Open House Today 1:30-4:00pm - High Floor Corner 1 Bedroom - 407 Park Avenue South #18B

Larry, if that information did not matter then you should be indifferent to revealing it.

407PAS: "4) I am not a betting man. I don't give a damn what you think it is worth. I will let the market decide what it is worth, not a bunch of people posting on StreetEasy..."

WOW. Even YOU won't bet $100 that you can sell YOUR apartment for $58k LESS than YOUR asking price. So, please tell me why I (or ANYONE) should buy your apartment for anywhere near the asking price if YOU YOURSELF don't think you could get $58,000 LESS THAN YOUR ASKING PRICE??????????????????????????

Let's just summarize this again: YOU, the owner of the apartment that you're trying to sell for $489,000 will NOT bet $100 that you can sell that apartment for $430,000 within 1 year. Wow. Just wow.

If any potential buyers are reading this thread right now, please mull that over...

Many apologies--in my comment above, I should have said $59,000 rather than $58,000.

Carry on.

Good morning baseball fans, the game continues. The normal rules have been suspended. We go into extra innings. As long as people want to bat, they can bat.

1) Slope11217, you misunderstood my comment. I said I was not a betting man, and, by that, I mean that I do not believe in gambling. I would not bet for $0, $1 or $1 million, with you or anyone else. I believe gambling is purely a transfer of wealth that is not based on any economic output. I do not engage in gambling because I think it is wrong. Mock me if you will but that is what I believe. Do you understand now?

Your idea to bet me on my selling price proves nothing about what I think I will sell for or what I will actually sell for.

2) kprivatlaw: Bottom line. Still no offers at any price. Correct?

Actually, you are wrong, but I will not share details like that on this board. Nobody shares those kind of details on this board. Haven't you noticed that?

Every deal is a deal for someone.

3) Square footage: As I have mentioned numerous times, and as is shown in my listing, the square footage number is taken from the coop offering plan, a ~300 page document that explains all of the details about the building. I have no choice but to quote the number given by the developer, the architects, etc, at the time they created the offering plan. If I quote something else, a buyer will be upset when they spot the discrepancy during the "due diligence" process.

If there really is some kind of 10% discrepancy, it is far less than the typical 30%+ discrepancies that are rampant in other listings on the broker's websites, making the price per square foot numbers absolutely useless.

4) At the end of the day, and after hundreds of postings, I think you will discover that my unit has lower monthly costs than many units in the city and has higher monthly costs than some units in the city. All of your abusive postings will yield you this incredible nugget of wisdom. Guard it wisely.

5) The tone of this discussion seems to have deteriorated over time. Let's try to keep it centered on the facts. Let's avoid calling each other names, it is disrespectful and adds nothing to the discussion except ill will and hatred.

I can't help but think that I have become the receptacle for all of the anger people feel towards all the owners of all apartments in the city, owners who you feel have overpriced their assets and are somehow taking advantage of buyers. I am one of the few owners who will respond to questions from potential buyers and non-buyers, and, therefore, I receive all the abuse.

looks like someone woke up with diarrhea of the mouth (fingers?)

"I can't help but think that I have become the receptacle for all of the anger people feel towards all the owners of all apartments in the city, owners who you feel have overpriced their assets and are somehow taking advantage of buyers."

of course...you think it is all about YOU. that's what makes this so much fun. you are not a victim here. you are a willing and able participant. in fact, even worse, you are an enabler of your own addiction.

sniper,
Quit the abusive postings, you are rude, mean, and add nothing to the discussion. Just go away.

Price History
1/6/2009 $510,000
Current Price $489,000 -4.12%
Future Price $?

The length of this thread is disproportionate to the uniqueness of this property. All the windows are nice but the floor plan is basically cookie cutter 1BR. In my opinion, a terrace on PAS is not a selling point other than for the inevitable bicycle storage and dirt collection. Given the maintenance in this buyers market the property doesn't have enough positive compensating factors. Methinks the FSBO doth protest too much.

Well, I have never set the "ignore" option on anyone, not even rufus, but sniper has just stepped over the line too many times and so, goodbye sniper. I tried to be your friend. I won't be hearing from you again.

Good morning to 407 PAS,
please carry on,go your way and i agee with your statemant.

i know. rude and mean are the things that i am addicted to...but the first step is knowing it, so i am ahead of the game.
some might say the abusive postings are the ones you keep typing over and over that simply repeat the same thing.

also:
slo-mo train wreck"
"my favorite thread ever"

i find it hard to believe that line was posted because 80'sMan can't get enough of "i have the best features" over and over (i could be wrong).
consider him my enabler. blame them. i am the addict.

all that being said - i do wish you the best in selling your place. that has never been a thought for me. it is your behavior on this board and your maniacal defensiveness that i find hard to ignore. as you have said many times in this thread - the people posting this stuff are not even the ones interested in buying your place. why spend all the time and energy on battling them? put your energy into crafting your answers in a very positive light for the people who do come to see you place - they are the ones who will need the convincing.

i will do you the favor of signing off this thread for the afternoon...i suggest you do the same - which you of course will answer with: "this is MY thread. i HAVE to defend my apartment against these attacks, blah, blah, blah." the point is you don't have to. be a smart general and walk away from this battlefield with a few of your men left. go fight the battle you can win. this ain't it.

decorativeWBFP,
Well, I never claimed architectural significance. A south facing balcony is nice because it gives the owner a little bit of outdoor space in which to grow plants. In a concrete jungle, a little bit of green is a welcome thing. Some people desire a balcony, some do not, it is a personal choice.

What makes the apartment somewhat unique, is the fact that it is a corner apartment with two windows in the bedroom. When light comes into a room from two sides, the light is even and pleasing to the eye. Light from only one side is harsh.

This link will explain:

http://www.patternlanguage.com/apl/aplsample/apl159/apl159.htm

I do not see that many corner apartments in the market. Part of me does not want to give this up but we hope to be able to find an apartment with a little more space.

Having two exposures is also somewhat unique because you get cross ventilation. There is no cross ventilation with windows on just one side of an apartment. My wife and I use very little air conditioning, preferring to adapt to the changing weather by opening and closing windows.

Finally, having windows in the kitchen and bathrooms is kind of rare for post war buildings, where the architects have forgotten the function of both of those rooms and the problems with not having adequate ventilation in those spaces.

it never ends...

So I live alone in a 400 sq ft (measured!) studio and you're a COUPLE living in 575 sq ft (floor plan!) and you accuse ME of feeling cramped? LOL!

PS: Let me know when it's $350,000 and I'll come look at it

West34,
Don't wait for your cell phone to ring. I will never sell it at that price unless I see some nice 2BD/2BA places for $600k. We will see what the future brings as far as price levels.

Hey, everyone in New York feels cramped, no matter how much space they have. The architect/builders/developers say my place is 625 sq feet. See above.

So, why are you thinking of getting a one bedroom when you are rolling around in a huge studio? I have lived in a 425 sq foot studio in an Art Deco building. It was nice space and I still rent it out. My studio actually has four separate little rooms, windows everywhere. They did things right in the 1930s. Now, studios are generally not pleasant to live in because everything is lumped in one room.

407: I actually think your apt is pretty nice. And I also think that if you sit tight YOU will also be buying space at $500-600/sq ft in a year or two. And you are correct, when that happens I would like to increase my living space by 100% not 45%, since my studio is a really nice 1929 prewar high floor, I own it outright and my maint is only $580 -- life is good.

But I have followed the meltdown in other markets (especially San Diego since I have a vested interest there) closely for over a year and the pattern is always the same -- sellers who wisely get out in front of a falling market do ok, while those who are too emotionally attached eventually get crushed and ugly things happen -- foreclosure, shortsale, etc.

My posting was in no way meant to be taken personally by you, you apartment has some great features and it WILL sell eventually. Rather, it was merely a comment on your asking price in a falling market coming from a sideline 1 bedroom buyer. You MAY get very lucky and get near your price from an emotional buyer, but I think the odds are that you will start chop chopping in $10,000 increments every few months as the economy and the market deteriorate and eventually you will sell at the new market equalibrium price - and you will rue the tens of thousands you gave up by looking backward and not foreward. I bought my studio back in the last crash when they were cheap and I remember when you couldnt move studios and one bedrooms at $400/sq ft or LESS -- there is a HUGE chance that could happen again soon. Think long and hard and dispassionately and you might rethink your pricing.

And I completely agree with your no broker approach -- I bought my apt from a seller without a broker, saved money and it was the smoothest transaction ever.

West34,
Thanks for your post. I want to apologize for having snapped at you a couple of times on this thread. I have been subjected to a price hazing over the last day or so, as you know. I have read your post thoroughly, and while I am not sure I agree with your target price ranges, I have taken your thoughts into consideration.

I see we share a similar taste in studio apartments. It sounds like you bought a nice space and are enjoying it, good for you. Small does not have to mean poor quality. I am amazed at how well the Japanese live in their small spaces. You do not want my apartment, it is not a large enough increase in living space, as you pointed out.

In order to maintain the supply of studio apartments for people like yourself, I founded the fictional association called SAJA - Society Against Joined Apartments, in another thread on this board. ;-) The society is unnecessary and unworkable because I think the market will take care of ending the practice of joining apartments. Joined apartments are extremely difficult to resell due to their high maintenance costs. I'm not the only one with problems.

In my defense, I have cut my price from an initial list of $539k, to $510k, and now to $489k a couple of weeks ago. I will see what demand there is in the marketplace. I have seen an increased amount of interest in my place. One of my neighbors went out priced at $599k and is now at $499k. We didn't shoot for the moon with our initial price.

Thanks for your support of my no-broker approach. Yes, a cooperative buyer and a cooperative seller can get a deal done quickly and painlessly. Contrary to what some people like to think, I am not some nasty person who is impossible to do business with. I keep my word, do what I say, and work to make sure that everything proceeds smoothly. I have done this before and have a good lawyer. A potential buyer should have their own attorney who can work with mine. It's all quite simple, actually.

I wish you all the best.

For the sane people who do not want to read 316 comments, could someone objectively summarize this thread; listing characters who are performing is optional, but might be helpful to some.

Jimstreeteasy: The players-

407PAS: Nobly defending the honor of his apartment.

Everyone else: Cruel slanderers.

The truth is often spoken in jest, and is now. Thanks for your objective summary of all the players.

If there is an "arc" to the story, character development, tension buildup, issues pushing toward "resolution", that would also be helpful to know.

Is this like one of those 19th century serialized dramas?

jimstreeteasy: Not really like a serialized drama. More like a Greek tragedy, say Oedipus Rex, where the audience knows the terrible truth and is watching the protagonist's descent into madness and horror as it slowly dawns on him and becomes irrefutable.

I would say it is more like "Death of a Salesman", where a lot of brokers realize their fortunes are going to be limited in the future.

Willy Loman: A middle-aged salesman who is no longer able to earn a living. He receives only a small commission as he ages, and he slowly loses his mind and attempts to kill himself by inhaling gas from the water heater or from crashing his car.Idolizes Dave Singleman to become well liked and rich. Spends most of his time dreaming instead of actually acting.

PAS - please don't start inhaling any gas. it is not worth it...unless, of course, it is NO2. then i would like to know how to get access to a tank.

Iwouldhitit - BRILLIANT! seriously, that is brilliant. but wouldn't that make "Everyone else" the Greek Chorus? you wouldn't call them slanderers just because they know the fate of Oedipus when he does not, would you? I might not be a part of the chorus because I really don't believe to know the fate of PAS's apartment sale (as many others are sure of) but i do not recall all the other characters and where i would fit in. did oedipus have a nemesis? would that be his father? i don't know but i love your characterization of it as Oedipus.

If 407PAS was really interested in selling, it would have been priced to sell. Instead, it is priced to see if someone is emotional or thinking irrationally to submit an offer in this market. When 100+ posts tell you that it is extremely overpriced, what smells like a duck and walks like a duck...

A 100+ posts on this board mean absolutely nothing as far as the price of any apartment in this city. The last time I checked, StreetEasy does not set prices for property in New York City. Buyers do, and I doubt that there are many serious buyers on this thread. You people think you have some sort of power but you actually have none.

I have priced the asset to sell. Your comments are just negative, as so many are on this board. Are you actually in the market for an apartment or just in the market to pick a fight?

Look, the agenda of most StreetEasy posters is to try to drive down prices as much as possible. It's funny though, my wife and I have started to see good properties move into contract, so maybe these buyers did not get the word from the gods of StreetEasy Land.

What about "character development"...what about "the arc of the story"...what about "resolution". Some of the characters in this play seem stuck, repeating the same thing over and over again. The audience would walk out if this were on Broadway.

The exit is on the left Jim, feel free to use it. You paid nothing for this entertainment, you don't have a right to complain.

The better stock market mood should help you
but this whole thread is not helpful to your cause
I would stop it or even better erase all comments

jim - i would love to see a summarization with the things you describe. in fact i would love to see several takes on it, even if the characterize me poorly. i have a thick skin, i can take it.

i would provide character development and arc of story but it would obviously be biased by me - which i understand. the basis of a lot of this is that PAS only sees one side and his hubris gets the best of him.

Nope, as I have stated on numerous occasions, I do not believe in censorship. All of the comments stand.

Since the opposing side's arguments, all 100+ posts, can be boiled down to "Your apartment is overpriced by yy%", yy being some high percentage, or "Your price should be zzz,zzzz", zzz,zzzz being some lowball number, it is hard to believe that these posts damage my case. These exact same arguments are leveled at every single other piece of property that gets discussed on this board.

If there are any actual buyers reading this thread, do your own research and go out and look at properties on your own. See what is on the market, figure out what you think it is worth, and negotiate in good faith. Leave your buyer broker at home so that you have one less person who needs to get paid. This will give you more flexibility when negotiating price.

See all of these negative comments for what they really are, an attempt to demean my property. If you are a serious buyer, come by and take a look at my apartment and make up your own mind. The people who have actually set foot in my apartment like it a lot and have given me positive feedback.

"lighten up"..."and know thyself"....yelled the jester from off-stage

"The people who have actually set foot in my apartment like it a lot and have given me positive feedback". Those same people are also walking out of your apartment and saying "all things considered, it's overpriced, I'll pass" We buyers are also educated and say if you want to sell it, price it like you want to sell it. There's thousands of apartments for sale in Manhattan, the inventory is the highest it has been in 10 years. This is candyland for buyers and we only have so much time to look so we're going to look at someone who is serious in selling as we are in buying. And that first impression is ppsf + maintenance ppsf.

Ah, rmrmets back with another hit. You never answered my question, are you actually in the market to buy an apartment or do you just like to pick on a seller who puts his property on the market? Do you have some comps you can show us? Do you have some criteria for your next place?

I have priced my apartment competitively. Sure, there are thousands of apartments for sale in Manhattan. We search the listings in our neighborhood, run calculations on monthly costs, and find that we are someplace in the middle of the pack, cheaper than some, more expensive than others.

People are always welcome to make a bid. Given the egregious overpricing I have witnessed in the market, my price is very realistic. It is a funny thing, I never insulted people who were way overpriced, I bid what I thought the property was worth or I did not bid. I think that is the honorable path. You continual criticism of my pricing is tiresome.

People don't buy a place for a variety of reasons. Many people say they have just started their searches. Others say that they need a two bedroom, after all. Others don't like the maintenance, sure. I don't get people spinning on their heels in disgust and heading for the door. People honestly like the place and stay to ask questions. That is a good sign.

Selling an apartment takes patience. Agents know this and will sit on a place in order to get a decent prize. There are always people who are willing to try to crush you on prize. As a seller, and maybe you will actually be a seller some day, you will come to understand the pressure.

This is hardly candyland for buyers when they have a hard time qualifying for mortgages in the tighter credit markets. Maybe all-cash people would have some advantages but they don't seem to be rushing to the market either.

Sorry, "prize" should be "price", of course.

I think I finally understand: we are in re-runs, the syndication phase.

I am curious if rmrmets can ever answer a question. How about it rmrets, can you add any actual information to this thread? Can you tell us anything about your motivations? Why are you here?

A good broker "fishes" for a bid. When he/she sees someone is intrigued by a place, they give the impression that there has been a lot of interest, that bids are expected soon. In short, they are an "agent" that facilitates a deal, sometimes at the expense of the buyer. Sometimes at the expense of a seller. The point is as the seller you are in the driver's seat. You don't have to accept a bid or even counter if you don't want to. It is my impression, that the buyer ends up subsidizing to a large extent the commission paid by paying a higher price.

PAS, you thank posters who negate brokers. The fact of the matter is that brokers control a lot of serious buyers that are working with them. If a broker wants to bad mouth your property its very easy... they just have to mention the maintenance per square foot, and the fact that it hasn't gone up in three years. With union employees how long could that favorable trend last? By alienating a powerful force that lies cheats and manipulates to SELL virtually all manhattan homes, I think you are making a mistake. Some products are bought, some are sold (think whole life insurance policies that are so expensive they rarely make financial sense).

Go ahead, attack me for speaking my mind.

PMG,
I won't attack you, actually, I agree with almost everything you have said.

" It is my impression, that the buyer ends up subsidizing to a large extent the commission paid by paying a higher price. "

Yes, that is also my impression, which I have stated many times. Buyers pay higher prices for real estate because of the high commission costs. To deny this is to deny the reality of the situation. Those costs have to be paid. Brokerage commissions raise the price of real estate for everyone.

"If a broker wants to bad mouth your property its very easy... they just have to mention the maintenance per square foot, and the fact that it hasn't gone up in three years. With union employees how long could that favorable trend last? By alienating a powerful force that lies cheats and manipulates to SELL virtually all manhattan homes, I think you are making a mistake."

Yes, of course, it is easy for brokers to badmouth my property, I am sure they do it all the time, if they can hold onto every buyer in the market, which is what they want to do. Hopefully, more people go it alone so as to decide for themselves what is true.

Brokers, and their association, are a powerful force, there is no question about that. They have been responsible for a lot of shameful chapters in our nation's history with the kind of discrimination they have actively promoted through steering, etc. I am sure they will say they have cleaned up their act now but it took legislation to straighten them out. From what I have read, they came out against the fair housing law.

Whether am I making a mistake is to be seen. Maybe. With the power of the internet and with the power for anyone to publish their side of the story, there is less chance to be so easily defamed by these brokers. StreetEasy is a powerful tool for exposing the broker's lies and misrepresentations. Look at the square footage thread for an example.

I believe in the power of the internet and I believe in the free flow of information. The brokers are setting themselves against the collective intelligence of the community with the way they market properties and they pay a tremendous prize in ill will and bad publicity when they can't get their facts straight.

As for your comment about the unions, etc. I have never denied that there is upward price pressure in every building in the city, including in mine. The answer to your question is, I don't know. We have saved a lot with the refinance but I cannot predict all future price trends. Nobody can. I have told every single person who comes to my open house the same thing I have just stated.

Thanks for posting your thoughts.

By now 407PAS has enough material from this thread to publish a novel entitled "Fantasy: How I expect to sell my Manhattan apartment in 2009 at the Bubble price". What's the sequel in 2 years? "Reality: Here I sit looking at my $3500 fridge still waiting for my buyer to show up".

Good work rmrmets, you still haven't answered a single question about your motives or what your point is for being on this thread. Why not? It seems to be all about the attacks with you. There is nothing else. By the way, my price is not a bubble price.

I love the way you use my high quality appliance to attack me. I'm sure you would slam me if I had bought an $800 fridge, and a crappy $400 stove. You can't win with StreetEasy posters, for they will belittle you no matter what you do. That's what everybody should learn by hanging out on this board.

"I love the way you use my high quality appliance to attack me."

407PAS: "By the way, my price is not a bubble price."

407PAS, let's try this logic:

(1) You've been trying diligently to sell your apartment for $489,000 (or, I suppose, some number near that) for the past several weeks (months, perhaps?).

(2) Your apartment is currently unsold.

(3) That means that, despite your best efforts over several weeks (months?) you have not found EVEN ONE human being willing and able to pay $489,000 (or something close to it) for your apartment.

(4) The mere fact that you can't find ONE HUMAN being willing and able to pay that price for that apartment, despite your diligent efforts, should at least suggest to you the possibility that your apartment is overpriced.

By the way, I'd love to know the "offers" you've gotten that you refuse to reveal. I don't see why they should have any more impact on your (possible) eventual sale. After all, those offers don't affect the inherent value of your property any more than the comments on this thread.

My guess is that you haven't gotten a single offer over $400,000.

it never ends....

Slopeman,

Wrong, the $489k price has been for a few weeks and I have seen increased traffic. Doubt it if you will but that is the truth. The $489k price is not the highest price ever paid for a B line apartment so it is not a bubble price.

2) (2) Your apartment is currently unsold.

As are many other apartments that people are looking at, and your point is what, Exactly? Not selling a place for a couple of weeks does not force one to sell the apartment at a below market price. Sales in this city take a lot of time, as you must have noticed.

3) I don't reveal anything about possible offers but you're just all wrong in what you've said. You're flat out wrong and should just give it a rest. You invent things in your head about my situation and imagine them to be true but they're all false. I'm just laughing at how wrong you are about these things.

Let's just agree to stop talking to each other because this is not working. I would rather discuss things with PMG.

This thread is very entertaining. I am just glad I didn't subscribe to receive email updates (that would be way too many emails)!! Without prejudice to where I stand on all of this, I must say Iwouldhitit's summary made me laugh. My advice to 407PAS, encourage this thread to die (if that's even possible at this point)...

407PAS: "You're flat out wrong and should just give it a rest. You invent things in your head about my situation and imagine them to be true but they're all false."

What exactly have I made up????

(1) I've calculated the price per square foot for your apartment based on the square footage YOU provided and the asking price YOU listed.

(2) I calculated maintenance per square foot based on the maintenance YOU listed and the square footage YOU provided.

(3) I argued that YOU are diligently trying to sell your apartment. If this is wrong somehow, please let me know.

(4) I observed that your apartment is currently unsold. This seems like a reasonable assumption since you have not said otherwise. If this is incorrect, please let me know.

(5) I observed that you have NOT located ONE HUMAN being willing and able to pay your price for your apartment. I deduced this from fact #4 above (that your apartment is currently unsold) and my knowledge of typical human behavior (specifically, that if you located a person willing and able to purchase your apartment for your asking price, you would have sold it to them). If this is incorrect, please let me know.

----------

You know, 407PAS, I've finally figured out what must justify the $2.64 per square foot per month maintenace you pay for this apartment: I think there's someone on duty who tucks you in at night and reassures you that you're smart and know what you're talking about.

Good luck.

Slope,
Most apartments don't trade at the asking price. How flexible a seller is on price is another matter. That flexibility can differ based on the offer on the table, the chances of success, the current state of the market, the settled prices of other sales, and a whole host of other reasons.

There are lots of unsold apartments on the market, I am committing no crime by being on the market and by trying to find my point on the price/demand curve, the same thing every other seller is doing.

You are wrong in terms of the circumstances related to the offers against my apartment but I am not going into details so you're going to have to take my word on this one.

Give it a rest. Insulting me does not mean you win the argument about whether my apartment is priced fairly in the market.

PMG,
Ok, as my military friends used to say, I think we are in violent agreement.

Listen to me for a second. So, you harshly criticize the real estate industry with this statement:

"By alienating a powerful force that lies cheats and manipulates to SELL virtually all manhattan homes, I think you are making a mistake."

Ok, I, as a seller and as a buyer, does not like the way real estate is bought and sold in this country. Sellers hate the current system because it is too expensive. The buyers hate it because they feel lied to and manipulated by the brokers. Everyone hates the system, yet, the system persists.

Now, as a seller of an apartment and someone who does not like the way the real estate industry works, your advice to me is to use the system. Do you see any flaw in your logic? Do you still wonder why the system continues to exist in its present form? You have no advice for me, except to tell me to support the system which I do not support.

Look, I can't show a phone number on my listing, something every other listing has, due to harassment from real estate brokers. This fact alone is enough to convince me not to use the services of the real estate industry when I sell my apartment. Why should I support a system that abuses me?

While I think Larry is being disingenuous by not telling us the apartments previous purchase price & year of sale because it "doesn't matter," I do agree that New York brokers are difficult to deal with and applaud his effort to do without them. As a buyer I stopped using a broker here and would only go see an apartment with the listing agent or at an open house. When I started looking in California, I found having a broker much more helpful. Brokers there do pretty much all of the work we have to pay an attorney to do here in New York, and tend to be much cheerier too.

Ok,
I have found a few recent sales in my neighborhood, with settled prices from ACRIS:

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/346142-coop-201-east-28th-street-kips-bay-new-york
201 East 28th Street #8M
Sold on 2/18 for a price of: $550k (from ACRIS)
Maintenance: $895

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/344998-coop-245-east-24th-street-kips-bay-new-york
224 East 24th Street #8D
Sold on 3/3 for a price of: $525k (from ACRIS)
Maintenance: $994

Both of these places are full service doormen buildings, as is my listing. Both places are on a lower floor than mine and neither of them have outdoor space. Neither of these places has two exposures, as my place does. Yes, their maintenance numbers are lower but their prices are higher.

I think these recently closed sales point out that you have been suggested outrageously low prices for my apartment. Here is one from Burkhardt the Broker, the professional:

"then this unit prices at approx. $380,000 dollars."

You guys are just wrong. One bedroom apartments in my neighborhood are not trading in the high $300 or low $400s, even with my higher maintenance figured into the equation.

"While I think Larry is being disingenuous by not telling us the apartments previous purchase price & year of sale because it "doesn't matter,"

I am not being disingenuous by not giving you this information, which is public anyway, but I guess does not show up for some reason. Not my problem. There is only one rule in business: "Do not reveal your costs." I will help you out. I paid somewhere between $0 and $1 million for my apartment. Happy now?

An asset is worth what the current market will pay for it, regardless of when the asset was purchased. Should I howl in protest when people who bought townhouses at $550k turn around and sell them for $2.5 million in the current market? I have no right to complain.

For the tenth time, my purchase price does not matter, the year I purchased it does not matter, and will not give you any leverage over me. Besides, you're not a buyer anyway, just a critic.

sticky said,

"Brokers there do pretty much all of the work we have to pay an attorney to do here in New York, and tend to be much cheerier too."

Exactly, I have mentioned this on other threads. Brokers in the rest of the country do a lot more work, negotiate the terms of the contract, etc and do a better job of earning their pay. This is not true in Manhattan, where I have to hire a lawyer to do all of this work.

Yes, personal demeanor is not their strong suit, generally speaking. Life is much more pleasant when I do not have to deal with them. The lack of a published phone number helps me out a lot.

407PAS, first, I completely agree with you that your purchase price does not matter. Just as buyers should notbe willing to pay more because a seller bought at an inflated price in 2007, they should not insist on paying less because a seller has held a property over a long term and seen substantial appreciation.

Second, I'm wondering if you could elaborat one what price you think the above comps and your maintenance imply for your apartment? I'd be genuinely interested to hear your thought process on this.

Here's how I'm thinking about it. It was suggested earlier in the thread that $500 in maintenance = $100k in purchase price. At $1655 (I think that's the maintenance you listed on your site - please correct me if I'm mistaken), the maintenance for your apt would be $661 higher than 224 East 24th St., above, and $770 higher than 201 East 28th. If we assume $500k maint = $100k purchase price, and those apts are comps for yours, it would suggest that your apt should be $132k less than 224 East 24th ($525k-$132K = $393k), or $154k less that 201 East 28th ($550k-$154k = $396k).

This is a simplistic calculation of course, but it seems to give a ballpark. I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on whether you think the calculation above makes sense and, if not, what adjustments you'd make to it so that it's more accurate.

Hello JohnDoe,
As a broker has stated on here, pricing is not an exact science. Straight line calculations like yours do not take into account the unique features of one apartment that may be worth more to one buyer than they are worth to another buyer. For the person who craves a little outdoor space, that feature is worth more to them. The same goes for those who want better light, two exposures, more windows, a higher floor, closer proximity to the subway, etc.

Your calculations are interesting but do not, I believe, produce the market value of my apartment due to the factors I have just mentioned.

"we are in syndication"
great line. we actually went into syndication about 400 posts ago because PAS has been strictly on repeat-mode since then.

if you walk by one day and the old man is muttering to the brick wall you might not even notice it or you blow it off as no big deal.
if you walk by for a couple days and the old man is screaming at the brick wall you start to think "this old dude is crazy."
if you walk by every day and he is screaming (the same things) at the brick wall you start wondering "how the hell can we get this guy out of here."

PAS, I appreciate that pricing is not a simple matter of a striaght-line calculation (in fact, I described the calculations as "simplistic" in my post). Nevertheless, comps and calculations of some sort do seem to play a role in determining the right price for an apartment. I guess I'm trying to get a sense of what sorts of calculations you're doing off of the comps you posted to get to what you see as the value of your apartment. I was giving the straight-line calculations above as a starting point. I'd be curious to hear how you'd augment those calculations to get to the correct price of the apartment (or if you'd throw those away and start over, what sort of calculations you would suggest give the correct price).

Hello JohnDoe,
Well, I suppose there is some price per floor equation that exists in the realm of mathematics. Could I publish it in a paper? No. Any number I quote will be attacked. Is it $1000 per floor? $2000? $500? I really have no idea and I did not sit down and try to derive this number. I will say that it is an addition to the price.

The same reasoning goes for the balcony and the fact that the apartment has two exposures, and everything else I mentioned. Is my $3500 fridge worth anything over a $750 fridge? Some say yes, some say no. If no, I think I will take it with me and replace it with a $750 fridge.

Now, I will give you this. If these comps had come in at $450k and $425k, respectively, my current price position would be indefensible. Yet, these recent sales did not come in at those price points. I look at the market like all everyone else and try to make sense of it. I am not immune to the arguments presented on this thread, regardless of what some people may think, yet, I do not readily accept other people's reasoning about price when it seems like the market says something different.

LOL, I'm not a buyer at this particular minute, but I just freaking closed 6 days ago and could have paid above even your original asking price.

For some reason the previous sale isn't showing up on ACRIS. But I called the Department of Finance this morning and learned you bought in 2003 for $225K.

No wonder people are telling you how overpriced your listing is. You could still sell for $400K and make a handsome profit. You could sell for $350K and make a profit. People aren't making snide remarks because you're seeking to make a profit. People are making snide remarks because you're seeking an exorbitant profit, more than double what you paid. You keep preaching about "current market value" but can't seem to accept that the current market is not 2007's market.

sticky just 0wned 407PAS.
WOW!!!!

"For some reason the previous sale isn't showing up on ACRIS. But I called the Department of Finance this morning and learned you bought in 2003 for $225K."

Good work sticky. You have solved one of the mysteries of the universe. I told you my purchase price was public knowledge, and by god, I was not lying.

As JohnDoe said so eloquently:

"407PAS, first, I completely agree with you that your purchase price does not matter. Just as buyers should not be willing to pay more because a seller bought at an inflated price in 2007, they should not insist on paying less because a seller has held a property over a long term and seen substantial appreciation."

"People are making snide remarks because you're seeking an exorbitant profit, more than double what you paid. "

Current market price has absolutely no relation to original purchase price.

Please try to get understand this concept. You are unwilling to accept this fact but it is true.

Price to sell it Profit
Now $400,000 $175k
June $375,000 $150k
Sep $350,000 $125k
Dec $325,000 $100k
Mar 2010 $300,000 $75k
Jun 2010 $270,000 $50k
Sep 2010 $250,000 $25k
Dec 2010 $225,000 $0

and as much as i despise brokers, this thread is a good argument to use one.
(for the record, when i bought we used the Costco / Lendingtree promo and got ~1% of the purchase price back)

I should have put it this way:

The current Fair Market Value of an asset is not in any way derived from the Original Purchase Price.

West34,
Make yourself comfy in that studio. You're not going to be moving anyplace soon. What is the value of your little studio going to drop to, $115k? Your reasoning is flawed, for so many reasons. You have no crystal ball that tells you future price levels. If you think all owners who have equity will give away all that equity to sell their apartments, you are mistaken.

AnonMan2002,
Try to post something of substance.

Brokers lie and cheat, manipulate buyers and sellers, reduce a seller's net, raise prices for buyers, but yet, should be used in real estate transactions. Now, that beats all. Amazing logic there, AnonMan2002. Think again.

""People are making snide remarks because you're seeking an exorbitant profit, more than double what you paid. "

How could people be making snide remarks about my seeking an exorbitant profit, when, until five minutes ago, none of them knew my original purchase price? Your statement makes no sense.

Current market value apparently has absolutely no relation to your asking price either.

You didn't buy for the long term! You bought in the beginning of the bubble. Sure, real estate appreciates. But it doesn't go from $225K to $500K in just 6 years, even with major renovations. The "original" purchase price was back in the 1980s. Maybe if someone had paid $50K for it back then and were selling now, then asking several times what they paid would make sense. The "current market" expects to pay early 2000s pre-bubble prices on small cookie cutter apartments like yours.

"All publicity is good publicity." Bull. This thread is toxic. The seller seems compulsive (11 posts in the 3 hours since 7:30 this a.m.) and a little nuts; all the comps being posted get me to look elsewhere and click through to the entire buildings the comps are in to see what is around; the seller's personal info and purchase cost and other things don't help this sale.

Part of RE is psychology, not just numbers. RE is not just an investment like a stock that all you care about is that it'll make you money. You live in RE and "homes" have sentimental, emotional components. 400 posts here do not give one a warm-fuzzy feeling about this property.

Whatever segment of the buying pool even read this thread is irrelevant. If any segment reads it, the thread does more to turn off people than it does to attract anyone. And that is not good marketing. People want positive, upbeat, happy, feel-good, fresh cookies and puppies and Christmas feelings associated with a potential home purchase. Not the alternating vitriole and economic dissection in this thread. Since only the seller stands to gain or lose from this (no other poster here gives a hoot), I'd be mortified if I were the seller.

This has become purely toxic and I'd let the thread fade into the ether and pray no prospective interested buyer googled the property address and came up with this. What a mistake. For goodness sake 407PAS, control yourself and stop posting here. It isn't helping, and it may actually hurt you.

Re: West34,Make yourself comfy in that studio. You're not going to be moving anyplace soon. What is the value of your little studio going to drop to, $115k?

Actually, I think the value peaked at around $350,000 early last year and it'll probably be worth $160,000 by end of next year. Doesnt matter, I'm not selling it and I dont need the equity to buy another place.

If YOU need the equity in your place in order to trade up, you might consider selling NOW into this rapidly crumbling market to maximize your profits. Then sit tight and buy twice the space when it's cheaper next year. Stop looking backward. The floor is dropping. And I do have a crystal ball, it's called a newspaper.

TAKE KYLE'S ADVICE!!!! This is not helping you sell your apartment AT ALL. You need to stop.

Kyle is asking a scorpion to stop stinging...but he has been a voice of reason in many areas of this posting board. maybe it will work here.

kylewest,
Welcome to the world of the internet. Get used to it. The internet is how arguments are settled. People ahould read both sides and weigh everything accordingly.

"People want positive, upbeat, happy, feel-good, fresh cookies and puppies and Christmas feelings associated with a potential home purchase."

Right, buyers actually require the lies that are fed to them by the brokers and complain after they figure out that they have been fed lies. What a world. No wonder there is so much anger directed against brokers.

I have been honest about everything. Wow, someone posted my purchase price. Big Deal. It does not matter and I always know this number when I bid on an apartment and it does not mean anything. It is a data point.

My rate of posting means nothing. When people bring up issues, I respond. I don't call people names or abuse them. I try to argue the facts.

Actually, I think we have finally started to get down to it, the bedrock, the underlying assumptions that drive the market. I am enjoying this discussion.

Do you actually think that I am going to let your arguments against me stand without offering a rebuttal? Someone brings up a point, I respond, that's how a debate goes. Except for sniper's comments, which I am ignoring due to his past comments.

Look at that, I posted some comps, some actual hard data, which has pretty much gone ignored here.

The fact is you're asking--and not getting--$500K for an apartment that sold for $225K in 2003.

This is America and it's your god-given right to ask however much you want for your property. But it's also our god-given right to remark that you're delusional and your asking price is way way way over the apartment's value. The truth hurts.

YOU STUPID FROG! You knew I was a scorpion!!!! I had to sting you.

"People want positive, upbeat, happy, feel-good, fresh cookies and puppies and Christmas feelings associated with a potential home purchase."

"Right, buyers actually require the lies that are fed to them by the brokers"

what in the original statement is LIES???? some cookies? some positive, happy feelings? he just doesn't get it and no one can get through to him. he posts comps and says how everyone ignored them...that's because you have become the main event britney. your singing is just some bullshit sideshow so we can watch the train wreck.

We shouldn't let only Streeteasy readers enjoy all the Larry lulz:

http://www.apartmenttherapy.com/ny/fsbo/fsbo-407-park-avenue-south-18b-063100

sticky,
Try reading the comps and thinking a little harder on this issue. You know no truth. Actually, you can't even quote my price correctly, it is $489k, not $500k. Are you the same guy who always rounds the maintenance figures up by a couple of hundred dollars? I guess you don't have a good head for numbers.

Calling me delusional is a personal attack and shows that you don't have any facts on your side.

The market decides the price, not a bunch of posters on this board. Get that through your head. I posted comps. You said nothing. Only JohnDoe had the decency to discuss them. What is it with you sticky? You're mean and abusive and can't seem to be able to make a point with some real information.

sticky,
Good work again, you found my apartment on Apartment Therapy, where my place was chosen because of what I tried to do design-wise with the space. They don't just pick any FSBO listing, they review them. I think you will find my comments amazingly consistent. Just don't listen to the out-of-towners, who know even less about the fair market value of an apartment in Manhattan than you guys do.

407PAS you are sounding more and more like a petulant kid who is going to run back to mommy anytime now because he is being bullied by the streeteasy heavyweights. Believe me, you have ruined any chance of finding a prospective buyer on streeteasy. You need to devote your energies elsewhere in finding a sucker who will buy your property (with a maintenance which is only 700-900 below the current market rent) at the current list price.

You have to eventually stand up to bullies. I'm not running to mommy, I'm fighting back with facts, data, observations, my reasoning, etc. This is an argument and I am in it. Many of my critics stoop to name-calling but I will not do that.

Can you believe some people told me to try to delete posts? Besides not believing in censorship, I am not walking into a firestorm of criticism by trying to delete posts.

If sniper makes a non-abusive post, let me know, because I am not following his comments due to the "ignore" option. I am reading all the other comments.

I think buyers will appreciate all of the information and can make up their own minds. If it takes deceit to sell a property, you'll have to leave me out of the game. Calling a potential buyer of mine a sucker is a low blow, that is just more name calling and means nothing.

StreetEasy - Directing abuse against all properties, all the time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvNjReSZp84

perfect. just like the thread, it backs up and let's us see the same crash again and again.

I don't need to study comps to know that $489K for a 650sf cookie cutter unit in a 1980s coop building isn't going to happen in 2009, even in Manhattan.

Fine, you want to play comps. Taking 2002 as our price target is problematic because ACRIS doesn't start listing until 2004. But 20B sold for $362,500 in 2004. You could ask $350K, sell it immediately, be paid back for all the maintenance you've ever paid and still make a profit.

I said $500K to average between your present asking of $489K and $510K the NYT listing gives as the original asking, but now I see you had the gall to start asking $539K.

You claim to have facts on your side, but have these facts sold your apartment? The fact is that your asking price is above what the market is willing to pay.

407PAS: "Current market price has absolutely no relation to original purchase price."

In a sense, yes. But you'd have to make one astonishingly good argument for why this apartment appreciated OVER 100% in 6 years. That amounts to OVER 15% per year.

Now I see why you didn't want to real purchase price ($225,000) or purchase date (2003). Frankly, you KNOW as well as we all do, that your asking price is absurd. That's also why you won't bet $100 that you can sell it for $430,000 (that is, $59,000 LESS than your asking price.)

15% per year for the last 6 years? Bernie...is that you?

"You could ask $350K, sell it immediately, be paid back for all the maintenance you've ever paid and still make a profit. "

But $350k is not the fair market value of this apartment. Not by a long shot. We are discussing what is the fair market value of my place. At least I posted recently sold units in my neighborhood and you post old historical data that means nothing. Recent sales matter, nothing else matters, really.

I do not think my price is absurd. I actually think it is quite reasonable and in line with what a full service doorman building unit like mine is being sold for in the neighborhood. As for having the gall to start at $539k, why don't you look at my broker-represented competitor that started at $599k and is now at $499k. I am still the lowest priced one bedroom for sale in my building at, yes, $489k. That's the truth.

Slope,
I do not gamble. Just because you do does not mean that I do. Our morals are different. I explained all this before but you seem to have missed it.

Well, since SE seems stuck on this channel (24/7 407PAS...real estate streaming blogging broadcast), can I ask:

What can you rent a comparable for at this time ? (either in this building or similar building). And then I ask: is it worth 489,000$ to avoid the difference in monthly cost between monthly rent vs. montly maintenace. I know there are the ways of looking at this...but...this is a starting point for me. At some point maintenane is so high relative to rent that you just say, screw it,why buy (unless you are making an "investment" looking for the greater fool tomorrow, but that is not a good bet at this time when the downside for real etate is clearly potentially far lower, and the upside is nil).

What was the most recent recorded actual sale in this building for a roughly comparable unit? And what was the price of actual sales of a comparable in say 2004/2005? Since many sales seem - so far as I gather from the SE mavens - to be taking place at 2004/2005 prices, why would this building be any different? Is there something unique about this neighborhood or building that has caused it to be more resilient than the rest of the market.

Jim,
I think the rental argument is better left to another thread. We are hammering away at how to determine fair market value. I think I could rent at around $2800-2900 but I am not sure as I have not really looked at that side of the game.

People are certainly free to choose not to buy. Nobody is forcing anybody to buy. People buy for various reasons.

All the comps for the building have been posted. I do not necessarily think that a 2004/2005 price makes sense, it depends on what comparables are selling for, at the present time. I posted recent sales of comps. You can take exception with my comps but those comps did not come in at $350k, even when adjusting for maintenance differences.

As to comps, I saw the comps for other buildings but I was just wondering as to this building, for a unit with a balcony and roughlysame size, what data you have from recently,so that one can see how far your ask is from the peakish pricing of the very closest comp, and from what some see as the new benchmark (2004/2005), although you might argue that the latter is exagerated . Given the timeyou've put into this post, why not answer this?....up to you

If you posted comps for this building it may be so far bck in the thread i missed it

Who says $350K isn't fair market value? YOU, Mr. Asking $539K But Paid $225K?! Yours might not be the most egregious example of bubble pricing, but it's still bubble pricing.

There haven't been any "recent" sales--by which I mean in 2009--in your building because-sellers are pricing their apartments according to Manhattan's market before Lehman Bros. went bankrupt. You want to talk about numbers that don't matter, try sales from from 2008 or 2007.

There's going to be much loling on Streeteasy when you slash your asking price again. There's another fact for you.

Do you disagree with the assessment of many on here that sales that are taking place are taking place at prices from roughly the 2005 level?...I've read people saying that on here, but I don't follow this enough to know if it is true. But if it is true, it is a reference point for any buyer, especially given that comparables in other buildings may have other differences that are not obvious from flipping through a listing.

Another point: I think the benefit and value of a balcony depends on how noisy it is...lots of buildings in manhattan are situated such that the noise means no one ever uses the balcony. I don't know about your building.

"Who says $350K isn't fair market value? YOU, Mr. Asking $539K But Paid $225K?! Yours might not be the most egregious example of bubble pricing, but it's still bubble pricing."

sticky,
Actually, the comps I posted say the fair market value of my apartment is a lot greater than $350k. I don't have to say anything. You're stuck. You're repeating the original purchase price over and over again without any new data.

jim,
The comps were posted twice. You'll have to go look. Be sure to read my caveats that appear shortly after the comps. We may be in whole new territory here in 2009 but I will see how properties settle in my neighborhood before dropping my price like you people suggest. A seller would be stupid to do otherwise.

"Mr. Asking $539K But Paid $225K?"

Once again, sticky, the asking price is $489k. Man, get it right for once.

jimstreeteasy, it's one of those small balconies on a high floor. Some people don't like them (vertigo, afraid of heights). Some people love them (flowers, fresh air, a potential smoking area).

407PAS, I'm starting to get the feeling that you have an undue emotional attachment to the property that precludes a trade at any price at or below market. You want to be top tick vs. your comps. I don't think it's greed. I feel it's because you've done a lot of work and made it special and unique. That's great but not every bidder will compensate you for that. Problem is you need a buyer with the exactly the same aesthetic eye as you, which limits your demographic. Even if they like what you've done, they may see the need to make changes to put their own stamp on the space. Moral: in the end only the designers and decorators get rich (n.b. I'm all for structural renovations).

MY apologies because I had forgotten about this posting from someone earlier:

QUOTE
Here are past B-line sales at 407 PAS and the dates
of each sale. Looks like your price is still at or above peak-level
pricing. Seems to me you've got a few more chops to go.

07/23/2008 #14B $475,000;
02/11/2008 #16B $525,000;
08/29/2006 #22B $437,500;
06/14/2006 #23B $455,000;
07/15/2005 #4B $480,000;
04/20/2005 #11B $387,500;
08/24/2004 #20B $362,500

UNQUOTE

Now, 407pas, it almost seems as if you want to focus more on other building comps than your own building. From this data it seems your price is still roughly near peak levels FOR YOUR BUILDING, in which case I would ask: is there something about your building that makes it unusually insensitive to th general price decline in the market, or do you dispute that there is a general market decline. I'm not trying to "attack" you, I'm just asking what seems to me a logical question.

407PAS: "I think I could rent at around $2800-2900."

Ok, so let's run the numbers.

If you assume a 30 year mortgage at 5% and you put down 20%, then a purchase price of $279,000 gets you a monthly out of pocket cost of $2853.19

But, what about the fact that the $1655 maintenance is 65% tab deductible, you repond? Ok. I'll leave it to someone else to do the math on that. But I'm pretty sure that that tax deduction does not alter the bottom line that much. And the "benefit" is even less once you factor in: (1) closing costs and (2) the missed income on your down payment. All in all, they probably wash out.

Bottom line: if I could rent your apartment for $2850 (the mid-point of the figures that YOU gave), then the break-even point for buying it (using reasonable assumptions) is $279,000.

You're presently asking $489K but you did ask $539K. Let me guess, pricing history doesn't matter according to you either.

$225K is not the "original" price. The original purchase was back in the 1980s. $225K is the previous purchase price, was in the beginning of the bubble, and is a better indicator of the apartment's value than whatever voodoo magic conjured up an asking price of $539K.