Anyone with school-aged kids on in the city?

yes, i have 2 preKs as well. They go private, we pay.

One preK and one K. Private, we pay.

It seems like most families I talk to who need more space, are planning to make a move in March 2009. I would imagine that many private school families in the city are itching to get out of the expensive private school lifestyle and opt for a more simple life in a suburban community with low taxes and established public schools. I would also imagine that with city budget cuts, public schools in NYC could start to get ugly (well, uglier).

I just wonder that if this is "the plan" for everyone, will demand for family-sized housing spike in the spring? Could there be bidding wars again on family-sized homes? That would be so sad and unfortunate for the many people who have been holding out for their dream home these past few years. Maybe NOW is the time for these young families to buy something before the mayhem begins in the spring???

I'm not a broker, just a contrarian.

We bought in a top school zone. No way we are getting priced out of the city. I expect 3-bedrooms in top school zones near transportation to increase in value next year, despite what all the non-owning dreamers on here say.

you mean that there will be bidding wars in the suburbs on March 2009? I doubt it, but anything can happen, who knows?

I really believe that not buying in NYC for a few years is the best move, specially for those without super stable income. the last thing you want is to buy a home and find yourself unemployed soon after. renting a place you like for a few years seems financially smarter and probably more stable (that's more important when you have kids). "wait and see" will be the most common thing i'd bet.

We have one 6th grader, private. If you are looking for a public zone, be very careful. There was an article in the NY Times the other day. The Bloomberg admin is finally actually discussing rezoning, and have significantly reduced their school construction plans, and some people, particularly on the UWS are not so happy. Also, almost all public middle schools suck, so families who have been in the public system are often left with few to no options then and may have to decamp for the woods

mrsblogs - a couple of years ago I had heard that a number of younger families who were renting had concluded that the city was too expensive and they would be moving by kindergarten. Some of those may change their minds, but other well-off families will be faced with three kids and unemployment, or much less income. Many still have quite a bit of cash, but a lot of their retirement may be in company stock, so their net worth may have plunged well over 50%. 35K dollars a year per kid, plus increasingly high real estate taxes, is a lot of money.

The bottom line is that there are too many "family-sized" apartments for the number of school seats.

We have one in private preschool and will make sure we remain in a very good public zone - which we are now. We'll apply to privates with financial aid and test for citywides - gifted and talented. I can't tell you much now since dd is only 2 yo

Just to tell you my sister has a 3rd grader- they own a 3 bedroom in a good school zone, can afford private and go public. The younger one is in private preschool and will also probably go public but will test and see

happyowner...
I hope you are right about 3beds increasing in value. At this point all evidence suggest otherwise. The anecdotal evidence is suggesting otherwise as well. Both my children go to top uptown private schools. My daughters school has already lost one lower school family (left the city). And 3 girls in my daughters grade did not show up in Sept after having made huge partial tuition payments. They are all in the process of leaving the city.

I think a lot of people leave the city. If you have 3 kids that mean's you'll be forced to pay $100K per year in tuition. If you've been laid off that's a lot of money, or even if you still have a job, you may be making less than before. I think a lot go on the market in the spring. And a lot of families bought 5-10 years ago, so even if they sell at a 35% discount to 2007 prices, they won't really lose money.

To the extent people leave the city, I am not sure how it will affect suburban prices. There are so many suburbs and you're talking about a relatively small number of people. Also, I think a good portion of these people leave the NYC area all together.

I survived public schools, and my (currently nonexistent) offspring will too. What I refuse to do to them is make them grow up with a yard as their only culture. I wouldn't force them to live in the suburbs if I had any way of making it work in a city. A lot of young families find a way to make it work in cities, and the movement is more in that direction, not toward the suburbs.

However, that doesn't mean it has to be New York, even if it would be my first choice.

I'm all with evnyc. There are a lot of worse possible fates than public school, such as overparenting, ridiculous attachment to privilege and an out-of-touch environment for your intellectual nurture. In Manhattan, and particularly in District 2, there are plenty of very good, rather good and acceptable options of public school at all levels. There is G&T, too. Then again, there is a certain disconnect in this forum in general, where people like to portray themselves as rich but self-made (in many cases through RE investment, hahaha) but then they also brag of sending their kids to private school and call it "the only option". Pleeease. BTW, mrsblogs is not a contrarian but just a realtor if she's warning about bidding wars in 09. Buy now or be priced out forever!

I have children in private school that I pay for.

I agree that public schools are good for kids, that people overly freak out about every little things for their kids, and that the movement is more from suburbs to cities that the other way around. However, for people who don't live in a good public school district, it can become a different story (we can debate all day what's good and "good enough" but regardless of one's individual criteria, plenty of parents in Manhattan would say if it's not one of a handful of District 2 schools, it's not good enough). Also, I wonder what a prolonged economic downturn will do to the trend towards cities - especially in an era of overparenting, I think some people who can't get their kids into a good public school (however defined) and can't spring for private school tuition (which is difficult for several children) may leave for the suburbs.

As of a "yard as their only culture" - there are pros and cons to both cities and suburbs. A lot of parents who have made the city choice say things are harder: in the suburbs, your 6 year old and their friend can entertain themselves in the backyard and ride bicycles in the driveway or right out front. In the city, it becomes an event: you've got to take them to the park. It becomes harder for kids to "make their own fun," and, as they get older, to have fun in less expensive ways. I see plenty of downside to the suburbs too: dependence on cars, lack of culture and diversity, likely a longer commute for the parents. But's let's not pretend there aren't trade-offs to both approaches.

"you mean that there will be bidding wars in the suburbs on March 2009? I doubt it, but anything can happen, who knows?"

Get out of your NYC bubble, there are already bidding wars in Westchester, and there always have been in the towns with top schools (Chappaua, Scarsdale) This will only increase as people dicied teh city is just not worth it anymore when you can still have the city 30 minutes away whenever you want it

Of course there is a trade-off. First of all, since there aren't and there won't be bidding wars anywhere in the continental U.S. for the foreseeable future, you can lowball and buy a very nice 4/2 home in, say, Tenafly, NJ (it's HS has been rated top5 in the state for decades) for 450K. Very white, very ambitiuos and SATs through the roof. I personally prefer the city, more diverse, and dream of the day my 4 year old turns a cellphone-wielding 12 and takes the subway to gym class instead of being driven around until 16. Also, drunk 18 year-olds drive a car into a ditch a lot more frequently than they fall drunk into the subway tracks, so I also think it's safer for adolescents, too. Finally, if you live in a bad school district, move. Falling RE in NYC will give you at least some options in 2009 and 2010.

It's not just a good public school vs. private school debate. It's what is going to happen to those "good" public schools over the next couple of years. Top schools are suffering horribly from overcrowding (not all, but most). The number of new "family" developments will only exacerbate that. Many of us do not need the 10:1 student/teacher ratio that some private schools provide, 28:1 doesn't look so good. No space for art classes, computer labs, etc. Last year when some parents on the UWS complained during a public meeting to Klein, he told them if they weren't satisfied they could send their kids to private school. There just aren't enough spots, which may change as some people decide or feel forced to leave the city. And I'm sorry, unless you're kid is both very bright and very focused, and you get lucky, there are extremely few options for public middle school, especially if you consider the future application pool which will include many more families who stayed in the city because they were zoned for good elementary schools.

Oh, and as I wrote, the Bloomberg administration is seriously looking at rezoning as a way of redistributing elementary school population. Some communities are very angry.

We have two kids (10 and 13) in private school, and we split the cost with our employer.

We would love to move close to school though (UES) and have checked out a number of apts (2-3 bdrms, focusing on new developments) over the past summer. Thankfully we did not go into contract - and are now patiently waiting for the inevitable price drops. But from having made the rounds, I would agree with aboutready that "there are too many "family-sized" apartments for the number of school seats" (certainly along the UES; with more to come as people with families leave). And so we wait.

Interesting - is overcrowding worse on UES? I thought it was worse in Tribeca - my friends downtown seem to complain more than those uptown, but maybe that's just anecdotal.

we rent and have a toddler in a private full-time daycare/school. We would like to start him out in public school. PS by us is very good, we are one block outside that school's zone, BUT they will be rezoning. So, we're waiting and will rent/buy an apartment on the same block as a good PS if we have to.

BTW, it is also my understanding that the middle schools are horrible. My peers with kids in PS have theirs in G&T by then. HTHs

Indeed, rezoning is an issue. We bought very, very close to the school, basically across the street. And the neighboring school is excellent as well. Middle school is a minefield, would either go private at that point and move somewhere cheaper in the city. Commuting is very hard on the family.

nyc - many of the private schools have very few spots for middle school. My daughter's school had 6 that year, but three of those spots went to kids living outside of Manhattan. Another child I know got one of 4 spots at a different school, with two of those comeing from outside Manhattan. Some of the private schools are trying to increase enrollment size, but others want to maintain the same size to maintain the feel of the school.

However, this may change if you have young children. If a number of families are forced to leave the city, those with infants may be able to find preschool spots, those with preschoolers may be able to find elementary school spots, etc. If things stayed as they are today, there is a terrible backlog that would exist for preschool, elementary and middle school. Good luck.

Anybody knows a good source for information on rezoning?

I haven't been on the website for awhile, but www.insideschools.org has always had very good information regarding the NY public school system.

aboutready, you have been saying this for months now and I think it may be time for your argument to change.

Your argument seemed to be that, without enough school seat for family sized apts, then ppl would eventually figure out that they could not live in the city and send their kids to schools with non-existenn seats. Thus, and correct me if I am wrong because you were never very clear, family sized apt prices would become less desirable and would sit unsold - you seemed especially focused on new construction.

Thus if there are a lot of empty, unsold, unrented family sized apartments then maybe there will be enough school seats afterall.

Well, yes, if the real estate market changes drastically enough, and people are forced to move, there may be enough seats. My argument was that new construction and birth rates were creating an under-five population that could not possibly be serviced by Manhattan's then-current school seating. If one were to be cynical, one might think that the current administration just figured that a collapse would take care of the issue. You either have sold large apartments and not enough school seats, or empty large apartments and perhaps enough school seats (but still unlikely for certain areas).

I see your point in the switch, but I am just pointing out in the short term it pays to be careful, because school population shifts may not happen in accordance with one's personal needs. I have always also said that I think that the market would decline significantly, if you recall, and that would change the school dynamic. My argument was for the bulls, who seemed to think that families would never want to leave the city and the construction would continue unabated. The two, in my mind, couldn't coexist.

It will be a few years before our baby is in school, but we're determined to stay in the city. We've had this debate numerous times with family members in Ridgewood NJ; we'd get more space in the suburbs, but it isn't worth it to us it once you add the cost of the two cars and commuting time. (Both my job and my husband's job start at around 7 am and 8 am in the morning.) We found the smallest condo that we could reasonably live in with one child in a good school district. We also had the option of buying in Harlem, but decided that the we'd then have to then consider private school and the trade-off didn't add up. We by no means make a lot of money.

I do work for people who make a ton of money and have kids -- meaning they live in apartments worth anywhere from 2 mm to 10 mm with second homes in the Hamptons. They're not excited about the current economy, but are staying here with their kids and continuing along as usual. (I can think of three clients with kids in this position.)

I do consider Middle School to be an issue, but we're a few years away from that decision.

^^Every young families plan at some point..

If you "by no means make a lot of $", then it is almost impossible to make it work, and not worth the trade offs.

Reality will sit in when its time to have then 2nd, or time to try and get the 1st into nursery school. Enjoy it now though, living in the city with 1 BABY is great...

There are volumes of information (and misinformation) on this topic, all over the Internet. Long story short:

There are lots of good elementary schools, and it's no secret where they are. Keep an eye on redistricting proposals, but also remember that the final zoning decisions are likely to be Solomonic compromises (cutting the baby in half to please everyone, thereby pleasing no one) so take any plans to radically redraw the map with a healthy dose of salt.

Middle school is challenging. Whether your kid gets into a good program, near your home, may depend as much on your tireless efforts to game the system as it will on Junior's talent and charm. Or you may just get lucky. A lot of parents like to complain about how hard it is to be them, and they sometimes exaggerate the hardships of public school parenting.

Ultimately, your kids learn more from you than they do from any teacher. As long as they're safe, and reasonably challenged, I honestly believe your own efforts can make up for a lot of deficiencies in the classroom.

West81st, as usual, you're a beacon of sanity and reason. If Palin can dream about 2012 why not you?

Just came from a very ugly CEC meeting (Center school moved! Proposed rezoning of 199 students into 191! and more!) The only positive thing I can see is that there are a lot of people who care about what happens to New York City. Never felt so much community spirit before - too bad a lot of it was channeled into animosity against each other.

10023: Did the meeting degenerate into a pitched battle between the neighborhood old guard and the Riverside Blvd arrivistes who swamped 199?

There was a police presence, so no. It always surprises me that the major argument of the Center School folk and others who argue for out-of-catchment students is grounded in racial diversity. Their view is that it's not fair to have access only if you can afford to buy in and that NYC is a defacto segregated city by race. What is frustrating to me is that they only "see" diversity if they can color it - i.e. a school can be totally lacking in socio-economic diversity but can be racially engineered to be diverse racially. Kind of racist, no?

But if you have access by means of testing (G&T, elite publics) and should the school not perfectly reflect NYC demographics, that's also not fair. Really, the only thing that would satisfy some would be no zones at all - pure random assignment by lottery (with maybe a sibling preference).

If you "by no means make a lot of $", then it is almost impossible to make it work, and not worth the trade offs.

While I agree that this city is MUCH more palatable with a ton of money, that's a pretty ridiculous comment (from the same poster who claimed that there are no 2-bedrooms convertible to 3-bedrooms under $2MM on the UES, and then derided a bunch of examples between $1-$1.5MM as unacceptable).

Of course there are trade-offs, but each person decides for themselves. I know plenty of people in their 30s who grew up in the city, went to so-so public schools, shared rooms in crowded apartments with siblings, and did just fine. They have no regrets and neither do their parents. Plenty of people do the same now.

So yes, it can be done - just depends on what you personally deem acceptable and how you value your trade-offs.

I hope not to have to make the extreme choice, but I'd rather sacrifice some space and school quality that than have my kids live in stereotypical suburbia and never see their parents because they commute 90 minutes each way.

Thanks newbuyer99. I have friends with twins who live in a two-bedroom on the way upper west side. (The girls share a room and are quite happy about it.) They're not making a ton of money either but it works for them and they love raising a family in the city. Having their kids grow up surrounded by culture and diversity is as important to them as it is to my husband and me. The family I'm mentioning is in a so-so school district, but understand how much parental guidance is a factor in a child's education. The school is safe which is what counts most.

I've also worked in three different public after-school programs on the upper west and upper east side. None of the schools would be considered top-notch, but they were all perfectly fine. If my husband and I had picked a condo in Harlem instead of downtown we would have seriously looked at public versus private school, but that doesn't mean we would have gone with private. Like everything else, we would have done our cost-benefit analysis and made the most of whatever decision we made. People figure it out ... it's all about knowing what your priorities are. For us, spending a couple of hours a day commuting is not worth it.

nyc10023,
Regarding the PS199 rezoning, is it specifically the Riverside Blvd buildings or others as well such as the one next door and up farther in 70's?

For those of you raising children in the city, do you have room for kids to have their own room or are you making do with your 1 bedroom? If making do with 1 bedroom, how are you reconfiguring your apt?

"(from the same poster who claimed that there are no 2-bedrooms convertible to 3-bedrooms under $2MM on the UES, and then derided a bunch of examples between $1-$1.5MM as unacceptable).

What I said was that there was a reason way all of them were still on the market after 100 days each. Looks like no one is willing to make the sacrifice there...

Re: Yard as your only culture...

I'm moving to the suburbs but, why would that stop us from coming into NYC all the time while still getting one of the best public schools in the country?

The train ride where I am is about 40 minutes...

My little one is 8 mos and we spent a lot of time in NYC so far.. we have an apt we're now renting out - as a baby she LOVED walking around NYC and I think it made it easier at times to just go and walk places a lot - but, we'll be in the city a ton when the weather is good no matter what - the city is part of us.

This is like saying "Too bad those city kids will never see the Beach".

aifamm, they're not proposing rezoning the Trump Riverside Blvd buildings, just the area south of 64th and West of WEA -- they'd go to PS 191. There's also an area east of Broadway between 70 and 72nd that would move from 199 to 87.

I heard today that Trinity has quite a few spots open for the first time. It will be interesting to see how many contracts are signed in the Spring.

We briefly considered the suburbs but since both of us work, realised that we would miss a lot of the school activities for which you can't keep taking time off for. By staying in the City, I can easily attend almost any function (big or small) at school and feel that I am there more for the kids. It's surprising how often you go in to school! I also get home anywhere from 7 minutes to 20 minutes after leaving the office so my time is spent with the kids, not commuting.

In terms of bedrooms, our kids share a room currently and would like to contintue doing so when we move to a bigger place.

babsie, according to stevejhx's endless calculations it is way cheaper to rent than buy. If you're currently renting and keeping an eye on the market, chances are you have a lot more room for your family as a renter than you would have buying. Chances are, too, that things will improve dramatically for buyers on that regard in 1 or 2 years.

As to layouts, depending on availabilty of windows and size of the master bedroom, you can even conceive turning a Jr4 into a 3 bedroom. Of course, the 3 bedrooms would be claustrophobically small and you would have to make do with 1 bathroom. Then again, there are Jr4 listed as 1000 sq ft that only have 750. I would say that such a extreme makeover would be undoable with anything less than 1100 REAL sq ft. My goal is to get a reasonably spacious (1100 REAL SQFT OR SO) 2/2 on the UES or UWS and sacrifice the dining area to make it into 3/2. And of course I hope to pay a 2004 price for it or less, to the tune of 650K.

Time will tell

for all interested in finding more about specific public schools in NYC, the best site I've found is www.insideschools.org no affiliation.

newmom, thanks for the clarification... interesting. Rezoning + Economy... nice land sale by Trump eh?

Children? I thought you had to be vaccinated against them before moving to Manhattan.

"It seems like most families I talk to who need more space, are planning to make a move in March 2009. I would imagine that many private school families in the city are itching to get out of the expensive private school lifestyle and opt for a more simple life in a suburban community with low taxes and established public schools."

And what happens if they can't sell their apartments come March 2009?

Oh, and there is no such thing as low taxes in good school districts. In a decent district, taxes are going to be at least $10,000 a year, and that is often for older houses. Newer houses are over $15,000 a year. I own a house in the northern NJ burbs and we have people here paying over $20,000 for McMansions.

"The bottom line is that there are too many "family-sized" apartments for the number of school seats."

Not all "family sized" apartments are occupied by families. I know peope with 3 bedroom apartments and live in them by themselves with no kids.

In Brooklyn, we have relatively low taxes in general, and the "better" school districts are a steal by most suburban standards, tax-wise. I was showing a house today to a couple relocating from Chicago (sorry, Rufus!). They pay $12K in taxes there. The house I showed them has annual taxes of just $1800.

i think that no matter where you move/live in the city, you will figure it out! kids are tougher then we think, and there is no such thing as a perfect school. if you crave city living, then you're kid will grow up her fine and appreciate it. i grew up in a wealthy suburb with amazing schools, and all i ever wanted was to get the f out. we live in an area in williamsburg where the schools weren't supposed to be good, but they turned out to be great. it'll be fine!

Just moved out of the city but had one in pre-school at Washington Mkt and one in 2nd grade at 234. Saved about $13,000 this year on the WMS tution. (Yes PRE-K) 234 was a good culture and I have many many friends with kids in the school. It is over crowded and my daughters class was 26 students when we left. She was tested at the new school and was behind in everything, this was news to us because for 4 years at 234 we only heard great things from the teachers. She is currently in a class of 17 children and getting close to catching up, four months later. If you can afford PRIVATE. Do it!!

Where did you move to?

Slims - interesting. Makes me wonder how to 'benchmark' our children's progress? We are at PS89 and Im sure theyre behind but have no way to determine exactly vs. better private schools. Were not trying to overpogram them but we are a education oriented family (both ivy leaguers) and we never expected to stay in public school long and the middle schools are almost universally disastrous....that is usually the private school or leave the city decision. I cant imagine (regardless of how intelligent the children are) the odds of getting into a top private school out of PS 89. Must seriously be under 1%

It's not that hard to benchmark - simply look at the workbooks used for each grade level at your school, and do a compare. Or google...

Check out singapore math, they also have science and english.

bela - thank you. we have checked them out as well as home schooling options provide for/recommend. not that we are believers, but they have (indirectly) had to 'study' this area

nyc10023 - we have yet to find a source for what the 3rd grade curriculum (besides the overwrittend descriptions on their websites) is at brearley, dalton, horace mann, etc. if you have a source, by all means. However, when we were in grad school, downloading the syllabus off various other schools websites was easy enough and showed its the students and the environment not the curriculum - at that level (MBA) pretty much everyone uses the same underlying materials

So...back to the thread. We face in the next couple years a binary option: 1) G&T, 2) Westchester. I will add the complication that likely one child will qualify by crushing the G&T metrics and the other will fall just a few points shy of it...and of course we cant simultaneously split them between academic heaven and hell. Thus, we've looked at Bergen, Westchester and Fairfield counties school, taxes, commute, etc. For us Westchester wins (and that satement will likely lead to another 20 flame posts, but whatever) and with a 1-(impossibly small odds of good priv school admission in middle school coming from PS89) = 99+% likelihood we move out

We would prefer to live/stay in the city but private school is artificially difficult (we are children of academics, dont really play the game and cant get Sandy Weil to write our childrens recommendations) and expensive (supply/demand as everyone has stayed or moved back into the city during the recent boom)

I know plenty of people who got into privates with no connections. ie Trinity, Dalton, Horace Mann, Calhoun, Ramaz, Fieldston, Columbia Prep. They all did it on middle school level coming out of shitty public schools. Financial Aid was a harded issue. Even 1/2 off is still a good chunk and from what I heard nobody got more than 1/2 off. O I forgot to mention Manhattan Country and Riverdale Country.

Demo - just curious, where in westchester and on what points did it beat out bergen and fairfield?

demosthenes: I don't care to get too deep into this thread, but...Typical entry years K, 6 and 9 have many openings. Non entry years are usually very difficult. However, in current economic environment, you never know, it might be worth while to attempt to get your "weaker" child into private now! you only need ONE opening. If successful, deal with the "stronger" child when the time comes.

check out Great neck in LI

good thread (for change!). I am not sure what I would do when it comes time. I would prefer to stay in nyc, although I find some of those private schools on the upper east side a lot more scary than living in the suburbs and going to a normal public school. you just know everyone there has names like "chet" and "trip"...yuck.

west81, just out of curiosity - you say there is a ton of information out there about nyc schools. any particular sites that you think are good to look at?

greatschools.net

I feel the need to comment on many aspects of this forum. First, I am a public school teacher (high school math) and couldn't be happier. I teach wonderful students and get very defensive when someone says that NYC public schools are "ugly and getting uglier." Budget cuts are a reality everywhere because of the current economic problems, not just in NYC. The teachers in NYC are the most dedicated and hard-working teachers I have ever met and we educate every student to the best of our ability. I am teaching my high school students personal finance, a college course, and calculus.

On a different note, my husband and I are also looking to buy a 2 bedroom apartment (we don't have children yet, but plan for them in the coming years). We have been going to open houses all over the UES and a few on the UWS. Prices are dropping! There will be no bidding wars, trust me! Many owners are in a financial crisis and need to leave the city. Every open house we walk out of, the realtor reiterates how "motivated" and "willing" the seller is to negotiate. This never would have happened a year ago.

Please educate yourself about NYC public schools. I thought after growing up in the Boston suburbs that I would teach in NYC for a few years, get married and leave for the 'burbs, but that just isn't the case anymore. After teaching in the system for years and seeing how many improvements there are (and seeing how isolated, competitive, and lacking in culture many of the suburbs are; 3 of my siblings live there and have school-aged children), I am more interested than ever to educate my children in NYC. Obviously, the discussion of cost comes into play pretty heavily. If my husband and I are blessed with the funds to keep our kids in NYC and in a comfortable apartment for all of us, I would happily send my kids to NYC public schools all through high school.

good to know that there are teachers out there with your passion! supposedly the new stimulus bill will be providing $150 billion toward education so that should make things better.

have you been to any of my open houses?
http://web.me.com/seif69/11K/HOME.html

bela - thats great to hear, I know very few who have gone on after a PS experience...they almost all leave the city, but could just be my (sounds like more limited) experience. additionally, i left Wall st 2 years ago after 8 years and my current position/industry puts me far less in contact with colleagues likely to consider similar private schooling options. we have cruised greatschools.net, thanks for the referral....actually had to cull from 9 or 10 sources and build a spreadsheet to be objective all the data that is increasingly available about this subject. nerds, yes we are

patient09 - right you are, non-entry years are quite hard, and yes, with current displacements, we are also thinking worth a try next Fall as spots have opened up unexpectedly...and should there be a rejection/lack of availability, we still become a known quantity for the entry year app (and a long time interested party, which some like as well)

We are also considering the use of a 'consultant' I hate to even say that, but its a big game to me and I know virtually nothing about it. I wont play it, either....but I want an understanding of what people do/how to approach it. I certainly wouldnt want to do something dumb, and conversely I would want to make sure I am maximizing chances for my children. Again, I went to suburban public schools (not around nyc) and then to an ivy league and also have no history of gaming the system with hours of community service or sudden interest in the flute in 10th grade...not to suggest such efforts are inherently or frequently disingenuous, but I saw *A LOT* of that...dont even get me started

sniper - this is a very personal decision, but we decided upon a 3 tier framework: Academic, Social, and Financial, followed by site visits and experiences of/discussions with people who live there....b/c only so much can be gleaned from reports, papers, etc

Academic - I started with college placement as that is the outcome orientation, doesnt really matter what the scores are (as they become a necessary but not sufficient consition) if college placement (and here I use placement as a proxy for optionality...you dont *have* to go to harvard yale or princeton, but I suspect that if a fair proprotion of the student body is able to, then they have the widest option set) is the goal and its lacking....certain schools show great scores (and massage the data to the nth degree whether SAT/AP/etc) but tend to send a disproportionate number of students to some schools (or not) b/c of guidance counselor reltationships, history/legacy, etc. Placement data is very hard to get, and requires a lot of primary sresearch and anecdotal inference. I looked at scores/stats like SAT and AP over time figuring that even with massage, the weight of time and changing metrics and school administrations would wash some of that out....also has the effect of testing for persistence. I also looked at nice to know metrics like class size, etc but those more to make sure they werent disastrous....Im not familiar with anything solid to suggest 15 students in a class produces a better outcome than 20, and by the time you hit AP classes, they are generally relatively small anyway

Social - very subjective, but a lot of these places lack the heterogeneity I love in NYC and are obsessed with secondary (financial/materialistic) markers of professional achievement that society disproportionately rewards. Stories of spoiled rich kids and their drinking and coke (& attitude) problems abound. Sadly, thats nearly universal at any of the places we looked, but visiting the towns, the schools, and speaking with people we know in each area lead us to Westchester. My response is raise your children well and its less of an issue where you are, but its still going to present a challenge. Darien and New Canaan were like those banker horror stories where people would tell you their GPA at Princeton freshman year (which was 1987 for the person who told me at a cocktail party last year....pretty much out of the blue) and the sort. Pass. Again theres an element of that everywhere, but Westchester was as cosmopolitan as any we found if not moreso (so was Westport FWIW but the commute to NYC is deadly)

Financial - cost of living, rent vs. buy, and converting the cost of private school (full boat) into a mortgage at presumed long run avg interest rates (not the current <6% levels). Here Westchester loses to NJ (Millburn is a power to weight ratio bargain, e.g. just to name one) and CT b/c of taxes, etc....BUT my view is Id do anything for my kids, so if its more expensive, so be it...within reason. If its an issue, we found many homes renting in Westchester for far less than all in ownership....some legacy owners with low bases/low indebtedness can afford to rent you their home for far less than someone who needs to be made whole on their vintage 2007 Toll Brothers McMansion. I dont really want to use a GPS tracker to find my kids in a 6,000 SF house, either

Location I guess was an implicit factor...all these areas are within an hour of NYC...the process of commuting will suck regardless of how you look at it....we will be working in NYC for the forseeable future and Westchester wins again, especially since we go to Brooklyn a fair amount (for what amounts to a 2nd commute).

OK, i burned off my cup of coffee....sorry for the length

demo - i appreciate the post but could i ask you to be a little more thorough? just kidding. wow. you have done a great job with your homework. you should work as a family consultant for this kind of stuff. i love bedford/chappaqua area but have actually been looking in old tappan in bergen county. while buying is what we would like to do more and more data seem to point to the logical answer of renting a home for a year and stepping in 12 months down the line (or even a rent-to-own situation, if available). what do you think?

sniper - totally agree. we wouldnt buy for at least a year, probably 2-3. Seller expectations in the metro area are still unrealisitc. Even in the insulated markets of say a Scarsdale, they are just later to fall (& perhaps less than surrounding areas), but will still fall. Some of that view is a special case (we are in the business on the commercial side and could just build something/reno/add-a-level, etc...we would be very opportunisitc in our choice market conditions aside)

On a broader note, sadly, Im not sure the forward job market in many industries is sufficiently stable to warrant a home purchase - which requires a number of years (3-5+ ??) IMHO to make sense given excessive transaction costs and the opportunity cost of downpayment (no flames, everyone). Hasnt the average period of homeownership (or was it mortgage pre-payment?) shrunk from 10 years to now about 4 or 5? But the flip downside is that detached SFH is rarely available for renting for such periods so you risk becoming transient, even within your own community

i have seen a lot of higher end homes in bergen county renting for $3500-$4000 a month. that is what they are asking - they could probably be had for less. i am taking about BRAND NEW never lived-in homes that have been empty for a year or more and are 3500 sq ft and more. i am looking for a smaller home than that but unfortunately most of the smaller homes are a bit dumpier. what do you use to look up rentals in westchester?

Absent the MLS, zilpy.com or realtor.com. Zilpy pulls from multiple underlying sources and its a good aggregator. Realtor.com is usu pretty good; and b/c theres not the issue with pocket listings as there is (was!) with sales, most stuff is out there. No real 'shadow' inventory

Local newspapers are OK, but are usually re-posts of whats avail elsewhere.

I hate craigslist (jumbled pile of crap filled w/scammers...kind of like eBay) but there are craigslist aggregators out there that purport to accomplish what it cant - from geocoding to searchable organization. Ive never used them, though

Ive stoppped looking in Bergen, but what you describe is pretty attractive....$12 PSF rental is very very cheap and usually associated with denser/urban core areas worlds different from Bergen County. Sounds like theres room to negotiate, too. Id be careful about the 'Cook County' (and other areas) issue where the tenant is in the air when the landlord goes into foreclosure and potentially faces eviction. I get nervous looking at some home where you know the owner is upside down $3K+ per month *after* your rent. Beats $7K/month negative, but still is going to wear out a private individual pretty fast. Maybe put a proof of mortgage/tax payment clause in the lease? They stop paying, you stop paying? Dunno, just a guess, no experience

this one is in Norwood - brand new. Owned by the builder:

http://njmls.com/cf/details.cfm?mls_number=2903161&id=999999

I'm not ashamed to admit that I'm a child of the suburbs too, and hated the suburban thing. I went to a private school in the city (not NYC) and had a 3 hour return commute. Rubbed shoulders with some rich entitled children (who are still rich and entitled, though nice in their own way). Parenting is very important, whether you send your kids to public or private, as is peer group. If your kid is lucky enough to fall in with the geeky, earnest academic types, then they'll be just fine. Trouble is, how to ensure that ....

nyc10023, I've met a number of geeky academic types who have had the most amazingly inflated sense of self-worth and superiority. The secret is to find the nice kids, the ones with at least a modicum of sympathy and self-awareness, hopefully some humor (without excessive sarcasm). That is truly difficult, as it doesn't come naturally at the younger ages, and it doesn't seem to come naturally or otherwise among many adults as well. One can only keep trying, wherever one is. Paying attention can't hurt.

Oh my, this thread frightens me!! Ok, um so, i can answer the last question, "For those folks w/o school-aged kids, are you planning to stay in the city with kids?"
- - I think if we stay in NYC and raise children here, we most certainly will live in the city. If we have to leave manhattan (for a suburb, for instance) we would much rather leave NYC altogether and move to Philly or DC. I see no point in living here if you can't actually live HERE (but we don't have family here either).

So, I'm wondering if someone will be kind enough to define the following for me:
1) Zoned public
2) Unzoned public (variance)
3) G&T/Hunter - ( I know this is gifted and talented, but is that considered private? )

I have so much to learn about the school system and I promise to do my homework, but would be curious to know what people think of the UWS public elementary schools. Are they good? How would you rank them?

Also, anyone have any experience with The School of the Blessed Sacrament (pre-k thru 8th) on West 70th St?

uws mom. You need to check out insideschools.org - great for feed back on public schools in UWS, and also with Hunter (public not private). For the g & t / hunter or anderson, etc.. there are tests your child needs to take for entrance - check the schools website for more info, or call the schools directly for info. Back in the day (before the current baby boom in public schools), many of the better public schools had seats available, students from outside the better public schools' zone (map boundaries check out the nyc boe for maps - plug in your address to see which school is in your zone) could apply for those seats thru a process called variance. There are still some areas in Manhattan that don't have a local public school, thus unzoned. They have to apply for nearby public schools for their kids to attend.

Parentsleague.org is a great resources for the privates, but comes at a fee.

Keep asking around your neighborhood for feedback. You could also post for info on urbanbaby.com or youbemom.com - take the advice from those 2 boards with a grain of salt.

"We bought in a top school zone. No way we are getting priced out of the city. I expect 3-bedrooms in top school zones near transportation to increase in value next year, despite what all the non-owning dreamers on here say."

So, you've expecting, what, a 5% increase after the 25% decrease we just had (and whatever else we get this year)?

1) Zoned public - look at insideschools.org for more-or-less current boundaries. But due to overcrowding, don't expect to move into a good zone last minute and be able to register your child.

Good NYC schools (no particular order, Manhattan only - lots of good schools in Bk & Qns as well):
6,234,199,87,116,290,158,3,41 (there are a few more, don't remember all the #s)

2) Variance - in D3 (UWS) - it's by lottery. You put your choices down and you get informed of the lottery
results

3)G&T - OLSAT test. You register for it at the specific Borough Enrollment Office
Hunter test - SB. Register for it with Hunter, but all the "popular" testers get booked up before you can even
get in.

Remember, no point in finding out too much because everything is in flux and changes. The time to figure it out
is the summer of the calendar year that your kid is 4. Does that make sense?

Once you have narrowed it down, please visit the schools you are considering. Test scores and parental feedback don't tell the whole story - you know your child better than anyone, and you will likely be able to sense what environment will work best for him or her. Some students will excel in one school, and falter in another. Don't take word of mouth alone - your child may not be the same as all the other DDs and DSs on urbanbaby.

Best not to grow up in the City

Best to grow up, in the City or elsewhere ... which would mean, for example, not reviving five-year-old threads for no reason whatsoever. Troll.

Indeed it is good to grow up. Speaking of, since we haven't met, I just googled 'Alan Hart' and, well, it's really interesting some of your positions.

Your post made no sense.

Three kids. Plan to go to public school in the city. We bought after the financial crisis downtown (FiDi) so have enough space to raise three. Downtown schools are almost all new but initial score results very good. Not surprising given the rapidly improving neighborhood. Don't know about Middle School yet, haven't planned that far out in the future. I liked this thread so glad to see someone revive it.

Five years out things have changed so much a new thread would be warranted. pleasant stead is a troll who has never indicated whether or not it has children, and who spent the last couple of days littering the board bringing up ancient threads. It is indeed a worthwhile topic. To be fresh, given all the changes and common core issues maybe you should start a new thread. Although it seems you have your answers, at least for now.

So aboutready, you complain, but you state this is a good topic?

Where do your kids go to school?

Aboutready, where do your kids go to school?

Yes, I should. Interesting to see this thread revived, even for trollsterish reasons. None of my kids are now pre-K! All can read, all can count. We finally have another new middle school in District 3, opening fall 2015. Wisely, this is a 6-12 school and there are a lot of parents willing to first-choice it.

As for the common core, I can start another thread on that.

You are welcome