Is Toren going to be the future urban slump!

NO. These "poorer" people you're so fearful of have incomes of up to and over $100k. They're NOT poor.

You're just freaking because no one is buying at Oro and they are at Toren.

toren reserved 20% of its units for poor people? jesus christ. first, they have 80/20 for "luxury" rentals and now they have it for condos. what's next? 80/20 for plaza hotel and 15 central park west?

NYC is such a liberal shithole. they artificially raise the rent by letting poor people live in luxury buildings in manhattan. and unlike Chicago, they don't have the audacity to get rid of the massive housing projects.

Mandy - Attempting to start a class warfare and perhaps even a little bit of race baiting? As 11201 has stated, the affordable units are still very expensive and they are hardly poor. Personally, I would never agree to the limitations that are required to buy into these so called affordable units but hey, to each their own.

Note: I can't believe I responded to this obvious baiting. Shakes head, rolls eyes.

1OneWon, how was Mandy race baiting? she didn't even bring up race. you're a typical liberal who always looks for racism in any comment that offends your ideology.

I just got a killer one bed at 15 CPW. All for a mere 350K. Jealous, Rufus?

Wow, I never been hurled "you're a typical liberal who 'always' looks for racism" before. Reading in between the lines is a concept you've never heard of before?

BTW, now that I've wasted a minute of my life responding to a negative attention seeking "____tard", it's time for my missed lunch.

I wasn't even think about race religion or color I was referring to people with lesser means be allowed to live in a condo which they were eventually feel out of place and affordable(When the 20 years Tax incentives ran out). I can't bear to see them thrown out after living 20 years there. So cruel.

mandy,

i'm repeating this post, because you are not listening...you are a SNOB (your words) and you are so off-base! you really need to do your research. do you know what the income requirements are for the affordable units? do you know anyone who has purchased these units? have you talked to them personally to find out their background and income? obviously, you have not! i bought a "low-income" unit at the toren through the lottery and i am a CREATIVE DIRECTOR making six figures. i would hardly be classified as indigent or "less house proud." i'm an artistic/creative person who would uplift the neighborhood and not not bring it down. i doubt i will feel out of place living in the toren.

please restrain yourself from making unjustified comments!

Mandy, are you drunk again? Put away the bottles, everything is going to be alright. People are finaly moving into Oro. You are going to have neighbors! Please don't get them drunk too.

Mandy -

Your command of "Engrish" is abyssmal. And no, I would not want to live in close proximity to anyone who sports Roca Wear / has Ludacris on their (stolen) I-Pod.

lilbitofluck -- tell us more about your killer one-bed on CPW.

The cleanest homes I've ever seen belonged to people of very modest means. Just saying...

When you have babies running around and earning from hand to mouth keeping everyone's stomach full, bathing and clothing them are top priority. Cleaning the home is secondary if you still have the time. Esp. so for young couples without nanny or maids. That's why I said peopel with average income can be a challenge to keep a tidy home. Nothing scornful about but just reality.

.....wow

omg you are a nutter. My millionaire father has neither a maid nor used a nanny and kept his own house clean. Who raised you? Perhaps they are right - put down the bottle and take your meds please - I implore you

OH and Mandy - can't afford to live in Manhattan I see

Mandy's just bored...honey, I know the heat's not working in your building, why don't you do what the poor folks do and turn on the oven? And while you're at it, stick your head inside just to make sure it's working.

Sorry if I had steps on some future Toren's resident. It is a fact that Toren houses will never be that exclusive with lower floors owned by lower income groups.

toren is a joke. no condo or rental building that allows 20% of its units to be occupied by lower income people can be considered exclusive. further proof that Chicago is more exclusive and upscale than NYC.

As a future resident of Toren, I'm glad Mandy is living at Oro. I prefer honest, hard-working and creative people who may have less money any day over elitists who tout their superiority and fear poverty - real or imagined.

There is no such thing as an exclusive condo in Brooklyn. Just a beautiful new apartment to live in. Neuro I bet your apt is terrific. Mandy is a nutcase who is losing her shirt

Mandy, what do you care about the Toren that you need to start a thread to just bash on it? Are you not buying at the Oro? Have you figured out how to use Yahoo Groups thats been setup for the Oro? Please, spend your time over there, that is if you are even welcomed among the other Oro buyers. You really are out-of-touch. And, you're not even all that or rich to even be out-of-touch if you're buying at the Oro.

rufus ♥ Mandy = gag!

rufus, Toren got a 20 years tax rebate because it helps the city to house some of the limited income group. This group had to participate in a lucky draw in order to win a unit because there were more limited income buyers then the 20% alocated but some how there are certain sordid people who earn 6 figures income who managed to beat the system and won a unit. Unshamefully dare to brag about it here. I loath such people and to think having such people as neighbors. Nothing wrong with being poor but lack of principl lots eg cheats and liars living in Toren. Thanks God I won't be living there.

Mandy please go back to school. Learn to spell and take a basic grammar course.

Yes, HORRIBLE.

20% of that building is going to be filled with the kind of folks who would otherwise live someplace like, well, Chicago. That would certainly be a building to avoid.

Actually, I take that back... Toren's "low income" apartments are too expensive for Chicago.

The “poor” people have to make between $73K and $138K. Also the lottery apts are studios and one bedrooms so we're not talking about a family of 6. The minimum income can be lower if you have larger than a 20% down payment. I think anyone making less than $73K and still has the fortitude and discipline to save 80K should be able to allowed affordable housing.

Requirements o
Studio (10 left), Projected Price $348,480 - $382,272
Min/Max Income: $73,510 - $104,881 / $138,255.00
1 Bedroom (22 left), Projected Price $408,100 - $464,370
Min/Max Income: $90,244 - $114,114 / $138,255.00

...Also all of the "poor" people will live below the 6th floor. How much would you elitists pay for a one bedroom 3 stories above Flatbush Ave with amazing views of the Clean Spin Laundromat.

twin,

Don't know who you are but appreciate your facts.

I have been trying to explain, just from the sales figures, that all "affordable apartments" were sold at market rate for an apartment that low to the street. To say they were subsidized just didn't comport with the facts.

Be forewarned, Mandy will respond that a one bedroom will fit, at least, 10 of these poverty stricken lower class peons of society. By year end, this family unit of 10 will multiply to 15 and move out into the halls and solicit the upper class on the higher floors. Mandy is a pseudo-sociologist with a truly insightful view of the poor and indigent. Crime, prostitution, roaches, and god forbid, illegal aliens. Crime will be unleased. Get out of the Toren your life may depend on it.

it's a jungle sometimes
It makes me wonder how I keep from goin' under
It's like a jungle sometimes
It makes me wonder how I keep from goin' under

Broken glass everywhere
People pissin' on the stairs, you know they just don't care
I can't take the smell, can't take the noise
Got no money to move out, I guess I got no choice
Rats in the front room, roaches in the back
Junkies in the alley with a baseball bat
I tried to get away but I couldn't get far
'cuz a man with a tow truck repossessed my car

Don't push me 'cuz I'm close to the edge
I'm trying not to lose my head
Uh huh ha ha ha
It's like a jungle sometimes
It makes me wonder how I keep from goin' under

Standin' on the front stoop hangin' out the window
Watchin' all the cars go by, roarin' as the breezes blow
Crazy lady, livin' in a bag
Eatin' outta garbage pails, used to be a fag hag
Said she'll dance the tango, skip the light fandango
A Zircon princess seemed to lost her senses
Down at the peep show watchin' all the creeps
So she can tell her stories to the girls back home
She went to the city and got social security
She had to get a pimp, she couldn't make it on her own

Don't push me 'cuz I'm close to the edge
I'm trying not to lose my head
Uh huh ha ha ha

It's like a jungle sometimes
It makes me wonder how I keep from goin' under
It's like a jungle sometimes
It makes me wonder how I keep from goin' under

My brother's doin' fast, on my mother's TV
Says she watches too much, it's just not healthy
"All My Children" in the daytime, "Dallas" at night
Can't even see the game or the Sugar Ray fight
The bill collectors, they ring my phone
and scare my wife when I'm not home
Got a bum education, double-digit inflation
Can't take the train to the job, there's a strike at the station
Neon King Kong standin' on my back
Can't stop to turn around, broke my sacroiliac
A mid-range migraine, cancered membrane
Sometimes I think I'm goin' insane
I swear I might hijack a plane!

Don't push me 'cuz I'm close to the edge
I'm trying not to lose my head
It's like a jungle sometimes
It makes me wonder how I keep from goin' under
It's like a jungle sometimes
It makes me wonder how I keep from goin' under

My son said, Daddy, I don't wanna go to school
'cuz the teacher's a jerk, he must think I'm a fool
And all the kids smoke reefer, I think it'd be cheaper
if I just got a job, learned to be a street sweeper
Or dance to the beat, shuffle my feet
Wear a shirt and tie and run with the creeps
'cuz it's all about money, ain't a damn thing funny
You got to have a con in this land of milk and honey
They pushed that girl in front of the train
Took her to the doctor, sewed her arm on again
Stabbed that man right in his heart
Gave him a transplant for a brand new start
I can't walk through the park 'cuz it's crazy after dark
Keep my hand on my gun 'cuz they got me on the run
I feel like a outlaw, broke my last glass jaw
Hear them say "You want some more?"
Livin' on a see-saw

Don't push me 'cuz I'm close to the edge
I'm trying not to lose my head
Say what?

It's like a jungle sometimes
It makes me wonder how I keep from goin' under
It's like a jungle sometimes
It makes me wonder how I keep from goin' under

It's like a jungle sometimes
It makes me wonder how I keep from goin' under

It's like a jungle sometimes
It makes me wonder how I keep from goin' under

A child is born with no state of mind
Blind to the ways of mankind
God is smilin' on you but he's frownin' too
Because only God knows what you'll go through
You'll grow in the ghetto livin' second-rate
And your eyes will sing a song of deep hate
The places you play and where you stay
Looks like one great big alleyway
You'll admire all the number-book takers
Thugs, pimps and pushers and the big money-makers
Drivin' big cars, spendin' twenties and tens
And you'll wanna grow up to be just like them, huh
Smugglers, scramblers, burglars, gamblers
Pickpockets, peddlers, even panhandlers
You say I'm cool, huh, I'm no fool
But then you wind up droppin' outta high school
Now you're unemployed, all non-void
Walkin' round like you're Pretty Boy Floyd
Turned stick-up kid, but look what you done did
Got sent up for a eight-year bid
Now your manhood is took and you're a Maytag
Spend the next two years as a undercover fag
Bein' used and abused to serve like hell
'til one day, you was found hung dead in the cell
It was plain to see that your life was lost
You was cold and your body swung back and forth
But now your eyes sing the sad, sad song
Of how you lived so fast and died so young so...

Don't push me 'cuz I'm close to the edge
I'm trying not to lose my head
Uh huh huh huh huh

It's like a jungle sometimes
It makes me wonder how I keep from goin' under
Huh, uh huh huh huh huh
It's like a jungle sometimes
It makes me wonder how I keep from goin' under
Huh, uh huh huh huh huh

"The “poor” people have to make between $73K and $138K"

Oh, I guess Chicago people couldn't even afford that.

Quoting Grandmaster Flash, The Message. Nice.

That being said, it might be the people who bought the more expensive apartments who are the poorer ones..... now.

lower income units are not all under base which 6th floor.unit 1506 1033sf price as $489,127 which I am not happy about and I was thinking to get top floor but there is not enough closet space and no view!! north/south/west/east one that has the view north/west corner has so much angle and it's not worth it for me!! but exterior building looks great! if this building is in the manhattan it probably sold out! with low income units with different entrance just like 101 warren st. in tribeca.

chelsea,

My apartment 3304, next to nothwest corner apartment facing west has an excellent view. There is not any new construction planned that would block my view of downtown Manhattan business district with nice look at water and Brooklyn Bridge.

Now southwest corner apartments are swamped with large construction as is northern and southern view. Eastern view has a few years until Catman builds a tower adjacent to the Toren.

From what I see, 1506 is off the market and was posted as $765K asked.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/215009-condo-150-myrtle-avenue-downtown-brooklyn-brooklyn

As far as closet space, I'll be spending around nine thousand to build more closet space in both living room and bedroom.

hey junkman look at the sixth amendment unit 1506 1033sf price as $489,127 they changed it! and I agree that northwest has the best view but for me it's way too angle!! good for you!! I won't purchase w/out the view in this building! you got great one!!

chelsea,

I may have to rent unit for a year or two or three or.....since market has destroyed my net worth. When I purchase you might want to rent it from me at a below market price, whatever that is at the time. Test the wheels before purchasing, sort of speak.

As you know, I'm crazy about the building and its amenities. Just too poor to live there for a few years. I'm in discussion with one party and if that falls through, you are welcome to rent for a price you can't refuse. Just need rental income to get me through 2 years or so.

I'm 56 and want it there when my wife retires in 5 years. lol

Found every amendment but sixth. I assume it was insider deal If I recall, didn't one apartment go up as 1506 went down. Something like a trade?

Happy turkey day.

junkman sort of worry that you're unit is also block to chase building i went top floor on oro building south it's block by chase building!
and if i need to rent out i need to have 2bed. cheers!

I think it is not such a bad idea to have separate entrance and accessibility between the lower floors that houses subsidized condo and the luxury higher floor units where buyers have to pay full price. That's for security and prestige. Sharing amenities are fine with me as long as it is well kept, supervise and clean. But I wouldn't pay $750K while another pay $450K for the same unit just because they are lower income group. Why should I have to subsidized for the city's not able to house these less fortunate when I already pay high taxes.

Mandy, it has already been explained that lower units are not subsidized. Please reread thread. You are a very sad individual. You need therapy.

chelsea, too bad about the 2 bedrooms, I'm sure you would have been great tenant. As far as my view, there are two heights to the Chase building across the street. The one opposite my window is only 13 floors. The larger Chase portion is further south and doesn't impede my view.

Junkman - Are you saying the lower part of the Chase building reaches floor 13 of Toren? I was thinking it was lower.

Junkman, it is subsidy! They do not pay market price and neither will the developer or the city foot the difference. The full price payee pays more for these lower income units to be offered. You are the one that don't get it.

No. I saying that there are two parts to the Chase building on the same block facing the Toren. The largest building is directly across the southern part of the Toren and is over 30 floors, I think. This is the building with the Chase symbol on it. I feel terrible for anyone buying the apartment that looks directly at that symbol. Part of this building with the loading dock, I think, is a much smaller portion of this building that is around 13 stories high. If you have an apartment on the 15th or higher in the Toren in the 2 lines that face weston the northern part of the Toren, you can see over the building looking west.

In short, I'm saying that lower part of Chase is approximately 13 floors and you would have to be on floor 15 of the Toren to clear it comfortably.

Mandy, I read what you wrote 5 times and you're right, I don't get it.

Junk - apparently Mandy is uneducated. I can't understand her English either. It's pitiful.

ccharley, no need to speak unkind things. It just shows your upbringing and probably your mother never taught you any manners if you have one. I will be very a shamed to have a son like you. Incidentally I speak 4 other languages and writes 3. Can you?

ccharley I also bet you belong to one of those uneducated low income group who won a small studio in Toren. Thanks God I will not have a neighbor like you. It is OK to be poor but to be righteous and kind are virtues!

Mandy, I thought you were "foreign born" when I first read your comments. It was either that or you were baiting us with outrageous statements.

Your attitudes about class based on socio-economic status is contrary to what most native born Americans subscribe to. We are a more equitarian society where class boundaries are all but non-existent. That may be a stretch but they are not nearly as defined as in many other cultures, ie, Japan and India.

Basically, we are a meritocracy, with some possible exceptions, one being how a complete idiot can become President after attending Yale and Harvard, all of which he had no business attending. On the other hand, we have Bill Clinton and Barrack Obama, both who grew up poor, who through hard work and study attended prestigious schools and accomplished great things on their own merit.

Basically, what I am trying to say before going off on a tangent, is that we don't have a prescribed underclass like India's "untouchables" or Japan's "burakumin" though some of our inner cities come awfully close due to substandard housing and education .

Mandy - Are you from India and/or have/had any relationship from India in part or whole? In other words, are you Indian (the non Native American)?

Junkman, are you trying poetry as your next career? Will that pay enough to buy at Toren?
At least the suubsidized units?

I know its feeding the troll to respond to you, Mandy, but I'm off today so ...

Despite being schooled on the facts, you continue to stay dumb. Your latest analogy of people paying different prices for apartments continues the pattern where you confuse pounding your head against a brick wall with careful thought. Do you know of a concept called a market? Supply and demand? The time value of money? Here's an example, based on market conditions, I paid less for my place when I bought it in '99 than my neighbor who bought an identical unit in '03, then again I paid double what the person who sold to me paid when he bought in the early '90s. In the current market, ask someone in contract now and someone who goes into contract next fall what they they paid - for identical units. You have no point and if you are an Oro owner as some on here have suggested, you'll find out first hand when subsequent sales in your building are at lower price points than what you paid. I don't wish that on you but maybe the harsh reality of it will drive the lesson home.

Your attempt to start a class war is beyond pathetic. You keep trying to portray this as though there is some huge chasm between higher floor owners and lower floor owners, as if one group is working people and one group are welfare recipients. Here's a tidbit for you, the means testing for the lower units was asset blind - in grade school English for you - that means you could have $5,000,000 in assets, or more, but as long as your income didn't exceed $140,000 a year, you qualified for the lottery. Given the stringent lending criteria today, what's more likely? That lotto unit buyers are one step away from a trailer park or that they're well qualified buyers who found came across a unique opportunity? That's a rhetorical question (rhetorical means keep your mouth shut).

Here's one more piece of data to help you concerning why there are these units in the building to begin with.

The owners of the building, the "sellers", agreed to offer 40 units on these terms because they needed a piece of land from the city in order to be able to build as high as they wanted. They made a deal and got the building rights they needed. They could have chosen to build a smaller building or somewhere else, but capitalists that they are, they ran the numbers and decided it was more profitable and desirable to build Toren as we know it, despite having to cut a deal with the city. Capitalism, not socialism or welfare, was the engine that drove this building.

Mandy my dear - you can dish it, but cannot take it. Your comments are so grotesque. I wish people like you would leave our fine country. Not that it matters, but I am Ivy educated and don't live in Brooklyn. If you don't recognize your own bigotry I suggest you go for psychoanalysis.

It's not an enormous surprise that Mandy clearly had no one to spend Thanksgiving with.

Passed by Flatbush ave. today. The Toren is coming together nicely. Quite impressive. Construction at the Avalon development next door was in full swing. Both bldg's should auger well for the area and the current residents of Oro.

Seamus, what does auger mean?

Also,I wrote basically the same thing a couple of hours ago. Anyone walking this area can't help but be impressed as it slowly but surely takes shape. Here is what I wrote or Oro discussion:

Hoping to be your neighbor soon. Just came back from a nice walk in your lovely nabe and was shocked how fast the Avalon Bay Luxury rental building is going up. late summer is not out of possibility. Also Lazerian's 2 buildings on Tillary are also moving quickly. I'll assume same with 111 Lawrence and 80 DeKalb. Those who put nabe down will eat their words in time. Normally, I would say 5 years but with recession may be 7-8 years.

Also, City Point will start construction in January with 2 buildings, one will be tallest in Brooklyn. Yea, the nabe is coming around slowly but surely.

Never mind. I looked it up and found this:

Spelling Note

auger or augur? Do not confuse the spelling of auger and augur, which sound similar. Auger is only used as a noun, denoting a tool for boring holes. Augur can be used as a noun, denoting a foreteller of the future, or as a verb, meaning "indicate what will happen in the future": This does not augur well for the company's expansion plans.

cccharley a Ivy educated. If that is the case I am appalled at what you had learnt. Clearly nitch! Go back to school and learn some manners. By the way who are you to call others immigrant. You are one too yourseff unless you are born out of wedlock wedlock of a native Indian.Sink your filthy claws else where.

Poor poor Mandy - keep dishing. Speaking of manners. You have none. You are an open target based on your horrid posts.

I have an idea: lets introduce Mandy to Rufus...a match made in bigot heaven. And they can live happily ever after in some non-diverse suburb of Chicago with only people who look and think exactly like them.

Yes! Stepford, IL

Junkman, how do you know that Citypoint construction is starting in January? Obviously quite keen to see that happen, just wondering what your source is.

I have a question for the anti-Mandy crowd (which would pretty much be all of you except mandy!). It is real easy to disagree with her on the living habits of future owners.

However, I don't understand the repeated claims that the units in question are "market-rate" and not subsidized. 2 questions: if "market-rate" what is the benefit to the people who won the lottery? They could have just walked in off the street and bought one at the same price. Second, if NYC did indeed give them land and/or a height bonus, are you saying they in effect gave it for nothing? Since if all the units sold were "market-rate", they provided nothing of value in return for their bonus, all they did was get more apartments to sell at market prices.

I find it really hard to believe NYC would give land/height bonus or whatever for no financial consideration whatsoever.

Hey ap307,

Happy Thanksgiving. My source was the same guy who said they were changing the blueprint a few months ago. He apparently has the inside scoop. If you walk past City Point on Flatbush Ext., you will see a guy hanging out in front of the entrance guarding the site. He is there 9-5 come rain or shine. Hopefully he is correct this time around also. He made a point to tell me that it would be 2 buildings not one. Maybe, one commercial and one residential.

Modern, the advantage to the lottery participants is they got exclusive right to buy apartments that were lower priced due to floor level in the building. Sales at the Toren were brisk initially and logically, the lower priced units, on the lower floors, excepting "lottery protected" were snapped up quickly. If "lottery protected" units were on the open market they would have sold within first month. If you look at sales record, almost all the apartment from 6-10th floor are sold based on lower prices than higher floors.

All get to use super amenities, pool, sauna, health club, library, outdoor split level landscaped space, concierge etc.

With respect to height, I don't understand why that was mentioned as a tie in to "affordable apartments". Fact is, this entire corridor has an air right suspension. I believe the City had intended for the Flatbush Ext. Corridor to be more of a commercial/business corridor and not a residential/condo one. Sometimes the best laid plans....

Also when you talk bonus I assume you are referring to the tax abatement. Part of abatement may have been due to the fact that the Toren has its own generating facility and is applying for Gold certification. Toren will not use Con Ed as its primary source of electricity but only as a backup. Lower bills for residents and more efficient use of energy, in general. Wave of the future.

Mandy - please stop posting and direct your venom elsewhere. Your recent comments have gone beyond every definition of rude I have encountered. Junkman and the others on this board are clearly trying to discuss the progress (and in some cases lack thereof) of the neighborhood. Their goal is to simply exchange information. Since the goal of this forum is not to dissuade potential buyers from considering Downtown Brooklyn, I don't think your comments have been particularily helpful.

On a personal note, I am the descendant of both Native Americans (who were married to my white ancestors and their children were not illegitimate, thank you very much) and European immigrants, I cannot begin to express how overwhelmingly offensive your last statements were. Please just stop.

neurosiren,

this is a free country to discuss what ever issue of interest to me because Toren is my neighboring building. I have the right to express my concern. Unfortunately a few of you got personnal and started attacking and insulting me. Please back track this forum and you will see who started the rude attacks. If you cannot take it don't dish it out? Talking about being racist or prejudice- who was the one who told me to leave this country I have so chosen to live in? I don't like being insulted and I won't sit quietly taking Sh...t from some low live people who will easily get offended just because I commented on the down side about the building they bought into. I am not here to sabotage sales of Torn- That's the last thing I wish for. If Toren don't sell it will be a bad thing for my neighborhood. Last you don't have the right to ask me to stop writing just because you don't agree with me. This is the beauty of America. Freedom of expression!

One can always ask for the rudeness to stop. Doesn't mean it will, doesn't mean you have to, just means many wish you would. Oh, and you may speak many languages, but I doubt you can write a coherent sentence in any of them.

I didn't, and wouldn't, buy in this building, nor Oro. But for the affordable housing program, large numbers of the new developments never would have been built. That program hardly encourages tots in their nappies sucking on their momma's teats in lush abundance as the cockroaches scurry across the dirty dishes and the rats build nests in the filthy laundry as the otherwise-preoccupied welfare mother counts out her dole to her dealer for some crank.

By the way, I too have an Ivy League degree, my husband is a partner at a law firm, I have no nanny nor housekeeper, and somehow with a child I manage to keep it together and fairly clean. And, my mother raised me right, with empathy and compassion and the ability to see more than just the amount someone paid for their apartment. I can't believe I'm responding to this ignorant diatribe, I guess it barely beats out paying the bills.

Mandy my dear. I didn't tell you to leave this country as a racist comment and you very well know that. I want bigots out of my country which you are. Apparently you also cannot read either. I have no intention of living or buying in the Toren. I simply can't stand by and listen to your disgusting and distasteful tongue or tongues according to you.

Let's see, aboutready has an Ivy degree, cccharley has an Ivy degree and I graduated from Holy Trinity grammar school here in NYC.

WE all gots some mighty fine educational credentials.

> Junkman, how do you know that Citypoint construction is starting in January?

A number of articles linked to on this board have noted that the planned Citypoint is not being built.

Instead, a significantly smaller project, without much the commercial component, is taking its place....

Brownstoner,in error, had mentioned that the project was scaled down:

http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2008/11/new_building_pl.php

The Brooklyn Eagle was able the clariify as seen in the following article:

http://www.brooklyneagle.com/categories/category.php?category_id=5&id=24521

As far as January construction, my source is the day watchman. As I said earlier in the thread::

"My source was the same guy who said they were changing the blueprint a few months ago. He apparently has the inside scoop. If you walk past City Point on Flatbush Ext., you will see a guy hanging out in front of the entrance guarding the site. He is there 9-5 come rain or shine. Hopefully he is correct this time around also. He made a point to tell me that it would be 2 buildings not one. Maybe, one commercial and one residential."

He got it right the first time and was very convincing this time with his discussion of January startup.

Article I attached confirms what he said about 2 buildings, one a 17 storied commercial building and the other residential that should be much higher.

> and the other residential that should be much higher.

Doesn't sound like you read the article too well.

The 17 floor building is the "crown jewel" per Cushman. Meaning its the big one, and the one that somehow affects the "skyline". So the residential portion is even smaller. 12 stories or whatever it ends up with is quite a downscale in the project.

They're apparently changing the name to city nub.

BTW, when in the history of development has "work stopped, project will begin again in January" EVER meant that they'd be building in January....

Once you stop, the starts don't come so easy...

EW, I read the article and I must admit the comment about "crown jewel" perplexed me. We both know that you have been over to this area and have seen this giant space that is in preparation for development after demolition of the Albee Mall.

My college education has taught me to use some common sense and not take verbatim what a writer for the Brooklyn Daily has written. The space is enormous and unlimited air rights are zoned in for this area. (Flatbush Ext.) Do you really think that a 17 storied building is going to be the crown jewel in such a massive space? Are you kidding me? You are better than that. (Mark Jackson a famous Brooklynite from the neighborhood)

As I have said many many times, this area is moving on up and I will guarantee you that a building of more than 17 floors is completed on this parcel of land within the next two years. Take it too the bank. City Point is not a 17 storied building.

I'll be there in January and keep you posted.

Mandy, come back. I see that your psychotherapy has failed. Did you stop taking the medications? We'll need to do ECT (Electrocurrent therapy) on you this time. Please, we miss you here at the crazy house.

Mornin', just another day
Happy people pass my way
Lookin' in their eyes
I see a memory
I never realized
How happy you made me, oh Mandy

Well, you came and you gave without takin'
But I sent you away, oh Mandy
well, you kissed me and stopped me from shakin'
and I need you today. Oh, Mandy!

I'm standing on the edge of time
I've walked away when love was mine
Caught up in a world of uphill climbin'
The tears are in my mind
And nothin' is rhyming, oh Mandy

Well, you came and you gave without takin'
But I sent you away, oh Mandy
well, you kissed me and stopped me from shakin'
And I need you today, oh Mandy

Yesterday's a dream
I face the mornin'
Cryin' on a breeze
The pain is callin', oh Mandy

> EW,

You sure call a lot of people EW, I notice...

> I read the article and I must admit the comment about "crown jewel" perplexed me.

Yes, I don't think you have all the info down yet...

> My college education has taught me to use some common sense and not
> take verbatim what a writer for the Brooklyn Daily has written.

Common sense would generally lead one to believe that when construction has stopped, a project is not progressing.

> The space is enormous and unlimited air rights are zoned in for this area. (Flatbush Ext.) Do you
> really think that a 17 storied building is going to be the crown jewel in such a massive space? Are
> you kidding me? You are better than that. (Mark Jackson a famous Brooklynite from the neighborhood)

Junkman, its called SPIN. Of course, its not a crown jewel. But, sounds like its the closest they have.

Use that "common sense" thing you talk about... the project has been stopped, and scaled down at best. And they are still trying to talk up the smaller project, thats all...

> As I have said many many times, this area is moving on up and I will guarantee you
> that a building of more than 17 floors is completed on this parcel of land within
> the next two years. Take it too the bank. City Point is not a 17 storied building.

Thats your 3rd guarantee... and the last 2 didn't pan out so well.

I'll stick with common sense instead...

Time will tell....

I thought it did tell already - nobody building anything right now - and you were trying to convince us otherwise. ;-)

Junkman, not even Barry could help her.

Come back Mandy! The nut house is still calling. You don't have to listen to those voices in your head. The secret is they are not real. Take your meds Mandy. If they are not helping we can still give you ECT.

JUNKMAN!!! WHO ARE YOU? YOU MUST BE THE SALES PERSON YOU TOLD OTHER TOREN DISCUSSION WEB
SEE BELOW,
Junkman
about 11 weeks ago

All of us who bought early are happy since our purchase has increased in value. For example, I purchased apt.1005 four months ago for $506,000 and now 1105 is now being priced for $577,000.
NOW YOU ARE TELLING US THAT
My apartment 3304, next to nothwest corner apartment facing west has an excellent view.

GET OUT!! DON'T TRUST THIS GUY!!! SHAME ON YOU!!!!!!!!

Chelsea, I mean Sherlock Holmes, you think you have a "gotcha moment" but you don't. My fellow Torenians know that I traded up to the 33rd once I got to see the the view up there. You are behind the curve. Nice try though. Nice to see you are paying attention.

LOL, Junkman! I feel bad for you, people always mistake your zealousness for Toren to mean something more. You're just a little bit obsessive, but I do not believe you're phony.

Thanks cleanslate. Fact is I have tempered my enthusiasm the last few months.

So, do you think prices are still up from the original prices?

nyc10022,

How you doin on this cold wintery day?

They are definitely up from original prices. Obviously, prices haven't increased in the last few months and will be hard pressed to stay the same as they are now. My gut is they will wait it out and keep prices where they are since they are convinced they are priced correctly given all the amenities and the iconoclastic curtain wall. Don't envision a rollback.

Fact is, their prices are very competitive with surrounding nabe and may still be lower than most. Don't see them going to original prices any time in the near future. If times continue to be terrible over an extended time frame they will first explore closing costs ie. lawyer fees etc.

I'm good, thanks for asking. SSOs took a very nice turn today.

Interesting viewpoint.

Are they able to sell anything right now? How much of the building is sold?

I'm just looking now... listings for over $900 psf. Do you think thats competitive / "lower than most"?

Have you seen any unit going into contract since early October in Toren? I think they will be forced to lower their prices because everybody else will. There's still a lot of units to be sold, and it's not only Toren, but majority of new devs in Brooklyn, like One Brooklyn Bridge Park. How would you get rid of those units?

They have had brisk sales over the last few months.

Let me look at my records, ummmm, yes here it is, ONE.

My question is who is the person who bought in this environment? Must be someone who doesn't care about price. In economic terms "price inelastic".

nyc10022, be fair huh. If you go to the site for the Toren on StreetEasy, it has the following figures which I clipped::

MARKET DATA
102 active sales listings: $758 per ft² (avg)
23 previous sales listings: $808 per ft² (avg)

Where you getting $900?

Of course if you go to the higher floors and penthouse territory, you are in the $900's. Apartments facing West on the northwest corner are a bargain at that price over the 30th floor. Great view with no perspective block that I am aware of.

cleanslate, I think I agree with you but still not convinced about lowering of price as I am with some other buildings in the neighborhood. The biggest dud is Be@Schermerhorn. What a disaster. Avalon Bay may help purchases at Toren in the future, not now. I really think the outside landscaping at Avalon Bay may be helpful in keeping Toren prices where they are.

Not sure anymore how many units in the Toren are sold. (Actually none sold but in contract) More than 40% is a figure I'm confident with. The tremendous loss of net worth of many, myself included, makes me feel that some contracts will not close.

We live in interesting times.

in contract on streeteasy notes 83. That number was 80 months ago.

1 BBP lowered its priced substantially just a few weeks ago, and that is a pricier neighborhood (and I don't believe sells for $900 psf).

Brooklyn Bridge Park has also started a bus/van transport to and fro the subway on Court.

BBP from StreetEasy:

MARKET DATA
68 active sales listings: $1,008 per ft² (avg)
3 active rentals listings: $48 per ft² (avg)
238 previous sales listings: $989 per ft² (avg)
1 previous rentals listings: $44 per ft² (avg)
59 recorded sales: $1,067,000 (avg price)

I live in Brooklyn Heights and I wouldn't call living down, in that area, true Brooklyn Heights even if it is technically considered Heights.
Both my wife and I would rather live in the Toren location than at the Furman address down the hill. Transportation helps though.

If don't take a van, that is a bitch of a walk to subway.

Also, apartments facing water are attractive but apartments facing highway is terrible and polluted. In Toren, as I mentioned, apartments facing Northeast on Penthouse floors are a good deal. Another words, I would rather live in Toren on upper floors facing west and pay $900psf than live at BBP and pay $900 facing highway.

> Brooklyn Bridge Park has also started a bus/van transport to and fro the subway on Court.
> If don't take a van, that is a bitch of a walk to subway.

Looking at the map, the walking distance seems to be only about 50% longer than the distance of Toren to the dekalb stop. Neither is particularly next to the trains. Also, keep in mind that Boro Hall has about 3x the trains...

I figure its nice to have the options.

> so, apartments facing water are attractive but apartments facing highway is terrible and polluted

BQE vs. Flabush.... tough call. Idle cars make more pollution, so that would give the advantage to the bqe. And you can walk under it.

Here is an interesting comparison.... apartments in Trump Place (next to the river) are now selling for $840 psf...

nyc10022, don't know what map you are looking at but the distance to subway isn't even close and that doesn't include steep hill and walking towards river with cold wind in winter. It is desolate there at Furman at night. The R is a half a block away from the Toren across the street and the A is a 6-7 minute walk through a nice area called Metrotech. Transportation is a definite plus at the Toren.

Why do you think they are supplying a van to transportation?

"As a kicker, OBBP is now running an updated shuttle service (spotted this morning on Henry Street), running to and from the Clark Street and Borough Hall stations, with stops at Trader Joe's to stock up on trail mix for the bumpy ride.?

http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2008/11/obbp_the_2008_v.php

Junkman, I think the problem is that once Manhattan goes down, I am not sure how Toren will be able to justify the prices. Besides, the new devs in Park Slope are already negotiating and there's barely any action there too. I'm not sure how long they can hold on to these prices. The sales pretty much stalled for almost every new devt in Brooklyn after mid-October, barely anyone went into contract. I just don't see people jumping to sign the contracts esp for the ones that are still in development. And the layoffs are not even close to being done, some other industries will have to restructure due to this credit crisis. The advice on the job front is to stay put for the next 9-12 months to whatever the heck you're doing and hold it out.

cleanslate, as much as it pains me to say this, I agree with everything you just said.

It is a lot more fun disagreeing.

Let's see how long they can hold out. I'll surely keep you posted.

By the way, I can't wait for the day you finally commit to an apartment. That will surely be a memorable day. Of course, I'll find every way possible to dump on you for your decision. lol

Yeah, there's no way I wanna be living in OBBP. I could already hear the traffic from the units facing BQE and there's so much more construction that's gonna go on. You're pretty much isolated in that area for a long time, even if the view is great. It is also really far from the subway, that's really a drag during the winter. The most I hate about is waiting, I don't know how often that shuttle goes back and forth and what's the schedule, but it sounds really inconvenient.

Junkman, I'll give you a hint. We're really interested in Brooklyn Heights, but see no reason to hurry and outbid ourselves, so we're gonna revisit next year around Spring. :)

> nyc10022, don't know what map you are looking at but the distance to subway isn't even
> close and that doesn't include steep hill and walking towards river with cold wind in winter.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=150+Myrtle+Avenue+brooklyn,+ny&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&resnum=1&ct=title

As noted, Toren isn't much better. I've been there, and the R is not half a block. The majority of the walk to BBP would be protected from the wind by the BQE (until you pop out under the bqe). Its not perfect, but the comparison is Flatbush Manhattan bridge isn't that much different.

Not saying 1BBP doesn't have some challenges, but I think subway distance is small relative to being in a much better area and not adjacent to the projects. The 1 BBP sell is the park, which Toren just doesn't have.

These don't have to be perfect competitors, but you are talking about inventory all targeting the same population. One will have an effect on the other.

"As a kicker, OBBP is now running an updated shuttle service (spotted this morning on Henry Street), running to and from the Clark Street and Borough Hall stations, with stops at Trader Joe's to stock up on trail mix for the bumpy ride.?"

In my mind, thats a pro. Plus they say they're getting stuff in the building itself. And columbia heights is right there (which is pretty cool).

Toren doesn't have anything to shop at, except for the supermarket in the projects. City Point has stopped...

Big point is, folks will have their preferences, but you have to recognize that these projects are all interrelated.

btw, on the map, the distance from 1BBP to the stop up Joralemon is the same as going down Flatbush to the Nevins stop... so, a short block past the Dekalb stop.

You can say "2 blocks" but those are long flatbush blocks, which quickly add up to the short BH blocks.

nyc10022, to clarify... the DeKalb subway station has an entrance on the corner of Willoughby and Flatbush. Also, The A-C station on Jay and Fulton has an entrance on Jay St and Myrtle Ave. Thus, the actual distance to a subway entrance is shorter. The walk from Borough Hall to Furman is much longer.