UES co-ops

The UES is somewhat out of style, though in a certain range of buyers and in certain areas it never went out of style. I think that the rise of condos, and the flexibility they offer over coops has been the biggest influence on desirability / popularity. But these days, coops typically trade at a discount to condos for that very reason. Boards haven't helped by trying to force a lower bound on price per share, while simultaneously failing to make the building appealing in other ways, or being realistic that a unit that hasn't been touched in 40 years will need substantial renovation, and thus must trade at a lower price than new contruction. If your holding period for a unit is long enough, by the time you want to sell, you'll be on the board and have fixed their attitudes!

A few things:

- A lot of the narrative around the moves during COVID was about finding more space to maintain personal distance away from people and to enable work from home. Manhattan was negatively hit by this vs. suburban real estate. Older coops with smaller floor plans are hurt by this vs. newer larger floor plans.

- A lot of the actual move in real estate was driven by the very low interest rates increasing buyer purchasing power. With coop down payment requirements and post-close liquidity environment, the lower rates are less impactful. If you can buy with 3.5% down in the burbs, then 2.75% rates changes your monthlies a lot to get you buying power. For a coop, the very low mortgage rates don't help with the 20-50% down payment and don't help with the years of post close liquidity needed.

- Some of the national run up was driven by stimulus payments. Coop boards were not accepting this an income and if you received these payments you probably aren't in the right income bracket for a lot of Manhattan buildings.

The UES has been out of style for at least 20 years now, and all of Manhattan has been flat for the past ~8 years. What’s so different about UES coops?

Tell Miki Naftaly how out of style the Upper East Side is.

Thought he did well with this project. No?
https://streeteasy.com/building/the-benson

Being in demand and being in style are two different things. Have you ever heard people walking around the UES saying “It’s so cute/nice here, one day I’d like to live in the UES!”

I am glad Natfali and others are bringing nice developments to the UES, profitability, because the neighborhood could use some freshness against its stagnant housing stock.

I am surprised at this one too. Mostly sold. I guess Miki Nafthalu doesn’t carry about a hood being in style. He seems to be making good money.
https://streeteasy.com/building/200-east-83rd-street-new_york#tab_building_detail=1

UES stuffy Coops are definitely out of style due to tough coop boards, unreasonable financial requirements, old fashioned layouts and in many cases no washer dryers allowed. There is much less room for new condos as everything is built already.

I know four families who moved/moving pending closing from Prime Village locations to UES and for 2 of them $10mm plus budget. All in last 1 year. It is the private schools who did it. Q line is certainly helpful. I never understood what keeps the prices in UES high despite being out of style but now I do.

Good point 300. Parents of four year olds are never the “in style” demographic but if little Horace “Tripp” Farnsworth III is starting at Dalton and daddy only wants a 15 minute subway ride to his biglaw partnership, then UES it is.

Ha. One of the couples, who is really stylish, even sold their top condition $20mm plus village townhouse for their 6 old school commute. Kids rule. That is indeed the UES market.

What happened here?
https://streeteasy.com/building/11-east-73-street-new_york/3ac

https://streeteasy.com/closing/10934460

Mrs. Stein, who had 3A & 3C, died and Mr. Fisch bought the units from the estate? Not quite sure what the question is.

Mr. Stein purchased 3A/3C back in 1990.

Mrs. Stein appears to have previously owned 2A and 2D, which she sold to somebody in 2 separate transactions (2012, 2019, respectively).

Seems a bit pricey given all the other sales in the building (but had to tell, given the relative lack of sales).

I don't understand that layout -- 2 kitchens, and no dining room, unless you consider the EIK to be a DR, which I don't. Neither of the bedrooms has a direct entry to a bathroom, and there's no coat closet right near the front door?

Aaron, Sorry should have been clearer. It went way above ask. That surprised me.

Condos are not selling well either .
Not everyone can afford an apartment in NYC , and renting is much easier
I think that NYC is still struggling . Some neighborhoods are faring well, but WFH and fewer workers in the city is still an issue
Losing 300,000 jobs through the pandemic, a city council and DeBlasio that weakened the police , and there you go.
It will be a while before the comeback happens, we're still in the beginning stages of a recovery

On a unit I'm looking at it appears the seller has had offers, but none are acceptable to the Board. That really concerns me in the backend when I'd go to sell.

When did "walkable to good schools", "good access to public transportation", "tons of restaurants nearby" and "close to the park" go out of style for families?

The rise of Tribeca, Hudson River water front and development on West Side below 34th street certainly had an impact on the popularity of UWS and UES. Basically downtown didn't have good green space but Hudson River water front development changed it for families.

Under 35 who used to consider UES as a location to live and play are now mostly in Brooklyn, LIC, LES, EV. UES restaurants are not that good vs downtown. You will pay 20% less for better food downtown. I think for that crowd UES is certainly out of style. I remember 25 years back, young hip people would meet up on places on UES. I even remember waiting a while to get into Mechant's on the East Side. That doesn't happen much anymore on UES.

I'm looking for a 1/1 on the UES so, based on the comments above, it may still be a popular area with families due to access to schools, park, etc, but perhaps not for young singles. Are empty nesters, who would be the market for a 1/1, not flocking back to the city as much as before the pandemic? That would definitely affect selling it down the road.

Two thoughts on UES co-ops:

one is the general thought, that as real estate becomes more automated, the expertise/special sauce of perfecting applications and managing boards is becoming devalued. It is indeed possible, as GeorgeP mentions, that there's a unit where the offers are coming lower than the board would like, but it's also possible that it's a bit more subtle - that offers are coming in from marginal/atypical candidates (I have this financial profile, so I'm sensitive to it) and they're not being presented well. This would indeed be a problem on the back end if all of the real-estating is turned over to the robots.

two, GeorgeP, is the specific thought that I'm bringing a post-war 1/1 to market for rent in Carnegie Hill in a little bit, if you want to try before you buy. (The owner, having seen the impact of interest rate/war in Ukraine turmoil on the market, wants to wait a year to sell.)

ali r.
{upstairs realty}

Ali, Have you seen approval for new purchases by coops boards getting easier in the last few years given increasing supply of condos?

We're bidding on a 50% down Park Avenue co-op, and indeed lots of talk about what price point this board would be willing to accept.

Maybe because I've always lived downtown, I actually find the Upper East Side very charming, especially in the Park Avenue/5th avenue corridor.

Ali, Thank you for your input. I always look forward to your cogent points on the state of the market. We will hold off on a rental for now as we continue to look. I'm not so sure your seller will see a higher price in a year but who knows.

theburkhardtgroup, Good luck with your bid. Are there many counter bidders these days? I was looking at 1230 Park. It's a very nice, well managed building, but the units for sale seem to be just sitting there.

This looks like fair value in a great building.

https://streeteasy.com/building/1185-park-avenue-new_york/2e

Thank you GeorgeP for your kind words.

@300, I'm not the right person to answer that because I'm such an outlier -- people often hire me because they think they're marginal candidates for whatever reason, and so we're usually climbing uphill to get board approval.

What has changed in the last few years is that buyers *think* co-ops should be easier, so more than once I've done my extensive-board-package with a little behind-the-scenes detective work thing, only to be subsequently told by the successful buyer client that they could have done it themselves!

Sure, and I could probably build a wooden boat that would float from a kit, but .. but ... sigh, there is just no rest for the wicked.

What does seem to have changed in this part of the cycle (which frankly feels like a downcycle, even though when I look lots of prices are flat) is that, just as in every downcycle, buyers expect to get reimbursed for the cost of "their" renovations.

If a target apartment is priced at X, and it has a fifteen-year-old kitchen, and a new kitchen would cost buyers Y, and a newly-renovated comp apartment would cost them Z, that doesn't mean that the target apartment is going to sell for Z-Y. Adding insult to injury, it does mean, however, that some co-op boards are going to evaluate buyers based on their ability to finance and carry, not X, but rather X+Y.

ali r.
{upstairs realty}

15y old kitchen is still pretty good unless they went for a cheap cabinets and appliances. If almost all buyers will change it, the discount really should be more than the cost of a new kitchen. Call it at least $25k for the trouble of updating assuming kitchen is the only thing which needs an update which is rarely the case.

Sorry to hear that. Marginal candidates are always difficult approval.
>> What has changed in the last few years is that buyers *think* co-ops should be easier, so more than once I've done my extensive-board-package with a little behind-the-scenes detective work thing, only to be subsequently told by the successful buyer client that they could have done it themselves

GeorgeP , depends, however for the most part, not many counter bidders. We did just enter contract on a morning side heights home. After the last reduction, bidders appeared, we were just a bit better. Two other listings we're told (50% down buildings) they now have an offer, we're discussing a bid this morning.

As mentioned earlier, I think this will be a very quiet summer. Will take a little bit more time before sellers accept where the market is. Buyers are out there though, we just signed 3 deals, and have a few more in the hopper. If you prefer to own v rent and need to move, find the right seller, you can make a deal that would not be possible 6-8 months ago.

Keith Burkhardt
TBG

Percentage-wise, how much lower are the deals now than 6-8 months ago Keith? Interested in hearing where the prints will come out before they come out ;).

Seems to me that the UES is also a bit like brown furniture, that is just not the style of the moment. But there is a demographic element at play for buyers that want new developments or conversions, open floor plans, ease of condo purchase and/or useless amenities, there is little to be found in prime UES. On the other hand, as we head into our childless mid-50s, my wife and I will be decamping our oversized village condo loft in the relatively near future for the cozy confines of some down-sized apartment in a stuffy, full-service, amenity-free, sleepy coop that secretly does not welcome families or millennials somewhere near the park on the UES or Sutton/Beekman.

@300: Yes, that apt at 1185 is, if not a stellar bargain, a fair deal. I'd live there. It's an excellent floor plan, and it would be fairly straightforward to pull out moldings and whatnot were one so inclined toward more modernist minimal decor (I incline not). For those who really love the 'enter directly into your LR with no buffer zone' style popular in much new construction, you could pull down the walls that separate the LR, entry, and DR, and have one big loft-like space, >60' long. Don't need a big DR? Turn it into a combo library/DR, or 'family room'/DR. Probably needs a new kitchen and baths (because they didn't show any pix), but where else are you going to find space and proportions like that for the price? (See 14E for how to turn this floorplan into a rabbit warren, or 16/17F if you want to go crazy contemporary).

Aaron, It does need a new kitchen and potentially some update of baths. Decor is easy to update. I would move there but I like open kitchen which will be hard to do in this apartment.

Sport,

So true. That is why new condos and Miki Naftali seems to be doing well in UES. It took me a while to understand the demand drivers on UES.

"But there is a demographic element at play for buyers that want new developments or conversions, open floor plans, ease of condo purchase and/or useless amenities, there is little to be found in prime UES."

@nada it's hard to really quantify that, especially with my very specific and small sample size. Currently what I'm experiencing is ease of getting deals done, less to zero competition. 2 to 5% discount from ask on a few of our recent deals. But we've also paid above ask/ask on others.

You can probably track this a bit better through urbandigs.com

front_porch FYI, The contact page on your firm's website is not working properly.

The far East Side near Gracie Mansion and Carl Schurz Park always seemed attractive to me. A little quieter over there yet close to amenities. Also good police protection due to proximity to Gracie Mansion. It seems like there isn't a lot on the market in that neighborhood.

Aaron/Nada,
For your entertainment. Reno a little too bling for my taste.

https://streeteasy.com/building/1185-park-avenue-new_york/sale/1564257
2009 Purchase at $19mm.
https://streeteasy.com/closing/786524

2009 sales seems to require reno. These are the type of coop apartments where buyers have plenty of high end condo choices.

GeorgeP, thank you! I'll get my designer on it... in the meantime upstairsrealty [at[ gmail will find me.

ali r.

Here is an overpriced and as per broker "impeccably renovated" UES coop. Call it 2300 sq ft. I get it if they wanted $6mm. Then people wonder why UES coops don't sell.

https://streeteasy.com/building/40-east-88-st-new_york/15b

Madoff was the previous owner. Looks like an estate sale. $5mm to move?

Someone whose better at searching StreetEasy Talk should post a link to the discussion from about ?3 years? ago regarding the Park Avenue Coop which seemed to be a "good deal" and then of course the Board rejected the sale over price.

300, these two units are examples of why I said:

>> I am glad Natfali and others are bringing nice developments to the UES, profitability, because the neighborhood could use some freshness against its stagnant housing stock.

The 1185 Park Ave 16/17F unit is wrong in so many ways. Asking $16M for what, like 4000 sq ft? Ceiling height is not great and downright low on the lower floor. I can’t for the life of me figure out why they chose to put the common rooms on the lower floor, as the upper floor has better ceiling height AND wrap terracing. It makes no sense.

40 E 88th St 15B is more coherent, but at $3K+ ppsf I’d rather give Miki the money for a modern building with current finishes, ceiling height, and useless amenities.

(FWIW, I make extensive use of the gym & pool in my building so it’s not useless to me.)

Nada, Exactly. These coops have competition now from new condos without the coop hassle.

@300: Madoff was prior owner of 40 E 88 15b or 1185 Park 16/17F? Neither, I believe. Bernie was in the PH of 133 E 64th (across Lex from my regular restaurant, from which one could watch the TV trucks and camera crews on duty as it all went down). Ths unit is also back on the market.

One of his kids, perhaps?

From the previous sale records. Bernie's brother.

Madoff, Peter B
C/O Krass, Snow & Schmutter, Pc
419 Park Avenue
New York NY 10016
Madoff, Bernard L
C/O Krass, Snow & Schmutter, Pc
419 Park Avenue
New York NY 10016
Estate Of Gladys C. Luria
C/O Krass, Snow & Schmutter, Pc
419 Park Avenue
New York NY 10016

>> Nada, Exactly. These coops have competition now from new condos without the coop hassle.

The coop hassle is the least of the issues, IMO. In my view, with a 5% cost of capital/interest, at $16M plus $13K/mo, it’d cost $80K/mo, almost $1M/yr (pre-tax) to live in 1185 Park 16/17F. The place has a lot of compromises going on IMO. To each their own, but I’ve got better ways to blow $1M/yr.

Me too ; )

I chortled at "unclassic 8".

Thanks for all the responses. Further review on SE comps tells me UES co-ops are lucky to appreciate 1% per year. I just can't see buying into an "investment" where the entry price is artificially high because the Board sets the price. Lots of other people must agree because units are just sitting there.

Thoughts?

George,

It depends on what you are buying. At the high-end of coops (>$5mm), there is increasing competition from new condos and price decline in those prime UES coops has been the most from what I can tell. For the second floor 1185 Park Avenue listing, a comparable condo on low floor will cost you $4mm plus and it will not have this location with a courtyard and proximity to private schools. I think a more appropriate questions is whether <$3mm segment of prime UES coops priced at $1100-$1500 per sq ft will continue to go down. There aren't that many condo building at low absolute $ and low $ per sq ft in desirable prime locations.

<$3mm and $1100-$1500 per sq ft prime UES coop segment will continue to go down.

less than $3mm and $1100-$1500 per sq ft prime UES coops will continue to go down.

300_Mercer We're looking at a 1/1. Many of the prices look like they have not gone up much in 10 years, yet the Board doesn't seem to acknowledge that. I imagine after Covid not as many empty nesters are looking to move in from the suburbs so that takes away some of the demand. On the younger end people working from home probably need more space.

1/1 market is tight in prime UES as there is much less competition from new condos. But I have seen stuff trade east of Lex at good prices in post war coops.

Appreciate a few examples of what you are looking at, comps, alternatives, and what you think you want to pay?

Looking at Carnegie Hill. 1/1 at 1230 Park asking 595K. But when I run the numbers of comparable units appreciation in the building I think it's overpriced. Good building, solid management but prices seem flat. Great unit but it's been on the market for over a year, which also tells me it's overpriced.

How would you adjust the price vs 8A sale at $650k last year when the market was no better but 8A seems to be in much nicer condition? Also, what are your alternatives in terms of rentals and other units to buy?

8A seemed to be an outlier. That one still shocks me compared to the other 1/1 units in the building over the last decade. Real head scratcher. My alternative is that I don't live in NYC right now (although I grew up there) and was looking to move back. But I have to say, the whole co-op thing with artificial pricing is turning me off.

Since you are afraid of buying a coop (while this coop board seems to be fine with lower priced sales as well given the history of 1/1, and not really prime location) what would a condo cost you on UES?

Not afraid, just don't think it's a rational decision given the problem with an exit strategy. Since condos are out of my price range I'll probably look at renting if I return to NY.

Plenty of very nice/affordable co-ops between lex and 2nd Avenue.

https://streeteasy.com/building/360-east-72-street-new_york

Low maintenance, $375 per month for owner parking.

Purchasing smaller units in some of these buildings can be problematic because the boards tend to be stocked with owners from larger units and the Coops run around criteria which make much more sense for purchasers/owners of those.

GeorgeP, the asking price for 8A is very much in line with the SE’s index of same home resales across Manhattan, which is up 24% since late 2009. Their asking price is 26.5% higher than their 2009 purchase. Perhaps they should be somewhat lower because of a lack of renovation (some fraction of SE index’s constituents have undergone renovation), but it is within striking distance.

This is not to say anything about whether the price in 2009 or now is good / bad / otherwise, just that is is in the ballpark of market. The “1% per year” number is an average. More precisely, it’s 1.6% per year going back to 2005 according to the SE Index. But it doesn’t go in a line, so you should pay attention to the starting / ending points.

theburkhardtgroup Thanks for the tip about 360 East 72nd Street. The expenses are so much lower than other buildings that they almost look like a typo. Do you know why they are so much lower?

The maintenance is likely low because the building in at the corner of a good avenue and a good street and has big retail square footage. I assume that the coop owns and is renting out the space for the Morton Williams, Icon Parking and Chase branch. If those retail tenant rents cover a meaningful portion of the buildings expenses, then shareholder maintenance can be lower.

Indeed but the sales prices reflect the low maintenance for this vintage.

For example this one is $100k over the 1230 Park 1 bed for a lesser building. https://streeteasy.com/building/360-east-72-street-new_york/b511

That's correct WoodsidePaul, the building is the beneficiary of the commercial rents.

300_mercer So it sounds like one way or the other, the buyer is still paying. Only difference is upfront vs. monthly. Thanks for the feedback.

@georgeP, 360 does indeed receive commercial rents that provide $3.8mm of its $14.7mm revenues. However, its finances also include the forgiveness of a ~$500K PPP loan (which is not going to be repeatable) and a $30 million underlying mortgage which is due in four years. Some boards like to manage for low maintenance, because they know that's attractive to buyers, but that's not the only financial metric worth looking at. Refinancing (which is the way the board paid for the giant refacing project a decade ago "without raising maintenance") has its impacts too.

p.s. thanks again for the tip about the contact form on my website; it has been fixed.

ali r.
{upstairs realty}

Exactly. That is why I didn't think 1230 Park was a bad deal when you look at the other coop comps. Personally, I would worry more about the location on 1230 Park vs stringent coop as it is really the last block before public housing and the end of UES.

>> the expertise/special sauce of perfecting applications and managing boards is becoming devalued

The fact that there are people who make a living being "board whisperers" tells me everything I need to know about co-ops. For most homeowners, their home is their most valuable asset. Why would anyone want their biggest investment to be an asset that some group of self-important randos gets to control whether and to whom they can sell later? And that's putting aside the icky feeling I'd get living there, knowing these people are choosing who gets to be my neighbor (if I even "made the cut," that is). How sick! Imagine a suburban neighborhood where the existing owners get to choose who can buy the house down the block. Obviously rife with potential for racism and other abuses and just generally gives me the creeps. I can't understand why this even still a thing.

The bottom line is you pay a premium to live in what I call the Park Avenue corridor. For some buyers it's the right decision, it's where they want to park their hard-earned dollars and enjoy their lives. And that premium manifests in a number of different ways.

My point was there are many other fish in the sea when it comes to the Upper East Side whether it's 360 East 72nd Street, which happens to be a very well managed building by some pretty smart people. Or somewhere else.

Keith Burkhardt
TBG

300_Mercer I hear you about the 1/1 at 1230 Park but I wonder why it's been on the market (with a short break) since February 2021. Even in the arcane world of NYC co-ops, that seems long.

George, I can't say. Depends on how firm the seller is on the price and if they were hoping to sell to the neighbor.

I've heard the seller may be more flexible than the board on the price.

Yesterday George here (no relation). My views on coops are well known. Reflecting on the conversation above... it made sense to buy 1185 Park back when dad was a stockbroker at EF Hutton and the kids went to St Bernard's and Chapin. It was OK to tie up assets in a very illiquid piece of real estate bc dad would surely retire from EF Hutton in 20 years and the kids would go to boarding school when the house got cramped. Today dad could get transferred to London, mom has a job too, the kids might end up at Stuyvesant, and either parent's company could go bust tomorrow. Much better to have the flexibility of a condo or TH.

HI George, Well since you mentioned EF Hutton, I'm listening.

George, Welcome back. What discount would you want to get on a pre-war coop (50% down and stuffy board east of Lex) vs similar pre-war condo and vs new condo on UES? While there aren't that many pre-war condos on UES, there are a few making this comparison possible.

Needs Reno. Call it 1700 sq ft in listing parlance. $1000 per sq ft for 30% down coop. $1.775.
https://streeteasy.com/building/1230-park-avenue-new_york/12d. Park avenue view.

Substantially similar size. No sure of the views. Renovated but mid end ($450k including trouble). $2.75 for 1700 sq ft. Park Avenue view. $2.3mm. The other one at appx 25% discount.
https://streeteasy.com/building/1235-park-avenue-new_york/8c

Actually make reno $550k as they have through the wall units in 1235 park. Floors were not changed. So 20% discount min on a coop with 30% down. I would think it goes up 30%-40% as the $ price goes higher.

I think in many cases a co-op is fine, however a board that requires 50% down, maybe wants close to 1x purchase price liquid post close, that requires a special type of buyer. However at this price point I think that buyer, is going extinct. I mean really what's the point other than the prestige of saying you live on Park Avenue?

Keith
TBG

Keith, What discount would you put on the stuffy UES coops (50% down) vs comparable condos in $2-3mm classic 6 or 7 range?

I don't think what kind of discount is the right way to look at it. You're either a buyer who can carry something for the long haul even if you have to move, or you're not.

Purchasing in these buildings is a social decision. It's like buying a Ferrari, and you live in New York City... It's all flex ; )

@Keith: I would continue your sentence "...saying you live on Park Avenue.." by adding: "in a building that you were accepted in to." It's about the perceived exclusivity, in this case financial: "I can afford to put 50% or more down, tie it up long-term, and don't have to live adjacent to investor units pimped out on AirBnB". (shorthand for "I live like rich people"). Some people find this valuable.

It's like being a member of a club: There's a perceived social premium for being a member of the Knickerbocker Club over the University Club. Both are clubs. What's the big difference? I'm sure members of the Knickerbocker will tell you. (I don't belong to either.)

Aaron, I used to think what you are saying and it is certainly true for many buyers but market of stuffy coop is much more nuanced due to private schools and a lack of enough condo choices.

Separately, went to Piccola Cucina on 60th a couple of weeks back with some Italian friends from Sicily. Very nice.

The discussion of condo vs coop discount isn't one I can answer bc (1) I blew my liquid load in Nowhere during COVID and (2) I am not otherwise liquid bc I've tried up my capital in my business. I'm not going to set aside $2m or whatever and invest it in someone else's company (or God forbid their bonds) when I can invest in my own businesses. Which goes to a point made earlier - the type of buyer of these properties is a dying breed, along with EF Hutton stockbrokers.

PS, it's also a dying breed of ppl who want to brag about owning a coop on Park Ave. Better to be a little more discrete. If you want to show off wealthy, buy a place south of the highway in Southampton (through an LLC of course), a villa in St Barth's, or maybe a condo.

@300 -- I like Piccola Cucina - convenient to me, and good food, though it gets a little mobbed for my tastes.

(And yes, agreed, the stuffy coop market does have many other variables).

It's too crowded, nobody goes there. : ) -

Cucina's a very good spot
Some of the best restaurants in NYC are on 60th Street, from 5th Avenue to Lex

I'm still waiting to see what replaces Veau d'Or. The last time I talked with them, it was going to be something fairly traditional French, but somewhat updated. COVID clearly derailed the renovation plan, and perhaps the business itself. :(

The new steakhouse should be a nice addition as well, though I'm not sure 'steak' as a theme is still a thing, and that particular location seems to be a bit cursed.

Joey, Look at the fridge pix in this. It seems there is 2 foot space on top of fridge before the dropped ceilings. So the doors are mostly likely 8' tall and ceilings are most likely 11 foot as mentioned in several listings.
https://streeteasy.com/building/the-hit-factory/4e

Sorry, wrong thread.

The 1/1 I was looking at in 1230 Park has been pulled from SE. Don't know if it's been sold or just pulled. Is there any way to tell?

Ping the listing agents.

I have an UES coop, so I might be able to speak to the appeal. I have two elementary school aged kids that go to PS6, and there's not a ton of condo stock in the zone. Location is very convenient to work for my partner and me, plus I enjoy easy access to the park. I can deal with the neighborhood not being very trendy.

Was fortunate to get a coop with a board that has very liberal renovation policies. When I bought, I added central AC plus full size washer and dryer with external vent.