NYT on "rebound" in NY market

great comment and totally agree....

which article are you referring to?

sorry - found it the article....

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/19/nyregion/19market.html?_r=1&ref=nyregion&oref=slogin

But I have to say to the above two posters - exactly what indicators would you require to show that the expected serious lull/correction/whatever that you expected was not, in fact, happening? I mean, how much info do you really require before you can say "oh, I guess the real estate market in NYC for now is indeed holding up, especially in the more desirable (whatever that means) areas?" Or in your case, is it just a matter of sour grapes and bitter resentmente because you've been waiting on the sidelines for the 'big crash,' and it actually didn't (or hasn't yet) happened?

It sounds more to me like you just want to engage in schadenfreude at other's expense, and nothing could convince you otherwise....not that the NY Times should be considered the final authority by any means.

yeah, a few bonuses from the street cannot insulate the entire market in NYC...
i mean if the average joe in america is losing his/her job ans cannot make his payments and loses his/her buying power dosn't it trickle up as well?

I've been going to open houses over the past few weeks. Traffic is definitely up as compared to last October/November.

Well, yes and no. Remember, that in the case of the stock market (for instance), that the upper 1% of wealthiest americans owns 50% of the stock market, and that the upper 10% of wealthiest americans owns over 90% of the stock market. Over 70% of americans have little or no net worth at all. I'm not suggesting that either group is fully insulated from the other, but neither are they as dependant on one another as you might think (and I'm passing and judgement here, just stating basic facts). When we hear about the continuing divide between the haves and the have-nots, it's the real thing - not just a generalization. The truly wealthy which would include alot of people who are invested in the NYC housing market, and by that I mean in 'prime' locations (whatever you think that means), are truthfully not dependant on issues like rising interest rates, or their adjustable rate mortgage changing, or are worried if the value of their place dips 25% during a ral estate market correction - they're pretty well insulated and can ride that out without any problem. These people do not have to over-leverage themselves to buy real estate because they have plenty of excess cash.

Could NYC see a real estate correction in the market? Of course! But will you see the nonsense that's happening in places like Vegas and Florida where people who were not truly wealthy were leveraging themselves w-a-a-a-y out to buy and flip places, and suddenly found thenselves holding the bag, and were totally screwed, driving a desperate panicked collapse to sell out at any price? Not very likely in Manhattan.

I'm telling you now - If you can afford to buy a $5MM, or $10MM, or (in the case of the penthouse at 15CPW) a $45MM place in Manhattan, you're not really overly worried about interest rates going from 6.5% to 8.5%, or a drop in the real estate market of 25%. Would you LIKE to see that? Of course not. But it wouldn't stop you from living your day-to-day life, either.... It's a VERY DIFFERENT WORLD to the truly wealthy.

Sorry - poster #7 again - I meant to type in my first paragraph, fifth line above "...and I’m NOT passing judgement here, just stating basic facts..." - oops!

The times analysis doesn't segment the market enough. Wall Street bonuses are mostly relevant to apartments in the $1.5M and up range.

Wall street has workers of all levels - including analysts/associates. You can look at urbandigs.com and he speaks about representing many young wall streeters focused on sub 700k apartments.

I am an associate at an investment bank and with my obligations and salary at this point wouldnt feel comfortable buying anything over $900K assuming 20% down. Its just too big of a monthly (with maintenance and taxes) nut pre tax and still pretty big post. And forget about analysts. Without parents help, they're nowhere near buying a place for even $700K.

Yeah, #7, oops. Why is it that NOBODY proofreads on the Web? In a hurry, lazy, there's no excuse.

The building they bought the 1 br in 1438 third ave (Maison East) came to the market really well priced by a sponsor new to residential really trying to make a name for himself. IMO I dont think that the 1Br's are really any great shakes in 1438, but the 2br's and up are very good deals (I mean for Manahattan) and are gorgeously appointed. And it is ps 6.

I think it is very visible if you check clinton, the villages here on streeteasy. Inventoty for less then 600K goes down significantly.

CUT TO: matsonjones in leased Lexus, David Lereah book in glovebox.

No, David Lereah AUDIO BOOK

who is David Lereah?

FYI, David Lareah is the National Association or Realtors Chief Economist, according to wikipedia.

As for posters 15 and 16 - Amazing, somebody has the temerity to disagree with those who run around crying 'there's gonna be a big crash and all of Manhattan real estate will cost two cents on the dollar and the sky is falling and ohmygawd it's the end of days and won't we all laugh at those who purchased homes in Manhattan and won't it be great.....," and they're attacked by the mass lowered cro magnan foreheads of a bunch of bitter renters who don't own property, or if they do own property, are totally screwed sitting on the sidelines because they are too financially exposed to the vagaries of the market.

What a bunch of whiners. I guess it really must suck watching that your big, brilliant, razor-sharp-no-margin-for-error predictions of the Manhattan real estate market collapsing into a black hole singularity didn't actually happen, huh? No need to be so bitter. It didn't happen in 05' when you began whinging about it, it didin't happen in 06' in any marked way, and now here we are in 07'. Don't worry, poor babies, maybe in 08'. Or 09'. Or not at all, maybe. It doesn't really matter - as I said before, to those who are truly wealthy, a correction in the real estate market is like a fly landing on the back of a brontosaurus.

And to poster 12, the only thing there's no excuse for is your nitpicky, anal, OCD sensibility. Go watch your TIVO'd reruns of 'Monk' and wash your hands with industrial grade 16 molar hydrochloric acid (again).

NYT has ZERO credibility when it comes to real estate. I think they've just thrown in the towl compeltely and realized they'd better suck up to their main source of revenue - sad day for the Times.

All you investors-buy cornfields in Iowa-ethanol demand to go up

#19, not just real estate but reality in general, see Judy Miller WMD, etc.

I am one of those naysayers who believes the Real Estate market doesn't make any sense and must come further down. I had sold my place 2 yrs ago and chose to rent. Reality is I have a wife and 2 kids (one starting kindergarten), work in Investment Banking and did fairly well in 06. Our lease runs out at the end of March and instead of renting again, we are about to buy a place. Prices are still high, but are much more negotiable than at any time in the last few years (even prices at new developments). Renting vs buying decision isn't clear cut for what I am looking for (3 bedroom, 1,900+ sqr feet) and I have factored in every detail in my analysis (e.g. no deduction on monthly RE taxes due to AMT). End of the day, we found a place we really like, in a neighborhood that works for us. If I thought about it from purely an economic standpoint, wanted to be conservative and was single, I would not buy for a couple of years given the crazy run up the last 6-7 yrs, but for all of the reasons I outline above, I am just another example of why market is active again.

why buy if it doesn't make economic sense? Having a family doesn't mean you should make bad financial decisions....

#21 - you're right, what has happened to the media? I thought they were supposed to be objective? Instead the NYT cites all RE Industry insiders in this article? And yes, where were they for WMD? Disgusting.

what a bunch of jealous haters... why do you care if people decide to buy now? you're just scared that with this continuous buying activity, you'll always be priced out of Manhattan -

#23 - I didn't say it doesn't make economic sense for me to buy right now. I am a real estate M&A banker and am comfortable with my decision. As I stated, rent vs buy decision isn't clear cut in my particular case. It depends on what kind of return I assume for my lost return on cash as where real estate prices may go in 5-7 yrs when I will likely sell. Do I think the real estate market could further soften in the next couple of years as NY economy slows down? My personal opinion is yes, but this becomes a question of timing the market. As I mentioned, if I didn't have a family I would try to wait a couple of years, be more conservative and time the market based on my own personal views. However, my rental lease is running out, I want to move to be closer to my daughter's school, my wife wants to buy (its a joint decision after all), and we are buying a place my family likely won't outgrow for a long while.

We just jumped in and bought a place on the UWS based mainly on the fact that its was decision made for our family and not an investment-based decision. There sometime comes a point where the hassel of renting becomes too much and the possibility that prices will slow or even go down will not outweigh actually owning your apt. We had enough of renting places that we could not do any work to and where we would sign a lease and then have to start thinking what we would do 6 months later. I think far too many people that are criticizing people buying now are looking at it from a purely economic/investment standpoint. Not everyone uses their primary residence as their savings/retirement account. Buying now makes sense for some people and it does not make sense for others, period.

I agree with 26 and 27. I wish I was in the same market as 26, is your group hiring? i'm looking to make a career switch.

This site rules. Real estate venom spewed left and right. Your stupid for buying! Your stupid for not buying! So Manhattan. Love it.

right 29, around and around and down we goes...like water inside of a toilet bowls

i'm still looking for a 100M+ property in manhattan

#23, whats economic sense? how do you really figure that given so many variables? how do you factor in owning your own home, the sense of satisfaction, being able to shape it into what you want, or maybe it already is exactly what you want? Maybe I'm biased because I've made really nice gains on both homes I've owned (well one unrealized at the moment) and have signed to buy again, and "lost" a lot the two years I sat on the sideline, but I also felt when I was renting that I was just killing time.

the other factor that people here neglect to take into account, is that the dollar has depreiciated signifigently in the last 3 years. The real buying power of your Dollars has declined by 30-40% despite what all the geniuses at the fed keep telling you. The dollars you will repay mortgage with will be worth 1/2 of what they are worth today, as Dollar will continue to fall as America no longer is the unilateral world currency. Also Building new homes is 30-40% more expencive then it was 5 years ago. A home is a hedge against decline in buying power, especially in interntational city like NY.

that doesnt mean market cant decline 20-30%, just that in long term if you plan to live you shoul;d be ok

#22, this is interesting - I am also in investment banking, family, two young kids in the market for large 2br/3 br, and have come to the exact opposite conclusion. I am happily continuing to rent, although my lease doesn't run out til Jun 2008 (I renewed for 2 yrs last year), so maybe that's why I feel less pressure to make a buy/rent decision in the short term. Admittedly, we are probably living in a rental a bit below our means, so it's not exactly an apples/apples comparison, but still looking at the current market, the gap between what we rent and what we would pay in mortgage+monthies is not even close. I sold my last condo in 2004 and have made a very nice return in the stock market since then - much more than RE has appreciated in that time - and much more liquid as well if I ever decide to buy RE again.

I'm single 1 BR shopper, so whether or not to delve into the market has been weighing heavily on me.

I know the market cannot rise interminably. I know that past housing slumps have never skipped over New York. (Even in the worst of times, the vacany rate in New York has never been above 4 percent. So don't use that argument.) I know we've got tons of housing units entering the market. I know that Mayor Bloombucks' talk of 9 million people here in 15 years is simply ridiculous when you think about slowing immigration rates and retiring baby boomers fleeing for sunnier climes. I know that when China and Japan come asking for all of their money back, we're in for a rough ride. I know that owning costs more than renting, and that historically imbalanced markets have always corrected themselves.

But I need a home now, not five to seven years from now. Can one break even in five to seven years?

#35, you made two interesting comments. First you say you may be renting a bit below your means? Why? May I ask what you pay in rent and what kind of place? It may not be applicable but your comment made me think of parking garages and country clubs, they don't make economic sense for many but sometimes you pay for luxuries you want.

2nd, you mention your returns in the market. I'm sure you've done well but if you factor in leverage and the exemption of RE gains, did you really do better than the RE market? I bought in 2003 (granted not exact comparison to your 2004 exit), market value of my place is probably up 50% but with leverage that means my investment is up 200% and then factor in the tax exemption. You have to do awfully well in the market to have that kind of return.

To the last poster I am glad that you did well on your apartment - really. However, real estate does not make 50% in the long run. In the long run it does high single digits, less than the stock index. There are always periods that bring up the average. The fact is that your primary residence may make you some money in the long run. However, you have to live somewhere. Unless you cash out and move to a cheaper place or leverage the home you can't take advantage of the appreciation.

#33, you mention the dollar's decline....decline compared to what??? The value of the USD is relative to the value of other currencies and shouldn't have much impact on affordability of anything you buy in the US if the value of your assets/income is in USD.

#38, if you mean high single digits on the price of the apt (as oppossed to the invested capital), then you still have to multiply the return by 3-5 times to get the return on your invested capital, and then add the favorable tax situation relative to stocks. Leverage is a hugely important investment tool that is not available to a stock investor. I'm certainly not arguing that you should invest in RE to the exclusion of stocks or any other investment. I'm simply saying over time RE has been a very good investment over time (extremely good in NY over the past 10 years), and diversification is good.

As far as taking advantage of the appreciation in the short term, only an issue if you don't have other more liquid capital. You can't take care of retirement savings appreciation in the short term either, no reason not to contribute to a 401k.

#39 Comodities used to buy materials are priced in dollars. The steel, wood, coper etc has all gone up in price. The equiptement to build houses, has gone up in price. We are in a global economy, and your dollar has declined against a basket of world curencies. The point is that 1million today will be worth 500k in real buying terms in 10-15 years. The only way to hedge your risk is trough debt. The fact that America is soo in debt means that they will have no choice but to devalue your purchasing power. If you have a mortgage then you have hedged out that risk.

#41 your argument about price appreciation makes more sense if you're purchasing a newly-constructed building. Can you explain exacly how debt is used as a way to hedge your risk against inflation? And how exactly can you predict inflation going out 10-15 yrs?

Actually the $'s decline would help the NYC real estate market by encouraging more foreign investors looking for second homes.

#41, I am also interested in some more explanation about the concept of the debt hedge, thanks.

#42, why do you say it makes more sense if you're talking about new construction? I'm especially interested b/c we have just signed in a new conversion. I completely agree with your last statement, when Americans go overseas everything seems so expensive, when foreigners come here, everything seems relatively cheap, that should include RE.

42. To your first question, one cannot predict inflation. However it would be a strong probability to assume that Inflation will accelerate, as money creation is not abating. The fed keeps printing 10-13% more money every year(and with huge deficits, and national debt it is in Americas benifit to lower value of real dollars). Debt is a way to hedge inflation risk, in that if you borrow 2 million today, and pay it back in 10-15 years the value of that loan in real dollars will be considerably less then it is today. If you bought a home in 1968 for 100k and paid it back in 1986 the 100k was worth the equivelent of 10-20k in purchasing equivelent. In 1968 a corvette was 6k in 1986 it was 30k. Also locking in a rate, if inflation does spike would be a carry trade as you would be able to put your $ in short term notes and pay interest of locked in rate at todays abnormally low rates. Ie in 1980's you could get 10-14% at one point on a CD if youd locked in in 1968 a fixed loan at 5% youd be in great shape.

I think the overall replacement cost of housing is such that the cost of new units, effects existing units. Also NEW YORK is one of the few INternational cities in America, and yes to a certain degree may(no promises) skate by this RE correction. In 1990's Florida skated by a RE correction that smoked NYC. Maybee its our turn. That being said, rents vs purchase prices are out of whack and NY housing is probably 30% over valued if you calculate rents as PE. That being said we could simply hold pat whille rents accelrate. Or a combo of both to bring markets in line

The one other thing I would mention that The big hooplah about the stock market CRASH, and the SP is 5% or so from the crazy bubble highs of 6 years ago, and dow, Russel, and most indicies made new highs. This is coming from admitingly a ridiculous bubble of historic proportions(much more so then housing). Nasdaq is still off 40%. The morall here is that where speculation was crazy, those people will get whacked. In more conservative areas, even a correction is a temporary phenomena and if you LIVE somewhere then you should be ok. NYC never got to the ridiculous levels of other cities, partly because of 911 and partly because of developers short memories of 90's

Rents ARE coming more in line with purchases. I was just forced to renew my lease at a 19% increase in my beloved Macklowe building. That was the last straw and why my wife and I just plunked down are deposit on a new UES coversion. (that is so much nicer than the 3BR we are in now). I bet in 5 years, the rent on my existing apartment will be equal to the carrying costs of our new purchase-- plus it will be ours and not the generic white box we are in presently.

where you buy? I bought in the ARiel, looked at east side conversions, miraval, maison etc. I knew Billy Macklowe in High school, very nice familly.

#43, my view is that the rising commodities costs would most likely impact new construction because the developers would have to cover their costs. And because the increase in prices is only recent this would likely impact newer buildings. But I don't think it would affect the RE market as a whole.

Bought in Maison East the first day we saw it. It just blew away everything else that we looked at on the east side. Heard nothing but wonderful stories about both Ariel buildings. Hope you got in before the price increases.

#50 I think you posted on the wrong board....

I think number 50 was answering number 48.

I got 10% off of price including 5% towerds closing at ariel.

#37, I am #35 - I rent a 2br for a bit over 5K but the apts I am looking for are in the 1.8MM - 2.4MM range. The monthly difference is somewhere between 5K to 8K a month depending on the assumptions (even factoring in tax savings), so it really doesn't make sense for us to purchase now. We're willing to live in a more cramped space, knowing we are "saving" until the differential is smaller. We were fortunate to lock in a good rent when the market was soft back in 2004. In fact, the first year they threw in one month free, and when I renewed in 2005, there was no increase. I am expecting at 15%+ increase when my lease expires in 2008 so I will re-evalute then.

#53 Sweet! You made money already! (Yes, I know it doesn't mean anything till you sell but it makes you feel good when the equivalent apartment in your building is now 15% more)

#54, #37 here, thanks the response. I certainly can't argue, if you have a good short term deal thats great. My only comments are...you're living in a place thats not as nice as the place you could be living in, there's a real cost to that, in the short term fine but I hope you don't end up doing that too long, life is too short. 2nd, of course if the market rises over this time, it could get even more expensive to get the place you want. I just signed for a place for about $2.6, I could have had a similar place 3-4 years ago (when I couldn't afford it) for probably $1.5.

just one thing to note: The Ariel does not (nor has it ever) offered a discount off of the offering price. It did offer some credits towards closing costs (about 3.5%), but that ended a long time ago. I know this for a fact.

Number 57 I think #53 is trying to piss off people. Such discounts are generally not available and if one gets it you do not give out details. I got a better deal by being the first person to buy a place in a new dev, but I do not publicly state which one . Most of them will only offer a cash-back kind of a deal to help meet closing costs-nothing more.

#57 if youd like to make a bet, ill produce evidence. I paid 100k off original prospectus price(now same units higher), and I got 5% off towerds closing equaling about 8-9% off of original price if CC are incl. That being said I was very lucky, with my timing as there was a lul in sales in manhatten until Jan and I got my deal in the nic of time. They are absolutly not negotiating anymore. As for not disclosing discounts as #57 implies, is just obnaxious. The point of these boards is for the free flow of info, If I can help someone get a better deal its my right and privledge to do so. you are either a developer, or a broker as they are the ones who would wish to HIDE as much info as possible to fleece the buyer. #57 your FACTS are incorrect, accept in the fact that they NO-longer as of mid January offer discounts. I do not know if they offer % towerds closing costs.

Number 57 where is Manhatten? Looks like education and affordability has very little relationship to each other. Based on your spelling skills I doubt you bought a place.

#60, I think you meant to reply to poster #59. I agree with you - hahaha where the hell is manhatten or am I being obnaxious hahahahaha!

We are being obnaxious TOWERDS him

He should have used spelchek

I am poster #57, and I stand by my statement that the Ariel (neither East nor West) does not nor has it ever offered a discount off of the asking price. It is possible that you purchased a unit upon release and that similar units released later were priced higher, but that is all. In addition, the only way that you could have had a 5% credit towards closing costs (during the very limited time that closing cost credits were offered) would be if you had purchased one of the few smaller units that were priced under a $1MM, so that there was no mansion tax.

#57 would you like to put your money where your mouth is? I dont appreciate being called a lier. I paid 75k off original prospectus and 100k off 2nd amendemnt price. I bought one of the largest units in thebuilding. I recieved 5% off closing. Please stop making false statements, and calling people liers. You are 100% incorrect.

what's a lier? this dude has something against A's -- haha

You know how to spell very well Mr Discount getter.

This is poster #57 again. Not only do I continue to stand by my original statement, although I did not call you a liar before, you have just proved yourself to be one. Let's take a look at your postings, shall we? You claim that you obtained a unit at 10% off the asking price including a 5% closing cost credit (post #53), subsequently you claim that you obtained your unit at a discount of, somewhat confusingly, $75k (post #65) or $100K (post #59) off of the original (i.e., first release) price. Let's assume that you somehow obtained a discount equal to the larger amount, or $100K. Now let's also note that you stated that your total discount was 8-9% (post #59). If you are to be believed, then you would have had to have purchased a unit that had an original asking price of approximately $1,115,000 (9% of 1,115,000 = 100,350), which would mean that you paid approximately $1,014,650 for your unit. You also claim that you purchased one of the largest units in the building (btw, the Ariel consists of 2 buildings). With all that in mind, how do you explain the fact that the larger units in each building have an asking prices starting at least $3,750,000 (some much much higher) and that there are no units that have an offering price of $1,115,000?

hahahaha -- I believe Mr.Discount getter just got lawyered! hahaha

Brilliant cross-examination Mr. Mason! This maybe the last we hear from Mr. Discount.

I think he will call himself Mr Daescount or something

The NYTimes real estate section is totally biased towards realtors. I sold my apt in Manhattan without a broker last summer, did great, and the process was easy. They don't list those. I bought a townhouse and the purchase was "featured" in the Times with ALL WRONG INFO!!! Asking price, sale price, amt of time on market...all incorrect to make seller's broker look good.

3,635,000 -100k(apx 3% discount)+ 5% closing costs is 8%. the unit I purchased similear line prices have increased to 3,700,000 now(actually 2 weeks after I went to contract). You are probably some broker for some crap brokerage firm, so I wont waste anymore time.

This is my favorite quote from the NYT article: "However, other factors may alter New Yorkers’ renewed interest in buying real estate, including an expansion of the Iraq war"
Leave it to the New York Times to throw in a political jab anywhere they possibly can. I hardly think the average buyer in Manhattan is going to throw in the towel on their real estate search because more federal tax dollars are being thrown at the war. The NYT has zero credibility.

you are flat out, 100% wrong....no iffs and buts about it. Also up until Feb, to my understanding Ariel was still paying 3.8% towerds closing. Though I believe that is no longer the case, for some units they STILL will Pay portion of closing costs. Your statement that they stoped giving incentives long ago is completly untrue, unless long ago was 6 weeks ago.

Cat fight Cat fight rearrrrrrrrrw!

#74~don't forget the "liberal" NYT did help get us into this thing. Even with Iran it appears they are doing the same again

So we have learned the following: The Ariel buyer may not be a lier, but can't spell and the cross examiner, though smarter than I will ever be, has way to much time on his/her hands. And also tha the NYT started the war in Iraq. This site rules.

This is #57 again. Nice try, but (#72, 75 or whatever) you still are not credible. BTW, I am not a broker, nor in anyway personally associated with the real estate industry. I am indeed a lawyer, however. I would also have to agree with some others above who have chided you on your poor spelling and, I must also add, your atrocious grammar. It tends to make you seem like a cretin and certainly does not help you make your case. After all, you are supposed to be a sophisticated Manhattanite, who will soon take possession on an apartment worth close to 3-3/4 million dollars that was purchased from one of the most sophisticated and toniest developers in New York at a discount that not only has not been offered to anyone else, but has not been reflected in amendments.

Ok Mr Lawyer...wanna place a wager? I might spell poorly, when I choose not to care. However I Debunked your weak mathamatical argument. The best you had for me, was a personal attack. Typical Lawyer tactic when there are no facts to support your position. I pay alot of lawyers to worry about my grammer and spelling, so excuse me if you disapprove. However my illiteracy doesnt effect my networth, or the fact that you are wrong.

#57 here. Sure, I will take you up on a bet. Though, since gambling of this type is not legal in New York and this is a public forum, the stakes will have to be bupkis, alas. Now let's see, by your latest claim, which changed from previous claims, the developer is selling you a unit at a cost of approximately $3,650,000 minus a discount of $100,000 for a total of approximately $3,550,000. In addition, as per your claim, you are getting a 5% credit towards closing costs off of the original offering price (i.e., $3,650,000) and not the claimed purchase price (i.e., $3,550,000) - note this fact alone in and of itself is very suspect. In any event, the foregoing means that you claim the developer will be picking up your closing costs to the tune of $182,500 (5% of $3,650,000). In other words, you are claiming a discount of $100,000 and closing credits of $182,500 with respect to a unit in one of the Ariel buildings that was offered at a price of approximately $3,650,000. On the other side, I claim that this is untrue. Assuming that that accurately sums up the situation, how do you propose that we settle the disagreement? Put another way, how do we prove who will win the, and I use the term loosely, gentleman's bet?

Take that lawyer! Ariel guy rules!!

My money's on the lawyer...I've learnt that you never win against them!

Dude, you don't need to know how to spell if you can buy a 3.75MM apartment.

Depends on what law school. What client did you bill for the time it took you to write your several blogs?

Probably the next poor sap that walks into his office. We cheat the other guys and pass the savings onto you.

why not put the apartment up as stakes? if bad spelling guy wins lawyer guy picks up tabs for the apartment. if lawyer guy wins then bad spelling guy gives the lawyer guy the apartment!

How do you knwo the lawyer is a dude?

#57 here. 1) I did the posts on my own time (there is such a thing as an honest lawyer). The posts offered amusing distractions from an otherwise crazy day. All together, all the posts combined only took about 15 to 20 minutes total to compose and write. 2) Yes, I am a dude. 3) Still awaiting a response to my #81 post.

my money is on the Ariel dude.

Changed my mind. I like the lawyer better now. If he can write all that in 20 minutes, he is not only smart and insightful but extremely efficient.

The asking price was 3635000 I paid 3535000. I got 5% off towards closing costs that is reality.
The issue at hand is not the exact amount of my discount, but the fact you claim that The Ariel didn't give discounts. In your original barb you stated,
"The Ariel does not [nor has it ever) offered a discount off of the offering price. It did offer some credits towards closing costs (about 3.5%), but that ended a long time ago. I know this for a fact."
I am arguing that that is absolutely untrue. 1) I got 100k discount off of ask and 2) They are paying 5% of my closing costs. If my actual 5% was off the ask or paid price is irrelevant, and if my discount actually amounted to 7% instead of 9% is also irrelevant. As usual, as a lawyer you simply redirected the argument as you original premise was obviously incorrect. Again the Ariel gave discounts, have paid closing costs up until Feb (when my contract was signed. My discount amounted to somewhere between 260-280k with both in consideration. if I wanted to go look at my contract, I could give you exact numbers, but again they are irrelevant since the issue was The existence of any discounts, and current closing costs not if my discount was 270 or 282k. In either case give me your name and law firm and ill have my lawyer contact you. I would also suggest that the loser gives 1K to St. Jude Children's hospital as a donation. However I doubt you would keep your word. Since, you are a lawyer.

There are no honest lawyers

A lawyer named Impos Syble was shopping for a tombstone. After he had made his selection, the stonecutter asked him what inscription he would like on it.

"Here lies an honest man and a lawyer," responded the lawyer.

"Sorry, but I can't do that," replied the stonecutter. "In this state, it's against the law to bury two people in the same grave. However, I could put `here lies an honest lawyer'."

"But that won't let people know who it is!" protested the lawyer.

"Sure it will," retorted the stonecutter. "People will read it and exclaim, "That's impossible!"

#57 here again. Last post for the day, boy this is getting old. Yeah, I know lawyers are easy targets. But while much of my profession is disparaged for good reason (think of shyster, ambulance chasers), I am corporate lawyer (BTW, in response to an earlier post, my JD is from a top 10 law school). I also stand by previous statements. St. Jude's is a great facility and a more than worthy choice for a contribution. I would strongly encourage not only the "winner," but the "loser" and all observing to make a contribution there. Being that this is a public dispute on a public forum, how about that you post the relevant information (your "proof") on a web site? These days you can very easily create a web site anonymously for a de minimis amount. On the site you could post your "proof" - redacted, of course, to protect your anonymity. In turn, I will create a web site, and post relevant amendments to the offering statements, as well as other proofs. We can post the URLs on a thread on Streeteasy.com, so all can see. Deal?

I am not so savy at this web stuff, so I do not have the time or inclination to that much work to prove I am right. Where do you work? With that info and your first name I can fax you evidence. Where in Manhatten do you work?(not exactly, but apx location?)

#57, Lawyer....between all of my companies, I pay enough in legal fees to make you a partner. I am no big fan of lawyering, though some of my best friends are lawyers. The corporate legal game, has only one winner, the lawyers.

People making fun of lawyers...you guys are sheep...saw it on tv...heard my friend say it...must be funny...no one ever makes fun of the bankers and businessmen, the real crooks, I guess cause its not on TV and people can't think for themselves.

#92, what do you expect?, this is an internet board, people have been trying to figure out whether what you say is true, absent some of the suggestions you 2 have come up with lately, the only option was to examine your posts. Your words were very imprecise and you contradicted yourself several times (you originally said you got 10% off, now its more like 8, did you get 100 or 75k off prospectus price?), do you really expect people to ignore these inconsistencies when they have nothing else to go on.

That said I tend to believe you got your discount, that you've just be carefree with the explanation, not the best tact when trying to convince people but doesn't mean you're lying.

#92, your right, I am not a detail oriented person. The issue was if, I got any discount. The actuall amount was,to me, irrelevent. However, I can see how one might question my credibility based on those inconcictencies. That being said, The original prospectus price was 3,605,000 and the revised price was 36,350,000(I went to look). So my discount was against the ask, whuch was the updated price. The price now is actually higher for the apt 2 floors above(raised recently I think). Again the argument pertained to The existence of discounts, not the extent of them. So, I may have thrown out numbers, but the fact still remains that the Ariel, did provide discounts, and they also paid closing costs(3.5%-5%) up until feb. FYI my unit in East building is under signed contract section on street easy if you bring up the building. My sale price will be demonstrated when I close in the fall. So even if we dont come up with a way to demonstrate proof, eventially my position will be demonstrated. I would also assume, I wasnt the only person who got a discount and the contract prices of other homes in Ariel will demonstrate this fact come July.

Lawyers, create nothing, build nothing, and add nothing to society. They will invariable be the downfall of this great nation. There are alot of bad corporate execs, but the good ones build, employ, empower, create and have made this nation Great.

I understand the issue was if you got a discount not the amount, but those of us who were following the discussion were trying to determine if you were truthful and your inconsistencies did not help your case.