Dear Rufus ...

sticky,

i have said many times that i'm currently looking at apartments in Chicago. My lease expires in December, so i'll most likely move then.

I've been living in the city for about 4 years now. First year, i lived in murray hill, and the past 3 in upper west side.

I see ... Murray Hill and UWS ... both neighborhoods with "luxury hi-rises" right?

i live in a luxury high-rise currently, in the west 60's.

but yeah, chicago does have better residential buildings, and are a lot cheaper to boot.

Upper West Side below 96th Street is pretty nice. Maybe not the most convenient location if you work in Lower Manhattan, but I've never heard anyone say they hate the Upper West Side.

I'll have to take a trip out to Chicago to be fair, but I have a hard time accepting that it's a world-class city. Maybe you're looking to downsize to something not quite so busy?

guy, the fact that you have to go on an anonymous board to (a) explain in unwarranted detail why you want to move from new york to a secondary city and (b) why new york real estate will tank when you're a renter shows you really wish you didn't have to leave.

No one has to explain to their friends why they leave Chicago for new york. its self-evident. peace be with you on your journey.

totallyanonymous, you sound like an ignorant fool. my building is a condo, not a rental. i'm leasing it out from the owner. and it is one of the nicer buildings in the city, so lack of money isn't the issue here.

you last paragraph is asinine. people move cities for different reasons. my friends in Chicago think people are nuts for wanting to live in NYC. so leaving Chicago for NYC is by no means "self-evident."

sticky, Chicago is a world-class city, but it's clean and modern. just go visit, and you'll see what i'm talking about.

I'm going to Chicago to visit friends this weekend. Never been for pleasure before, so I'll see how it compares.

Chicago is a nice city - I'm not going to deny that. I see some of the point about architecture, buildings are set back from the streets more so you can see what they look like. But that's part of the problem ... the "luxury hirises" seem almost isolated. Things are more spread out, and you lose that vibrant urban feeling you have in NYC. Also, the winters are brutal - much worse than NYC - and in the summers, there are fewer places to go, although you do have Lake Michigan right there (admittedly this is nice, but I prefer the ocean). There are some decent restaurants, but you just can't top NYC for diversity of offerings. There are some decent bars but the lounge scene seems a bit forced. Crime is worse ...

On the whole, to me, if Chicago weren't cheaper, I don't see why anybody would rather live there instead of NYC.

xellam, if your friends know what they are doing, you'll have a blast!

kspeak, the winters are bad, but the summers are a lot better than NYC: less humid overall. How are there fewer places to go during summer? Chicago during summer is crazy; street festivals, lollapalooza, people hanging out on lake michigan, cubs games, etc.

the lounge scene in Chicago is awesome. i prefer it to NYC's overhyped scene.

if you want to get away - and even if you love a place, sometimes you want to get away - there aren't a lot of great trips to make within 2-3 hour drives

"totallyanonymous, you sound like an ignorant fool. my building is a condo, not a rental. i'm leasing it out from the owner. and it is one of the nicer buildings in the city, so lack of money isn't the issue here."

What I said, guy, is that you are a renter, which you are. Whether you are renting out from a "rental" building or from a condo does that change that fact, i.e. you pay "rent" to the "owner". I think the same concept would apply even in Chicago, genius.

> Chicago during summer is crazy; street festivals, lollapalooza, people hanging out on lake michigan,
> cubs games, etc.

Change the name of the body of water, and make it some other team that didn't win the world series for a while, and you realize you've pretty much described every third-tier city in America?

So, Chicago is now Kansas City, Cleveland, Baltimore... certainly moving up in this world!

> the lounge scene in Chicago is awesome. i prefer it to NYC's overhyped scene.

Yes, apparently NYC dones't have enough dockers for Rufus...

nyc10022, Bungalow 8 owner, Amy Sacco, recently said in an interview that NYC's nightlife has gotten mediocre. She said it's not even worth going out anymore. I'll trust her assessment over yours.

And she just moved to Chicago, right?

You know, if someone could afford to live anywhere, and just chose to move to a new city, they'd be happy and move on. They'd be posting on the new city's board.

Instead, the person is posting on the OLD city's board.

To me, that is someone who CLEARLY didn't have a choice. If it was their choice to move to Chicago, they'd be happy about it. Instead, they are clearly bitter, and trying to explain how it was what they "meant" to do... ala Pee Wee Herman.

Tell me this isn't the biggest case of sour grapes in a while...

I like Chicago, to visit, for about three days. NYC is pissing me off these days, but I don't know where else is better (Seattle is fairly great, but was still a bit provincial when I left to return to New York 15 years ago, I don't know now, and there is that total lack of sun 8 months of the year; I like San Francisco but that is no place to be right now, maybe 5 years or so if CA gets back up from the ground).

People in Chicago have NO sense of humor. They do not understand irony. Maybe they have no need for it, but I could not imagine living there. They are too f***ing earnest (and this from someone who is too earnest herself). AND that wind chill factor is a bitch. People are generally FROM Chicago, not that many people (comparatively) move TO Chicago. Although for Rufus, that paranoid, racist, "you should be afraid, very afraid" individual, it does sound rather fitting. Go forth, Rufus, your nirvana awaits.

aboutready, why are you pissed off with NYC these days? i'm guessing it's the filth, crime, and low-quality housing?

there are plenty of people like this guy right now. got laid off and realize they're stuck in an overpriced lease for a couple of months until they are distributed back among the secondary and tertiary cities. I feel for these folks but most of them do not go on nyc real estate boards and decry how awful new york is. they quietly just leave. not this guy.

"If your friends know what they are doing you'll have a blast." Wow, you need some sort of instructions to have fun in Chicago I guess. Is it because people in Chicago aren't that smart? I'm not having fun in Chicago because I just don't know what I'm doing!

"Chicago during summer is crazy; street festivals, lollapalooza, people hanging out on lake michigan, cubs games." Street festivals, hanging out on Lake Michigan and Cubs games are "crazy" fun to people in Chicago? That is setting the bar pretty low.

Lollapalooza? You do know that there have been like 20 of them and they go all over the place, right?

We also have these things now called "cars" (you pronounce the "c" like a "k" as in kite) and you can travel to a million different places within 3 hours of NYC that you just could not get to from Chicago without a plane.

waverly, i get it. people in NYC prefer drinking latte and reading the NY Times, going to see an opera, ballet, or a gallery. Most Americans actually enjoy going to a baseball game, drinking with friends, going to street festivals during a nice summer afternoon. This is one of the reasons why the rest of the country laughs at NYC.

also, there is no place worth going to that are several hours drive from NYC. The Hamptons is overrated, Philly and Jersey sucks, New England is ok during fall.

"there are plenty of people like this guy right now. got laid off and realize they're stuck in an overpriced lease for a couple of months until they are distributed back among the secondary and tertiary cities. I feel for these folks but most of them do not go on nyc real estate boards and decry how awful new york is. they quietly just leave. not this guy."

Bingo.

When the guy is bragging about STREET FAIRS and hanging out on LAKES... wow. When thats all you have, cool. But I'm glad that not everyone in town follows baseball, but the greatest team ever is there if you want it (or another team, if you want that). I love that only a small part of the city follows the Jets/Giants, but if you want it, there are sold out games to go to.

I *love* that street fairs are the most boring thing in NYC, and that they are the most exciting thing in other cities.

Kinda shows you what else cities have going for them...

> Philly and Jersey sucks,

And this coming from the guy who thinks Chicago rules...

"waverly, i get it. people in NYC prefer drinking latte and reading the NY Times, going to see an opera, ballet, or a gallery"

Guy, are you like 23 years old?

"also, there is no place worth going to that are several hours drive from NYC. The Hamptons is overrated, Philly and Jersey sucks, New England is ok during fall."

I would hope for your sake that your piss poor attitude is due to the market and/or going off your meds because you have such an uninformed view that I'd highly doubt that you've ever been in any of the places you purport to despise. I'd be certain that Chicago folks would hate you as well.

Notice how I do not go off on an anti-Chicago diatribe, which would be equally repugnant. Why not try stepping away from the terminal, going down to the gym in your yuppie-dome condo rental and opening your mouth to the first girl you see. They aren't as scary as you think, son.

"Most Americans actually enjoy going to a baseball game, drinking with friends, going to street festivals during a nice summer afternoon."

wtf? Ummm, Yankees, Mets, ummm, there are probably 20 street fairs every weekend from april through september here and of course no, new yorkers do not like to drink with their friends. We'd much prefer to somberly ponder life whilst sipping a mocha latte at the Met.

"...people in NYC prefer drinking latte and reading the NY Times, going to see an opera, ballet, or a gallery."

Ummm, the Joffrey Ballet? I am convinced that you have asberger's. Step away from the terminal. Deep breaths now.

Yeah, there's no baseball in NYC...if we only had a team!

I also wish we had a bar or two, so that we could drink with out friends on a nice summer day.

And yes, the only places that exist outside of Manhattan are the Hamptons and Philly. NJ has a whole lot more to offer than the suburbs of Chicago, but you would need to have a bit of an open mind aboiut things to grasp a concept like that.

Finally, NYC is really expensive and has it's flaws, but guess what? 8 million people CHOOSE to live here. That matters. That many people WANT to be here. Chicago has 1/3 of the population and people are fleeing in droves. The rat population is increasing exponentially and it will only get worse.

Move wherever you want to and be proud of it....but trying to dump on NYC because you couldn't hack it here and you couldn't get laid just makes you a dick.

Rufus if you live in the West 60's you live near two of the best parks anywhere. They have things like cconcerts--rock beside classical, jazz etc

I'm angry at NY and have been for several years so I should be closing on my apartment this coming week and moving South--but I love hot weather and there's no place like NY in August to me. It has concerts all around the rivers, fairs and everything you claim doesn't happen here

It's getting harder and harder to believe you have even been to New York. Nassau County has incredible Long Island Sound towns as does Suffolk. The beaches are wonderful The North Fork, Hamptons and Montauk are incredibly beautiful and all different--some of the most beautiful scenery anywhere---and Main Beach in East Hampton is always on the list of the ten best in the country

You can just take a ferry to the beach in Jersey.

There's so much to do in New York I sometimes become paralyzed and I'm just talking about the free stuff

New England? You dissed all of New England during all seasons but fall? God you're so I will say naive...

I'm leaving but will back every month or so. I can never love a place like I love New York. Just wanted a change and kind of knew I wouldn't be able to get as much for my apartment later rather than sooner

We have no bars? Wow. So I really have been drinking imaginary drinks all these years

I think this guy's either a Chicago broker, retarded, Bill Rancik (first Apprentice winner), 16 years old, and or all four.

all four. that was easy.

Actually Rufus I greatly preferred Manhattan before the Disneyfication that occurred under our previous mayor (may God rot his soul). My first apartment (in 1985) was in Chelsea, then a largely Hispanic neighborhood where I convinced the guys to quit calling me babe and start calling me by my first name. They saved my drunken ass one night when some nasty sorts thought to trifle with me.

Then I moved to three apartments in Hell's Kitchen. One Christmas Eve our toilet backed up right after I went to bed. I sent the husband to our local bar to get a plunger. He came back with one, but informed me that I had to get my lazy ass out of bed and dressed because as "payment" for the plunger, Jake the bartender wanted to provide us with some holiday spirits.

I don't mind some reality. Any place is potentially dangerous for the unaware. What I love(d) about New York was the possibility, the diversity. Our daughter was born in Manhattan. As one of my husband's co-workers said, she's not really a New Yorker. New Yorkers are no longer really from Manhattan. Bankers and foreigners and scared rent-stabalized tenants (OK, this is an exaggeration, but you get my point) are from New York. Rufus, but for the cost, you should love it. Oh, and by the way, Central Harlem, with a large project presence, has an extremely low crime rate. Maybe you should move uptown.

Jaded - your imaginary bar tab is also due and they would like real money for it... you bastards!

Seriously, though, congratulations on selling your place and all the best to you!

He'll never move uptown. For starters it isn't Chicago. And secondly, diversity is scary to rufus. Anyone who might live in or around the projects is scary to rufus. And any place that a homeless person has walked is also off limits.

aboutready, thanks for your amusing anecdotes. so before Rudy and Bloomberg, NYC was even more grimy, dangerous, and unstable.

I think you're right on the last one. Retarded yes

Lurking on StreetEasy threads and talking to my friends every day will keep me sane and a "real New Yorker." When you're a New Yorker it's in your blood and I'm listening to Bush and Paulson and watching the market tank even more

Thanks waverly. I'm all teary about it now because this is the only place I have lived since college in Boston

Also, Rufus I sold and live (happily, relatively, I'm a purchaser by nature) in a rental. I just spent a fair amount to add a new refrigerator and some cabintets to my kitchen. I'll be here for a few more years, and I figured out that it would probably cost me about $100k to move (for another three years of rental) so I upgraded.

The crime is nothing. There is really no crime to speak of in Peter Cooper Village (some might enliven the neighborhood, just joking). It is true that I have horrible memories of less-affluent times when garbage was not picked up so regularly, and I fear for the return of said conditions, but really, I'll take some garbage any day if I can talk to 20 or so people a week who weren't born in the US. You see, unlike you, I like diversity. Go hang out with those boring people who say gosh in Chicago, and good riddance.

> so before Rudy and Bloomberg, NYC was even more grimy, dangerous, and unstable.

Yes, before Rudy, the crime rate was 2-3x what it is today. Which would make it as bad as current Chicago.

Wow, I think we have a new slogan for Chicago.... "Chicago... almost as good as NYC at its worst"

aboutready, your fears are justified. crime will skyrocket over the next few years.

having garbage on street corners is unacceptable. how can NYC not have alleys? walking around the city, i sometimes feel like i'm in India or China. The combination of garbage and the awful smell is downright revolting. Most Americans don't care too much about living in a "diverse" city if that means the city is a filthy sh*thole, which is exactly what NYC is.

see above....re: being a dick.

> Most Americans don't care too much about living in a "diverse" city if that means the city
> is a filthy sh*thole, which is exactly what NYC is.

Hmmmm.... once again, Rufus gets it backward.

More Americans choose to live in NYC over anywhere else.
NYU is the dream school for more college kids than any other school (even though the school itself isn't even a top school).
I've never heard of anyone dreaming to make it in Chicago...

Sounds like all Americans think rufus is an idiot.

Rufus, you idiot, I said crime will skyrocket EVERYWHERE.

Most americans don't care too much about living in a diverse city. Good, they can stay out of mine. I hope NYC becomes less attractive to people like you. You're the reason I'm liking this city less and less, because like-minded people haven't had the means to move to New York.

I don't mind (although I don't like) some garbage, but I really, really hate narrow-minded asshole bigots. Crime will skyrocket everywhere. Gosh, I hope you're immune in Chicago!!! Smiley face. Have you been to China? Because I have, I lived in Asia, and sweetie, if you think this is anything close in terms of odor, you're out of your f'in mind.

"NYU is the dream school for more college kids than any other school (even though the school itself isn't even a top school).
I've never heard of anyone dreaming to make it in Chicago..."

Lets not get crazy. U of Chicago is a top school as is NW. Personally, I'd prefer a child of mine to go there rather than NYU or Columbia, but thats admittedly a personal preference of mine. Back to the issue at hand, this rufus jack ass' real problem is that he cannot get laid here. I'd bet the same fact will apply when's he's in Chitown and midwestern girls are easy.

aboutready, Hong Kong, Tokyo, and Singapore, are all cleaner than NYC, not to mention the European cities.

crime will go up because of the weak economy, but Manhattan is especially vulnerable due to the presence of housing projects. At least in Chicago, the crime will be in areas far from where I will be living.

Diversity is overrated. I crack up whenever new yorkers say diversity is so awesome. It has no bearing on my life whether or not i have friends from different countries. I like cities that are clean, high quality of life, nice apartments, great restaurants, upscale nightlife, and people who are not cultural snobs like new yorkers.

"I like cities that are clean, high quality of life, nice apartments, great restaurants, upscale nightlife, and people who are not cultural snobs like new yorkers."

Kid, I get your contrarian "snobby New Yorkers" slant. I feel the same way about of lot of these folks. But you must know that no one gives a shit what you think. Your "queen for a day" moment is over. Move along.

Rufus, I lived in Tokyo for two years, you have got to be joking. Singapore is cleaner (although it has some kind of tropical stink that is unrelated to cleanliness but must still be gotten used to), but you could be caned if you leave your gum (oh, wait, not allowed) on the bus.

You're a nasty racist. The greatest crimes that have been committed these last eight years or so have been white collar. I'm much more afraid of the guys at AIG than I am of the woman who is trying to feed her family at 26 and 1st avenue.

Chicago has historically been one of the worst cities on earth for crime. Good luck (actually, not, I hope you have awful luck. You're a really nasty person. And diversity is what made this city great. Go be boring elsewhere.) Great restaurants? You MUST be joking. Although, you'll probably die young if you eat out often in Chicago, land of saturated fat.

When did you say you were leaving...

aboutready, you're a typical obama supporting liberal who hates wealth and blames everything on those "evil capitalists." you're a typical new yorker, and it's because of people like you that mainstream America despises this city.

when i'm walking around the city at night, i'm not scared of a goldman banker. i am, however, concerned about getting mugged by a guy living in the projects in chelsea who blames white people for all of his problems and think violent crime is legitimate.

god, you liberals are so clueless.

> "NYU is the dream school for more college kids than any other school (even though the school itself
> isn't even a top school).
> I've never heard of anyone dreaming to make it in Chicago..."

> Lets not get crazy. U of Chicago is a top school as is NW. Personally,

You are missing the point. I don't think NYU is a top school, and I'd probably give the edge to U Chicago. That being said, the survey of college kids says they mostly want to go to NYU despite quality of school. Being an inferior school just strengthens the point... young adults want to be in NYC.

> crime will go up because of the weak economy, but Manhattan is especially vulnerable due to the
> presence of housing projects. At least in Chicago, the crime will be in areas far from where I will
> be living.

All evidence to the contrary... all the "great" neighborhoods you noted have serious crime issues.

> It has no bearing on my life whether or not i have friends from different countries.
> Diversity is overrated.

I think we have stupid quote of the month. I guess thats what you get from a guy who thinks "upscale" means dockers.

> It has no bearing on my life whether or not i have friends from different countries.

Then Chicago is perfect... nobody from anywhere else wants to live there, just the people who got stuck there because that is where their parents' basement is...

> I like cities that are clean, high quality of life, nice apartments, great restaurants, upscale
> nightlife, and people who are not cultural snobs like new yorkers.

Well, sorry, you can't have culture without cultural snobs. If you don't want snobs, you need a place without great restaurants and upscale nightlife. You need Chicago.

You know what, Rufus, we make close to a million a year (and I'm the first person in my family to graduate from high school, come on with the generalizations, jerk, they're not going to work here). I don't hate wealth in the slightest. I hate ignorance. I hate bias. You know what, you asshole bigot, some of those Chelsea project dwellers saved my ass when I was younger just because I had the good grace (and interest, they were interesting people) to get to know them because THEY WERE MY NEIGHBORS. They saved me from some drunken frat boys, thank you, who were trying to corner me one night in 1986 on West 16th Street. So.. your point is? Maybe I just should have said hello frat boys, come rape me, and stay away poor people, you're evil?

When I'm walking around at night, I'm afraid of any stupid person who feels empowered or the opposite for any unjustified reason. God, you ...... are so clueless.

NYC - Let's not forget this beauty, "the crime will be in areas far from where I will be living."

Yeah, the spare room by the washer & dryer in your parents' basement in Hammond will be pretty safe. They can drive you to your klan meetings and pick you up from work cleaning dishes at the Pizzeria Uno.

Did you get that Rufus? It was the white frat boys who were dangerous, not the poor people. You need to learn a whole lot about people before you start generalizing and spewing your hate.

aboutready - I am sorry that happened to you, but I am glad you were saved.

Thanks Waverly. It was a great bunch of guys. Not necessarily ones my mom envisioned me getting to know, but they were fantastic in a bad spot. (And a whole lot of fun on a daily basis from the subway to home to the grocery store, etc., it was a great neighborhood).

Rufus your last comment is so funny on so many levels.

Most MSM Americans don't despise New York or New Yorkers. If they did many of us would be out of work

Many of us liberals are fervent capitalists. We're a complex people but I don't think you could grasp the concept of learning from many sources and deciding for ourselves what works or not.

Obviously you want to be taken seriously. You should care about having friends from all over. Kind of broadens you. Unless you're Sarah Palin when you're excused because you can see Russia....

These have been a hard few weeks for me- getting ready to move just when America (not just New York) is going collectively crazy. Bet if you own stocks you sold this week. Anyway, thanks for being a great diversion.

You see I don't feel great about coming into what is by most standards a great deal of money next week when everybody else is suffering--and I too have lost but...

One night in 85--guess that was a high crime time I was walking with my two best friends down East 58th Street between Second & Third. We saw a man walk in the opposite direction. He had what seemed to be a baseball bat. It was a 25 pound steel pipe. He hit my best friend just below her knee

He was white Rufus and you better believe that the police cordoned off the area within two minutes. They don't take random attacks lightly. He was captured.

My wallet was stolen and my identity stolen in 03. The police were excited as I make a good witness and they knew where the pickpocket ring was working out of--Texas, Rufus. White people from Texas who went to crowded multiplexs around the country. It was kind of interesting

But they were white people Rufus. My bank (I had left for vacation) gave a woman who didn't know my PIN or anything but name and SS# (health insurance card) more access to my accounts than they gave me--and I had reported the crime

So I blame banks and white people for crime. Oh, I am white but....

I forgot, my purse was stolen at the Barnes & Noble at 6th Ave and 21st Street (far from the projects) in 1996 (I was 6 months pregnant, it was under my chair upstairs in the Starbucks cafe). OK those are my brushes with crime, white frat boys in 1986 and unknown thieves in 1996 (in a very gentrified neighborhood, although I'm sure you'll say the criminals migrated).

GO. NOW. IMMEDIATELY. PLEASE. WE DON'T WANT YOU.

Rufus says: "when i'm walking around the city at night, i'm not scared of a goldman banker. i am, however, concerned about getting mugged by a guy living in the projects in chelsea who blames white people for all of his problems and think violent crime is legitimate."

Roofie, are you now a sociologist? So I assume you've either done or read studies on this stuff? Because to make such a sweeping statement that everyone in the projects is a criminal who blames white people for their crime and therefore believes they can legitimately commit acts of violence against them either takes a whole sh*tload of ignorance, a hatred of minorities, or both.
Besides for the fact that almost every statement you have made on here has been proven false, to make the above statement thats your bullsh*t to a whole new level.
What does Chicago do with the less well off? Bus them out to to the outskirts of town where the nice white rich people don't have to look at them? You are disgusting.

blames white people for their problems rather

chi-town has had some very violent history. have fun.

Good weekend to all....even you Rufus....

Rufus is racist
Rufus grew up in Brooklyn
Jewish
Picked on as a kid, and mom harassed by some black hoodlums
Cornell Agriculture educated at discounted Ivy League tuition
Finally had the chance to go to the promised land in Manhattan after college
Murray Hill didn't work because he is kind of dorky and didn't fit in with the jocks and frat crowd at bars
Upper West Side doesn't work because he finds it too Jewish for him but yet none of the Jewish girls are interested in him

rufus just got laid off, so he's running back to Chicago to live with his parents. :)

Obviously, he did not make it in NY. Please try to understand, he's got a lot of bitterness.

aboutready, so you and your hubby make a million dollars a year, but you live in that awful shithole known as peter cooper village? LOL! that's a good one!

i never said whites never committ crimes. but the fact of the matter is, the vast majority of violent crimes in NYC are committed by blacks and latinos. look it up yourself if you don't believe me. remember the infamous central park rape in 1989? yes, the culprits were all black and latino teens. i know liberals would say this is racist, but to them, anything that is remotely critical of blacks or their Messiah, Barack Hussein Obama, is racist.

> yes, the culprits were all black and latino teens.

Not only is rufus a racist and an idiot, he is WRONG ONCE AGAIN. Those teens were eventually PROVEN INNOCENT by DNA tests. They have all been freed, and are now suing the city for false arrest. Someone else admitted they did it, and the DNA matches.

But, what does Rufus care about it.... as long as they put SOME minority person in jail, he's happy.

One more time, Rufus has ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT.

BTW, Rufus isn't Jewish. Calling him that is an insult to Jews. They don't let Jews in Indiana anyway.

I bet you $100 that Rufus is Jewish and grew up in Brooklyn to a mother who was a teacher who was harassed in school by black students.

Rufus, good trying on the examples, ... the majority of crimes are by blacks and latinos, and I'm going to give you and example that the majority are by giving you one example

cloppityclop, look up the statistics yourself. why can't you liberals just admit that most violent crimes in NYC are committed by blacks and latinos? are facts that hard for you to swallow?

nyc10022, some of those teens were proven innocent because they did not actually committ the acts of violence and rape against trisha meili. but a decent number of them did end up going to jail.

once again, NYC liberals are trying to excuse acts of horrendous violence.

The last Jews of note in Chicago were Leopold & Loeb, and Saul Bellow. I'm not sure what that means but it must mean something

The Jews all live in Skokie and fight David Duke (not in jest):)

I'm an UWS liberal Jew from the da Island of Long

Rufus if you had been here when the jogger was raped or knew anything about New Yorkers you would have known how seriously this city took that and how most of us, granted against capital punishment, wanted the rapists hung from the cojones

We wanted it so much the cops were too eager to make arrests. They were in jails for years. DNA evidence exonerated them

You think you're smart, sophiticated, witty? Hell you're nothing and you angered me with that response. We don't excuse acts of horrendous violence.

We know the need for oversight :)

God, what have I started ?

Yes Rufus, we make close to a mil a year and we live in pcv. I have recently spent almost $10k to upgrade my kitchen (I now have pan drawers, FINALLY, and a pull-out pantry). Laugh all you'd like you dumb ass. I have a 1300 sf apt (really, not by new measurement "standards"), with granite, etc., on a high floor with really good light, and it costs me about $4k a month. I'm laugh, laugh, laughing all the way to the bank each month. AND, I can't even remember the last time I heard of violent crime over here.

Rufus, you're stupid, on oh so many levels. Go away. Now. Sticky, you've started nothing. Rufus has been his ugly self for quite some time.

Oh, and Rufus, I'm all cash also. Sold out when the market was 13000 (lost some, and lost some more to inflation, but I'm sort of happy none the less). I owned a lovely loft in Chelsea that I sold for a significant profit in 2004 (too early, but timing the HIGH in a market is a bitch), and I'll get back in in about 2010 or 11 (the LOW in a market is usually much easier to spot). I'm not so stupid as to think that my "home ownership," reflects anything other than where I'm living now, so I'm pretty happy with my decisions. Go find some glass shit box in Chicago.

Don't let the door hit your backside on the way out of NYC...good riddance!

> I bet you $100 that Rufus is Jewish and grew up in Brooklyn to a mother who was a teacher who was
> harassed in school by black students.

Sure, I'll take that bet...

And I know for sure, because that describes me exactly... if his mother was a teacher, rufus wouldn't be such an idiot.

This is a really unfortunate discussion and I hope that it stops.

For the record, Chicago has arguably the best symphony orchestra in the US. But this Chicago v. NY argument seems to have only to do with things like which town has the prettiest women or the coolest condos.

aboutready, your anger is truly amusing. i would be mad too if i had to live in that god awful peter cooper village. that place looks like housing projects, for christ's sake.

lowery, no, this discussion originally involved overall quality of life and quality of housing, since this is a real estate board. i only brought up tangential topics like women and nightlife when NYC snobs like Prada_Addict kept insisting, contrary to evidence, that Chicago is a regional second-tier city while NYC is world-class and upscale.

Rufus, I think few people who extol NYC's virtues take advantage of what is unique about NYC. It is one of the filthiest cities you'll find anywhere, even after being cleaned up. I don't think people who talk about how much better non-NYC cities are usually are referring to anything other than the fact that the sidewalks are tidier, though. I've only been to Chicago very briefly once (not including being stranded in the blizzard of January '79). I thought it was very nice. However, NYC does have far more to offer culturally.

lowery, i do agree that NYC is the filthiest city outside of perhaps latin america, India, and sub-saharan Africa. aboutready disagrees with me on this point, something i simply don't understand. anyone who has even visited NYC can tell you that it's so dirty that it's reminiscent of a third-world city.

What good is cultural amenities when you live in an overpriced filthy city?

> What good is [sic] cultural amenities

I think we have Rufus summed up right there...

Actually, I am not angry at all. I don't really like my location, and I, like you, plan on moving eventually. But I don't have a tenth of your anger. I like people, a lot. I like the elderly people I talk to on a daily basis. I like many things about NYC. I dislike many things about NYC also, but not the things YOU dislike (which MUST mean that I am angry and unhappy).

Filthy? Yes, but compared to Tokyo, where I lived and the people seemed to think that public places of worship were appropriate as garbage dumping grounds, give me a fucking break. Hong Kong? Give me a break. You should try hiking up the ashtray that is Mt. Fuji.

Cultural amenities? I doubt you take advantage of them. The real amenities NYC had to offer in the past were its people. Increasingly they've become more like you. If you leave, our amenities increase. Go. Leave. Be elsewhere. (I'm not angry, I just really don't like you.)

I agree with you, nyc10022 - however, "it's so dirty that it's reminiscent of a third-world city." One would be hard pressed to find a city with greater contrast between haves and havenots. One has to go to Latin America. But in Latin America one will not find the NYPhil playing a full season every year, each concert repeated several times a week, and have visiting orchestas from Vienna, Berlin, London, Paris, Chicago, Lyons, Luzerne, Munich, etc., etc. And that doesn't even scratch the surface. I think the biggest irony, though, for me about many New Yorkers is how they say if they can't live in a Manhattan area like UWS or Murray Hill, they'll go back to Cleveland rather than to have to live in (gasp) Queens, which is actually where NYC's diversity is, not in UWS or Murray Hill.

Lowery, unfortunately, one would be hard pressed to find a COUNTRY with a greater contrast between the haves and havenots. Due to rent stabalization, among US cities, New York remains rather interesting. But for how long? Read The Shock Doctrine, by Naomi Klein, if you want to know how and why we raped Latin and South America. We're not that far behind people, and if economic circumstances had been slightly different (and I DO mean slightly) I'm not certain we wouldn't have had our own SHOCK doctrine here. Fortunately for us, there was no other consumer to pick up our slack. I agree with you, btw, NYC's diversity (and interesting quality) is rapidly moving outward, to Brooklyn, Queens and even, possibly, the Bronx. (Although the Bronx, as well as Harlem, will probably fade quickly, due to the cost/benefit ratio, not enough, too experimental.)

why exactly are liberals so obsessed with diversity? most Americans appreicate it but not at the expense of quality housing, reasonable cost of living, and proper sanitation, something NYC lacks.

Rufus, I really am not sure where you're coming from. 15 years ago, yes, NYC had awful sanitation. 15 years ago NYC had expensive housing, etc. The cost of buying has greatly increased, and the cost of "new" renters entering the MANHATTAN market has become horrible, but Rufus, it has ALWAYS (over the last 20 years at least) been horrible. So new kids must move to Brooklyn? Big deal, I've heard it's much better there anyway. If I were 15 years younger and without a kid I'd be there in a second.

Why do we liberals like diversity? Because we like people. And not just people who look exactly like us. By the way, the restaurant scene in Chicago sucks. Really. Have fun.

From Reuters (regarding Naples, Italy and its surrounding region): The United States embassy in Rome has warned U.S citizens they may face a health risk in Italy's southern Campania region due to a garbage crisis that has filled streets with piles of rubbish..."U.S. citizens traveling to or through the area may encounter mounds of garbage, open fires with potentially toxic fumes, and/or sporadic public demonstrations by local residents attempting to block access to dumps," the embassy said in an advisory note....Last month the European Commission took legal action against Italy over the thousands of tonnes of uncollected waste, saying it posed serious health and environmental risks through the spread of disease and through pollution of air, water and land.

Gee, I guess there are areas in EUROPE which are so filthy that the US State Department had to issue a travel advisory and the EC had to take legal action!

aboutready, a friend of mine from Latin America feels that the US has already surpassed Latin America in horrific raping of the have-nots and that things are already worse here in terms of the contrasts than they are in Latin America. I'm sure he's over-reacting a teency bit, but his suggestion is actually supported somewhat by immigration information - the traffic direction is reversing

aboutready, yeah, i'm sure the restaurant scene in Chicago sucks, which is why culinary critics have praised places like alinea and charlie trotter, as some of the best restaurants in the country. get over yourself. the world does not revolve around NYC.

Lowery, wow. I have been fairly sure that our government's debasement of it's people has been horrific, but to hear that someone who has lived through the utter economic rape of our Latin American neighbors feels that we're surpassing their downward spiral. Just wow.

Charlie Trotter is great. Once every two or three months. I don't go to Nobu or any or the other giants more than once a month in NYC either. I go to wonderful little places in the East Village. Chicago has three or four great restaurants. Have fun, Rufus.

Dear Aboutready,

Your posts have been so informative. Now I know to avoid such dangerous areas as Murray Hill and UES because of those dangerous frat boys. Bed Stuy, Brownsville, Detroit, SE Washington DC....totally safe.I guess it goes without asking that you'll send your children to public schools in the city? I'm sure the "benefits" from all of the diversity they will experience will be richly rewarding :) That's assuming you're white.

Jen

Jen, I'm not sure exactly where you're coming from. I've lived in this city for more than 20 years (by the way, I'm pretty sure I mentioned that I lived in Hell's Kitchen for years). Yes, I'm white and I have a daughter in private school, and no I'm not ashamed of any of that. I considered public school, but wasn't comfortable with the middle school options. I NEVER said that Murray Hill or the UES were dangerous because of frat boys, I just happened to run into a few nasty ones in 1986 in Chelsea (or do you have difficulty reading?). My husband went to high school in D.C., grew up in West Virginia, I went to PUBLIC middle school at a really nasty place in the NW (later many of the teachers and administrators were accused of being in a drug ring). Actually, I think the benefits my daughter will receive from growing up in a diverse environment, with parents who love her and WHO ARE ACTUALLY AROUND, will do wonders. She's a lovely person, in many ways. I really hope (and I'm very sure) that being "white" has nothing to do with it. She has friends from all walks of life. (her best friend's grandmother, for example, is NY's state poet, now where do you get such wondrous diversity benefits?). Jen, you sound rather angry.

Readers Digest rated the 50 dirtiest big cities in the US. NYC was listed as the second dirtiest and guess who was the DIRTIEST CITY IN THE US.......CHICAGO! They take into account things like air, water, toxics, hazardous waste and sanitation.

http://www.rd.com/your-america-inspiring-people-and-stories/50-cleanest-dirtiest-cities-in-america/article15115.html

Rufus - you are so funny! You are full of so much hate and self-loathing and every single thing you say is proven wrong! Seriously, every single thing you have shot your mouth off about has been proven wrong!

Hahaha!