Reno approval prior to offer?

Bottom line you won't be able to get an absolute answer previous to closing.

However, is there a precedent for this change in another unit in your line? Does this building allow 'wet over dry', most don't.

Keith Burkhardt
TBG

There is some possibility of actually doing it if the closet and kitchen you are planning to flip are adjacent but moving kitchen is very hard due to the need to move gas line and plumbing.

However, a Coop board has no incentive to tell you anything above a reno before the architectural plans are submitted and reviewed by the coops engineer/architect. And that happens after you own the place.

For feasibility, you have to hire a professional and check with the super unless their is precedence like Keith mentioned.

Or bring it up at the interview. Be prepared to walk away from the building.

On first principles: Don't buy it. You wouldn't marry some twerp in the hopes that you'll be able to change a lifetime of bad habits once you've got the band on their finger, would you?

But, apartments can be more malleable than people. So make your brokers earn their commission: Your broker should contact the seller's broker and have them find out from the super what kinds of renovations have been done, what the general expectations are, where there are problem areas in the unit (immovable piping runs, structural considerations, etc.). A prepared broker is going to know the range of work that is acceptable, and the board's preferences. Then be prepared to hire a professional to come up with possible solutions to any restrictions/barriers that you have found out about. If it's reasonable, you could get a whispered 'probably ok' prior to closing.

If the apartment is in significant need of renovation, the board could be more amenable to a modernization / reconfiguration.

Be aware that a non-insignificant amount of Coops have universal bans on new "wet over dry" renovations.

"You wouldn't marry some twerp in the hopes that you'll be able to change a lifetime of bad habits once you've got the band on their finger, would you?"

Reminds me of a joke.......

Women marry men expecting them to "change" after they marry, but they dont.

Conversely, men marry women expecting them to stay the same, but after marriage, they dont.

:)

Poor Buffy was all in a dither about the upcoming wedding. She was so unsure of doing and saying all the right things during the complicated wedding service. She had, after all, been brought up around heathens. So she asked her friend Betsy for advice. Betsy’s had been a fancy New York City society wedding, with ring bearers, swags of flowers on the pews, and printed programs, so she certainly should have some wisdom to impart.

“I know you’re nervous Betsy, because it is scary, standing at the back of the church, with everybody staring at you the whole time, and all the commotion and stuff going on, but that walk is really quite simple. Just focus on three things, and block everything else from your mind: First, briefly look down once in a while as you’re walking, to make sure you don’t trip over your gown, or a lost ring bearer. Then, look straight ahead to the very front of the church, and concentrate on where you’re heading, then look to the side a little bit, up there, at your smiling soon to be husband. It will be really easy if you just concentrate on those three things.”

Betsy wasn’t sure, and lost some sleep the night before in worry, but she followed Betsy’s advice, and all went exactly as planned. As the bride passed by, however, the congregants closest to the aisle wondered for the future happiness of the groom, as Betsy, through clenched teeth could be heard to repeatedly mutter “Aisle. Altar. Him. Aisle. Altar. Him.”

Feh. Inadvertently mixed Buffy and Betsy's names, but you get the idea.

:D Thanks. The closests share a wall with bathroom fixtures - ie all the bathroom plumbing is on the other side of that shared wall. So putting in a sink and fridge might not count as wet over dry, I don't really know. Gas lines wouldn't be a problem as I'd probably go with an inversion cooktop.

Anyway, all the units I really like aren't currently for sale so rather than loving the one I'm with, I should probably hold out for Mr Right. And maybe that's a recipe for staying single :)

How does a sink (and presumably dishwasher) not count as wet over dry?

MTH needs to get real about NYC coops - portfolio financing, converting closet to kitchen etc.

Buy coop first and then get a job in NYC.

@300_mercer I admit to using this forum to test out ideas - even when only to be told it can't work.

For what it's worth, this is a sponsor unit. The broker tells me I could turn around and rent and she broker also manages properties.

@30yrs I guess it would be wet over dry but we're talking a few inches connecting kitchen sink/dw feed and drain to bathroom plumbing - but you're right, I should ask.

It is absolutely wet over dry, even by a few inches.

It's not "a few inches" because the entire room is the "wet" situation.

A few thoughts. First--I your best bet would be to have the selling broker reach out to the co-op's managing agent. This happens with some regularity in our building and even though the board would never approve outright anything without a full alteration application, we will say whether something like the situation you describe would be flat-out denied or whether it might be considered.

Some co-ops have relaxed (somewhat) the traditional no-wet-over-dry rule because of the newer waterproofing techniques available nowadays. So--if a proposed 'wet' area is, as you say, a 'few inches' into a dry zone it is possible a board might say yes with the caveat that the strictest waterproofing materials and methods are used.

Second--and I realize this is off the original topic--but please keep in mind that when you purchase a sponsor unit in a co-op, you would only obtain the right to rent it out (aka sponsor rights) if you do NOT EVER occupy the unit yourself. If at any time you take occupancy of the unit, you would lose any sponsor rights you may have purchased with the unit, and would be bound by the sublease rules of the co-op. Also--transferring sponsor rights to a new owner is NOT generally automatic, but rather something worked out within the contract between you and the seller.

Reason I mention this is because you said you want a kitchen you can work in, which suggests you plan to occupy the unit :-) Please make absolutely sure you understand the transfer process for sponsor rights and whether it would pertain to you and this unit. Your broker may not be giving you the most knowledgeable advice on this; an attorney would be your best bet.

I should clarify the third paragraph in my response above by saying '...you would only obtain the right to rent it out freely...'

Pinecone, I would think that the sponsor rights don't transfer with the sale of a single vacant unit. Otherwise, every one who buys from the sponsor will have sponsor rights. The transfer of sponsor right even for a block sale may be dictated by the offering plan.

Firstly, those rights are different depending on how the Offering Plan is written (Rockrose plans were more generous than most in conveying extra rights to those purchasing from them). Secondly, excess rights under some plans is extended to Holders of Unsold Shares. However in general to be designated a Holder of Unsold Shares (which can be single units) not only does the contract of sale, etc have to specifically designate the sale as such but the Sponsor has to guarantee future maintenance payments by the purchaser as part of their Sponsor obligations. A caveat is that since Coop Attorneys basically tell Boards they can do WTF they want and use the Business Judgement Rule to hand their hats on there are Coops who don't care about what's in their Offering Plans and if you don't like it you can spend 6 figures on legal fees and years of your life fighting.

@30yrs - Thank you that is very valuable information. If I were to make an offer - hard to know when you see a lot off-market places you like better - it sounds like the steps are (1) asking the seller's broker to contact the coop's managing agent and, if you decide to go forward based on what you hear (2) making a point of mentioning this to whatever lawyer I find so he can go over the contract and coop rules and history with an eye to that. This place is being marketed as an investment property so I'm pretty sure the owner is on board but the coop may not be.

As for living in the place - I suppose I could rent as is till I decided to move in rather than doing a big reno right away. I just want to make sure that's possible down the line. Decent counterspace and good light is important.

Bottom line: as @thebirkhardtgoup and @30years mention, there's risk no matter how you cut it. The place is completely unrenovated and a reno would only add value (thinking top-of-the-line finishes and a good architect/designer) but the coop might not see it that way.

funny conincidence: just learned a friend is in litigation over just such an issue right after having moved in and spending a ton of money on a high-end reno which included swimming-pool standard waterproofing. His downstairs neighbor who happens to be on the board is a world class fusspot, however.

>>Pinecone, I would think that the sponsor rights don't transfer with the sale of a single vacant unit. Otherwise, every one who buys from the sponsor will have sponsor rights. <<

@300 They don't. That was precisely my point. Buyer needs to be very careful if the broker is suggesting otherwise.

>>funny conincidence: just learned a friend is in litigation over just such an issue right after having moved in and spending a ton of money on a high-end reno which included swimming-pool standard waterproofing. His downstairs neighbor who happens to be on the board is a world class fusspot, however.<<

@MTH If the board approved the alteration I'm not sure why one outlying 'fusspot' is now creating an issue over it unless something in the renovation was done improperly and there are attendant leaks or other problems.

Here's what the listing says: ''Please contact us to discuss all the possibilities including purchasing as a Holder of Unsold Shares. Additional pricing if Sponsor Rights are transferred." and the broker was clear that I could rent it out right away as long as I didn't move in.

@pinecone - seriously doubt there are leaks. But you raise a good point: what is the neighbor's objection? I have the impression it's an elderly, WASPY board for whom any change is bad change but maybe it has merit, really don't know

In something like this, why not ask the sponsor to renovate as you like rather than speculate what is possible?
https://streeteasy.com/building/the-broadmoor-235-west-102-street-new_york/14l

Sponsor offering reno.
https://streeteasy.com/building/50-park-avenue-new_york/16b

Another one from the same sponsor.
https://streeteasy.com/building/317-west-87-street-new_york/8c

@300_mercer - Thanks for the ideas - why not indeed. Cheers

Throwing this in, I thought about buying an income property, tenant in place (coop). The seller was a broker that was also on the board, lived in a different apartment. Turns out the board "was not aware" this unit was being rented out although she had been renting in that apartment for several years. Seller said 'everybody likes her'. Tread carefully.

@stache - eesh - I hope that's the kind of thing a lawyer would catch in due diligence

I think people would be shocked at the amount of stuff many attorneys fail to catch in due diligence.

MTH, he did. The management company was awful and took forever to get back to him about things.

@stache - Close call! Glad you caught it prior to closing. The intricacies of the process are kind of bewildering. I would involve a broker but don't want to waste anyone's time till I've found something I'm definitely going to make an offer on.

@30yrs - Interesting. I have a reference from a friend who I hope will do a good job.

Great potential in the place. My head says it's made for someone in my situation but my heart isn't following.

@MTH: "I would involve a broker but don't want to waste anyone's time" -- I think this is a bit misguided. A good buyer's broker should be working with you well before any offer to help educate you on the ins & outs of real estate purchases in NYC, particularly for the 'special case' situations that you're exploring. That said, their enthusiasm is proportionate: they'll put much more time and enthusiasm into researching and overcoming the problems with getting you settled into the 3rd floor of 820 Fifth than they will for a $750k 1 br. You could always hire a broker on an hourly basis now to have them advise on specific questions.

MTH,
If you need someone to bounce things off of in the meantime feel free to contact me.

>>Great potential in the place. My head says it's made for someone in my situation but my heart isn't following<<

In my experience it is important to listen to this.

Ask @ the Broadmoor has fallen 36% in the last 10 weeks -- and it's not in the stratospheric ultralux tier, either, where volatility and wishful thinking seems most prominent. Wow. ($525K -> $335K)

@RichardBerg - I know - kind of crazy!

@Aaron2 - wouldn't even know what to ask.

@pinecone - all the best places - or the ones that feel like a match - are off the market. Maybe I've just got to be patient

Our Co-Op doesn't allow wet-over-dry , or laundry machines .... but some shareholders do it anyway.

They are also usually the shareholders to bring in "service" dogs for their mental illnesses

Go Figure

Well, they’re staying true to form: antisocial personality disorder is a mental illness.

Those shareholders who don't want to follow rules or contribute a minute of their time to running the building are often the first to blame Board Members for mismanagement. So then they run and oust them and spend all their time self dealing and ignoring the real issues the building has.

Also, not allowing W/D these days is practically asking for it to be done against the rules. Especially since in most buildings which don't allow them at least one Board Member has them anyway.