Open House Today 1:30-4:00pm - High Floor Corner 1 Bedroom - 407 Park Avenue South #18B

"As a funny aside, I met a nice person who read about my property on StreetEasy. He visited my open house and he liked my place. He told me that he does not accept all of the negative comments on this board. He also feels that people on this board are not buyers, only people who will never offer a fair price for an apartment. I have to agree with him."

so did this "nice person" make an offer or did they just come to shoot the shit about StreetEasy? (or was he looking for free cookies?)

People go out and look and they consider their options. At least this person was seriously looking for a place. We'll see how it goes. You people have no patience.

I'm not responding to the total low ball guy from the previous page. Not realistic. People can always quote outrageously low numbers and say your place is worth that. I am looking for buyers who are in the market, have looked at comparable places, and know what something is worth to them. Let them big accordingly.

sorry "bid", let them bid accordingly.

Here's another free food story for you people. I worked at a dotcom company for a while. This company bought "free" bagels, little breakfast cereal packages, etc. Well, after a while of this, I started noticing that some people were trying to live on just the free food. Some guys were making a little packet of Fruit Loops into dinner.

The food bills for this company went through the roof and they had to stop buying all this "free" food.

you have a story for everything. are you an uncle, by chance? ya know, that "uncle who has a story for everything."

god bless you if having cookies sets you back that much...because that would mean you have a tremendous amount of traffic at these open houses. i had three or four open houses and had fresh, warm cookies at every single one of them. i ended up being the one who ate most of them every week but every prospective buyer smelled them from down the hallway, loved the way it smelled when they came in and it only set me back $3 or $4 each sunday. well worth it.

(there are no dishes. toll house makes them in a pack that comes separated in squares. you don't even have to cut them from a roll!)

Crumbs and chocolate smudging all over the floor, and buyers wondering just what odor the aroma is supposed to cover up, and maybe the kitchen gets stiflingly hot. Sounds great!

I find my stories interesting and amusing, I guess you feel differently. Such is life.

Haha, the cookie war has broken out. Toll House seems low rent. I would buy artisanal cookies. To each his own. All I need is to have a buyer burn themselves on the oven. That would be great.

The "free" food I saw at the open house I went to was a pretty substantial feast. You always wondered where that 6% went, well, there it is. One broker told me that there was so much "free" food in her office that it was ridiculous and she was gaining weight.

alanhart,
Yeah, to say nothing of having cookie crumbs down the front of my dress shirt and on my nice pants. Sniper admitted that he ate most of the cookies so I guess there is not a big demand for cookies from potential buyers. Just buy an odor machine and waft some odor out into the hallway.

"i find my stories interesting and amusing"

thank you. that gave me a good laugh. a really good one.

btw, i was in no way indireclty calling you a "prick." was just trying to make a convoluted point! good luck! as a side, i love free cookies and prociutto.

jenny9823,
No no, I know that, I thought you were calling the deli guy a prick for brushed off the person who was trying to eat all of the free samples. The deli guy is a heck of a nice guy but he gets annoyed when people are abusing the free samples.

There are no free cookies. You probably overpaid for the apartment if you were tricked by the free cookies. ;-) haha. There is no free prosciutto either, not at $24.99 a pound.

sniper,
I'm glad I can bring a little laughter into your day. I may go into comedy writing.

407PAS, given that FSBOs attract less attention than broker-listed apts, have you thought about listing your apartment at an absurdly low price for a week, say $200k or b/o, to generate buzz and to see what type of offers it generates? It could inspire a bidding war, and you certainly don't have to accept any offers. Just a thought.

407pas

By the way you as the creator of this post can cancel annoying posts.
I have several in mind here ;-)

buster2056,
I'm not into games. People who search the Times can find us. We're also on Craigslist. People show up to see the place based on the ads. I'm happy with how it has been going.

It's not a game - it's trying to get a sense of a clearing price / fair market value in a thinly traded market.

hold off on the job change. i could be wrong - because i am not one by profession - but i think comedy writers put pen to paper with THE INTENTION of making people laugh.

HT1
"By the way you as the creator of this post can cancel annoying posts. I have several in mind here ;-)

I didn't know there was an option besides the "abuse" option but I haven't censored any comments on any threads I have started. I believe in free speech. People have to read both sides of the argument and make up their own minds.

sniper,
There is such a thing as self-deprecating humor.

I've bought in NYC two times, both times without a broker, so I am not a major supporter of a broker's service. I tried to sell once without a broker. It didn't work out, however, I got my price with a broker in four months. She was worth the 6% IMO. It is expensive to trade real estate in NYC, so you should move as little as possible, but you shouldn't be in denial about the utility of having some one who is smart, sales oriented and not invested in the property to represent you. After all a broker is keenly motivated and will not be offended by any criticism they hear--it's not their personal home or taste. They are never defensive; they just go for the kill. 407PAS, I've said it before, you are making a huge mistake. Greed gets in the way of good decisions sometimes, and I think you are ignoring the reality that we had a property mania, and it is over. Don't miss out on this Spring bounce. Many young people have no idea we may be in the dumps for a decade or two. You could be selling to one of them if you weren't too cheap to sell the proper way. Like I said, I'm no fan of brokers, but I can acknowledge when they are useful.

To add: my buyer was working with a broker, as many well-healed people do. I would never have seen the couple had I not been paying a commission with a listing broker. You are excluding all of those qualified buyers by doing a FSBO.

Absolutely agree with PMG. You need to sell your house during this brief, happy time, when spring is in the air, before the bill for the bailout hits the taxpayer and before another 10,000 owners decide to do the same thing. I'm not a big fan of brokers per se but in my experience they're useful for finding people ready and willing to spend cash now. People go to open houses because they're nosy or have nothing better to do or they want to compare space/finishings, etc... People talk to brokers when they want to buy.

You people never let up, do you? I am free to sell my asset as I see fit and that includes directly to an interested buyer. This may not fit your worldview but there it is. Owners sell their assets on their own all the time. Who says there is anything proper about selling with a broker?

"They are never defensive; they just go for the kill."

Yep, the brokers go for the kill and the seller is the prey. Four months? I'm not impressed by your broker. Efficient, they're not. Whether you got a good price or lost out on a net basis, you can decide on your own.

You call me greedy, but you somehow refrain from calling brokers greedy, when the brokers demand 6% of the purchase price for doing very little actual work. Their prices are too high and they will not change their business methodology. I am not forced to use their services.

As for calling me cheap, that is a cheap shot and an unfair one. I have invested money in fixing up the apartment, while a broker has never invested anything in it, and is only looking to skim money on the transaction. I think owners who fix up their properties should be rewarded, not the brokers.

"To add: my buyer was working with a broker, as many well-healed people do."

It would be "well-heeled", "heal" is what I am trying to do after running a hard road race. ;-) I'm not looking for the well-heeled individual. This is not an apartment for a rich man. This apartment is for a normal person who can do their own research and fill out their own board package.

Contrary to your opinion, almost all of the people who have come to our open house seem very interested in actually buying an apartment. They're not looking for decorating tips. A few nosy people from the people are interesting to talk to and may lead to deals with other people who live in my building.

People are tired of dealing with brokers. They often get led around to properties they do not like, are pushed into higher price brackets, get eavesdropped on, etc. Remember, buyer's brokers do not work for the buyer, they work for the seller. Why use them? The fewer brokers in a deal, the better.

I do not want broker representation. Have you not followed any of the threads that point out numerous factual errors in the broker's listings? What kind of representation is that? Poor representation. Misrepresentation. I refuse to have someone misrepresent my property because that is what they think it will take to sell it. I will sell my property honestly or I will not sell it at all.

407pas,

you need to relax. no one is claiming that you don't have the 'right' to try to sell your apartment however you want. people are making suggestions based on past experience. you posted on a message board, and you are getting messages. i can't stand most real estate brokers and i think their fees in nyc are ridiculous, but i used one to sell my apartment and it worked out great. i would never have been able to get it done on my own, and she actually convinced me to hold out for a higher price than i would have accepted. i hope it works out for you, but i also hope that this isn't a case of cutting off your nose here to spite your face.

one other thing: i think you really need to reconsider how you think about this sale. you say that after cutting your price there is 'no money left over' to pay a broker. that's very concerning to me, because it suggests that you are quite stretched financially. if you really are in a situation where only 4 or 6% of the current asking price is going to break you financially have you considered what you will do if no one will pay more than, say 450, or 400, or 350k for your apartment? i know you don't think that will happen, but you certainly have to acknowledge the possibility.

the fact is this: you are entitled to think your apartment is worth whatever you want to think it is worth, but buyers have minds of their own. i hope you haven't dug yourself into a hole where buyers have to see your apartment exactly like you do or you end up penniless.

I am completely relaxed. I don't have to put up with attacks that label me as "greedy" and "cheap", along with the insinuation that selling my apartment by myself is somehow not "proper". Nothing could be further from the truth.

My financial situation is my own private concern. It is not for discussion on this board. Buyers should express their minds by bidding what they think asset is worth. They should do this for all apartments they're bidding on. The mean people of StreetEasy land will look for bad news everywhere. Consistently naming low prices is tawdry way of launching an attack against a seller's asset. It is done all the time on this board by the malcontents who inhabit this space.

I was honestly trying to give you advice based on my experience, as well as the experience of a previous owner in my building--a condo--he priced at a fair price and had no takers FSBO for OVER A YEAR. He had his own website, like you with pictures and floorplan. It was a 900 sqft modern south facing one bedroom on a high floor with a bit of a river view. He changed direction, hired a broker, it closed in a couple of months and he got his price. Listen to this advice, or ignore it. That is your choice. I have no ill will. I am trying to steer you right. If you are offended or ignore evidence to the contrary, only you live with the consequences. It's no skin off my back. Watch the market weaken while you apartment goes unsold for all I care.

PMG,
Well, your advice didn't come across as helpful or supportive, based on your word choice and on what I perceive as personal attacks. I don't know anything about that other guy's deal. I don't know how he marketed his property or what price he was asking. It is hard to say someone got their price without knowing all the details and without taking the commission into account.

I have seen broker listed properties stay on the market for well over a year, so brokers are no guarantee of a quick sale. Brokers pushing price reductions at the same time as taking their full commission, now that is in their bag of tricks. I will abide. At this price level, I do not want a broker in the picture. Burkhardt suggested I raise my price, now that would be good for a potential buyer.

happyrenter, PMG: Don't waste your breath, it doesn't matter whether 407PAS uses a broker or not.
I posted comps above, even Superman's not selling that place at the peak-level price he insists
is his bottom line number.

407pas,

who said it wasn't 'proper' for you to try to sell your apartment yourself? don't attribute quotes to people that were never said. no one said or implied that it was improper to market the apartment yourself; people questioned whether it will be effective.

as for saying that "My financial situation is my own private concern. It is not for discussion on this board," well, if that's the case then you shouldn't start writing about your financial situation (ie there is no money left over to pay a broker). don't act as if i am the one introducing your finances into the discussion.

407PAS: Play fair. Context is everything.

PMG said:

"You could be selling to one of them if you weren't too cheap to sell the proper way."

There is your "proper" quote happyrenter. Sorry, you're wrong that nobody said it.

Give it a rest whathappened. The price is not peak level, you're just wrong there. Go throw rocks at some broker's listing.

Well, happyrenter, you seem to just miss the point that sellers under price pressure may not want to give up such a large margin to brokers, who want to make the same percentage no matter what happens in the market. I have reduced my price and I do not see competitive units in the marketplace that have my kind of features for this price. I am price competitive, something none of you would ever admit because I am selling FSBO.

saying that you don't WANT to give up the cash is completely different from saying that there is 'no money' to pay a broker. i'm sure you didn't want to cut your price at all, you'd probably be thrilled to sell your place for $12 million dollars, and none of that is relevant. it's one thing not to want to pay a broker, it's one thing to have no money with which to do so. that's concerning.

you are stuck on this idea that people are prejudiced against you for selling FSBO. on the contrary, i hope it succeeds brilliantly and i'd love to break the broker monopoly. why are you ascribing bad motives to people who just disagree that you are price competitive? it isn't possible that we simply see the market differently? i mean, you've had your apartment on the market for months and months and you haven't sold it, so apparently we aren't the only ones who don't consider your place price competitive.

My price has been adjusted to the market over time. I have not been on the market for months and months at this price. I have only been on the market with this new price for a couple of weeks. I see more demand as a result of this price cut. You don't have to believe it and we do not have to agree about whether you think I am price competitive.

Well, it is hard to figure out why I am attacked so vehemently here when I am trying to do something as simple as selling my apartment. I have no allusions that I am breaking the broker monopoly. I am just selling my place as an owner.

Mr. B, you'll have to fill in the context behind the idea to raise my price to $499k. I guess I did not follow your reasoning.

407PAS
piss on me when I'm trying to help you out if you want. I'm not a broker. I told you I avoid using brokers. I only said that their marketing effectiveness in getting market price are better in Manhattan than FSBO. My belief is that you should try to sell on your own, if you can avoid the commission, but then sell the usual way if no one bites. You are so offended by language--get over it. I think you are mostly offended that people disagree with you, and that they may have a point. Another seller in my building, the one-time condo board president tried selling his one bedroom for 825k and got no interest. He quickly hired a broker and asked $875k. He got his $875k with the effective marketing of a full line brokerage firm, and the marketing skill of a broker. I have been an owner/buyer/seller in this city for 20 years. I understand where you are coming from, and one time I agreed with you. I just think your perspective needs to be flexible. You are obviously on a mission to sell your place. I would hate to see you be defeated and hire a broker six months from now when the spring selling season is over.

PMG,
Hey, I'm not trying to attack you but I feel that you choice of words portrayed me in a bad light. Language matters. You can't use words like that without hurting people's feelings.

I can see how you're trying to help but I guess it is not convincing me. Your example shows how the addition of a broker is bad for the buyer, who winds up paying a higher price. I have seen this happen often.

Don't worry, you will not see me hire a broker to sell this property. I will not be defeated in the way you describe. I have lowered the price to generate more interest in the market and I will see what the market brings me.

My group bought 12E in 2000 and flipped it in 2001?. Slightly bigger unit I think. My recollection is we sold it for $165,000.

Your story means nothing. We are not at 2000-2001 levels of pricing.

Besides, values in buildings can change over time relative to other units in other buildings, based how well the coop manages their finances. Our building has done a good job of holding the maintenance steady while a lot of other buildings in the city have seen increases. This fact has raised our values over the past seven years.

his story means nothing? pas, what his story means is simply this: even the drastic reductions people are suggesting for you would still represent a tremendous increase in the price of this apartment over the past 8 years. you may want to sell it for nearly 500k now and think that 350k would be an insanely low price. but a year from now you may want to sell it for 350k and think that 200k is an insanely low price.

if 2001 prices are irrelevant, then, sadly, 2007 prices are also irrelevant. your apartment is only worth what someone will pay for it.

happyrenter,
I agree that my apartment is worth what someone will pay for it. I am on the market to see what someone will pay for the apartment, given all of the other apartments on the market.

Look, back in 2000-2001, the brokers preyed on our building, churning apartments at artificially low prices in order to just get their sales commissions. Unbelievable, but true. The fact that this guy could flip for a profit in such a short period of time means that the apartment was priced under market. Apartments that are sold fairly at market price cannot be flipped unless the market is hot.

We are back to what I have said numerous times. Look at other properties on the market and then talk about how much my property is worth. As Mr. B. said, context is everything. My property does not exist in a vacuum. I will not be selling my place for $350k unless I see huge drops in the prices of my competitor's apartments. So far, I have not seen these huge price drops.

"the brokers...churning out apartments..."

where were the owners? they must have had some say in this? doesn't the owner make the final decision?

sniper,
For a long time, the owners did not stand up for themselves. Finally, people got sick of the way the brokers were treating them and apartments started to be traded at more realistic price levels. Brokers are nobody's friends, they only work for themselves, and abuse both sellers and buyers.

It is a tricky situation. When you introduce brokers, you raise the prices for the buyers because of the added cost of the commission. On the other hand, a broker will always hammer a seller's price and if the seller is not strong, they often get forced into selling at a below market price.

When I go it alone, I don't have this broker commission built into my price, although I still incur costs to market my own property. I get my broker driven price hammering from the people on this board but I don't have to listen to some broker pound on me, just for his own benefit.

Talks cheap. Did you get any offers?

thank you for the lesson on theory.
i am no lover of brokers myself, as you know, but they can't be blamed for a building full of people having no backbone.
at some point the person who lets the salesman push them around has to take responsibility. if flat-out lying is involved then that is another story but being susceptible to sales "tricks" from a salesman - whose fault is that?

An old story:
In the story, a scorpion and a frog meet on the bank of a stream and the scorpion asks the frog to carry him across on its back. The frog asks, "How do I know you won't sting me?" The scorpion says, "Because if I do, I will die too." The frog is satisfied, and they set out, but in midstream, the scorpion stings the frog. The frog feels the onset of paralysis and starts to sink, knowing they both will drown, but has just enough time to gasp "Why?" Replies the scorpion: "Its my nature..."

This thread tells us quite a bit about the market. The owner is correct to point out that many broker represented apartments are languishing, almost 11,000. I think if we could agree on a point in time that represents current pricing it helps to establish a baseline. For me that point in time is 2004-2005, if you agree on say 2005, then this unit prices at approx. $380,000 dollars. If you look to 2004 then it becomes quite a bit more unpleasant.

Then we have to tackle the "elephant" in the room, the maintenance. Fact is it is about twice the amount of what would be considered par. Location, well to each his/her own. In my book we have to adjust the price to factor in the above average mnt., in years past buyers looked past this, not today.

It's a wonderful apartment with great views and great design, but why has it not sold? The market is reverting back to when I started doing this in 1990. High maintenance kept sellers away(one factor to consider), who wants to pay almost $20,000 dollars a year, before (tax deduction)? Coupled with a bubble that has burst and no one is sure where we stop on the way down. No point in getting personal, the property is unsold after at least 6 months, that tells us something, no?

The owner does make a number of personal assumptions about posters or their intentions, that's fine this is a public forum. I don't think you will find any of my comments abusive or personal. This is simply my opinion based on my perception of the market with the information I have available to me.

Perhaps I was wrong to think a broker could help you procure a speedier sale, wouldn't be the first time(or last) time I was wrong.

sniper,
So, the broker is the scorpion and it is in their nature to manipulate people, no? That's what I get out of your story. Your story illustrates exactly why I will not sign a listing agreement with one of these scorpions, uh, I mean, brokers.

Brokers have a lot of influence over sellers, remember, agents are supposed to be the real estate professionals. People listen to them, to their own detriment. Sure, the sellers are at fault, but they get taken, like so many people get taken in this game.

Real estate agents tend to be the best flippers because they have the lowest transaction costs and trade property all the time. They are also watching the market closely and know when something is below market. When they see a property below market, they flip to market.

I think it took some sales by board members who were lawyers, and sales by owners, to start setting more realistic valuations on the units.

Sniper: Nice story, I reference it often.

a good, fair post, burkie!

There are intangibles brokers can offer that are often discounted. I come at this from a point of view of thinking it is despicable how replete with conflicts of interest the RE brokerage industry is and how it tolerates this utterly unprofessional situation. A lawyer can't even have the APPEARANCE of a conflict of interest. Brokers are allowed to operate with actual conflicts of interest. Add to that many brokers are just obnoxious or dim, or not terribly informed, and that many make stuff up and come across as shifty.

That said....
Despite the oiliness of many brokers, many people still are not comfortable dealing directly with an owner. Rules of social intercourse dictate we don't insult people to their faces. How do you say to an owner, "I hate your renovation choices--this 2 year old kitchen is worthless to me because I'm going to tear it out." Or directly engage an owner on how one thinks the owner's price is grossly inflated for current market conditions? Or that the place is worn and poorly kept. Or the building smells funny. Or the crown mouldings so prominently advertised are poorly installed and have to be redone.

With 11,000 apartments to deal with, and no cost from the buy-side to using a broker, many people just feel the lack of arm's distance dealing isn't worth the discomfort. The slightest thing by the owner can put off the potential buyer. I think people are more forgiving of a seller's broker they don't like.

All the rational reasons to go FSBO are compelling. But into the mix you really have to factor these intangibles of human behavior.

yes PAS, the broker is the scorpion.
most people go into any transaction thinking "what is in this for me?" whether it is a broker, an FSBO or someone doing volunteer work they all have motives. whose fault is it if one party doesn't take the other's motives into account? just because you and i did FSBO doesn't mean that once we get to the negotiation the buyer is "in the clear" because we are nice guys who sell on our own. we need to start protecting our interests. if a broker is involved from the start there are many things they can add to the transaction. you may choose not to use them but getting angry at them and carrying so much hate for them can only come from not having a full grasp on their motives. i would think that a skilled player or negotiator could use the broker's/buyer's motives to their advantage.

There we go, more attacks from the broker community, led by Mr. Burkhardt. This is, of course, why I will never use his services or those of any of his colleagues. After all, he wouldn't represent me fairly, now would he? You only have to look at his words to find your answer.

I would not agree with Burkhardt's price point, it is self-serving, as are all broker comments.

The rule is: Brokers raise the cost of housing for everyone.

"With 11,000 apartments to deal with, and no cost from the buy-side to using a broker, many people just feel the lack of arm's distance dealing isn't worth the discomfort."

You are wrong, kylewest, there is a cost to the buyer in using a buy-side brokers. See above.

Actually, a lot of people have said they are relieved that I am not a broker. That does not speak highly of the brokerage community, now does it?

Buyers do not have to insult anyone with regards to what they do not like, they can figure those renovation costs into their bid or not bid at all. I have never insulted anyone with such comments, although I have been sorely tempted at times.

"a good, fair post, burkie!"

Hardly. nothing could be further from the truth. A self-serving, nasty post.

"Sniper: Nice story, I reference it often."

So, Burkhardt, who is the scorpion when you tell the story? The seller?

"Perhaps I was wrong to think a broker could help you procure a speedier sale, wouldn't be the first time(or last) time I was wrong."

Yep, you are wrong. Price moves apartments and the brokers are gumming up the works with their high commissions. That is a big part of the problem with the huge inventory, especially when prices are easing downwards.

A lot of brokers had better start thinking about another career.

I have to laugh, because here is a broker trying to make the argument that I should dump my apartment at a below market price.

Hilarious. Is that not what I have told you happened for a long time in our building? Do you not see why people rose up against these brokers?

we all understand that the scorpion is the broker. you are the only one not recognizing it...that is why you are so angry at the scorpion for stinging people as they take him across the river. you can't accept it for what it is. accept the scorpion for who he is, understand that he will sting you and stop yelling at him for stinging. you can't change him no matter how much you yell at him and bad-mouth him.

THE SCORPION WILL STING YOU!

Don't play with scorpions. It is simple.

don't play with scorpions.

I wanted it in capital letters and I got all lowercase. Strange.

we can play with scorpions if we want...because we know and accept that they may sting us. we are okay with that.

you, on the other hand, PAS, spend a LOT of time and energy campaigning against The Scorpions, responding and to EVERY comment in the Scorpion's campaign against you that exists only in your mind. imagine yourself standing in a room full of actual scorpions yelling at them because they won't stop stinging. that is what this thread is.

407, I don't know you, I do not know your situation... but based on your postings in this thread, you sound paranoid and deluded. As much as I am no fan of realtors, I have to agree with them in this case- as nice as your apartment may be, it is on the small side, it is in a questionable part of town and the maintenance is prohibitively high. You claim to understand what price the market is willing to pay, yet you have not received any serious offers and you rebuff any comments that your apartment is still priced too high. Well, I will join the chorus: your apartment is still priced too high. The bubble has popped and it's not coming back within our lifetimes. You can continue to delude yourself all the way down to baseline (circa 2002 pricing), or you can actually make a few extra dollars by pricing this place in accordance with the market TODAY.

"but based on your postings in this thread, you sound paranoid and deluded."

See Ad Hominem argument, for that is what you have posted:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

The apartment is priced in accordance with today's market. Please look at comparable properties in my neighborhood. I am also $10k less than a broker-represented one bedroom in my building.

The maintenance is 65% deductible, a very large tax break for the buyer, much larger than other properties on the market. Our cost structure is stable, we have not had a maintenance increase in three years and there is no maintenance increase in 2009. We refinanced the building's mortgage and the board is using the savings to keep the maintenance steady.

It is fun to argue with scorpions. It keeps me sharp, ha ha. The comments exist on this thread and in all of our minds. Everything exists in our minds and in no other place.

I have a right to respond to the outrageous attacks made by the scorpions.

hejiranyc
Oh, wait, by broker approved square footage measuring techniques, the apartment is actually 800 square feet? Does it make you feel better if I lie about the size of the apartment?

exactly - you think The Scorpions are attacking YOU when it is actually the reverse. (you use the word "attack" way too much when you describe why you have to post). The Scorpions will sting with or without YOU in the picture. That is their nature. Just as your nature is too be baited by all of them and respond every time.

Ah, sniper, my friend, never let a scorpion have the last word or people will think they have won the argument. Yes, scorpions sting all the time, it is in their nature, I agree.

If this is how PAS deals with friendly suggestions, imagine how he deals with someone who might have an interest in his apartment? All the more reason his efforts are fruitless.

there you go again - "having the last word" in an argument that you are in all by yourself.

not exactly a zen koan, but:
if you are in a fight with yourself how do you make sure that the other guy doesn't get to throw the last punch?

Trust me, scorpions attack plenty. Don't you understand why I cannot post a phone number on my listing? Because, I will be constantly harassed by the scorpions. Who is attacking whom in this case? If I ask not to be contacted by brokers and I am contacted by brokers, am I at fault?

By the way, for some unknown reason, Manhattan is the only borough that does not maintain a "do not call" list of owners who do not wish to be contacted by brokers. I do not know why. I wish they would start such a list. This "do not call" list exists in other boroughs to counter the broker's abusive practices, their continual harassment of owners.

Stay strong PAS.

patient09,
Thanks man.

"Ah, sniper, my friend, never let a scorpion have the last word or people will think they have won the argument."

this says VOLUMES.
you will go to any lengths to "WIN", as long as you are "right" and "have the last word"...even though there is nothing "to win."
"i better stick to my guns and go down with the ship otherwise the people on an anonymous posting board might think THEY were right instead of ME ME ME!"

"If this is how PAS deals with friendly suggestions, imagine how he deals with someone who might have an interest in his apartment? All the more reason his efforts are fruitless."

Actually, I am very pleasant and informative when dealing with a potential buyers. I answer all their questions, send them information on my place, give them tips about where to shop, how to commute to their jobs, etc. It's funny, lots of people seem to enjoy getting information in a straightforward manner, with no games. Even funnier is that I have been correcting erroneous information being given to potential buyers by agents working in my building.

"there you go again - "having the last word" in an argument that you are in all by yourself."

If I were in this argument alone, I would not be posting. Obviously, there are people posting their arguments against me. You'll have to go back and read the thread again.

Yes, PAS, stay strong because at this rate you will be an owner for a long time.

"If this is how PAS deals with friendly suggestions"

By the way, the suggestions are anything but friendly. They are negative attacks to drive down the value of my property and to deprive me of the ability to sell my property in the marketplace.

407PAS patience is the key here..nottom feeders want to drive down the prices but they forget that the owner can carry the apartment by renting it at below carrying cost for few years and take a small loss every month rather than take aa big hit upfront. Rather than lowering the price by 60k, i will rent the apartment and pay the rent /own negative basis for few years..till the market comes back.

did he just say "attacks" again? nah, couldn't be.
just like those damn horns that are attacking YOU when you sleep at night or the sun that attacks YOU every morning when it shines in through your window or that whining baby in the supermarket that is attacking YOU with his wailing. they are all out to get YOU. it is all about YOU.

I am not a broker for the third time. I know of three failed attempts at FSBO in manhattan--all solved by hiring a major brokerage firm. You are operating without full marketing power at your own risk. I will no longer address you, PAS, since you are resistant to information that doesn't match your opinion.

407 PAS has a high maintenance , i agree. but any day i will pay high maintenance than high price. High price makes your equity more sensitive to negative price pressure ( as the current environment). Mainenance on the other hand is not affected by prices going down/up...

407 got 0wned pretty badly.
also, my guess is if someone googles the address now, this thread will show up

my opinion: the place is 25% overpriced and brokers suck

anon - he will surely respond to you about the "owned" comment. it is his nature.

I do think it is odd that you believe I am attacking you, it's just an analysis. I have no interest in how you sell or how you price or even if you sell at all. I'm just another forum poster tossing in my 2 cents. But I think I make a relevant point regarding pricing based on empirical(historical) evidence. I have not sold or tried to sell an apartment in over a year and a half. I do rent apartments though and have posted some data about vacancy rates on my blog. www.rentrantnyc.blogspot.com

bansalpr: "the owner can carry the apartment by renting it at below carrying cost for few years and take a small loss every month"

that strategy is called "death by the cuts of 1,000 knives" or "slow bleed". The more you bleed out in negative carry every month, the higher you need to make your sale price to get you back to where you would have been if you had sold immediately. If you can't find someone to pay what you think is fair today what makes you think someone is going to pay you [fair value + bled cash] tomorrow?

sorry, that's www.NYCRentRant.blogspot.com

PMG,
Ah good, I have heard the last of your helpful suggestions. I never said you were a broker. It doesn't mean you don't post broker-like suggestions. Good for you that you know of three failed FSBO attempts. I know of three successful FSBO attempts. What have we proven? Nothing, except that sometimes it works and sometimes it does not work.

sniper
You've got to calm down. After all, you somehow managed to sell your place FSBO, even without the help of a major brokerage firm. You are my hero. It is not all about me but if you people will continue with these kind of posts then I will respond in kind.

bansalpr makes a good point. I would like to point out that the maintenance is high and the tax deductibility is high, so there is benefit there for the buyer. There seems to be overlooked all the time in these discussions. Oh, by the way, there is no flip tax in my building. That is information you have to pry out of most agents.

It is sad to say, but most people probably don't have the patience to read all of the arguments and counterarguments, so they scroll to the bottom to see who put the last post in and treat that one as containing the truth. The smarter people will weigh both sides of the argument.

80sMan, thats the value of optionality in my arguement. Given all the efforts to stabilize the housing marktet, my option of keeping the house to myself and sell later will end up in the money. i am better off taking a loss of 500 dollars a month for 10 years than to take a loss of 60k upfront due to optionality.

bansalpr, there is no optionality in your hypothetical: you don't get the price you want so you hold onto the unit, at a loss, and wait for a buyer at your price. You are doubling down the bet that you will get your price, you are paying to wait both in terms of opportunity cost and in terms of monthly outlay. You are long your house. There is no optionality (just like if you are long MSFT you do not have "optionality").

bansalpr make another good point. Thank you. Owners can outlast downturns and do not have to take outrageous lowball offers for their apartments.

Look, Mr. Burkhardt is a broker. He is going to defend his profession, no matter whether he sells apartments or not. He certainly wants to act as an agent in a real estate deal so why would anyone think that he would be able to render a fair verdict on the value of my property, when I am selling the property FSBO? It is not in his best interests to see me succeed.

I will let the market render its verdict on price and discount Mr. Burkhardt's opinion on the price, which I think is ridiculous.

"I have no interest in how you sell or how you price or even if you sell at all"

Mr Burkhardt,
If this is true, why do you keep offering to represent my apartment when I have never, not even once, asked you do such a thing? Your words are disingenuous.

407 PAS apologies for taking your post in different direction but i want to make a point clear to all buyers and 80sMan. 80sMan, i am not only long my house but also long the option on housing market. The housing market is being affected by outside forces ( such as govt, credit crunch, legislation etc). Most of these forces are trying to stabilize and jump start the housing market. I am long the option on these forces. This housing downturn is dfferent from previous ones as this time being long a house makes you long on economy with no premium as govt is giving you this option for free.

bansalpr, you are confusing a bet with an option. By not selling today you're betting that prices will go up before you run out of money (slow bleed). I'm not saying your bet is right or wrong, I'm just saying financially you're risking more than an option premium.

The floor is all yours bansalpr. You have introduced some interesting ideas into this discussion.

no doubt i can end up losing more money on my long house, if the market keeps going down for next 10 yrs but thats unlikely as the govt is trying to make people go long the housing market by issuing free options. we are looking at the issue from different angles, you have a valid point if you think uncle sam is not going to revive the market

"sniper
You've got to calm down. After all, you somehow managed to sell your place FSBO, even without the help of a major brokerage firm."

calm down from what? if i was anymore calm my co-workers would accuse me of having taken a xanax and a beer this morning. oh wait, that was this morning, wasn't it? anyway, i am not arguing for or against brokerage or FSBO. to each his own. i knew what route i wanted to take and i had no need to constantly defend it to people who were likely trying to get a rise out of me. that must be exhausting. you are fighting windmills.

at what point do you ask yourself "how many times do i have to write 'my high maintenance is 65% tax deductible!!!!' before you realize that no one is actually listening. you are like the crazy preacher who would attract a crowd at "Speaker's Corner" at my college; he may have thought people were listening to his preacher babble but they just gathered to get his goat and watch him do his crazy dance with his bible. it's like shooting fish in a barrel. cheap entertainment.

on another note: i think burkhardt is a guy with good intentions. i may not have used his service but i never felt the need to slam him down for his opinion. i understood his motives and he understood mine and we respectfully went our own ways. there are plenty of good brokers on here who have offered me a ton of good advice - ali, burkhardt, www.nbpny.com, tina24, urban...just to name a few. had i seen them as "the enemy" i might not have found a buyer for my place.

"I will no longer address you, PAS, since you are resistant to information that doesn't match your opinion."
could PMG have been right?
"The floor is all yours bansalpr."
you find someone who sort of agrees with you and "the floor is all his"...but don't agree and "I WILL WIN BY POSTING LAST!"

sniper, whats wrong with agreeing with 407PAS? You need to clean our gun as its all smoke and no bullets..

did you mean my gun?

there is nothing wrong with agreeing with him. i am sure the argument could be split 50/50 down the middle. it is not personal. the point i am trying to make is that he unloads all the chambers on anyone with an opinion that disagrees. there are two sides to the argument and the quicker you realize that, the less crazy you drive yourself trying to convince the other side.

imagine a born-again bible banger trying to convince an atheist that god exists because all their fanciful bible stories say so. it would be entertaining to watch.

sniper,
bansalpr's posts actually add to the discussion, where yours seems to be mostly content free. You have started muttering in capital letters a lot, it seems to indicate that you're coming unhinged. I don't know your true state of mind, of course.

Every time a poster says that my maintenance is high, I will respond that the tax deductibility is 65%. To state one fact without the other fact is to lie.

You may try to portray me as some crazy preacher but you might as well go back and read the Ad Hominem argument again.

I don't know if burkhardt has good intentions but I certainly doubt it. The fact that the guy has the nerve to suggest outrageously low prices for my property in one breath and then ask to represent my property in the next breath guarantees that I will never take him seriously.

No opinions necessary - here are the comps for B line
apartments in his building pre-crash:

07/23/2008 #14B $475,000;
02/11/2008 #16B $525,000;
08/29/2006 #22B $437,500;
06/14/2006 #23B $455,000;
07/15/2005 #4B $480,000;
04/20/2005 #11B $387,500;
08/24/2004 #20B $362,500

He wants $489,000 for his place. Everyone can decide for themselves
whether his price point makes any sense at all, and whether he is
offering the "good value" he is purporting to offer.

whathappened, what just happened? what are you trying to prove with the comps? why are you thrashing 407 PAS's pricing? make a bid if you want to buy and if you win be happy and if you lose, increase your bid." good value" is decided by the market, not by you.

We've seen this before whathappened, you posted it at another place in the thread. You also missed the sale of 8B unit, as I mentioned last time.

#14B is not a valid comp. I know the sad circumstances behind the sale of this unit and they influenced the sale price.

#8B sold for $515k in July, a much lower floor than mine, and one that does not get as much light.

The market will decide what my place is worth, not you.

sniper, sorry i meant your gun. 407 PAS is trying to sell his place and defending his arguements, if you see no value in his arguements then either move on or keep posting to prove your point..no point calling people crazy for holding on to their beliefs..