Paterson Warns on Real Estate

I wonder what he means by "housing market" . . . national? NYS? NYC? FiDi?

Let me add the preceding sentence: "In describing the severity of the state’s finances, Mr. Paterson used words like “unprecedented” and “uncharted.”"

That make it clear?

The only clear part is:

“In order to get through this,” he said, “we are going to need federal assistance.”

The state budget is certainly an area of concern.

I am not so sure Gov. Paterson is the sharpest tool in the shed and this may be too big of a challenge for him to handle effectively and that concerns me, too.

Since he is going to seek federal assistance he is also going to make it sound as bad as possible, so that he can be in a better light for aid....just wanted to make sure that people keep things like that in mind. There is a bit of poker being played here.

Does that mean the government will buy me a new apartment? Spreading the wealth is beginning to sound a lot more appealing.

lo888 -- in Buffalo.

Regardless of how "sharp" his mind is, the fact is that real-estate taxes make up a large portion of the state and city budgets, and the MTA's, as well. His prediction about the future of the real-estate market is grounded in reality, especially in Manhattan: it rose more than 100% in 5 years and it hasn't been affected by the national downturn, now approaching 30% in some markets and still falling. The effects of the financial meltdown haven't been felt yet, either, though they're coming.

Steve - I agree that there will be pain and a budget shortfall. How severe is up to debate. How it directly effects NYC is up for debate. How we should handle it and make things better are hopefully already being debated.

"How we should handle it and make things better are hopefully already being debated."

Nothing can stop prices from falling back into equilibrium with (falling) incomes and (falling) rents. Nothing.

Steve - I understand that prices are falling and will fall. You reiterate your stance on that with most of your posts.

My point was that the situation has to be dealt with from a policy, budgetary and planning standpoint and I would hope that Paterson and his people have been having these kinds of scenario-laden discussions for months now. The problem is what it is....and what is more important is how we deal with it going forward.

waverly - Patterson has stated many times that spending needs to be cut. Two weeks ago he specifically stated on Bloomberg that NY cannot rely increasing taxes as a way to decrease the budget shortfalls. We are going to have to cut spending.

Unfortuantley ir is not up to Patterson...NY state legislators (both republican and democrat) have never decreased spending.

this is not an issie of whether Patterson has the brains...anyone can see what the problem is...the question is does the NY state legislators have the will to do what is needed.

He is not exagerrating our budget deficit for effect

I think this makes prices worse... figure what happens if RE taxes go up 25%

One of the things that separates truly great politicians who accomplish things and politicians that are great at getting elected but not so much at actually doing anything is how they handle crises. This is an opportunity for a real leader to make a difference in NYS and also in NYC.

Yes, the budget needs to be slashed, but it is not so simple as that. What else do you do? Which programs do you cut? Sure you can increase all sorts of taxes, but which ones and by how much? Do you come up with new ways for the state and city to generate revenue...and if so, how?

There are a lot of unknowns here that can make the situation in NYS and NYC better or worse and I am curious to see what types of plans Paterson and Bloomberg come up with.

"Which programs do you cut?"

Medicaid - it even covers podiatry.

Union pensions. Stop allowing folks to retire at 40 with full pensions and full benefits, and crisis is solved. The amount we owe there, that isn't even in the budget yet, is astronomical.

"Stop allowing folks to retire at 40 with full pensions and full benefits"

Agreed, as well.

LIRR pensions.

Teachers - highly overpaid: $120,000 for (barely) 9 months' work, retire after 20 years at half pay, full medical benefits, extra for summer work, defined benefit plan.

My uncle was a cop - retired after 20 years - then worked for the post office - retired after 20 years - and now he has 2 pension + social security + government retirement + full medical. He makes more than I do, and I have to work.

> LIRR pensions.

Well, that one is just fraud. Torch 'em, for sure. But at least they were *supposed* to be paid less.

A very close relative is a NYC public school teacher. She will retire before 60 with a guaranteed six figure pension AND social security with no taxes AND full healthcare. Even she says this is ridiculous (especially since the union screws the young teachers).

MTA folks... thats just a scam.

The true cost of lifetime healthcare is so insane that if folks actually knew, this would be shut off in a minute.

It's real simple, but too politically charged, mostly due to lobbyists: NYS must stop spending so much. Period.

stevejhx - re your uncle - in a couple of years, he moves to Florida because NY he complains that taxes in NY are too high. This is what happened when my uncles retired from their jobs with the city, with their generous city pensions. They don't realize their pensions are a significant contibuting factor to the taxes we pay. Actuarially, NYC is not sound. You cannot pay three or four people to do one job - assume a person starts at 25, works 20 years, retires and is replaced by another 25 year old - and the process repeats itself.
Between the Obama tax increase and the one Bloomberg is considering, the cost of living is going much higher. So much for spending $1,000 a square foot on a co-op. Hopefully the mayor changes his mind and runs the city as he would his company. Take on the unions if he has to.

"he moves to Florida"

He's already in Florida.

"Take on the unions if he has to."

Let us hope. The problem isn't that public employees aren't paid enough - the problem is that they are actually paid more than the private sector (didn't used to be that way) and their benefits are CONSTITUTIONALLY protected. I mean, please!

Then restructure the MTA - all the agencies are still run as separate businesses, budget could be cut 30%. Then combine it with the Port Authority. Sell public housing to the residents as Margaret Thatcher did, make them responsible for running their own properties.

Health care: institute the California Medicaid system. They insure twice the number of people for half the cost. Of course Medicaid in NY is really run to keep doctors and nurses and hospitals in business, so it's really for the wealthy, not the poor.

steve, did you fail the civil service exams? or do you have too much pride and you chose your career on principle?

So many whiners on this.

My 10th grade math teacher told me that life isn't fair. Fortunately in the many years since 10th grade I have the right perspective on the world. Although one thing he didn't prepare me for were the people who just don't stop complaining about their own "unfair" situations.

gleeclub: what exactly are u talking about? NY and NYC are in the grips of a budgetary crisis and we HAVE TO CUT SPENDING in addition to likely tax icreases in order to meet a budgetary shortfall. Are you suggesting that the state do nothing and keep our expenses high while every business leaves the state ?

You aren't suggesting that are you? because if you are Real Estate in NY will drop like a rock in a few years.

What does having to cut spending have to do with my comments about constant bitching about how much money someone else makes? Whether it is a Wall Streeter or someone who got a cushy job with the state. Were those jobs not available to steve or was he just too principled?

Not sure if this has been cited elsewhere on the board, but NY, though declining somewhat slightly, is holding up pretty well in the last C-S report.

http://www2.standardandpoors.com/spf/pdf/index/CSHomePrice_Release_102831.pdf

"steve, did you fail the civil service exams? or do you have too much pride and you chose your career on principle?"

I never took the civil service exam. I have a problem with people being overpaid, teachers being paid to do nothing, people retiring after 20 years - all when I have to pay for it.

"My 10th grade math teacher told me that life isn't fair."

Too bad you didn't make it into college - Econ 101's Day 1 lesson is: there's no such thing as a free lunch.

C-S has no bearing on Manhattan real estate.

the NYS defined benefit pension = 2% X each year of service X average of three best years' pay

that does not equal reiring after 20 years at half pay

among other exaggerations and oversimplifications, as per the usual

such as, for instance, that teachers work "barely 9 months"

steve, maybe you are overpaid to do really nothing. What do you do, translate words for 12c? Hardly high profile or valuable. How much do you get per word on streeteasy? Could it actually be that you are projecting your own insecurities and jealousies on others?

Also, I always like when people say, it's simple Econ 101. I can always tell that those people didn't make it to the second economics class. Which did you take, macro or micro?

"2% X each year of service X average of three best years' pay"

Meaning that if you work for 35 years, it's 70% of your 3 years' best salary, which at today's rate would be about $84,000, plus Social Security.

Sweet.

Most private pension plans are defined contribution, not defined benefit.

You are eligible after 5 years' service. Many private retirement plans aren't even fully vested after 5 years.

Maximum salary $100,000+:

http://schools.nyc.gov/TeachNYC/SalaryBenefits/Salary/Salary.htm

"Teachers can also earn additional income from after-school, weekend, or summer school employment, paid at a contractual rate of $41.98 per hour."

Sweet. I never earned a dime in overtime in my life - no one in the private sector does, unless it's menial labor.

Plus there's no accountability - read their contract. Plus bad teachers are paid to sit in a room. Plus there's TENURE! Meaning they can't be fired, but whose purpose was to protect research professors from being fired for political purposes.

Sweet.

And yes, they work about 9 months a year - I know lots of teachers, from the public schools to the college system to administrators. They have the last week in June, all of July and August OFF, Christmas, Easter OFF (totaling about 3 weeks). The fact is, they work 9 months out of the year; most private-sector professionals get about 3 weeks' vacation, and not as many holidays.

The fact is also that the net present value of a teacher's retirement benefits is about $2 million per teacher.

I don't care what you pay them - as long as they work for it and are held responsible. Why are Catholic Schools so much more successful, when they pay their teachers $35,000 a year?

"Hardly high profile or valuable."

Rally? Vale. Si tú me puedes decir qué es lo que estoy escribiendo, y qué significado tiene, entonces te lo voy a creer.

"Which did you take, macro or micro?"

Actually, I have an honors degree in Economics. Thanks for your concern.

Good job steve.

According to my word counter, that was 330 words, off of which you could have earned $39.60, enough for another bottle of vodka for you, but instead you provided, once again, your valuable insight and opinion to the rest of us on streeteasy, pro bono. Gee thanks!

As for your honors degree in Economics, perhaps then you missed the first days of Econ 102 - macro - when your professor taught you about the money multiplier effect - as a more complete response to "no such thing as a free lunch."

waaah, I'm steve and could have been doing something else making more money, plus I could have bought a NYC condo and made money on that too but I didn't, plus I invested in BRIC countries on margin but lost all my money recently, waaah

steve, re: healthcare, instituting the "California Medicaid" system does not work in the context of NY. The healthcare system is too decentralized here for that to work. One of my old professors actually wrote a book on this very issue, and I can assure you, it's not as easy as you make it sound.

Healthcare, unions and pensions are some of the things that will need to be addressed because of the budgetary shortfalls. Those are the type of things that I was talking about where this is going to be an opportunity for a great leader to make a difference. I have more faith in Bloomberg's ability to navigate a crisis of this magnitude and come up with creative solutions to help move NYC forward positively than I have in Paterson's ability to stand-up to the challenges of NYS politics and have the same positive outcome.

I could certainly be wrong and I hope that I am wrong. I hope that the political leaders are able to actually come up with ideas that help. because we are going to need assistance and creativity to contain the damage and speed the recovery.

gee, steve, sounds like you're envious of those public school teachers
why don't you see if you can't get into that gig if it's so great?
I think you might be able to get somewhere near $40,000 to start, since
you already have your master's degree

There are no words for people who wish for teachers' salaries to go down. Well, none that are printable, that is.

WSJ writer wrote a book on how pensions are killing America..

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/04/books/review/Madrick-t.html

A chunk of the book is about the MTA.

Politicians in this town are in the pockets of the unions. You can't get elected without them. Bloomberg is the notable exception - instead he spent $200 mil - and even he said he won't fight the unions (check the NY Mag anniversary issue).

Campaign finance reform limited business contributions... but unions can give whatever they want.

The unions screwed this city for years. Only RECORD wall street profits allowed us to get out of that funk. But consider that we had UNPRECEDENTED wealth and income in this town for a few years and STILL managed to have a state shortfall.

The union tax in NYC is going to be our downfall...

"perhaps then you missed the first days of Econ 102 - macro - when your professor taught you about the money multiplier effect - as a more complete response to "no such thing as a free lunch."

What does the one have to do with the other, or with what we're talking about?

"plus I could have bought a NYC condo and made money on that too but I didn't, plus I invested in BRIC countries on margin but lost all my money recently, waaah"

Well, besides the lunacy of that comment - I have plenty of cash, too, and didn't lose all my money or close, waaah - it assumes that real estate will retain its value in the medium-term.

Doubtful, and far more painful than any short-term loss in the stock market (felt by billions of people the world over) as there is no cost to holding stocks and their prices go up as quickly as they do down. You take a very short time frame and extrapolate - that is an error.

"The healthcare system is too decentralized here for that to work. One of my old professors actually wrote a book on this very issue, and I can assure you, it's not as easy as you make it sound."

Then fix it. Sorry, but NYC needs a new Margaret Thatcher, who did precisely the hard things.

"sounds like you're envious of those public school teachers"

Absolutely would never do it. Not interested.

"I think you might be able to get somewhere near $40,000 to start, since you already have your master's degree"

"Teachers who already have a master’s degree but no teaching experience will start at $51,425."

"There are no words for people who wish for teachers' salaries to go down."

Who said they need to go down? If they showed some results I'd sure pay them more. But compared to the private sector they are vastly overpaid, with overly expensive benefits, no accountability, and they can't be fired. Seems to me just the sort of environment that would attract incompetents, and given the many teachers I know, it is generally the case.

Or the teachers they can't fire because of the union...

Are you aware that the state legislature and the governor just passed a bill saying that PERFORMANCE could not be used as a factor in granting TENURE.

Forget the fact that this isn't university research, where tenure is needed to protect discovery of ideas... which is NOT AN ISSUE IN 3RD GRADE ENGLISH.

If there is performance-less tenure, WHY THE FUCK HAVE IT?

Aren't we just saying "if you get this job, you can't lose it".

HOW ON EARTH IS THAT GOOD FOR THE KIDS OR THE CITY?

Transfer taxes. The State makes money when you sell. Even if prices hold level but turnover activity slows, the state will lose money. That's it.

Couldn't agree with you more, nyc. Why do kindergarten teachers deserve bonuses if they can't teach finger painting?

BTW once these benefits are written into law, they can never be taken away.

The system is run for the teachers, not for the students.

"bonuses."

Oops! I'm on another thread! "Tenure." :)

I am a NYC public school teacher. I am VERY lucky to work in an outstanding school. However 90% of NYC teachers do not. Catholic schools are successful because they have smaller classes and can pick and choose their students. Yes we have the summers off, but most people work because in NYC it is difficult to survive on a teacher's salary. Also, our vacation schedule is our perk. Many employees get perks such as free dinners, vacations, tickets and bonuses. We get none of these things. I have 30 credits above a masters degree and after 12 years earn $78,000. I am struggling to save money for a studio apartment. I wouldn't call that overpaid. You should spend a week as a NYC school teacher before you bash us.
Thanks for listening!

It would be great if it were illegal for people to give benefits to themselves (either by voting or thanks to the union) that can only be paid by saddling in debt future generations (that didn't have a say in that "agreement").

why not? give yourself benefits only if they can currently be paid in its entirety. otherwise "sorry, there's no money for that".

"Catholic schools are successful because they have smaller classes"

We had 50 kids in my class. How many do you have?

"in NYC it is difficult to survive on a teacher's salary."

"I have 30 credits above a masters degree and after 12 years earn $78,000."

Okay, $78,000 / 9 * 12 = $104,000 on an annualized basis. Gee - let me feel bad for you. Plus a defined benefit retirement plan, full medical insurance, and you can't get fired and you have no accountability. Sounds like a bad deal to me.

With your base salary of $78,000 (supplemented by summer work, I'm sure). You can afford to rent an apartment for approximately $2,000 a month. Let me save you the effort as my tears shed. Below is a list of no-fee apartments you can rent for $2,000 a month or less in MANHATTAN alone. Go into the outer boroughs and there are even more:

Apartments in Battery Park City:
$1,943 Studio at Gateway Plaza 8
$1,953 Studio at Gateway Plaza
$1,962 Studio at Gateway Plaza
$1,962 Studio at Gateway Plaza
$1,971 Studio at Gateway Plaza
$1,989 Studio at Gateway Plaza

Apartments in the East Village:
$1,595 Studio at 512 East 5th Street
$1,595 Studio at 512 East 5th Street
$1,715 Studio at 112 East 7th Street
$1,720 Studio at 514 East 5th
$1,720 Studio at 512 East 5th Street
$1,720 Studio at 512 East 5th Street
$1,785 Studio at 128 St. Marks Place
$1,795 Studio at 514 East 5th
$1,795 2-Bedroom at 431 East 9th Street
$1,810 Studio at 102 St. Marks Place
$1,820 Studio at 518 East 5th
$1,840 Studio at 516 East 5th
$1,875 Studio at 518 East 5th
$1,885 Studio at 112 East 7th Street
$1,945 2-Bedroom at 622 East 11th Street
$1,945 2-Bedroom at 622 East 11th Street
$1,945 2-Bedroom at 620 East 11th Street
$1,945 2-Bedroom at 620 East 11th Street
$1,945 2-Bedroom at 620 East 11th Street
$1,975 Studio at 128 St. Marks Place

Apartments in Financial District:
$1,750 Studio at 99 John

Apartments on the Lower East Side:
$1,895 1-Bedroom at 104 Suffolk

Apartments in Central Midtown:
$1,985 Studio at Central Park Mews

Apartments in Hell's Kitchen:
$1,995 1-Bedroom at 414 West 49th Street

Apartments in Kips Bay:
$1,895 Studio at 382 Third Avenue

Apartments in Midtown East:
$1,900 Studio at 231 East 53rd
$1,900 Studio at The Beaux Arts

Apartments in Murray Hill:
$1,795 Studio at 655 Second Avenue

Apartments on the Upper East Side:
$3 1-Bedroom at 30 East 92nd Street
$1,550 Studio at 1665 First Avenue
$1,575 Studio at 516 East 86th Street
$1,575 Studio at 317 East 85th Street
$1,600 Studio at 317 East 91st Street
$1,600 Studio at The Oxford Houses
$1,635 Studio at 317 East 91st Street
$1,675 Studio at 317 East 91st Street
$1,690 Studio at 315 East 85th Street
$1,695 Studio at 306 East 89th Street
$1,695 Studio at 311 East 60th Street
$1,695 1-Bedroom at 419 East 72nd Street
$1,700 Studio at 423 East 90th
$1,700 Studio at 425 East 77th Street
$1,700 1-Bedroom at The Oxford Houses
$1,725 Studio at 231 East 96th
$1,750 Studio at 322-324 East 61st Street
$1,750 Studio at 233 East 96th Street
$1,750 1-Bedroom at 1420-1422 Third Avenue
$1,750 1-Bedroom at 404 East 63rd Street
$1,795 Studio at 880-882 Lexington Ave
$1,795 Studio at 311-313 East 73rd Street
$1,800 Studio at 1494 2nd Avenue
$1,800 Studio at 534 East 88th Street
$1,800 1-Bedroom at The Oxford Houses
$1,800 1-Bedroom at The Oxford Houses
$1,825 Studio at 315 East 81st Street
$1,840 Studio at 326 East 81st Street
$1,850 Studio at 401 East 77th Street
$1,850 1-Bedroom at 423 East 75th Street
$1,875 Studio at 307 East 81st Street
$1,875 Studio at 307 East 81st Street
$1,895 Studio at 341 East 62nd Street
$1,895 Studio at 314 East 82nd Street
$1,895 1-Bedroom at 1378 York Avenue
$1,900 Studio at 171 East 89th Street
$1,900 Studio at 200 East 87th
$1,900 1-Bedroom at 414 East 78th street
$1,910 1-Bedroom at 320 East 91st Street
$1,925 Studio at 171 East 89th Street
$1,925 Studio at 225 East 85th Street
$1,925 Studio at 345 East 85th Street
$1,925 Studio at 309 East 81st Street
$1,925 1-Bedroom at 228 East 81st Street
$1,950 1-Bedroom at 303 East 81st Street
$1,950 1-Bedroom at 320 East 91st Street
$1,950 1-Bedroom at 320 East 91st Street
$1,950 1-Bedroom at 320 East 92nd Street
$1,995 Studio at 415 East 72nd Street
$1,995 1-Bedroom at 414 East 84th Street
$2,000 Studio at 340 East 81st Street
$2,000 Studio at 404 East 88th Street
$2,000 Studio at 409 East 81st Street

Apartments on the Upper West Side:
$1,469 Studio at 56 West 106th Street
$1,650 Studio at 485 Central Park West
$1,900 1-Bedroom at 313 West 88th
$1,950 Studio at 200 West 83rd street

Apartments in Central Harlem:
$1,150 2-Bedroom at 2509 Seventh Avenue
$1,250 1-Bedroom at 267 Edgecombe Avenue
$1,250 1-Bedroom at The Sylvia
$1,260 1-Bedroom at 270 West 153rd Street
$1,275 Studio at 620 Lenox Avenue
$1,275 Studio at 630 Lenox Avenue
$1,275 Studio at 620 Lenox Avenue
$1,298 Studio at 2306 Seventh Avenue
$1,300 Studio at Lenox Terrace
$1,320 Studio at Lenox Terrace
$1,350 1-Bedroom at 141 West 139th street
$1,350 2-Bedroom at 141 West 139th street
$1,390 Studio at Lenox Terrace
$1,390 Studio at Lenox Terrace
$1,400 2-Bedroom at 270 West 153rd Street
$1,420 Studio at Lenox Terrace
$1,420 Studio at Lenox Terrace
$1,430 Studio at Lenox Terrace
$1,430 Studio at Lenox Terrace
$1,450 Studio at Lenox Terrace
$1,460 Studio at Lenox Terrace
$1,460 Studio at Lenox Terrace
$1,540 1-Bedroom at 60 West 142nd Street
$1,540 1-Bedroom at 2300 Fifth Avenue
$1,550 1-Bedroom at 60 West 142nd Street
$1,550 2-Bedroom at The Rose
$1,560 1-Bedroom at 630 Lenox Avenue
$1,570 1-Bedroom at 30 West 141st Street
$1,590 1-Bedroom at 30 West 141st Street
$1,695 Studio at 268 West 120th Street
$1,700 1-Bedroom at Lenox Terrace
$1,700 1-Bedroom at Lenox Terrace
$1,730 1-Bedroom at Lenox Terrace
$1,730 1-Bedroom at Lenox Terrace
$1,750 2-Bedroom at 420 St Nicholas Avenue
$1,775 1-Bedroom at Lenox Terrace
$1,795 1-Bedroom at Lenox Terrace
$1,795 1-Bedroom at Lenox Terrace
$1,905 1-Bedroom at Lenox Terrace
$1,950 2-Bedroom at 30 West 141st Street
$1,950 2-Bedroom at 60 West 142nd Street
$1,950 2-Bedroom at 60 West 142nd Street
$1,950 2-Bedroom at 620 Lenox Avenue
$1,955 1-Bedroom at Lenox Terrace
$1,965 1-Bedroom at Lenox Terrace
$1,965 1-Bedroom at Lenox Terrace
$1,978 1-Bedroom at 191 St. Nicholas Avenue
$1,995 1-Bedroom at Lenox Terrace
$1,995 2-Bedroom at 276 West 119th Street
$2,000 2-Bedroom at 60 West 142nd Street
$2,000 2-Bedroom at 30 West 141st Street
$2,000 2-Bedroom at 630 Lenox Avenue

Apartments in East Harlem:
$1,895 1-Bedroom at 101 East 116th Street

Apartments in Inwood:
$1,030 1-Bedroom at 616 Academy Street
$1,100 Studio at 4996 Broadway Street
$1,100 Studio at 4996 Broadway Street
$1,100 1-Bedroom at 601 West 190th Street
$1,150 1-Bedroom at 601 West 190th Street
$1,190 1-Bedroom at 595 West 207th Street
$1,190 1-Bedroom at 616 Academy Street
$1,195 Studio at 4996 Broadway Street
$1,195 1-Bedroom at 595 West 207th Street
$1,200 1-Bedroom at 4996 Broadway Street
$1,214 1-Bedroom at 616 Academy Street
$1,225 Studio at 4996 Broadway Street
$1,225 1-Bedroom at 595 West 207th Street
$1,245 1-Bedroom at 595 West 207th Street
$1,249 1-Bedroom at 595 West 207th Street
$1,250 1-Bedroom at 595 West 207th Street
$1,250 1-Bedroom at 595 West 207th Street
$1,250 1-Bedroom at 616 Academy Street
$1,250 1-Bedroom at 616 Academy Street
$1,250 1-Bedroom at 616 Academy Street
$1,275 1-Bedroom at 616 Academy Street
$1,275 1-Bedroom at 2 Ellwood street
$1,300 1-Bedroom at 4996 Broadway Street
$1,300 1-Bedroom at 4996 Broadway Street
$1,350 1-Bedroom at 34 Hillside Avenue
$1,380 1-Bedroom at 72-74 Vermilyea Avenue
$1,395 1-Bedroom at 616 Academy Street
$1,396 1-Bedroom at 4996 Broadway Street
$1,400 1-Bedroom at 9 Thayer Street
$1,450 1-Bedroom at 2 Ellwood street
$1,475 1-Bedroom at 34 Hillside Avenue
$1,475 1-Bedroom at 34 Hillside Avenue
$1,475 1-Bedroom at 1 Bogardus Place
$1,475 1-Bedroom at 2 Ellwood street
$1,475 1-Bedroom at 34 Hillside Avenue
$1,475 1-Bedroom at 34 Hillside Avenue
$1,490 2-Bedroom at 4996 Broadway Street
$1,575 1-Bedroom at 34 Hillside Avenue
$1,780 2-Bedroom at 4996 Broadway Street

Apartments in Washington Heights:
$1,200 Studio at 275 Fort Washington Avenue
$1,200 Studio at 275 Fort Washington Avenue
$1,200 1-Bedroom at 656 West 171st Street
$1,221 2-Bedroom at 2006 Amsterdam Avenue
$1,290 1-Bedroom at 647 West 172nd Street
$1,300 Studio at 275 Fort Washington Avenue
$1,300 Studio at 275 Fort Washington Avenue
$1,300 1-Bedroom at 656 West 171st Street
$1,350 1-Bedroom at 656 West 171st Street
$1,350 1-Bedroom at 647 West 172nd Street
$1,350 2-Bedroom at 656 West 171st Street
$1,360 1-Bedroom at 656 West 171st Street
$1,395 1-Bedroom at 556 West 188th street
$1,400 1-Bedroom at 725 West 172nd Street
$1,400 1-Bedroom at 90 Ellwood Street
$1,430 1-Bedroom at 556 West 188th street
$1,475 1-Bedroom at 725 West 172nd Street
$1,500 1-Bedroom at 2 Pinehurst Avenue
$1,500 1-Bedroom at 559 West 164th Street
$1,500 1-Bedroom at 559 West 164th Street
$1,500 2-Bedroom at 656 West 171st Street
$1,501 1-Bedroom at 275 Fort Washington Avenue
$1,522 Studio at 1224 St. Nicholas Avenue
$1,545 2-Bedroom at 725 West 172nd Street
$1,550 1-Bedroom at 275 Fort Washington Avenue
$1,550 2-Bedroom at 564 West 160th Street
$1,550 3-Bedroom at 510 West 170th Street
$1,570 2-Bedroom at 656 West 171st Street
$1,575 1-Bedroom at 4455 Broadway
$1,600 1-Bedroom at 275 Fort Washington Avenue
$1,600 1-Bedroom at 701 West 175th Street
$1,600 1-Bedroom at 701 West 175th Street
$1,600 1-Bedroom at 639 West 173rd Street
$1,600 2-Bedroom at 656 West 171st Street
$1,606 Studio at 1224 St. Nicholas Avenue
$1,620 2-Bedroom at 647 West 172nd Street
$1,650 1-Bedroom at 725 West 172nd Street
$1,650 2-Bedroom at 647 West 172nd Street
$1,650 2-Bedroom at 647 West 172nd Street
$1,700 2-Bedroom at 961 St. Nicholas Avenue
$1,700 2-Bedroom at 961 St. Nicholas Avenue
$1,700 2-Bedroom at 961 St. Nicholas Avenue
$1,740 2-Bedroom at 647 West 172nd Street
$1,746 1-Bedroom at 1224 St. Nicholas Avenue
$1,750 2-Bedroom at 725 West 172nd Street
$1,850 2-Bedroom at 656 West 171st Street
$1,850 2-Bedroom at 725 West 172nd Street
$1,850 3-Bedroom at 545-547 West 158th Street
$1,865 1-Bedroom at 610-618 West 164th Street
$1,890 2-Bedroom at 725 West 172nd Street
$1,920 3-Bedroom at 238 Fort Washington Avenue
$1,975 2-Bedroom at 725 West 172nd Street
$1,995 2-Bedroom at 600 West 161st Street

Apartments in West Harlem:
$1,150 Studio at 49 Saint Nicholas Terrace
$1,150 2-Bedroom at 549 West 144th Street
$1,200 Studio at 368 West 127th Street
$1,200 Studio at 49 Saint Nicholas Terrace
$1,200 Studio at 49 Saint Nicholas Terrace
$1,200 Studio at 593 Riverside Drive
$1,200 Studio at 49 Saint Nicholas Terrace
$1,290 1-Bedroom at 49 Saint Nicholas Terrace
$1,300 Studio at 593 Riverside Drive
$1,375 1-Bedroom at 49 Saint Nicholas Terrace
$1,450 1-Bedroom at 618 West 142nd Street
$1,450 2-Bedroom at 49 Saint Nicholas Terrace
$1,475 1-Bedroom at 601 West 139th Street
$1,575 1-Bedroom at 15 West 139th Street
$1,595 3-Bedroom at 549 West 144th Street
$1,600 1-Bedroom at 593 Riverside Drive
$1,600 2-Bedroom at River Cliff
$1,750 2-Bedroom at 49 Saint Nicholas Terrace
$1,800 2-Bedroom at 49 Saint Nicholas Terrace
$1,950 2-Bedroom at 45 West 139th
$1,950 2-Bedroom at 15 West 139th Street
$1,950 2-Bedroom at 45 West 139th
$1,950 2-Bedroom at 15 West 139th Street

None of these good enough for you? Then I suggest an outer borough.

"You should spend a week as a NYC school teacher before you bash us."

I didn't "bash" you - I said you were overpaid when you count all the benefits, lack of accountability, inability to be fired. Quite the deal.

"It would be great if it were illegal for people to give benefits to themselves (either by voting or thanks to the union) that can only be paid by saddling in debt future generations (that didn't have a say in that "agreement"). why not? give yourself benefits only if they can currently be paid in its entirety. otherwise "sorry, there's no money for that". "

Ironically, legislation just like this is popping up. I can't remember the exact specifics, but I believe that municipalities are now required to note future pension/benefit commitments in their financials. I don't know the scope, however, I just know this came up in the news quite a bit. Unfortunately, this did NOT extend to federal government, where we've promised 100 trillion in entitlements and then claim our deficit is only $10 trillion.

But, yes, absolutely, these promises NEED to be documented as liabilities.

> I am VERY lucky to work in an outstanding school. However 90% of NYC teachers do not.

1) Those teachers can now be paid more for being in the lousy schools
2) The HUGE reason the lousy schools exist is because of bad teachers. You can't cause the problem and then point out the result as the reason. Get rid of the lousy teachers, and we'll have less lousy schools.

> Catholic schools are successful because they have smaller classes and can pick and choose their
> students.

My classes all had 40+ kids. And a huge chunk went to the ivies.

Bad teachers are bad teachers, no matter the class size.

> Yes we have the summers off, but most people work because in NYC it is difficult to survive on a
> teacher's salary.

Oh no, you have to work the full year to get your $100k?

> Also, our vacation schedule is our perk. Many employees get perks such as free dinners, vacations,
> tickets and bonuses. We get none of these things.

I've worked a number of white colalrs jobs in my time, and I never got free vacations or tickets. Bonuses are included in total compensation.

I also don't get to go home at 3pm.
I also don't get lifetime healthcare
I also don't get lifetime pension at over 100% salary (once you factor in overtime scams in last 3 years).

Most of the private sector would KILL for that.

> I have 30 credits above a masters degree and after 12 years earn $78,000.

For perspective, that is median starting salary for a LOT of business schools. And given that your $78k pro rates to $100k, I'm not sure what the complaint is here...

> I am struggling to save money for a studio apartment.

So is 95% of the population. Most people in Manhattan DO NOT OWN. At $100k, you're actually median for all of Manhattan. Considering that includes Wall Street, you CAN NOT claim poverty.

> I wouldn't call that overpaid.

If teachers were hired and promoted on merit, I'd agree.

In the current system, I absolute disagree. That is VERY MUCH overpaid given you can't get fired and get super generous benefits.

> You should spend a week as a NYC school teacher before you bash us.

Why do you think any of the complainers haven't?

The biggest complainer about the excesses I've noted are coming specifically from the close relative who is a lifetime UFT member...

> Thanks for listening!

Ditto. Now tell your friends.

Can someone help me figure out why when stevejhx's arguments start to show their weaknesses that he posts a really long list of nothing so that the subject matter becomes lost (except for our very favorite self conversationalist, EddieWilson/nyc10022)?

RE: The HUGE reason the lousy schools exist is because of bad teachers. You can't cause the problem and then point out the result as the reason. Get rid of the lousy teachers, and we'll have less lousy schools.

The HUGE reason the lousy schools exist is because of lousy parents.

Typically, although there are exceptions, schools reflect the income and education of the parents in the district.

Yeah gleeclub, that list of apartments is pretty unhinged. Of course none are an apartment that a family could comfortably live in in Steve's neighborhood. Stick to the RE crash Steve.
I'm sure lowering teacher's salaries will improve the quality of teacher in this city.

I didn't really want to get into this fray, but kgg's right -- bad parents are the cause for bad schools (which they view as a babysitting service). Re: Catholic schools, making a school choice for one's children requires some level of interest in education, so it's already a self-selected population. The ability to boot problem kids out of that system altogether offers refinement that's not feasible in the public school system.

If NYC public school teaching were such a great, well-compensated gig, there'd be fierce competition (among the best and the brightest) for the jobs, but somehow that doesn't seem to be the case. Nonetheless, in my 12 years of NYC public school education, I don't recall ever having a bad, lazy or incompetent teacher.

"Can someone help me figure out why when stevejhx's arguments start to show their weaknesses that he posts a really long list of nothing so that the subject matter becomes lost"

No. When you find an answer, let us all know.

so let's see now...... it's been established that i-bankers have ruined the economy by being paid a lot of money, and now that we're gloating about their collective reversal of fortunes, we're going to rant about those #$)(*@ overpaid public school teachers, right? I ***think*** I kind of understand that human foible of resenting the high pay of people who are paid higher than ourselves, but am I to take from this that people who lament the compensation of NYC public school teachers are being paid less than they? Or is it actually a case of contempt for people who have/make less than us? It hardly seems nice, now, does it?

"RE: The HUGE reason the lousy schools exist is because of bad teachers. You can't cause the problem and then point out the result as the reason. Get rid of the lousy teachers, and we'll have less lousy schools.

The HUGE reason the lousy schools exist is because of lousy parents."

I agree with you there, too. Teacher's jobs would be MUCH, MUCH easier if so many parents weren't completely disinterested. That being said, there are lots of interested parents.

And if I had to pick one thing to be improved, its the teachers. Great parents with lousy teachers won't work. Great teachers with lousy parents can still work, just not as well as ideal.

> If NYC public school teaching were such a great, well-compensated gig, there'd be fierce competition
> (among the best and the brightest) for the jobs, but somehow that doesn't seem to be the case.

There is fierce competition among the least qualified. Why would the best and bright fight for a job that pays decently, but would drive them insane from beauracracy and ridiculous UFT rules? I know TONS of folks who go into teaching, but most of the smart ones get frustrated, and leave the putzes behind (who don't have other options).

> Nonetheless, in my 12 years of NYC public school education, I don't recall ever having a bad, lazy
> or incompetent teacher.

Sounds like you were in exception schools. I was in some, too.

The majority of our schools are miserable failures.

> Or is it actually a case of contempt for people who have/make less than us? It hardly seems nice,
> now, does it?

I don't have contempt for folks who make more or less because they make more or less.

I have contempt for folks who make the world a crappier place and get paid ANYTHING for it. In that list, I include the Wall Street "mavericks" (idiots), the state Assembly, Sheldon Silver, UFT leadership, SEIU leadership, and some others...

nyc10022, there are mooches in all walks of life, and unfortunately in either government-paid jobs, or "private industry," union or non-union, there will always be freeloaders and people taking advantage.

I for one take issue with (and I know it is not you who do this) people who stand on a soapbox about NYS employees and state categorically that teachers make too much money, or that it's not fair that a person can accumulate in one lifetime two defined benefit pensions. Those who do not spend their working lives accumulating two defined benefit pensions made their choices, and it's their problem that they will be doing piece work all their lives, like garment workers, not the teachers' union or the railroad workers' union.

Starting salaries for NYC public school teachers are LOW!

"Of course none are an apartment that a family could comfortably live in in Steve's neighborhood."

1) He wasn't looking for one, he's looking for a studio.

2) There is no God-given right to live in Manhattan.

3) You can rent a mansion in Riverdale for that money.

"it's been established that i-bankers have ruined the economy by being paid a lot of money"

No. It's been argued that they got paid a lot of money to ruin the economy. Quite different.

"now that we're gloating about their collective reversal of fortunes, we're going to rant about those #$)(*@ overpaid public school teachers, right?"

No, but if you want or have to send your child to a NYC public school, perhaps you'd ask for a little accountability for the money. Which is, in fact, what people are asking investment bankers for: accountability for the long-term results of their short-term bonuses.

"The HUGE reason the lousy schools exist is because of lousy parents."

And how do you quantify that? I had an uncle who was a heroin addict; his younger brother became a school superintendent. Same parents.

IF there were accountability for teachers - there's not - then they'd sure make sure that the parents were involved.

"IF there were accountability for teachers - there's not - then they'd sure make sure that the parents were involved."

That is so absurd it's actually funny.

I've been reading this site for about a year and this is the first time I've ever wanted to post. My mother is an excellent teacher who works with other amazing teachers who spend their own money on supplies and time off the clock working with students who are struggling with the material. Her school has many students for whom English is not their first language and most do not have the advantage of having involved parents as those same parents are struggling to make ends meet. During the day, my mother teaches her requisite subjects but also teaches conflict resolution and acts as a surrogate parent. I currently have an executive level job and do this day do not believe I work as hard as my mom still works. I've always thought of her pension as her reward for years of underpaid service. When looking to save our tax money let's start elsewhere.

criticizing public school teachers and griping about their pay is the most mean-spirited, nasty thing I know of - it shows a lot about a person when s/he does it

steve wrote: "IF there were accountability for teachers - there's not - then they'd sure make sure that the parents were involved."

That is hands down one of the most stupid, naive, mean-spirited things I have read on this board in a year and so incredibly off the wall--especially for you. Do you know anyone teaching at a school in the more challenging areas around NYC? Have you been in these classrooms and watched and talked to the teachers and principals and asked any questions about parent involvement?

In many areas where it isn't uncommon for a 78 year old grand mother in failing health to be raising 6 of her kids kids. Many children don't know their father because he was never in their lives, and their moms aren't or can't "be involved" because of drug addiction on one end of the scale or because of working 3 jobs on the other end to stay off welfare? What do you say to a teacher with 5 kids in a class of 30 whose fathers are unknown, in jail or just absent and who ACS has removed for neglect from their mothers and placed them with struggling relatives? You know what kind of emotional and behavioral mess a child in such a situation is? Do you? Do you realize how many kids are in this situation?

Most teachers in these schools struggle to teach classes of 25 students--many of whom have severe behavioral problems--day after day with inadequate help and resources.

And have you actually been in any of these classrooms to see the love these teachers bring to their jobs everyday under circumtances that would exhaust most of us in a day and cause us to quit in a week?

How did this degenerate into bashing teachers in broad strokes and without qualification? Steve, I just can't believe the quote I started off with here came from you--we can argue about an issue at times and agree at others, but that kind of statement is really mean-spirited and demeaning to a lot of people who show more dedication to their jobs than you or I ever will be called upon demonstrate.

Take it back.

I agree.

I can hear Pink Floyd "Hey, Steve, leave those teachers alone."

Screw the PTA let's talk about the MTA! Now that is a hive of corruption
and gross spending practices and the subway is still a shithole.

I am a product of public schools and a mother who was a teacher. I made it Ivy as did my younger brother.

I think my teachers, on a scale of 1-10, ranged from 5-10, with the mean being an 8.

Steve I suspect was a problem child in school. Could you imagine Steve's pre-calc teacher when they tried to tell him that there is no final digit in pi? Or Steve's art teacher when he was told that you can make brown with BOTH green and orange or purple and yellow?

Or be in Steve's gym class when he's listening to your conversations about sports in the locker room?

"nyc10022, there are mooches in all walks of life, and unfortunately in either government-paid jobs, or "private industry," union or non-union, there will always be freeloaders and people taking advantage."

Agreed. But if you run one of those companies and get taken advantage of, its your fault. If it is your government doing it, then you SHOULD be standing on a soapbox and pointing that out. If you don't, then that would also be your fault.

> Starting salaries for NYC public school teachers are LOW!

Mainly because the UFT is led by the old tenured teachers who take most of the salary money. They fight for money at the END of the scale, not the beginning. The UFT made its choices, to complain about that now...

"Do you know anyone teaching at a school in the more challenging areas around NYC? Have you been in these classrooms and watched and talked to the teachers and principals and asked any questions about parent involvement? "

Yes and yes. And I've had more Board of Ed / Dept. of Ed exposure than most teachers.

And, kyle, while you do describe some scenarios, my personal take from what I've seen is APATHY is the problem for the majority. You don't need to tutor your kids or mentor them or answer their questions, how about just taking 3 seconds to check that they've done ANY homework before they go outside, and smack them upside the head when the misbehave the the teacher calls home 10 times.

We're talking about a ridiculously low standard that a huge chunk of these "parents" aren't even meeting...

> I am a product of public schools and a mother who was a teacher. I made it Ivy as did my younger
> brother.
> I think my teachers, on a scale of 1-10, ranged from 5-10, with the mean being an 8.

I think we're talking about the schools where the kids don't go on to ivies... or 4 year colleges for that matter.

Has anyone heard of any pending reduction in the NYC school budgets?

budgets are done once per year

I guess this sort of answers my question. Thanks NYT for getting back to me.

"“It will require sacrifice from every city agency and in some senses, every New Yorker,” said Edward Skyler, the city’s deputy mayor for operations. “But we need to take these painful but necessary steps now; delaying the inevitable will only make it worse.”

In terms of staffing, Mr. Bloomberg is proposing to lay off 500 city workers and shed another 2,500 through attrition.

Among the hardest hit would be the Department of Education, with Mr. Bloomberg proposing to eliminate 475 positions — mostly in administration — of which 219 would be layoffs. But Bloomberg officials say that such cuts, while difficult, would not affect classrooms.

“We worked extremely hard to try to shield schools from as much of the impact of these cuts as we could,” said David Cantor, a spokesman for the Department of Education."

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/05/nyregion/05budget.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&ref=nyregion&adxnnlx=1225897491-mtLMcugQIt0KW2/Iq7pSlA

Nonetheless, pretty grim news for NYC.