$726 PSF on Upper East??

The problem likely isn't the building, but rather the apartment.

- Although it's listed as a "junior four", and has plenty of floorspace, it can't be converted unless you want a windowless living/dining area.

- The windows there are all face east toward, well, I don't know what. An alley?

- The position of the entrance renders the dining area very awkward. You walk into the apartment and WHAM, there's the dining room table. Nice flow there.

Thanks... that makese sense. I didn't see the floor plan, I just got floored by the number...

Actually, one follow up for you, W 81... all things considered, would you put $726 psf for a "problem" apartment in the "normal" range for 2007/2008, or would this be low even given its problems? I get that the psf should suffer some, but I have not seen even problem apartments that low (outsideof land lease stuff). Or, put another way... is this one of the cracks in the market foundation? (crappier stuff falls first). Should these problems drop the price $250 or more psf below average, or is average what has declined...?

bump

Eddie: Probably a little of both. Not my market, so I have no idea what's going on over there. All I can say is that you've picked out an 1100 square foot apartment that functions more like 800 square feet, with no views.

Also seems to have relatively low ceiling height...

Gocha, thanks for the insight W81.

No light in the apt.

Do brokers have a button on their keyboard that automatically types the words "loft-like"? If not, they should think about adding it as a time saving feature, since it gets added to every single listing regardless of ceiling height or layout.

Couple of points: see comparables! Apt. 4E sold 4/2007 for $697,000. Higher floor, unknown condition. Still, 2E may be in decent condition but there is nothing at all special about the finishes in this apartment--they appear decidedly low-end in the kitchen and bath isn't even pictured. Based on that comp (and mind you 4E lingered on the market for quite some time), apt 2E is priced absurdly high even after the recent reduction. It isn't even within the realm of reasonable--it appears to be off by $100 K, or 15%.

Second, on the upper east side, there are countless apartments just east of this one in high quality coops which sell in the $600,000-650,000 range that are higher up, with comparable or better junior-4 layouts and space. Why on earth someone would pay anything like a premium for a totally average to below average unit (low floor is killer) when so much more is available is beyond me. Maintenance is hardly a bargain either for a second floor apt.

This unit will not sell without severe price adjustment. Seller is unlikely to entertain a bid for $150,000 under asking (which is about where a bid should begin on this), so the unit will sit, the brokerage contract will expire at 180 days on market, a new broker will come in only if seller drastically reduces price and then something may happen.

It's a 35% down co-op, which is probably depressing the price somewhat.

Leaving aside how this unit is priced compared to others in the building/area -- which is not my expertise because I generally stay away from the UES -- I like this layout better than you guys.

Draw a wall from the kitchen to the north end and you're left with a windowless living/dining room that is 21 feet long and nearly 14 feet wide. That's big enough for both a couch/TV area and a dining table -- not a terrible compromise for someone with a young kid (say a six-year-old) -- or two young kids who could share a bedroom.

You get to put the kid(s) in a real windowed bedroom, which is 12 by 14 so you could even build a closet in it, the kid(s) have their own toilet, and you get to be in a good school district. You have no w/D, but you have pretty good closets.

If it were priced correctly (and I don't know whether it is or isn't) this could be a good young family apartment.

ali r.
{downtown broker}

I simply disagree which I don't often with ali r. because she's usually right on the money. With a plethora of junior-4's on the upper east side at competitive prices and WINDOWS, why on earth would anyone resign themselves to living in a prison-cell of a living room with no windows!? You can turn a dining room into a bedroom in a zillion apts. without making this sacrifice. At a bargain basement price, maybe... But what are these people even thinking with the current asking price? Talk about tough resales: a windowless dining/living area. You don't have to be an expert on the UES or RE to see the price here is absurd and that this is a 1-bedrm--not a convertible 2 in any reasonable world. The market has said as much based on the apt not selling.

I am with kylewest on this. Windowless living/dining rooms are ok (maybe) for kids just out of college, but decidedly not ok for a family.

2nd floor in a 16 story building doesn't help. Since it's a Co-op, take that 1100 sq ft with a grain of salt, though it appears that it "approaches" that number. I'm also showing a flip tax of 10% of profit.

Re the layout, not unlike the situation where a client wants an alcove studio / junior-1, but have to weed through the alcove listings that are "dining" alcoves - often useless for a sleep area.

Clarification - the flip tax statement (10% of profit) also has a notation of a 7500 max. But that statement dates from 03/02, so not sure if that's still the case.

For people with 5 year horizon to be in the apt, I don't think flip taxes figure much in considerations about whether to buy. 1-2% of sale or 10% of profit, or $X per share upon sale, so long as it all comes to under 3% of total resale I don't think people care much--they'll gripe, but it won't undo a deal. Once you hit 3% with flip taxes or the equivalent, then you start to spoil deals.

All true - especially if the adaptation of a flip tax - whether small, medium, or super-sized - leads to actual or perceived $$$ "breaks" on the monthly maintenance. And $X per share flip taxes are usually relatively low amounts.

For most people, it won't be a deal breaker. BUT - if a buyer is fortunate enough to turn a 1M property into a 2M property over 8-10 years (not a totally unrealistic assumption), 10% on profit is 100K. Yes, I know it's a mere fraction of his good fortune, but he may feel he could have done the same on an apartment WITHOUT that annoying flip tax.

I'll take the position that a flip tax may not figure into WHETHER to buy, but perhaps WHAT to buy.

Flip taxes will become utterly ubiquitous in coming years I predict as coops struggle with increasing fuel and labor costs and have to balance maintaining services against keeping monthly fees in check. The flip tax is a painless way to build revenue since it doesn't really ever "hurt" to pay it. It's paying money you never really had. The flip tax will become more and more common. Not the other way. So even with a 10 year horizon, I don't think basing a current buying decision on a coop's current flip tax is very prudent. Much better to focus on quality of building, protected views, thoughtfulness of layout, and neighborhood.

In this example of the OP, the neighborhood is pretty much the same for many blocks in any direction which is an area containing countless similar building; the apt. has no view at all it seems; the layout for a one bedroom is middling given the inventory on the UES; the building quality may be very good. So, in the end, zero here worth a premium and the layout and low floor/no view warranting serious discount over comps.

All true... that being said, I don't remember 40% discounts being given for no light in 2007....