Kitchen design company?

My personal experience:

First renovation in NY, I went with a kitchen and bath design company. I very much liked both the kitchen and the bath they designed, but project management was severely lacking, as was the process of getting the renovation approved. With respect to getting the renovation approved, when you don't have your own architect interfacing with the coop's architect, everything takes twice as long, so what you think you are saving in architect fees just goes to the building's architect with multiple rounds of review. We were pleased with outcome, but the project took up an enormous amount of my time and energy.

Second renovation: Hired an architect who designed a beautiful kitchen and bathrooms; had no conflict of interest regarding my choice of materials; managed the entire project. We were pleased with the outcome, and the process was glorious with a professional whose interests were aligned with ours overseeing the entire project. We never had to speak with the building's architect or the superintendent. Project was approved by the building architect (same one as our first project) on the first submission so our architect fees to the building were in the hundreds rather than the thousands. And the second project was significantly more involved because we moved walls and did gas work. The architect made sure all permits were properly closed and the entire project was closed out with the DOB.

Conclusion: Based on my personal experience, the kitchen design company was not necessary.

@mcr - Thanks! That is very helpful. And you have probably saved me a bucketload of money.

Congrats, MTH!

Congrats!

Cheers ; ) So looking forward to joining your ranks in 2 or 3 yrs

My kitchen is small, and there are very few choices as to what appliances go where. I used an architect for the apartment reno, and he coordinated with the design people at Home Depot who, based on his drawings, and specs for the sink, fittings, and appliances put together the actual cabinet order (pullout drawers, overhead cupboards, etc.) with the cabinet features and finishes I wanted. I didn't like any of the HD options for drawer/cabinet pulls, so ordered them myself, and it was all installed by HD and contractor staff (appliances were from a different source). The architect and contractor had worked together for a while, so it was straightforward for them to schedule and coordinate the work with HD and appliance installation. If your architect isn't going to spec a full kitchen, then he at least needs to provide measured drawings and help coordinate w/ your kitchen provider.

MTH, Congrats on your new home. For a small kitchen your choices are limited. One way you can do it cheaply is draw out an area and dimensions of the kitchen, mark your plumbing and gas stove location. After that use Ikea kitchen planner online and whatever appliances and cabinets they offer. I believe Ikea may even offer you design service for a fee of a few hundred. The key is to know your plumbing and gas location existing or where you would like to move it. Moving plumbing and gas stove is a can of worms which may require DOB filing.

I've seen quite a few absolutely horrendous kitchens designed by "professionals."

Take this with a grain of salt, but after designing and building close to 100 kitchens I believe I can do better than the majority of "kitchen designers" myself.

But I'll add that if an architect spent the amount of time I did pouring over the smallest details to get the kitchen design perfect it would be very expensive. I spent thousands of $ worth of time on kitchen designs. So to answer your question:
If the kitchen designer works for the place you are buying your kitchen cabinets, and will keep redoing the kitchen plan over and over again until they come up with something you like, I don't think the architect will do that without charging you for the hours.

Also, in my experience the smaller the kitchen the more it pays to go full custom where you can get cabinets in absolutely any dimensions you want.

"...key is to know your plumbing and gas location existing or where you would like to move it..."

And electrical! (and whether it's 110 or 220 - though it is unlikely to have 220 available unless it's modern construction).

+ what 30 said. I used HD because it was a decent trade off in quality (better than Ikea, less than full custom), and the designer at HD came up with a few options, all taking into account the oddities in measurements and locations that the architect provided. The cabinets are now 12+ years old, and everything works as well as it did the day it went in.

This is all very helpful. It's hard to look into each option from overseas, unfortunately. But I'd never thought of going through a big supply place so will mention it to the architect who is pretty experienced. DOB is definitely a challenge since it's an elevator building and that brings ADA regulations (compliance or accessibility, I guess there are two kinds of standards, one more stringent than the other) into force. That said, the building itself is not ADA accessible. The elevator probably isn't either. And the kitchen & bathroom never will be - there just isn't enough space between them. So it's kind of crazy. The architect will make my case (I want to make a small and non-compliant bathroom smaller). He said to have a plan b just in case so I'm mulling over the options. There aren't many.

@30 let me know if you have someone someone in mind. I could look into that, too. For the architect, he gave me the option of hourly or a flat price and I chose the flat price with the understanding that if it turns into a more protracted process (eg let's say I undertake to challenge a 'no' from the DOB), he'll add those hours to the total.

Re the building: there's a flight of 7 steps up to get into the vesibule. And the elevator carriage measures about 48' x 35'. The door into my apartment measures 31' across at its narrowest point. It's possible the DOB looks at all that and says 'Yeah, but federal guidelines state all elevator buildings...' but it's worth a try.

Given the rate they're going in DC, maybe we should wait a few weeks. There may not be any more ADA regulations. Or DOB. Or people with disabilities.

The final solution.

MTH, It is best not to change the layout of bathroom and kitchen for DOB approvals - essentially location of plumbing fixtures from DOB point of view. Then you wouldn't need DOB approvals for ADA compliance. Even if the building is not ADA compliant, they can and will insist on ADA compliant bathroom if you redo the layout.

Little close to home, stache.

@300 - thank you. Depends, if by layout you mean the shape of the room, that would change. The point of the whole thing is to take a bite out of the bathoom to create a niche for a kitchen facing fridge and the erection of sheetrock walls around it so it's separate from the bathroom. But if you you mean the placement of fixtures, those could remain the same. The bathroom would be smaller, the kitchen slightly bigger with the addition of the niche. The orientation of the bathroom sink - the direction you're facing when standing in front of it - might change. The tap would be on the left side of the basin. A little odd but not unworkable. So fixtures would be in the same footprint they occupy now but with a modified floorplan. What do you think?

Gray zone from DOB point of view unless you don't declare taking a bit out of bathroom in DOB plans with fixtures remaining where they are. Assuming self cert by the Architect.

bit= bite

Hmm - I don't know how to bring that up with him. He has said all along this would require DOB approval. But I can mention it (gently)

He is convinced it's not a gray area and that he (or maybe the coop?) could get in trouble for any infringement. We're demolishing part of a wall and erecting another around the fridge.

He works for you. One option is the plan doesn't show the drywall and you put it up later or shows existing wall and you remove it later (you are not creating an illegal bedroom so it is just to get around silliness of the DOB code for ADA compliance). Practicality is far more important that desire when dealing with DOB.

So all the DOB really cares about is the placement of fixtures - toilet, bath/shower, sink? I *would* be replacing a tub with a shower stall but it would still be over the exisiting footprint - only the orientation of the drain would change. I'll see if I can talk him around.

No. They care that if you change the layout, it has to be code compliant which has very specific bathroom configuration choices. If you renovate with fixture locations and walls in place, they really don't have much of a say as your bathroom is grand-fathered to whateven code it was built to. Tub replacement with shower stall shouldn't matter I believe but your achitect would know.

Hard no from the architect. Makes it sound like he could place his licence in jeopardy for not showing the drywall partition and then erecting it later.

It is upto you. If you have to have a partition which is just a few feet wide (you can install a removable one if you are stickler for following rules), you can create one after the sign-off by DOB and architect. Your architect doesn't control what you do after his sign-off especially when it is a tiny partition. I get a sense that you may not be respecting the rule with DOB that don't change any thing unless you must as in creating a bedroom etc.

The idea is to free up counter space in the adjoining kitchen by replacing a tub with a shower stall. The space freed up by tub removal can be used to carve a kitchen facing nook into the bathroom to house a 24'' wide fridge. Removing the fridge from that side of the kitchen along with a full 4 burner stove/oven, replacing it with a two burner induction cooktop would yield about 45' of counter space (minus the cooktop).

I might try another tack: asking for approval by arguing that by replacing a tub with a shower pan and a hinged bathroom door (which, when open, renders the bathroom facilities completely inaccessible to someone in a wheelchair) with a pocket door or maybe two bifold doors on either side of the bathroom doorway or even an accordion door results in a bathroom that, while it will never be fully ADA compliant no matter how it is configured, is a bit closer to ADA compliant in a completely ADA inaccessible building.

Honestly, this is how people change political parties and end up voting for 'burn it to the ground' ideologues. Unaccountable, 6-figure salary bureaucrats with generous benefits and gold-plated job security making what might look like ideological (but most likely just plain complascent and ill considered) decisions about things impact the daily lives of those of us who have to hustle for a living. The regulations themselves are poorly conceived and the people who decide how they'll be applied are out to lunch. I'll never vote for someone whose answer is to raze the entire edifice of state administration, but I can see how some people are moved to do so.

End of rant

I do have a plan B which involves replacing the stove and standing fridge with a 36' undercounter two drawer fridge and using the lower half of a closet in the 'entry' area (such as it is) to house a separate half freezer. If it proves impossible to install a two burner induction cooktop on top of the undercounter fridge, I'll make do with a freestanding, plug-in two burner induction cooktop. I'm not crazy about drawer fridges where eveything has to lay flat but it's the kind of place they are built for.

MTH,

You will be opening a can of worms by requesting DOB approval for reducing the size of bathroom. I assume you have adequate power supply for induction stove. Most apartments don't. DOB rules should be more accomodative indeed but first there are tough rules as any one who can own an apartment is considered rich enough to comply (that is why you see huge bathrooms with turning circle in small apartments) and then there is interpretation of those rule by DOB plan examiner who are not paid well and don't have incentive to deviate from DOB rules whatsoever.

There are some 2-burner countertop induction tops which run off 110v, but check carefully as they may draw higher amperage than the typical 15A circuit available. Built-ins, even the 2-burners, are more likely to be 220v. The other problem this could create down the line is that you then have a kitchen without a built-in stove, which old-school appraisers might balk at (although appliances are not required under FHA guidelines (only requires a 'stove hookup').

Thanks - the architect said he would look into electrical capacity.

Again, I brought up the idea of self certifying. I would be happy if he did. But he made it sound like it is something they care a lot about and basically said (politely) that if that's what I wanted to do I could look elsewhere for an architect.

I consider myself enough of a person of the world to know there things - minor infractions, victimless crimes - that administrations the world over turn a blind eye to - smoking pot, loitering, going 70 in a 65mph speed zone - because they have much bigger fish to fry. How many undocumented workers live happily in the US? Millions. And they don't hurt anyone. And are actually productive members of socity. But they're illegal. That's how I see this. It might be an infraction but who is suffering as a result?

I wonder if idealism has spawned more problems than it has solved over the years.

A few Redditors suggest hiring a good expiditor. Or even two.

MTH, You may find more peace if you accept your perception of unfairness or unreasonableness of DOB rules in a multi-family building. You heard from your architect, just check with another one. Or do illegal renovation. Expeditors know nothing besides filing procedures.

If I knew the system better and how it works, I might be more open to doing it on the low. I have no sense of the odds of detection. Even 1 in 10 is too high for me, personally. 1 in 1000 and, sure, you're talking.

Also: I'm not here most of the time to manage things. I am new to the building. I don't know my neighbors. I don't know the board.

My objection is not ethical. It would be a code infraction (to an inapplicable situation) with no victims, no one suffering as a result. It's just probablility.

And I'd have to look for a new architect with no leads.

MTH, From what I have seen, studio offer a limited degree of freedom when it comes to bathrooms and plumbing for the kitchen without major expense and time committment (DOB approval, building approval etc). While in place reno wouldn't give you the utility you like, it will save you a lot of uncertainty, angst, and cost.

The big problem pops up when you want to sell. You have a property that is not up to code and you have to either alter it back or take a hit on price. This happens a lot in Queens.

Makes sense and thanks for helping me think it through. Will give DOB approval a whirl, resort to plan B - a 36'' undercounter sub-zero - if the answer is no and will have to find a place for a smaller freezer - probably the bottom half of a closet.

Good luck MTH. You many want to consider a full sized fridge (say 30", Miele has a very nice model much cheaper than what subzero would cost you) right outside of kitchen. Moving the fridge location doesn't need approvals. You can search on AJ Madison.

Thanks, 300. Yeah, the architect, pessimistic on DOB approval, was encouraging me to do just that - take out one of the two closets to install the fridge. It's certainly the easiest and cheapest way to extend counter space and preserve decent fridge volume. But that takes me from +/- 7sf of closet space to ~3.5 (unless there's space above the closets - we're undertaking probes). I can appreciate less is more as much as the next guy but 3.5 sq of cloest space is pushing it. So...I've been contemplating some form of wardrobe column near the entry.

BTW: Looking online (HomeDepot) I found a 37'', two drawer undercounter fridge by Summit with about the same and even more capacity than the Sum-Zero for 2/3s the price. But reviews of their products (made in the Bronx?) are iffy.

I'm no expert but check to make sure your freezer has some kind of reliable pan system in case of leaks or drips. Maybe a ceramic tile floor underneath?