rent-to-price, which makes it unattractive from a financial perspective if you aren't willing to look at the purchase premium simply as consumption rather than investment. For example, here's a unit (hey, this might be your unit!) that is asking $880K for sale and $2995 for rent:

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/489514-condo-220-riverside-boulevard-lincoln-square-new-york
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/rental/611522-condo-220-riverside-boulevard-lincoln-square-new-york

Obviously, both price and rent are at numbers that are above market given that no one has yet been willing to buy or rent at those prices for 4 months. However, if you take the market price to be an equal discount on both, that's a 25x place.

So, $1100 ppsf seems like a high price both on a relative basis (compared to what's transacted) and a fundamental basis (compared to the financial value of the asset).

When I say something is a good deal, it damned well is.

1/20/2010 220RSB, 4HI, sold for 1,689,453 to "Retained Realty" - no mtge recorded.
3/3/2010 resold to end user 2.15m. No broker fee paid.

4HI - 2716 sqft.

$450k profit in a month w $1.6mm @ risk with an insider deal? I dunno, looks like a Ho hum deal to me.

At 240 RSB (Heritage), the lesser 1BRs seem to be joining their older cousins at 200 and 220 in the red vs. 2005. The asking price for #11N, advertised as a "short sale opportunity", has actually crossed below the original sponsor sale. Competition from #5N isn't helping.
------------- Recorded Sales -----------| ---- Current/Previous Listings -----
** ACTIVE ** #11N .................................|↓ $799,000 1 bed 1 bath 791 ft²
** ACTIVE ** # 5N .................................| . $799,000 1 bed 1 bath 791 ft²
06/23/2010 #10NT $900,000 - 7.7% |$975,000 1 bed 1 bath 791 ft²
03/15/2006 #14NT $844,750 .......... |
12/21/2005 #15NT $860,500 .......... |
12/06/2005 # 3NT $950,000 .......... |
11/07/2005 #11NT $828,250 .......... |
11/03/2005 # 9NT $801,750 .......... |
10/27/2005 #12NT $829,000 .......... |
09/23/2005 #10NT $817,500 .......... |
08/04/2005 # 7N . $784,308 .......... |
08/02/2005 # 5N . $709,783 .......... |
07/14/2005 # 8N . $779,979 .......... |
07/08/2005 # 3N . $643,250 .......... |
07/06/2005 # 6N . $734,500 .......... |
06/03/2005 # 4N . $670,517 .......... |
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/building/the-heritage-at-trump-place?show_all=true

#3N looks particularly difficult. It started as a brilliant flip in 2005: nearly a 50% profit in just a few months. The current owner had it on the market with two different brokers in 2009, but there were no takers north of $900K.

W81. It is interesting to look back at the sales of the condos that prompted the start of your thread. You had characterized 10A as whistling past the graveyard for raising their price to $1,099,000. Somehow that raise didn't make it into the history but one wonders if they were still whistling as they sold for $800,000 which surely didn't afford them a profit after transaction costs from their 2004 purchase. Had they dropped their price to the 9's back then, they would have fared better

04/29/2003
Previous Sale recorded for $545,000.
04/16/2004
Previous Sale recorded for $750,000.
06/29/2008
Previously Listed by Prudential Elliman at $1,085,000.
09/19/2008
Delisted temporarily by Prudential Elliman. Last priced at $1,059,000.
08/20/2009
Listed by Prudential Elliman at $849,000.
09/22/2009
Listing entered contract.
10/21/2009
Listing sold.
10/21/2009
Sale recorded for $800,000.

And, I wonder if new listers are taking into account that 1 BR's in the Rushmore broke into the 900K's --albeit smaller apts with much better amenities. And the Aldyn is about to come on the market. 1 Bed rents are starting there at $3900 but they must be negotiable.

11 N - truly "trickle down economics":
10/05/2010 Price decreased by 8% to $849,000.
10/13/2010 Price decreased by 4% to $819,000.
10/30/2010 Price decreased by 2% to $799,000.
How low can it go? Any guesses? Final selling price and when?

You call? Surely $500psf. And more short sales in trump? Oh my. Really. You mean that one guy who 'scored' big in 2009 won't be the last 'winner'. Freaking hilarious. Those bldgs got more flippers flat footed than...

2003 - $545,000
2009 - $800,000

$225,000 in 6 years. Sixty eight percent in six years! How is this NOT a definition of a bubble?

gon be flippin burgers

Pulaski: Clearly the buyer in 03 who sold for 750,000 in 04 is the clear winner here. But 68% is chump change. There were many, many apts that exceded 300% in a decade. It was most def a bubble --- and still remains in bubble territory imho

pulaski, do the numbers on a leveraged basis, say 10% down.... that oughta make ya spit you coffee...

220 RSB #10E closed on 11/16 for 1.675MM. That's down 7% from the sellers' 2007 basis of $1.8MM. That's not a bad result at all, considering that the same apartment three floors down rented in August, asking $6200. (#10E was also available for rent, asking $7500.)

After expenses, the deal is almost certainly an equity wipeout, because the sellers only put 10% down in 2007, borrowing $1.62MM.

05/27/2003 Previous Sale recorded for $925,115.
08/10/2006 Previously Listed by Prudential Elliman at $1,890,000.
06/06/2007 Prudential Elliman Listing sold. Last priced at $1,845,000.
06/06/2007 Previous Sale recorded for $1,800,000.
01/08/2010 Listed by Prudential Elliman at $1,849,000.
05/06/2010 Price decreased by 3% to $1,795,000.
10/08/2010 Listing entered contract.
11/16/2010 Sale recorded for $1,675,000.

The first owners made a killing. The second owners lost their investment. The third?
Time will tell.

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/487860-condo-220-riverside-boulevard-lincoln-square-new-york

anyone knows if it's a new resturant at back of 140 rsb?

Must have been worse than the investment, no? 6% broker plus 7% loss means 13% (not including any other transaction or holding costs). Then again, maybe transaction costs were minimal since they might have been living there (though that too is debatable if they were looking for a tenant).

Still, no fun living in a home that has to be regularly maintained in "open house" condition.

Two new restaurnats on Freedom place, An Asian and an Italian. Looks like it might open soon.

I hate to be a downer on the RSB developments. But unless you're a resident, why would you ever "go out" to eat there.

220, 15A, only down around 4%, but from an 09/04 sale.

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/490511-condo-220-riverside-boulevard-lincoln-square-new-york

02/13/2003 Previous Sale recorded for $591,000.
09/01/2004 Previous Sale recorded for $855,000.
01/21/2010 Listed by Prudential Elliman at $935,000.
04/08/2010 Price decreased by 3% to $910,000.
05/17/2010 Price decreased by 1% to $899,000.
08/27/2010 Listing entered contract.
11/02/2010 Listing sold.
11/02/2010 Sale recorded for $820,000.

nyc10023. I have to agree with you, with a few caveats.

1) Summer spill over from Riverside Park
2) Lincoln Towers and 66th street traffic
3) ABC studios is right there(The View)

Aboutready: After expenses, #15A is an equity wipeout, and may also have been a short sale. Chase was owed at least $755K on the consolidation of the original 650K mortgage and an additional $77K borrowed in 2007. It's not clear what happened to a $119.5K HELOC written by Chase in September 2004 and recorded in 2006.

These loans look like a good example of terrible lending that probably looked sound and conformed to all of Chase's policies at the time: a teaser-rate option ARM with a HELOC on top to max out the 90% LTV limit, all based on a price that was 45% higher than the prior-year sponsor sale; then another round of wishful financing in 2007, just when Chase should have been tightening.

#10E appears to be another equity wipeout. The sellers borrowed 90% ($1.62MM) of their 2007 purchase price, so the relatively modest 7% price drop, to a 2006-ish level, probably puts them underwater after expenses.
05/27/2003 Previous Sale recorded for $925,115.
08/10/2006 Previously Listed by Prudential Elliman at $1,890,000.
06/06/2007 Prudential Elliman Listing sold. Last priced at $1,845,000.
06/06/2007 Previous Sale recorded for $1,800,000.
01/08/2010 Listed by Prudential Elliman at $1,849,000.
05/06/2010 Price decreased by 3% to $1,795,000.
10/08/2010 Listing entered contract.
11/16/2010 Sale recorded for $1,675,000.
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/487860-condo-220-riverside-boulevard-lincoln-square-new-york

220 RSB #11B: Closed 15% below seller's 2007 acquisition price. The Streeteasy history omits the 2007 listing and sale.
02/20/2003 Previous Sale recorded for $681,159. (Appears to have been an April 2002 contract.)
06/11/2003 Listed by Manhattan Apartments at $795,000.
08/16/2004 Listing no longer available.
03/05/2007 Listed by Corcoran at $990,000.
05/25/2007 Listing entered contract.
08/07/2007 Sale recorded for $965,000.
09/14/2010 Listed by Corcoran at $895,000.
10/06/2010 Price decreased by 3% to $865,000.
11/09/2010 Listing entered contract.
12/29/2010 Sale recorded for $820,000.
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/553446-condo-220-riverside-blvd-lincoln-square-new-york

The 2007 sale of #11B shows under #11B+, because a storage unit was included in that sale. The storage unit might have been excluded from the recent resale, in which case the drop from 2007 would be a bit smaller.

220 Riverside Boulevard 9F + SU40: Closed 1.5% below 2004 acquisition price.
01/08/2003 Previous Sale recorded for $497,000 (+$5,000 for SU40).
11/23/2004 Previous Sale recorded for $815,000 (+$10,000 for SU40).
01/30/2009 Previously Listed by Prudential Elliman at $995,000.
04/05/2010 Prudential Elliman Listing is no longer available. Last priced at $925,000.
06/23/2010 Listed by Jay Schneider and Partners at $995,000.
07/21/2010 Price decreased by 5% to $945,000.
10/24/2010 Price decreased by 2% to $925,000.
12/04/2010 Listing entered contract.
01/24/2011 Sale recorded for $812,500.
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/534903-condo-220-riverside-boulevard-lincoln-square-new-york