long in the tooth

Place your guesses on the closing price of this one:

https://streeteasy.com/sale/1564003

The owner on this one first tried selling 12 years ago, in 2012. After 2 unsuccessful years (closing records in 2013 are to a related-party LLC with the same address), she rented for 5 years 2014-2019. Then, it came back on the market in 2019 and has been sitting there for 5 years. Current ask is 38% less than the initial ask in 2019 (and 2012).

Interesting note, the owner grew up in this house:

"Located in the heart of Greenwich Village, 80 Washington Place is an extraordinary townhome that has been lovingly restored and converted into a single-family residence by William Rainero, a passionate developer who grew up in the house."

And previously owned (until 1927) by John Philip Sousa and his wife, then by a descendant until 1970.

I wonder what the current owners paid for it?

$16.5-17.5mm. 50% of fully below ground space - appx 7k square foot. Very non-standard not brand new but nice reno. $2400-2500 per sq ft.

If I had the money and the need for such large space, I would like it very much including proximity to the park with its troubled north-west corner.

>> I wonder what the current owners paid for it?

The current owners bought it in 1972, so not much whatever it was. The husband passed in 1990, but the wife is still with us at age 99!

That said, the property has become a sad tale of woe. The property was put into a trust and/or LLC, with the wife as trustee but with the son eventually calling the shots. The son renovated and put the property up for sale in 2012:

https://www.caandesign.com/80-washington-place-greenwich-village-by-william-rainero/

Along the way, he piled up mortgages that added up to more than $20m in liabilities by 2021:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-08-22/posh-nyc-townhouse-once-rented-by-travis-scott-enters-bankruptcy

And foreclosure by 2023. I.e., the current sale seems to be from the lender (?).

Where did the money go? I haven’t traced it, perhaps some went into the renovation. But it also kinda seems like some capital was used to lever the son into other deals, including one that went very south to the tune of $5-7M:

https://therealdeal.com/new-york/2023/04/26/bankruptcy-battle-for-greenwich-village-dev-site/

Son did seller financing on another property to a buyer that went belly-up, with said financing being junior in the debt stack and mostly or fully wiped out.

>> $16.5-17.5mm. 50% of fully below ground space - appx 7k square foot. Very non-standard not brand new but nice reno. $2400-2500 per sq ft.

I’ll take $17.5m+.

What? Nada more bullish that me!!! That would be a first but given about $20mm liability and bank sale, you are most likely right.

https://streeteasy.com/sale/1551613

>> What? Nada more bullish that me!!!

I’m just guessing where the market will clear, not projecting into the future. But if a $32m ask in 2012 down to _only_ a $17.5M sale in 2024 makes me the bull, yikes. At least there was a 5-year reprieve of renting to Travis Scott (if I read the gossip columns correctly).

I am at $2500 per sq ft base price for full renovated townhouse properties in the village factoring in 25-50% of fully below ground space and 100% of more than 50% above ground space. Clearly there is a premium to that price for perfection and precise location within village. Can I see $19mm for that place? Possible but unlikely as it has been on the market for a while at that price and reno while nice is not every one's cup of tea.

$18,250,000

Great detective work! Like many other properties, you can ask anything you like. Certainly makes an interesting tale of woe. Or how to screw up what could have have been a reasonable return!

> At least there was a 5-year reprieve of renting to Travis Scott

I wonder if high profile tenants like this are actually good to have? On the one hand they should have the money/credit to be good for it. But.. the kind of trouble a 20-something tenant with $10Ms at their disposal could get up to.

I'm sure at this level of wealth they have a pretty good lawyer/negotiator at their disposal. Even if you get good lease terms out of them, you may have lots of lifestyle/property damage issues to contend with.

I lived next to a musician who is like 1/10th to 1/5th a Travis Scott in fame/wealth. The problems were of the hard partying and interactions with law enforcement variety.

One possibility on price is that the bank just put a fixed price and the buyer had to pay ask as price cuts were already taken. For such properties, the bid-offer is pretty wide.

Haha steve123 -- I once represented the kid of a very big Hollywood star -- kid was straight out of college, looking for a rental.

Kid had a job, but it didn't pay $40x rent, so Hollywood star offered to guarantee. Kid was like, "oh, that makes everything easy, right?" And I'm like, "no, guarantors that aren't in the Tri-State are tough to pursue, and specifically, *nobody's* got the firepower to sue your parent."

(Fortunately, the kid was lovely on their own merits and we talked the landlord of *the perfect place* into the fact that it would be fine -- which it was.
But I agree with your point that sometimes well-funded people present risks that are tough to defend against!)

ali r.
{upstairs realty}

Nada, what do I get if it ends in $16.5-17.5 range above? What if hit the middle exactly - a rare possibility?

The same thing I got for hitting 73 Washington dead on the nose.

Hollywooders don't need to be in the Post over unpaid rent of their kid.

Nor do they want to forever keep assets out of New York State in order to avoid judgments.

>> Nada, what do I get if it ends in $16.5-17.5 range above? What if hit the middle exactly - a rare possibility?

Bragging rights for having bested inonada yet again.

Looking at mortgage records, there was a shared mortgage with this property. The speculation on this one turned out poorly, buying for $6.2M in 2013 and selling for $4.1M in 2022:

https://streeteasy.com/building/345meatpacking-condominium/phb

That’s a far cry from the $8.5M he attempted to flip it for in 2015.

Because it lost the bird's eye view of the transsexual streetwalkers outside Izzy's Bagels?

Because it lost the bird's eye view of the transsexual streetwalkers outside Izzy's Bagels?

Ha. Only wish I were to be renting at sub 1.5% cap rate.

"Bragging rights for having bested inonada yet again."

I like to think of myself as a responsible housesitter for the rich & famous. Somebody’s gotta keep the place in good condition between sales.

I guess it's a good thing that real estate agents aren't rated based on their track record for profitable trades. Based on some of these sales that nada posts, It would appear the biggest agents at the largest firms have some of the worst records?

Keith, Aren't Brokers (agents) just facilitators of transactions. Not financial advisors. Big ones are just better salepeople for sellers if becoming big has some element of doing the best for their clients.

I do wonder about the whole ecosystem. This poor guy probably lost all $3m of his equity on the 345 W14th PHB transaction, to say nothing of 10 years of opportunity cost. And the passed-down family fortune in the townhouse. Perhaps there’s a pile of cash elsewhere, but it sure doesn’t seem to be given the 2019 loan from non-bank entities at 6.25%.

It’s one thing when rich people lose a few million here and there. But then you get this speculative, leveraged craziness where fortunes are made and lost. Can the brokers control the prices? Doubtful. Do they play a part in encouraging the speculative instincts of the buyers? I imagine so, especially to the right audience.

Of course. “Broker” arranges the meeting of buyer and sellers. Suitability is not a criteria for real estate brokers/agents.

Agree and that's what I've always said. However, as I've said many times here, I think the listing agent has very little to do with the final sales price or the quickness of a sale. I think it's about 75% getting the price right, having a marketable property, a favorable marketplace, etc. For the most part, a listing agent has very little interaction with a buyer. If anybody's doing any real salesmanship, that's coming from the buy side agent who has the ear of the buyer. Many times the person showing the apartment, especially at a big team, is some Junior member of the team. @300 I remember you and I disagreeing on this point, you were somehow convinced that a big named agent at a big firm could add value. I think through experience you've seen this wasn't necessarily the case. That you could do exactly what they do, and save yourself 2.5 to 3%. You're welcome ; )

I agree but I also see ultra-luxury new developments in the past being sold at crazy high prices. So there has to be something to do with the selling agent. For most transactions especially resale, it likely does not matter as long as the property is being presented well - pictures, clean-up, potentially staging, property knowledge.

On W14th, keep in mind that was just coming away from the financial crisis, the RE market was starting a new round of "excelsior," particularly for meat packing area and particularly for new development condos which had a near 5 year break of no new downtown developments at all.

2013 was well timed to purchase but greed was likely the culprit in not executing a sale thru to 18/19. And then the world/market hiccupped again.

On a side note, I cant decide if South Florida is 2013 or 2017 right now

I do think there must be a degree of egging on clients who are otherwise already inclined to believe something, and this is probably most effective at ultra-lux clients.

Of course. Basic license issues by NYS is called "Licensed Real Estate Sales Person". Higher up "Broker". The job it to sell with a lot of safegurads against discrimination and some safeguard about disclosures on property itself. Finding value is not a part of required qualification even though comps are routinely provided by the brokers as a service. More than that there are "Appraisers" which is also a Licensed Profession.

https://dos.ny.gov/real-estate-salesperson

https://dos.ny.gov/real-estate-appraiser

Keith,
While won't disagree with what you presented as accurately presenting the state of how business is executed currently, it is my personal belief this represents a significant reduction in services to what buyers and sellers used to receive before the current way of doing things came into fashion. I think the only ones who benefit are the large firms and big team leaders. Especially as you go up in... I'm not sure I'd just say price... but something I can't enunciate quite clearly now, having and expert in the property actually be the one who shows it and tells the right story will actually increase the price and decrease the showing time. This is why there a still a number (but not nearly what it used to be) of excellent brokers who are experts in niches and outperform the big firms/big teams in certain aspects. In many industries the highest paid and most important employees are the salespeople because they are the rainmakers. And they are far from equals performance wise. With the big firms/teams often the only "sales" which goes on is listing/buyer acquisition. But getting a listing is just a small piece of selling a home. The presentation to potential buyers can make all the divine the world. And most of the time the buyers agent just isn't capable of making the best presentation. Not because they are a bad agent, they just don't know enough about the property. A talented listing agent will give interesting anecdotes about the neighborhood, the block and even the building. They will point out interesting quirks and features of the property (watch some Doug Demuro videos). And a host of other things. All that is lost when you have some assistance who all they know is the price and "here's the master bedroom." And odds are that there will never be another shot at face to face with the buyer because it's not their buyer, but the buyer's agents buyer. So your only chance to sell them is the first time they see the unit.

And I know a bunch of you are going to have a knee jerk reaction against this, but explain why Gil Neary at my firm consistently sells as many units at Chelsea Gardens as everyone else combined because he's lived in the building for 40 years, knows everything about it, and is a fan whose love and excitement shows and is contagious to buyers.

Because I rent and never enlist the services of “my own” broker, I deal with listing agents almost exclusively. For the most part, they are very knowledgeable. In some cases, they might be missing a piece of color I would have thought they should know. But the most entertaining to me are the ones who are abysmal at their jobs. Those tend to be rare but become quite memorable. I recall one who knew nothing about the property and had zero interpersonal skills. I kinda wanted to tell her that she should find another line of work, as she had neither skill nor passion in this field. But the my generous nature took over and said “she’s probably just having a tough day in her life”.

Yeah, there are plenty of good people out there, and like you pointed out, I think at the higher end brokers take a bit more interest in the properties they're representing.

No doubt 30, if you've happily lived in a building for 40 years, you're going to be able to represent it very enthusiastically and knowledgeably.

I personally just set out to do something different. Selfishly, not just for our clients but also for me. I just needed a fresh approach to real estate after over 30 years toiling away. Our model might not be for everyone, but we did find an audience that appreciates the level of transparency and service we provide along with the financial rewards.

Keith Burkhardt
TBG

Everyone is entitled to their own models. But IF anyone's model results is the buyer consistently getting shown units by "showers" (my understanding is these can be unlicensed wannabe salespeople who can basically only quote the price) rather than the listing agent themselves, it is my opinion both the buyer and seller are getting lower level of service than they should be.

I feel that the falloff in service you're seeing, 30, is on the buyer's side too. Buyers get taken out -- and I've been guilty of this too -- before they're fully pre-qualified, and so it isn't even that the buyer's agent doesn't know enough about the property, but they also don't know enough about their clients.

Example: I'm the listing agent on a property that doesn't allow pieds-à-terre, and buyer's agent shows up with a European buyer who wants a pied-à-terre for a couple of years to test out New York. I say to buyer's agent, "hey, why did you make me come down and show a 'no pied-à-terre listing?' and she says, 'I didn't realize, he just came in from the airport."

You have to be licensed to show properties. One person on my team who was born and raised in New York, has a degree in accounting and has 20+ years in real estate experience. He's also an associate broker . The other agent on my team has a total of about 20 years of residential real estate experience in New York City in both sales and corporate relocation. She also owns and operates a number of Airbnb properties internationally.

There are plenty of unlicensed people showing units using the English word. Maybe they aren't "showing" apartments as defined, but they are the ones opening the door and giving access to the unit to the buyer's broker. I refuse to get bogged down in semantics when here is the point which matters:
They are the only person from the listing broker firm present.

Keith,
When you represent buyers who goes along with them to view the properties?

Perhaps what I'm missing is you're saying that unlicensed assistants routinely open doors, show property, Even though it's against dos regulations?

Either Christian who is an associate broker or Regina who is a licensed sales agent.

https://dos.ny.gov/unlicensed-real-estate-assistants

Whether this is kosher or not in my experience it's pretty well accepted that unlicensed assistants can open the door to let buyers agents in. Also in my experience it's fairly prevalent. But also irrelevant. Whether the simpleton is licensed or not, what both the buyer and seller aren't getting is the show. The real professional sales presentation which in my opinion makes all the difference in the world when it comes to closing the deal.

And I'm guessing most of the posters on this forum who think brokers are useless just don't get how valuable a tip notch sales pitch can be. Regardless of seeing the results of Matt Damon and

Tom Brady pitching crypto.

Generally when I've dealt with the Burkhardt Group (which isn't often, because I do fairly "low-volume" and don't cross paths with any one firm or term very often), buyers come to see properties by themselves, and then Keith or Christian follows up via email afterwards if there's interest. This is the way a lot of brokers work nowadays, though there's still a significant minority of brokers who want to be with their clients at every showing.

The danger, of course, is that you spend that time educating the client, taking them partway down the path to purchase, helping them frame their choices, and then for whatever reason they purchase without you and that becomes uncompensated time and service. I do envy lawyers in that one respect; almost everything they do, they get paid for.

Ali,
So let's say the buyer sees it "by themselves" (i.e. without buyer's agent). And the listing agent has some green assistant do the showing.

So who is doing the "selling"?

This is my point about the new way of doing things. I'm willing to bet the above scenario isn't rare. And are either the buyer or the seller really being served?

“The map is not the territory”
Alfred Korzybski.

There is a limit to the advice a buyer's broker can give off the listing which is not equal to actually being in the unit with the buyer. They also don't see the body language or hear the subtle comments as the buyer walks through. Anyone who has actually shown properties knows what you get when you ask buyers what specifically they liked or didn't like about some property they saw. Most of the time they can't properly enunciate it. But when you see a buyer squint when looking at something (or 1,000 other tells) you know what turned them off or on.

Similarly, a listing agent can put all the BS prose in the world in the listing description, but it's not the same as selling in person. The great sales trainer Zig Ziglar says:
"Every buyer makes the purchase decision for the same reason. Do you know what that reason is? THEIR reason."

In other words, rather than a canned presentation you need to ascertain what the buyer is looking for before you make your pitch. So a listing description isn't going to do it. And a green shower/assistant isn't going to do it. A seasoned showing agent has 1,000 slightly different pitches depending on what they are hearing/seeing from the buyer, and it may not even be a conscious decision tree.

We accompany buyers to all private showings unless we're double booked. That's the main reason I have three people on my team. We don't accompany them to open houses, unless they request. I actually have three people on my team, two of them their main job is showing and scheduling. Christian mostly handles board package preparation, handles all of our listings and specializes in townhouses since he has a construction background as well.

We close between 40 to 75 plus deals per year, so we're actively working with quite a number more buyers at any given time. The last 5 months has been the slowest I can remember since starting about 14 years ago.

We have a very dedicated base of clients, very good relations with a few banks, Google and Facebook. Like most brokers these days, pretty much all of our business comes from referrals. I really don't count my posts on StreetEasy as advertising, seems to be very few people outside of the core group on here. Other than this I've never spent more than $200 on advertising, and that was just in the beginning messing around with Google AdWords.

Works for us, we've built a nice group of clients over the years. And of course, like any business, if they don't like what we have to offer, there's plenty of other options in New York City for brokerage services.

Keith Burkhardt
TBG

https://nypost.com/2024/02/15/real-estate/nyc-townhouse-finally-sells-after-12-years-on-the-market/