If You Can Demonstrate Market Movement With Comps: Upper West Side Edition

473 West End Avenue "A" line. Excellent corner seven. The sale of #7A appears to be one leg of a swap with #2B, so I'm not sure how much weight it carries as a comp. I saw #7A in 2008 when it was offered for $3.095MM. It needed updating, but wasn't a wreck, so $2.25MM would be a notable price in an arm's-length transaction.
--------Recorded Sales-------------|--------Previous Listings----------
12/14/2010 # 7A $2,250,000 ......... | -
10/09/2009 #11A ....................... | . $3,200,000 3 beds 2.5 baths
11/05/2008 # 5A $2,600,000 - 5.5% | . $2,750,000 Sold 3 beds 3 baths
10/30/2008 # 2A $2,900,000 ......... | -
08/12/2008 # 5A ....................... |↓ $2,850,000 3 beds 3 baths 2,300 ft²
06/13/2008 # 7A ....................... | . $3,095,000 3 beds 2 baths 2,000 ft²
08/01/2007 #10A $3,600,000 + 0.0% | . $3,600,000 Sold 3 beds 2.5 baths 2,400 ft²
10/17/2005 #2A $2,750,000 ......... | . $2,795,000 Sold 3 beds 2.5 baths

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/529081-coop-320-central-park-west-upper-west-side-new-york
StreetEasy History
04/15/2009 Previously Listed by Stribling at $5,750,000.
08/01/2009 Stribling Listing is no longer available.
06/01/2010 Listed by Stribling at $5,995,000.
07/16/2010 Listing entered contract.
10/18/2010 Listing sold.
10/18/2010 Sale recorded for $5,700,018.

65 Central Park West
StreetEasy History
07/08/2010 Listed by Corcoran at $1,945,000.
08/23/2010 Listing entered contract.
10/22/2010 Listing sold.
10/22/2010 Sale recorded for $1,900,000.

And these comp to what, exactly? The 320 CPW sale is the first A line to sell in the ACRIS era, so is the idea that the comp is to its own asking price?

sls - it's not a "true" comp, but certainly is indicative of market trend. Going to contract so quickly and closing less than %5 below ask.

On a comps thread, comp-less sales are spam.

The penthouse lady lives in a penthouse where she lives by penthouse rules.

I don't even think those are eligible for STDMT, which is my long forgotten contrarian thread that never really took off. And not for lack of subject matter, I might add. I just got bored with it. Maybe these belong in NWT's HTUAA.

465 WEA, 2A looks like it's going to end up below 2006 basis.

2005 basis is in the offering in the next 6 months. Once it hits 2003-04, all bets are off. This mothfker is gonna burn. That's when the bubble really took off. Happy Festivus!

Cant' wait to get a 10A unit for $2MM!!!!! DAMN I'M GONNA BE OVER HOUSED! Thxs nyc10023, I was never a west of bway kinda a guy, but FK a media room? goodddddammmmiiiiittttt... I can have like 3 nubile nurses living with and giving me sponge baths when I can't get off the bed anymore! THINGS TO look forward to in my old age!

Westie: in my perfect world, I would own a 12-room duplex with lots of usable outdoor space, great light & views. Doormen who don't give me the eye, when I'm stumbling home at 2am.

The other leg of the swap at 473 WEA hit ACRIS on Thursday: #2B sold for $1.6MM, 17.1% below the sellers' 2006 basis.
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/closing/1787007
From a market movement standpoint, the best treatment for #2B and #7A is probably to ignore them. It looks as though both prices were set at the lowest level that wouldn't provoke the Board or the Department of Finance.

2/2s at http://streeteasy.com/nyc/building/263-west-end-avenue-new_york?show_all=true

12/20/2010 #10G $890,000
05/14/2010 ..#9G ...$849,000
06/01/2008 ..#8G $1,222,500
10/23/2006 ..#2G $1,140,000
05/04/2005 ..#7G ...$995,000
07/12/2004 ..#2G ...$850,000

330 West End Avenue #4A: Well-located, renovated mid-block 2/2, just reduced below owners' basis from early 2005:
05/12/2005 Previous Sale recorded for $1,215,000.
01/10/2008 Listed by Prudential Elliman at $1,495,000.
02/11/2008 Price decreased by 3% to $1,450,000.
04/19/2008 Delisted temporarily.
11/09/2010 Listed by Prudential Elliman at $1,250,000.
12/17/2010 Listing is no longer available.
01/04/2011 Re-listed by Prudential Elliman.
01/05/2011 Price decreased by 4% to $1,195,000
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/567587-coop-330-west-end-avenue-upper-west-side-new-york

#5A sold a year ago for $1.112MM (also renovated), so #4A may not have found the floor yet.

1.1 mill for that?? (sigh) Ok, I am looking at things weird because I just rented a place, but I am starting to get savings and affordability up to the 800k-900k range and I can't even imagine paying that kind of price for a place this size.

I will still admit that I just don't "get" the values of RE in this city in the last few years.

That seems like a high price in 2005, though I guess the biggest jump was from 2003 to 2005, so maybe that is about right. I have a tough time believing it could have sold for any more than that in 2008, though, when the market peaked. I think this has a ways to go considering no doorman, but I've been proven wrong many times over when I think something will sell for way below it's asking price. Biggest problem, not much decent inventory, so those who HAVE to move or have been waiting for a long time, will just jump when the number feels "right.: I bet this sells for 1.15, sadly...though shouldn't be a dollar more than $950k...renovated.

334 (a.k.a. 332) West 86th "B" line. Similar to 330 WEA: another mid-block 2BR line possibly heading back toward the $1MM mark after riding the bubble close to $1.5MM. Second full bath possible. The peak sale, #5B, only had the one full bath.
--------Recorded Sales-------------|--------Previous Listings----------
**CURRENT** # 4B ....................... |↓ $1,195,000 2 beds 1.5 baths 1,500 ft²
09/11/2008 # 5B $1,455,000 -1.4% |↓ $1,475,000 Sold 2 beds 1.5 baths 1,400 ft²
06/11/2007 #12B $1,375,000 ......... | -
08/31/2005 # 9B $1,427,000 +5.4% | . $1,350,000 Sold 2 beds 2 baths 1,500 ft²

251 West 89th (Admaston) "C" line. North- & West-facing Edwardian five condo that can be an opulent 1BR, a comfortable 2BR or even a decent 3BR with limited public space. Views are very limited, especially since the construction of 250W90 twenty years ago. Few lines illustrate the genesis and demise of the bubble quite so graphically. It's also interesting to note that the rupture didn't stop wih a return to 2004 prices in 2009 (see #11C). If the recent sale of #9C is any indication, this line may still be looking for the bottom.

--------Recorded Sales-------------|--------Previous Listings----------
12/30/2010 # 9C $1,050,000 - 4.5% |↓ $1,099,000 Sold 2 beds 2 baths 1,140 ft²
09/01/2009 #11C $1,170,000 + 0.0% |↓ $1,170,000 Sold 2 beds 2 baths 1,140 ft²
08/21/2008 # 6C $1,450,000 - 3.0% | . $1,495,000 Sold 1 bed 1 bath 1,140 ft²
03/30/2007 #10C $1,350,000 - 2.2% |↓ $1,380,000 Sold 2 beds 2 baths 1,138 ft²
06/15/2006 # 8C $1,325,000 + 6.0% | . $1,250,000 Sold 2 beds 2 baths 1,140 ft²
04/17/2006 # 7C $1,225,000 + 0.0% | . $1,225,000 Sold 2 beds 2 baths 1,140 ft²
05/17/2005 # 6C $1,199,000 + 0.0% | . $1,199,000 Sold 2 beds 2 baths 1,140 ft²
08/02/2004 #11C $1,150,000 + 5.0% | . $1,095,000 Sold 2 beds 2 baths 1,140 ft²
05/03/2004 #12C $1,150,000 +24.3% | .... $925,000 Sold 2 beds 2 baths 1,140 ft²
07/09/2002 # 6C .... $680,000 ........ |
01/22/2002 # 2C .... $525,000 + 0.0% | . $525,000 Sold 2 beds 1 bath 1,140 ft²
11/10/1999 # 8C .... $450,000 ........ |
05/25/1999 #10C .... $475,000 ........ |

565 West End Avenue "F" line. For this 1BR Deco line, the sale of #6F suggests a return to something like peak values.
---------Recorded Sales---------|---------Previous Listings---------
12/28/2010 #6F $880,000 +2.4% | . $859,000 Sold 1 bed 1 bath 950 ft²
01/07/2010 #7F $757,500 -2.3% | . $775,000 Sold 1 bed 1 bath
03/30/2009 #3F $735,000 -8.0% |↓ $799,000 Sold 1 bed 1 bath 950 ft²
12/19/2007 #7F $855,000 +3.6% | . $825,000 Sold 1 bed 1 bath 900 ft²
#4F is a different footprint - and a studio - so I excluded it.
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/building/565-west-end-avenue-new_york

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/closing/1791323

2 weeks on the market and 766/sqft for a raw studio in the RSD wind tunnel vortex is quite telling.

RSD wind tunnel vortex

now thats funny

lincoln towers jr. 4

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/489206-coop-140-west-end-avenue-lincoln-square-new-york

11/14/2005 Previously Listed by Corcoran at $599,000.
02/07/2006 Corcoran Listing sold. Last priced at $599,000.
04/04/2006 Previous Sale recorded for $590,000.
01/14/2010 Listed by Halstead Property at $649,000.
03/09/2010 Price decreased by 4% to $625,000.
05/20/2010 Price decreased by 4% to $599,000.
07/08/2010 Price decreased by 2% to $585,000.
10/15/2010 Listing is no longer available.
11/18/2010 Listing entered contract.
01/13/2011 Listing sold.
01/13/2011 Sale recorded for $550,000.

Spin: What does it tell you? Not being snarky; I just have no idea what the going PSF rate is for studios, or what it would rent for after a basic reno.

Looks like the buyers at 230 RSD live in a 1BR on the first floor. They might have bought the studio as an investment or for a family member.

the median asking price for an uws studio condo is $1,030, for what it's worth.

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sales/upper-west-side-manhattan/type:D1%7Cbeds%3C1

Westie, it tells me that properties priced right will always trade, and trade quickly, no matter if they are a wreck sponsor unit in the RSD vortex, or a preeemo 6 overlooking some museum. Will this one need 100k in renos, which would then make it unapproachable in the end? Hard to say. Maybe the new owners know what they're doing and it will cost 1/3 of that number and we'll see it back in the spring for a token amount below AR's median price. As for me, 2 weeks on the market is the real story here.

Spin: That's fine, but it doesn't say anything about market movement. Alexico sold #6J, renovated, last March for $419K. They sold #7J as a shell ten months later for $308K. Looks neutral-to-bearish to me. How much does it cost to gut renovate a 402SF apartment?

Everyone on this board knows I'm an optimist, but I call it neutral.

It's $75K for the gut reno, so either property prices have dropped 9% since last March, or (I think more likely) buyer is getting a 9% discount for the hassle of having to do the reno.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

Front_porch: That makes sense. The reason I thought it might be somewhat bearish is that the seller is the sponsor. They can do the reno cheaper, faster, and with less personal inconvenience than an owner-occupant, so they have less reason to give the buyer much of a discount for taking the apartment as-is.

Marco.... Watch and learn from your $300k studio. Oh
Excuzzzze me, studio cut up as 1bdrm. look for 2bdm to 1bdrm compression. That's when a true 2bdrm starts to bump into your all in studio buy. Coulda shoulda had a 2bdrm. Flmaozzzzzz.

I've saved it. We'll reconvene in a few months after the 30k reno and the 100k price hike.

40 West 77th Street "F" line: Museum-facing six. A dream apartment for many UWSers, although the bathrooms are small. DR converts easily to 3rd BR. The conversion to 3BR was done in #10F, which was attractively renovated with the maid's room merged into the kitchen. #8F has an updated kitchen, but the new owners still have a lot of work to do.

The drop from peak (and lack of recovery) is striking. The tricky part here is to separate market movement from the effects of condition and a maintenance increase of ~20%.
---------Recorded Sales---------|---------Previous Listings---------
12/17/2010 # 8F $2,325,000 -6.8% |↓ $2,495,000 Sold 2 beds 2.5 baths
12/05/2008 # 5F ...................... | . $3,150,000 Sold 2 beds 2.5 baths
02/27/2008 #10F $4,000,000 +0.0% | . $4,000,000 Sold 3 beds 2.5 baths 2,000 ft²
06/08/2007 # 5F ...................... |↓ $2,995,000 2 beds 2 baths
10/24/2005 #10F $3,350,000 -3.0% | . $3,450,000
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/building/40-west-77-street-new_york

-shrug- I'm not surprised that prices continue to fall for $3mm+ mkt. Can anyone guess what the $2mm+ 2bdrm mkt will look like when $3mm+ 3bdrm mkt starts clearing at $1.75mm?

Break out the abacus.

Interesting. I think that sellers of 10F in both '05 and '08 were very lucky, because, IMO that way over top dollar for a museum 6. A direct comp would be a S. facing 6 at 15W81 and I'm not sure that any have closed for 4m.

10023: If memory serves, the prime sixes at 15W81 are narrower, with just two principal rooms facing south. Also - just personally - I don't think the north face of the Museum is its best side. (I'm not that into the Planetarium.) You have to go up pretty high to get the amazing skyline/park view with the Museum in the foreground, and none of those apartments sold during the boom. Nonetheless, 15W81 #6D just sold for almost $4MM. I agree that both sales of 40W77 #10F were on the high side, but I wouldn't call them outliers.

I don't understand the prices on that block. 20W77 (lesser building, PT doorman), north facing 7 had trouble selling in the same period for mid-2s.

10023: Same year as 40W77 #10F, but a very different climate. 20W77 #4A came to market just as Lehman collapsed, then chased the market down for the next year. 20W77 #4A also featured some wacky broker tactics, like a phony sealed-bid auction, but the basic problem there was timing. 40W77 #5F might have suffered a similar drop if it hadn't been pulled. (The SE listing is tagged as SOLD, but that's not right).

The sevens at 20W77 trade pretty close to the sixes at 40W77. That's just how it is. And given the differences between the buildings and the layouts, that seems about right to me - even as a parent with three kids, who knows the value of that extra bedroom.

Then how do you explain 40W77 vs. 16W77th (even better views, more white glove)? I don't think a 6 was there exactly the same time as 10F, but in the previous year ('07 - ht of the bubble), there wasn't a 6 that hit that 4m mark.

To me, that 4m high water mark for 40W77 is a buyer who had to have very specific views of the Museum & park - didn't care about previous comps at 16W77 or didn't want to wait for or lost out on a listing in 16.

Makes sense. Probably also loved the renovation at 40W77.

streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/571143-coop-10-west-66th-street-lincoln-square-new-york
Are lower floors now worth more than higher floors, or has the uws real estate market appreciated 35-45% in the past year
28E listed for 2.395
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/closing/943433
31E sold for 1.75 last year
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/closing/903781
and 30E sold for 1.65 a year and a half ago
Does that mean I can buy 28e now at 2.4 and sell it next year for 3.5mm?

300 West End Avenue low-floor "A" line: Big bounce from the celebrity transactions of 2009? A testament to the importance of condition at the high end? Great work by a broker who knows this market really well? Maybe all of the above. The renovation of #3A was very nice and very thorough, but I thought it was already starting to show some wear, and had some quirks. I guessed wrong on this one.
---------Recorded Sales---------|---------Previous Listings---------
12/06/2010 #3A $5,750,000 + 0.0% | . $5,750,000 Sold 4 beds 4 baths 3,600 ft²
10/29/2009 #5A $3,750,000 -31.5% |↓ $5,475,000 Sold 4 beds 4.5 baths
04/16/2009 #4A $3,400,000 -17.1% |↓ $4,100,000 Sold 4 beds 4.5 baths
10/23/2006 #5A $5,187,500 - 8.2% | . $5,650,000 Sold 3 beds 3.5 baths 3,600 ft²
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/building/300-west-end-avenue-new_york

Wow. I'd go with "all of the above."

The wear is fixable, but that renovation has all the big-money hallmarks: AC, floors, slab marble in the bath, and stuff like the range hood wrapping around the corner. IIRC the just-completed reno of #4A was filed with the city for $600K, but no idea how that kind of number relates to what things actually cost. Maybe Primer05 can toss us a guess on this one.

This listing slipped by me altogether. Great photos.

And the nice three-line history we like to see:

06/11/2010 Listed by Corcoran at $5,750,000.
07/01/2010 Listing entered contract.
12/06/2010 Sale recorded for $5,750,000.

Funny thing is, the floors didn't seem to be in great shape. Don't get me wrong - they're beautiful floors; I just remember seeing some rough edges and thinking that was an odd corner to cut. Admittedly, my priorities don't fit the profile for a $6MM buyer: In an apartment with that much cross-ventilation, I'd trade the industrial cooling system (plus the lighting, sound, etc.) for perfect original floors and cabinets.

Priorities => no money? Huh? R u a nun?

Cross ventilation? Huh? Do we live in the tropics?

$1mm swings in 1 yr? Huh, healthy?

never saw this one in person. The "you walk in, you're looking at a wall, you turn the corner to go into a foyer and hang up your coat, then you do a 180 to get into the living room" would become wearing if the family had no staff -- but if there's even one person collecting coats for a party it becomes a perfect floorplan. Will be interested to see if #4A did the same things with the baths.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

Ali, good point about the 180 and stuff. I only have to do a 90 once in the door and can sit directly on the couch after hanging my coat (I hang my own coat) so this would be a step down for me.

2/2, renovated, can't tell by whom. kitchen cabinets aren't my cup of tea. quick sale. is this on NWT's thread?

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/558373-coop-515-west-end-avenue-upper-west-side-new-york

03/28/2005Previous Sale recorded for $1,300,000.
09/30/2010Listed by Stribling at $1,325,000.
10/18/2010Listing entered contract.
01/14/2011Listing sold.
01/14/2011Sale recorded for $1,325,000.

Nope, but would've, being quick with no cuts and so demonstrating acceptance of the market by the seller.

Just hit today, I think.

6 yrs at 3% inflation, 6% costs off top, $150k Reno, credit train went from 7% mortgage to 4%=> bet 99% of re financial fktards think 'hey they got out WHOLE!!!!!!!'

Raise of how many look at that listing and go think they got out 'whole'?!!

pretty one bedroom, 5F. 10F sold for $630k in 06/06, peak for the line seems to be 7F at $718k in 06/07. 12F and 8F, both appearing to be in worse condition but likely having better light (particularly 12F) sold for $550k 07/09 and $525k 01/10.

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/526411-coop-246-west-end-avenue-lincoln-square-new-york

07/24/2009Previously Listed by Deborah Fredericks at $619,000.
10/27/2009Deborah Fredericks Listing is no longer available. Last priced at $600,000.
05/20/2010Listed by Corcoran at $575,000.
09/07/2010Price decreased by 5% to $549,000.
10/12/2010Listing entered contract.
01/13/2011Listing sold.
01/13/2011Sale recorded for $524,000.

240 Riverside Boulevard (Heritage) #4A: 2BR/2.5BA with low views, at the "good" end of RSB. Closed 8.1% below Feb06 resale, though still well above original sponsor sale.
08/30/2005 Previous Sale recorded for $1,758,750.
02/21/2006 Previous Sale recorded for $2,340,000.
04/08/2010 Previously Listed by Stribling at $2,330,000.
06/16/2010 Stribling Listing is no longer available. Last priced at $2,250,000.
09/28/2010 Listed by Stribling at $2,250,000.
11/15/2010 Listing entered contract.
01/13/2011 Sale recorded for $2,150,000.
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/557685-condo-240-riverside-boulevard-lincoln-square-new-york

215 West 92nd Street #2I: Interior 2BR, closed 7.9% below 2005 acquisition price.
08/23/2005 Previous Sale recorded for $920,000.
05/14/2010 Listed by McIntosh Company at $1,100,000.
06/16/2010 Price decreased by 9% to $999,000.
07/22/2010 Price decreased by 6% to $935,000.
08/27/2010 Delisted.
09/09/2010 Re-listed by McIntosh Company.
09/14/2010 Price decreased by 4% to $899,000.
10/21/2010 Listing entered contract.
01/13/2011 Sale recorded for $847,500.
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/524720-coop-215-west-92nd-street-upper-west-side-new-york

1100 ft^2? looks more like 900. And with that long hallway, the tiny separate dining area, and the foyer, it isn't a particularly well used 900.

255 West 84th Street (Alameda) "E" line: Old-fashioned seven with two servant's rooms and open eastern views in an elegant coop with high monthlies. I saw all three of the apartments below. #12E showed beautifully; some of the renovations were tailored to a disabled occupant and may have required some tweaking after the 2008 sale. #9E was in good condition, renovated with some visible wear, and showed quite well if you didn't look too closely. The condition of #11E is harder to describe. The kitchen had been updated and the rest of the apartment was pretty well preserved. I thought it was really quite livable. Most buyers apparently disagreed, and treated #11E like a wreck, perhaps because - the infrastructure of the Alameda being what it is - doing ANYthing might require doing EVERYthing.
---------Recorded Sales---------|---------Previous Listings---------
02/04/2011 #11E $1,500,000 -11.5% |↓ $1,695,000 2 beds 2.5 baths
10/21/2009 # 9E $2,150,000 -13.8% |↓ $2,495,000 2 beds 2.5 baths 1,800 ft²
04/11/2008 #12E $2,500,000 + 2.0% |↓ $2,450,000 2 beds 3 baths 1,800 ft²

321 West 78th Street #3C: Modest, rear-facing, renovated (by earlier owner) pre-war five. Maintenance on the high side. Closed 13.4% below 2007 acquisition price.
04/03/2007 Previously Listed by Prudential Elliman at $1,150,000.
09/06/2007 Previous Sale recorded for $1,195,000.
04/24/2010 Listed by Brown Harris Stevens at $1,149,000.
05/13/2010 Listing entered contract.
08/18/2010 Re-listed by Brown Harris Stevens.
08/18/2010 Price increased by 2% to $1,175,000.
09/20/2010 Price decreased by 2% to $1,149,000.
10/12/2010 Price decreased by 9% to $1,050,000.
11/06/2010 Listing entered contract.
02/22/2011 Sale recorded for $1,035,000.
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/516870-coop-321-west-78th-street-upper-west-side-new-york

I never saw the layout of the E-line in the Alameda before. I am familiar with the A-line. I think the living area of the A line is better but it lacks the 3rd bedroom. Does the E qualify as a c7 with 2BR instead of 3? Sort of a c6.5 isn't it? I would guess ANY price in the Alameda is affected by the high maintenance.

Is the building really that fragile? Hadn't all already been fixed when it was under a perennial shroud?

West81st - if 321 W 78 - a pretty poor low floor 2 BR 1 Bth "modest rear facing" apartment is down only 13.4% from the 2007 (peak) previous sale, I would think that indicates that the market has either not collapsed as much as the bears predicted, or that the market is really coming back fairly strongly.

ph41: That's one way to interpret it. The other extreme reading would be: "Wow, even entry-level family pre-war apartments on nice blocks in the PS87 catchment are down 13.4%? Even though the conforming loan limit was raised to $729K+, where it covers more than 70% of the price with astoundingly cheap money? Even though Upper West Side pre-wars with good schools have been among the most resilient sectors in Manhattan? The market must have totally cratered."

The reality might be somewhere between the two extremes.

Check catchment for 321W78. I believe that it will be zoned for P.S. 452, effective Sept 2012.

All the things ph41 and 23 said, plus a reno with some mileage, and a 20% jump in maintenance seem like obvious culprits here. But the bigger issue may be with the unfortunate circumstance that saw a contract fall through at 1.5 in the summer. Does a property become slightly damaged goods afterwards? Then there's the 2007 transaction, I know it is what it is but I have a hard time putting much stock in peaky peak deals. I mean 1.2M for this seems overly generous even for 07.

ph41: I think the SE index puts the market down at 14% or so between these two sales dates, so this is exactly on target.

As to the badness of the outcome, it depends on your viewpoint. This person paid cash I think according to ACRIS. The costs were the $160K notional loss, $100K in transaction costs, $84K in maintenance over 3.5 years, and $160K for capital costs (that's how much $1195K would have fared if invested in a govt bond portfolio like TLT returning 3.6% anually after fees). Works out to $504K for 42 months of enjoyment, or $12K a month. The rental value of this 1100-ish sq ft low-floor 2BR is generously $4800 a month, or $202K for 42 months of enjoyment.

So by that measure, they are down $302K or 25% of the purchase price. Instead of paying $202K for use of the apartment over 42 months, they paid $504K or 2.5x what they should have paid. But to show that I'm not all dollars and cents, let me put it in terms of enjoyment. They could have been living in double the space with park views for the kind of money they spent on this, to use west81st's words, modest rear-facing small 2BR. To me, that's getting you ass handed to you.

But the beauty of RE, I guess, is that one can ignore those realities and say "down 13.4%, 'tis but a flesh wound".

inonada - totally agree with you. Big pieces people miss when they use the "13.4%, it's just a flesh wound" logic are transaction costs and higher cost of ownership for the time being from buying vs. renting.

To tie to another thread (where you thought I was crazy for considering to buy), this is exactly why (a) we're only prepared to buy something with at least a 7-10 year time horizon, so the transaction costs are less of an issue and (b) even then, only at a good price, which we have not been able to get so far.

Everyone else, sorry for the tangent.

AvUWS: I think of the format with two family bedrooms and two servants' rooms as the original, pre-WWI classic seven. It's a more common layout on the East Side. The "E" line at 255W84 is quite good, as those apartments go: you can do a lot of different things with the kitchen/foyer/servants' wing, and the main rooms are well-proportioned. "A" is actually an eight, although the second maid's room is almost always combined with the kitchen. Otherwise, the kitchen is out of scale with the rest of the apartment - for 2011, if not for 1914.

AvUWS - With regard to the infrastructure at 255W84, I believe the latest project is the elevators, which forced Corcoran to cancel an open house last Sunday.

IMO, the Alameda is like a blue-chip stock that has been beaten down by a run of bad news. I hope this "value play" works out for the buyer of #11E, because I think it's a beautiful building.

hmmm, that would explain a discrepancy from my memory and a layout of one of the floorplans I saw. In the A line, one maids room was between kitchen and the DR, was the other on the other side of the kitchen (bracketing the kitchen?

I was also in one of the ground floor apartments in that building. Wow, talk about ceiling height. Imagine an apartment with the ceiling height of the Alameda's lobby. You could add your own second floor in such a place.

Av: mezzanine! Have some respect for the architecture.

I know it would be a "mezzanine", but to me mezzanine always implied some compromise in height. I rememb er thinking that that height could accommodate a mezzanine with full height (hence calling it a 2nd floor).

211 CPW (Beresford) "J" line: These big, north-facing sixes - mostly in estate condition - haven't shown much of a bounce. Can't read too much into the sale of #2J because of the low floor. #12J might be more informative when it sells. The 2007 flip of #9J after a light facelift looks like a market top that won't be surpassed for some time.

I think #15J was the best of the bunch, because a setback at the fifteenth floor creates a little terrace off the living room. #16J was updated prior to the 2004 sale, but I think the setback at fifteen would make the living room of #16J narrower than it appears in the floorplan at http://www.corcoran.com/property/listing.aspx?Region=NYC&ListingID=733687.

--------- Recorded Sales ---------|--------- Previous Listings ---------
* CURRENT * #12J ...........................| ↓ $2,850,000 2 beds
02/22/2011 # 2J $2,800,000 - 6.7% | . $3,000,000 Sold 2 beds 3 baths 2,200 ft²
07/01/2010 # 8J $3,000,000 - 4.8% |↓ $3,150,000 Sold 2 beds 3 baths
06/24/2010 # 5J $2,925,000 - 7.1% |↓ $3,150,000 Sold 2 beds 2 baths 2,300 ft²
10/27/2009 #15J $3,060,000 + 2.2% | . $2,995,000 Sold 2 beds 2.5 baths
01/29/2008 # 9J $3,900,000 - 0.3% | . $4,000,000 Sold 2 beds 2 baths
06/04/2007 # 9J $3,391,500 +13.2% | . $2,995,000 Sold 2 beds 2 baths 2,300 ft²
12/14/2004 #16J $2,925,000 + 0.0% | . $2,925,000 Sold 2 beds 3 baths 2,300 ft²
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/building/the-beresford#building_activity

West81- your insightful comments on the J line makes 6gg's price even more
ambitious

2025 Broadway #4GHJ: Newly listed, asking 8% below the 2005 acquisition price. This one reflects a combination of market conditions, building-specific problems, and the evil genius of the previous sellers.
08/04/2005 Previous Sale recorded for $1,625,000.
03/19/2011 Listed by Heddings Property at $1,495,000.
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/591965-coop-2025-broadway-lincoln-square-new-york

WEst81st - "evil genius of the previous sellers" LOL

And the high maintenance, often a problem for combination units, certainly doesn't help. Layout, with Master bedroom accessed through living room, also not optimal.

545 West 110th Street #6A + SU25: 2BR/2BA condo, closed 10% below original 2006 sponsor sale.
10/26/2006 Previous sale recorded for $1,422,700.
11/09/2009 Listed by Halstead Property at $1,495,000.
12/23/2009 Delisted temporarily.
09/21/2010 Listed by Halstead Property at $1,375,000.
12/16/2010 Listing entered contract.
03/10/2011 Sale recorded for $1,281,000

200 West 86th #3C: Renovated 2BR/2BA coop with sunken LR below dining gallery. Now asking 18.5% below 2008 acquisition price, and 2% below 2006 prior sale.
06/28/2006 Previous Sale recorded for $1,125,000.
02/15/2008 Previous Sale recorded for $1,350,000.
10/21/2010 Listed by Halstead Property at $1,249,000.
01/24/2011 Price decreased by 4% to $1,200,000.
03/29/2011 Price decreased by 8% to $1,100,000.
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/563327-coop-200-west-86th-street-upper-west-side-new-york

West81st - even they wouldn't use that "dining gallery" as a "dining gallery" - notice that the dining table is in the living room?

I guess you could put a little bistro table in the corner, but those dining galleries never do have tables in them.

NWT - right, it's a great size for a foyer, but a very awkward place for a dining table. Better to have a nice little side table for mail with two small chairs.

i keep hearing people complain that there is no inventory, but so much of the inventory that's out there isn't really moving, even at these discounts to peak. it's still an iffy market out there.

120 Riverside Boulevard #4M: Closed 15.8% below 2006 acquisition price - a loss sufficiently steep to wipe out the owners' equity and the entire second lien, after expenses.
07/06/2006 Previous Sale recorded for $855,000.
09/20/2010 Listed by Prudential Elliman at $795,000.
01/17/2011 Price decreased by 1% to $785,000.
02/14/2011 Listing entered contract.
03/01/2011 Sale recorded for $720,000.
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/555280-condo-120-riverside-boulevard-lincoln-square-new-york
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/closing/1809756

164 West 79th Street #8D: Renovated museum-block six; just reduced to within 3% of 2004 acquisition price.
08/17/2004 Previous Sale recorded for $1,600,000.
10/02/2008 Listed by Prudential Elliman at $2,050,000.
10/17/2008 Price decreased by 8% to $1,895,000.
12/01/2008 Delisted temporarily.
11/05/2010 Listed by Prudential Elliman at $1,795,000.
11/25/2010 Price decreased by 3% to $1,739,000.
03/30/2011 Price decreased by 5% to $1,649,000.

Previous owners opened the public rooms to each other. The current owners did multiple upgrades, including the kitchen, but left the floor plan as they inherited it.
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/566560-coop-164-west-79th-street-upper-west-side-new-york

For comparison, here's the 2004 Corcoran listing:
http://www.corcoran.com/property/listing.aspx?listingid=722127&Region=NYC

Options for the kitchen wing of this apartment have been discussed recently at http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/25907-open-kitchen-vs-traditional-in-prewar-6.
The kitchen is challenging, but I think the master bath may be the intractable problem in the D line.

200 West End Avenue #10J: New construction 1BR; closed 8.1% below original sponsor sale. Possibly more noteworthy as a successful lowball than as an indicator of market movement.
02/25/2008 Previous Sale recorded for $1,077,308.
07/19/2010 Listed by Corcoran at $1,249,000.
09/29/2010 Price decreased by 4% to $1,199,000.
12/28/2010 Price decreased by 6% to $1,125,000.
02/09/2011 Listing entered contract.
03/18/2011 Sale recorded for $990,000.
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/541027-condo-200-west-end-avenue-lincoln-square-new-york

Strange listing. I don't see how the "children’s play room with outdoor space including a child-size climbing wall" adds much value to a one-bedroom apartment.

65 Central Park West "D" line: The sales of two high-floor Park-facing classic fives suggest that any bounce here spent itself a year ago. Both apartments needed substantial work. If anything, #11D was probably worse, but as a sponsor unit probably benefitted from the waiver of Board approval.
--------- Recorded Sales ---------|--------- Previous Listings ---------
03/22/2011 #12D $2,725,000 - 2.7% |↓ $2,800,000 Sold 2 beds 2 baths
05/17/2010 #11D $2,847,202 -12.4% |↓ $3,249,000 Sold 2 beds 2 baths
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/building/65-central-park-west-new_york

The listing for #11D incorrectly described the format as an Edwardian five. That's an odd mistake: Edwardian fives are generally much LESS valuable than their "classic" counterparts - especially in a case like this, where the second full bedroom faces the Park. The broker for #12D muddled matters further, calling the apartment a "Classic 5 Edwardian".

On 200 WEA, the closing date was early 2008 (the top?) but what would you guess was the contract date? Were a lot of units sold pre-construction?

Contract was 4/7/2007. The condo wasn't effective until September.

W81, on 65 CPW, could you give us a quick review on the difference between a Classic Five and an Edwardian Five? Thx.

VM1 - here's the usual composition:
C5 = living room + dining room + kitchen + two family bedrooms.
E5 = living room + dining room + kitchen + one (master) bedroom + servant's quarters.

Basically, a C5 is a C6 without the maid's room; an E5 is a C6 without the children's room.

NWT - Are you sure about that? Is your number from data other than streeteasy/ACRIS? I was under the impression (from Noah at Urbandigs) that it wasn't possible to tell from records what the contractsigning date is in new development.

It's on form RP-5217NYC (the Real Estate Transfer Report) at http://a836-acris.nyc.gov/Scripts/DocSearch.dll/ViewImage?Doc_ID=2008022800343002, the tenth page.

514 West End Avenue "B" line, renovated sponsor sales. #11B closed 11.6% below #3B despite the dramatic difference in elevation,
--------- Recorded Sales ---------|--------- Previous Listings ---------
03/22/2011 #11B .. $972,142 -2.3% |↓ $995,000 2 beds 2 baths
03/07/2007 # 3B $1,099,185 -0.1% | . $1,100,000 2 beds 2 baths
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/building/514-west-end-avenue-new_york

200 West 86th Street #18LJ: Repeat sale of terraced 3BR/4BA coop. Closed 17.1% below deceased owner's 2008 acquisition price.
01/09/2008 Previously Listed by Brown Harris Stevens at $3,750,000.
02/04/2008 Price decreased by 16% to $3,150,000.
04/16/2008 Listing entered contract.
07/01/2008 Sale recorded for $3,150,000.
11/16/2010 Listed by Corcoran at $2,600,000.
11/24/2010 Price increased by 2% to $2,650,000.
11/27/2010 Price increased by 1% to $2,675,000.
12/21/2010 Listing entered contract.
03/23/2011 Sale recorded for $2,610,000.
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/568708-coop-200-west-86th-street-upper-west-side-new-york

correct, when I do my property valuations for buyers I do NOT trust the RLS data for contract signing for comps analyzed. I always look at the RP-5217 form in ACRIS to verify contract signed date so I can do time/market adjustment.

330 West End Avenue #4A: Renovated 2BR/2BA in a mid-block non-doorman coop. Closed 11.5% below owners' 2005 acquisition price. The listing mentions new bathrooms, but that might be poetic license. #2A remains on the market, asking under $1MM.
05/12/2005 Previous Sale recorded for $1,215,000.
01/10/2008 Listed by Prudential Elliman at $1,495,000.
02/11/2008 Price decreased by 3% to $1,450,000.
04/19/2008 Delisted temporarily.
11/09/2010 Listed by Prudential Elliman at $1,250,000.
12/17/2010 Listing is no longer available.
01/04/2011 Re-listed by Prudential Elliman.
01/05/2011 Price decreased by 4% to $1,195,000.
02/16/2011 Listing entered contract.
04/07/2011 Sale recorded for $1,075,000.
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/567587-coop-330-west-end-avenue-upper-west-side-new-york

588 West End Avenue #2AB: 4BR/2.5BA combination coop, resold 9.1% above 2009 acquisition price. The sellers don't appear to have put much into the place; even the listing text is the same. I saw this apartment in 2009, but did not revisit it this year. From the listing, I would guess that the bathrooms are still as dated as they were two years ago.
04/03/2009 Listed by Brown Harris Stevens at $2,400,000.
04/29/2009 Price decreased by 4% to $2,300,000.
05/19/2009 Price decreased by 13% to $1,995,000.
07/31/2009 Listing entered contract.
11/20/2009 Previous Sale recorded for $1,860,000.
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/399263-coop-588-west-end-avenue-upper-west-side-new-york
10/19/2010 Listed by Brown Harris Stevens at $2,225,000.
12/07/2010 Price decreased by 3% to $2,150,000.
01/04/2011 Listing entered contract.
03/31/2011 Sale recorded for $2,030,000.
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/562827-coop-588-west-end-avenue-upper-west-side-new-york

2yrs. $2mm at risk. Commodities/Stk up 50%. zero profit.

Claiming you didn't lose money in nyc re, priceless.

Fking lemming finance retards.

Bah, but I shorted the market and am down 30% :)

617 West End Avenue #7AB: proposed reassembly of a full-floor, nine or ten room coop.
01/11/2011 Listed by Prudential Elliman at $3,800,000.
02/07/2011 Listing entered contract.
04/25/2011 Sale recorded for $3,750,000 ($2,862,500 + $887,500).
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/576496-coop-617-west-end-avenue-upper-west-side-new-york

I saw this one in January. It's a big project. The most recent sale of a full floor at 617 was #14AB, already combined and sold near the top of the market in 2007, for $3.99MM.

Demand for large, pre-war apartments on the Upper West Side appears to be quite strong.

Nineteen-hundred and FIRST!

That's quite a hike from the secondary bedrooms to their bathroom ... is that the way it was originally?