Square footage inflation - worst offenders

thats pretty bad.. but i think landlords can legally charge up to 25% loss factor for halls and egress's.
i did go see a commercial space one time advertised as 1500 sf and it was about 100 sf usable , because the elevator and mechanicals took up the entire space. nycrs were the broker ad they didnt seem to care.

It's been done already. Why not just add to the existing thread rather than start another?

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/5501-square-footage-exaggerations-examples

Oh, and to link, all you need to do is highlight, copy and paste the address. :)

15b is no larger than 650/700 square feet at best.

doesn't anyone think that its just a mistake given the pricing and the comps? and how obvious that the number is so incredibly off.

If the crude drawing is proportional, I got 508 sf, making the ask over $1,050 per s.f. Pity the person who bought 12G for $552k, if that is a real sale (it listed and sold at 595k in July, then sold again for 552k in Sept., and is still listed at 595k??).

This one is pretty bad too. It's about a 100% inflation!

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/355105-condo-117-beekman-street-fultonseaport-new-york

Caught red-handed!

http://curbed.com/archives/2009/03/18/curbedwire_soho_sizechopper_sun_setting_on_solstice.php#reader_comments

http://www.observer.com/2009/real-estate/will-recession-cause-towers-significant-shrinkage

I personally don't get into all of the broker bashing that goes on around here. I believe that just like the rest of the population - there are good and bad out there.

I do object, however, to massively overstating the square footage. I personally can't see how this one gets over 1500 square feet. So, a claim that this is 2500 square feet was either a mistake or really deceptive.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/393361-coop-129-west-22nd-street-chelsea-new-york

find a listing that understates square footage. kinda like finding a broker that's honest.

spqsydney, if you think that the "bad" brokers are a minority, why don't you try and find a listing that actually states the square footage honestly? From what I can tell, 100% of brokers lie about the sq. footage; it's just a matter of how badly they inflate the numbers.

talking about square footage, this is from a broker in the west village. I was basically asking for the size of the unit, and they kept refusing and when I added the size in the floorplan I ended up with a striking $1400/sqf which I thought it was ridiculous. I got the following answer from the broker

"Coop's (especially in townhouses in the west village) aren't sold by price per foot like condos because they vary too much in size and condition. It is also hard to compare square footages because the dimensions don't always cover the entire space and no two units are measured the same. So it is difficult to comment on a price per foot"

santaoct - here is the easy come back. Say you needed to carpet all the usable space. How much carpet would one need in square feet? If the broker cannot answer this, fire them. They are kind of in need of work these days. I for one have zero patience for idiots like you describe and would have turned around and walked out the door without saying a word.

Is this REALLy 1338 SF?

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/rental/460314-condo-130-west-19th-st-chelsea-new-york

and

http://www.prudentialelliman.com/listings.ASpx?listingid=1078222&utm_source=Streeteasy&utm_campaign=corporate&utm_medium=listings

I would say the broker is a big fat lying turd.

This Curbed PriceSpotter claims 6,000sf:

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/393426-condo-206-west-17th-street-chelsea-new-york

Since the living/dining room looks to be 40 feet wide, and the rest of the place is slighly more than twice that long, call it 85 feet, I get 3400 sf for most of the place. Add in another few hundred sqaure feet for the stub sticking out, I get 3,700sf max, and they claim 6,000?? Is there a 2nd floor somewhere I am missing?

Modern, the whole lot is 6207, per the city.

The condo declaration lists each full-floor unit as 5664. Unusually, they calculated from the inside of the outer walls, not the outside.

Looks as if Mr. Herbst is taking the 5664 and adding 336 sf of outer-wall thickness, to make it comparable to more-standard condo-sf calcs. Whether the 336 was a good guess, and whether the little courtyards add up to 207 sf, I dunno.

Seems pretty close, as these things go. BTW, four of those rooms have only lot-line windows, so shouldn't be labeled as bedrooms.

I get what you are saying but then what is wrong with my math? You can add up the 23 and 17 to get 40 wide, it is slightly over 2x that in length, that gets you 40x85 or 3400 sf. I still don't get how that floorplan is more than 3,700, maybe 3,800sf max.

I mean, c'mon. a 6000 sf loft with a 20x23 or 460sf living room? Where is all the space?

Lots of closets, baths, chimneys, hallways, etc. That gallery up the middle must be several hundred on its own. It'd be a huge chore to figure out what the usable square feet are, let alone define "usable," which is why condo-pushers go with the condo-declaration size. That's as close to a standard as there is, and even that varies. I can see why Herbst would add something for the outer-wall square feet, since most other condos count those.

Since there is no standard, leaving you to do your own calculations according to your own standard for every apartment of interest, doesn't seem worth looking at $psf except in the very broadest terms.

You're right, a 20x40 living-dining isn't much for the size. In an apartment of that general size you could get a 20x30 living plus a 17x25 dining, easy, with just as many bedrooms.

Worst offender: 333 East 80TH Street, 2D. Check out Prudential listing of "over 750 square feet" versus the small print on the bottom of the floor plan that shows 581 square feet. Ooops!

loftsbrooklyn - this is perfectly accetpable for commercial property because it is standard and accepted. Rentable square feet includes the pro-rata share of the common areas (hallways, elevator shafts, etc). Usable square feet is based on the actual dimensions of the offices.

For residential, it should be based on the interior walls of the unit. A 750-square-foot apartment is a 750-square-foot apartment, period! If one of the buildings has a larger and more luxurious lobby, that can be factored into the market value.

prettykitty: even in residential condos, you see a lot of the percentage of common area being included in the apartment's square footage, depending on the building.

Beware of anything listed by this agent, Elayne Reimer of CBHK: http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/contact/11563-elayne-reimer?custom=true

She lists apartments in the Excelsior, 303 E 57th. A friend of mine actually wrote to her about this apartment: http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/183819-coop-303-east-57th-street-sutton-place-new-york asking about how the floorplan clearly shows 2300 sq ft and she listed it as 3300 sq ft. She didn't respond and also, took the floorplan off the site.

How is square footage measured? Is it the measurement from inside the exterior walls length of apt, (ignoring internal walls) X width of apt, or the sum of all individual spaces? I have calculated it as the latter & come up with 2880 vs official 3200sf.

>>How is square footage measured?

It's the largest number the broker can think of, plus 25%. I always take a laser measure now, and make the broker sit thru my checks. Then I query the official figure. You should hear the excuses.

For a condo, the measurements are from the start of the outer walls. For coops it is usually from the inside of the walls.

I spoke to one appraiser who appraised a coop at 815 sq ft. The previous appraiser counted 657 sq ft. If they use a lazer measure, it has a tendency of bouncing off furniture and provide inaccurate readings. I would rather use my feet then using a lazer measure.

As far as most brokers, they most likely never took elementary math. So 500 sq ft + 500 sq ft + 100 sq ft = 1500 sq ft, RIGHT????

OK... so, am I crazy or is this apartment being listed as, basically, twice as big as it really is?

1175 York Avenue #1D

That makes its current price somewhere in the neighborhood of 1200 psf... but that's not the worst, look at the history, it's been reduced by 40% from OLP. At some point, some carbon-based life form thought that this shitty 1st floor studio was worth almost 2000 psf!!!

Also, the broker is too lazy to delist previous listings, so you can do a complete archeology of their delusional stupidity: how their inflate square footage, how they try to sale apts. alone or in combination with 1, 2, 3 or 4 others. How they wanted to sell you 2 first floor studios, as a package, for 1.4 million. I would like to immediately nominate them for delusional sellers of the month.

I'm not sure I follow you: the only 1D listing I see is quoting 633SF. You think it's 317SF?

30 yrs., unless the floorplan attached to their listing is wrong, yes. I mean, it has a single 22x11 room, plus bathroom, kitchenette and a closet. But the funniest/most outrageous part of it is the history: they were trying to sell THAT for 750K a few months back. Unless they've posted the wrong floorplan and I'm fuming over nothing.

Square foot inflation where every foot counts. Courtesy of AR in the Julia thread.

352 West 56th Street, 1A

The site lists it as 550sf, but their own floorplan shows 39x10...which in case I'm not mistaken, is 390sf. And that's not discounting for the airwell or interior walls. 380sf max. That means they're adding 170 "magical" square feet to an apartment that really needs them to be there.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/444844-condo-119-fulton-street-fultonseaport-new-york

I know someone who lives in this line- she said these apartments are 1321 SF, not the purported 1471 SF of the largest line (http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/433034-condo-119-fulton-fultonseaport-new-york). 10% mark up is not the worst, but it's enough to increase Ask $/SF to $1100, which is crazy talk.

Also heard the common charges are about $1K and there are 2 full bathrooms. Since an identical apartment with two huge terraces sold for less than their ask at peak, something is clearly not right with these sellers and/or their agent.

133 W 22nd apt 10c

No square lines to really measure this one accurately but 1582 interior?
This interior looks about 1000 sq ft!!
The higher section looks about 15 by 40 = 600 and the 2 bedroom section to be generous 20 by 23 = 460.
The terrace is more like 40 by 15 = 600 sq ft plus that little corner.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/319715-condo-133-west-22nd-street-chelsea-new-york

Not to mention the scathing discussions on this building and the developer Ben Shaoul

i saw a few places at 133 w 22nd and they all seemed WAY smaller than the stated square footage so you are more than likely correct.