where is the chief technologist?

come now, we don't want to scare him off. he did identify himself, a point of great courage. we do want him here to keep telling us not to try to time the market.

He is way up the curve compared to most of the brokers that post here...if he wants to post, let him.

I'd like his opinion of putting brokers behind bars for inflating square footage...and maybe whoever pushed the button to upload the number to the web sites too.

Modern - your question is a good one. There is certainly plenty of case law on this issue, so if you have been deceived, then you have well-defined recourse.

Typically, you can (a) pursue a civil suit to reclaim damages and (b) request that the DOS suspend or revoke the license, and (c) take up an ethics complaint with National Association of Realtors (although many Manhattan firms are not member of NAR) and (d) make a complaint to REBNY (nearly all Manhattan firms are part of REBNY).

First though, it would be helpful to understand more about the basis for your claim. Square footage is notoriously hard to measure, and there are a number of accepted methods that all produce different numbers. Because of the risk of lawsuits, and the inability to directly verify the numbers, brokerage firms almost universally rely on the offering plans with original floorplans. In some cases, those floor plans include total square footage, in other cases, they don't. If they do not, then a seller and their broker can either hire an architect to come in, or can simply estimate. The best way to avoid a buyers claim of misrepresentation is to give the square footage in 'approximate' terms.

There has long been a small movement to develop a standardized method for measurement, but there has simply not been enough demand for that from buyers. Very few people (myself included), could walk into an apartment and tell the difference between 650 and 700 sq ft, or 1100 and 1200. If enough consumers banded together, then a service would be create, and

The important thing is that a buyer *must* evaluate whether their stuff will fit, and whether they will be comfortable. Where it does come into play is in the search process. If you were only looking for 700 sq ft properties, would you be interested in also seeing one for 690 sq ft, or 670 or 650? perhaps yes, but a strict parameter search would have missed it.

Here are acomples of articles on the topic
http://blogs.wsj.com/developments/2008/09/17/el-ad-faces-second-plaza-hotel-lawsuit/
http://nymag.com/realestate/realestatecolumn/41815/

Onward and Upward
~ Philip

FULL DISCLOSURE - I am the Chief Technologist at Coldwell Banker and President of Manhattan Association of Realtors. As a leader in the industry and a member of society, I have a vested interest in seeing the housing market and general economy turn around and start rising.

Philip,

There are two types of measurement errors - noise, and systematic errors. Noise has the property that *on average* it is zero. Systematic errors are not zero on average.

The estimation "errors" made by brokers seem to fall soundly in the second category.

A simple standard would be to measure the total space inside the walls of the apartment, excluding beams and non-removable inside partitions. That is how people who work in non-liar professions usually do it.

"There has long been a small movement to develop a standardized method for measurement, but there has simply not been enough demand for that from buyers."

Really, Phil? What is your factual basis for this? How much would it cost to properly measure a typical (1,400 sq ft 6 rm apt) place? $100, $200? Phil, what is that as a percent of $900,000?

How about we agree that 3% margin of error is acceptable? No one in their right mind (which lives you out, you robotic moron) is talking about a discrepancy of 10 sq ft on a 700 sq ft listing. We are talking about missing 400-600 sq ft out of 2,000.

zizizi - your distinction is spot on. No one denies that there is a major problem, the question is how to fix it, and unfortunately, there is not an easy answer.

As you are likely well aware, most properties in NYC do not come with architectural drawings readily available. The legally accepted floorplans are the ones you get from the offering plan, which may or may not include a calculation of the total square footage. Many offering plans also factor in other common elements or storage spaces, etc, so there is simply no consistency. Those plans were always originally provided by an architectural firm, although they could be nearly 100 years old in some cases. So as you can imagine, methods of measuring may have varied.

StreetEasy displays the floorplans for all the units it has ever listed, so you can browse through any older building you choose and you will find the disparity that is endemic.

So given the systematic lack of floorplans, what are the possible solutions?
a) use the available floorplans and make good faith estimates on the square footage so that buyers searching with that parameter find units,
b) develop a standardized system of measurement for the interior, exterior, and common space of a unit, and require that all units coming onto the market to use this system

The obvious problem with (a) is that you are relying on the sellers, and the brokers who work for the sellers, to provide good faith estimates. Given the sellers desire to present the property in the best possible light, and given that the broker works for the seller, that system will always have flaws.

The obvious problems with (b) are scale, logistics, and cost. StreetEasy lists more than 13,000 units in Manhattan alone that are currently on the market. Assume it took 2 hours per unit to measure the rooms, draw up the plans, calculate total square footage, etc, and assume that it costs $250/ unit. That would be 26,000 man hours (3250 man days = if you had 30 people working on this full time, it would still take 4 months to just cover the current inventory), and cost $3.25 MM. Who is going to build that organization or pay for that?

Of course, most new developments have reasonably accurate floorplans, so as we move forward, the databases will steadily fill up with these, and the scope of the problem will naturally decrease. In the interim, my suggestion would be to report floorplans that are materially misrepresented to the heads of the firms where brokers work. Even if you don't believe that brokerage firms want to provide accurate information, you should at the very least believe that they want to avoid legal action. So notifying them of misrepresentation, deliberate or otherwise, *will* absolutely get their attention.

While these forums might be a cathartic release for venting frustrations, the general population here are like-minded posters, and the very nature of the dialogue keeps most professionals in the industry far away. Therefore, if you are looking for a true resolution, then a simple email to the heads of the respective firms is your best course of action. Everyone here can easily contact me via email with any examples of listings by Coldwell Banker or firms that are members of Manhattan Association of Realtors and it will get addressed.

Onward and Upward
~ Philip

FULL DISCLOSURE - I am the Chief Technologist at Coldwell Banker and President of Manhattan Association of Realtors. As a leader in the industry and a member of society, I have a vested interest in seeing the housing market and general economy turn around and start rising.

columbiacounty,

I think you're barking up the wrong tree - Philip's posts are intelligent and helpful, even if you don't agree with them, and he's completely honest about his interests, which is something a lot of people here would never dream of doing. It's posts like your first one here that are really not missed.

I always thought that columbiacounty was cool & intelligent but the last few days, apparently, s/he is off her medication.

thanks for the kind words.

here's my beef with phil...he goes on and on in his pompous way but of all of us, he might actually be in a position to do something and yet he keeps throwing it back at us.

his example of $3.2 million to get sq footage is particularly irritating. first of all, i would argue that measuring an apartment might take 2-3 minutes per room tops. double that to 6 minutes times 5 rooms--both pretty high numbers and that's 1/2 hr. double that for travel time (assumes that there is only one apt per building which is also highly conservative) and you're talking about paying $250 per hr for this?

if the real estate brokers -- and remember this guy is th #Q$%^@#president of their damn association --- decided that if was fair and equitable to begin to provide this data, don't you think they could do this far more easily than we can?

i would urge you to reconsider whether phil's posts are actually responsive to real problems particularly given his professional position.

this is a guy who on another post continued to blather on and on about how rent payments are lost money without any consideration of the potential to lose capital on a purchase.

be wary of his flowery nonsense. in my opinion, more dangerous in its own way than the more obvious lies and exaggerations of his fellow brokers.

Correct. The cost of acquiring actual square footage data is minimal and the CTO seems to have been drinking a lot of that REBNY flavored koolaid.

If you had to estimate how much measuring an apartment would increase transaction cost, you can go through the following gedankenexperiment -

Imagine that every brokerage has to, by law, make the seller sign a paper stipulating that the habitable square footage of their apartment is so and so. Imagine further that the law allows a deviation of +/- 10%

So now every seller has to spend something like an hour to measure a 1BR, maybe 3 hours to measure their 3.5BR palace.

Surely the brokerages will be happy to offer this as an extra service - "certified measuring" - since we're talking 1 hour of work + liability coverage... probably a service that should cost $200 for a 1BR. But this is NYC so let's say it ends up costing $500 for a 1BR

And since a 1BR costs about $800k, we are talking about 0.0006 of the price, or 0.06%, or 6 basis points additional transaction cost, and I'm being very generous here - realistically it'll probably be about 2 to 3 bps.

(Of course this would apply to sponsors and developers as well)

ColumbiaCounty - Your consistent perspective seems to be that simply because I am in the real estate industry, that my input is universally worthless, inaccurate, baseless, or not trustworthy.

If you are *genuinely* interested in a discussion on how to (help me) enact positive changes, then I would be more than happy to address your points, as I have been doing for others on this forum. My two requests are (a) please keep the posts respectful and focused on the issues, and (b) please use Philip instead of Phil.

Onward and Upward
~ Philip

FULL DISCLOSURE - I am the Chief Technologist at Coldwell Banker and President of Manhattan Association of Realtors. As a leader in the industry and a member of society, I have a vested interest in seeing the housing market and general economy turn around and start rising.

Philip,

There is already a standard method of measuring square footage, it is not rocket science. ANSI has a standard that could be tweaked for apartments in NYC if requested by the industry. My guess is the NYC real estate brokerage industry does NOT want a standard, as right now they can inflate the numbers with no penalty (can you find me ONE listing that under reports square footage?)

"To bring some order to this picture, the National Association of Home Builders Research Center in Upper Marlboro, Maryland organized a committee in 1994 to develop a standard method of measuring square feet for all parties in the home building industry. Two years later in 1996, the committee, which included builders, architects, lenders, appraisers, estimators, realtors, and building code and other government officials, produced a written standard, "Square Footage--Method for Calculating" which was approved by the American National Standards Institute as ANSI Z765-1966."

NYC should require someone to certify the square footage as others do:

http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/dpwes/forms/ansi_sf.pdf

If cost is an issue, how much is spent to have professional photographs done for a listing? Who pays? I suggest the cost of measurements would be equal or less than photos, and should be done at time of listing and paid by the same party.

Price per square foot is one of the major methods used to comparison shop. Inflating your square footage will likely result in a higher sale price, so the incentive is there to lie. There needs to be a standard and penalties (fines or license suspension) to prevent this.

modern,
Nice work. I was going to suggest some measurement standard that would be applied to each listing but I see that it already exists. I would love to see a Certified Square Footage (CSF) label used as a logo on listings to level the playing field for everybody.

"(can you find me ONE listing that under reports square footage?)"

Yeah, my listing, because I quote from the offering plan while just about everybody else dreams up inflated numbers. This does beg the question of whether offering plans can be trusted to provide an accurate number. How do we deal with that problem?

...Modern Perfect!! Well said.

Modern - love the research on the ANSI standards. Did a little follow-up research that revealed the following:

"This voluntary standard for measuring square footage in single-family detached and attached homes, developed by an American National Standards Committee, is the first national standard to reconcile differences in current methods for determining square footage. The standard involves the calculation and reporting of above-grade square footage and below-grade square footage in single-family houses. It is not applicable to apartment/multifamily buildings and does not cover room dimensions."

Not saying it's a bad idea, just that for apartments and other multi-family dwellings, I don't think there is a single accepted standard approach for measuring sq. footage. It was explained to me that appraisers, architects, and engineers all have a different method for measuring square footage, resulting in differences up to 8%. This doesn't excuse outright lying by agents like Rachel whose misrepresentations were upward of 30% - that is just outright fraud.

I like the CSF idea. And don't get me wrong, inflated and mis-represented square footage has always been a huge bugaboo for me too. I just learned that I have to do my own math and bid accordingly. Advise others to do the same.

Phillip: I for one greatly enjoy your posts so keep it up and don't let the trollz frustrate you out of speaking your mind. You add much more value to this site than CC ever will.

Here is a link to the ANSI Standard. Note that this applies to detached homes and attached homes, but not multi-family. It needs to be tweaked for apartments but it is a good start.

http://www.greenwoodlands.com/images/ansi20standards.pdf

If the industry WANTED a standard, they could work with ANSI to get one. I submit they do NOT want a standard, as square footage would shrink and price per square foot would go up.

Long term, I think it would be beneficial for everyone, but brokers are very short term oriented (let's lie about the square footage and make your apartment look cheaper!). If you want to make a difference, give ANSI a call and start the process.

Can someone tell me what the hell we're talking about?

Who is chief technologist?

Philip---let's see if we can communicate.

http://bhsusa.com/detail.aspx?id=535231

take a look at the listing above....someone (presumably at BHS) went to a lot of trouble to put precise room dimensions on the floor plan. i just added up all of the room dimensions as shown and came to a total of 1,350.6 sq ft. this did not include any spaces on the plan that do not show dimensions, i.e. bathrooms or closets. I count five closets -- shall we estimate 20 sq ft each for an add'l 100? 2 baths --estimate 40 sq ft each for an add'l 80. all in, i make it 1,530 sq ft.

yet within the body copy of the listing, it says approximately 2,200 sq ft. or a difference of 30%. Please check my math and see if I have made an error.

if i am correct, i would be interested in your thoughts on the following:

can we agree that a 30% difference is not an approximation?
can we agree that once the effort was made to measure and cite all the room dimensions, that presenting the true square footage becomes a trivial exercise?
can we begin to work on a grievance process through your organization with real teeth to discourage this type of misrepresentation.

Thanks in advance, Philip.

It is hard to go after brokers for inflating square feet since the disclaimer clearly says "All numbers are estimates." (or something like that)

FULL DISCLOSURE - I am the Chief Technologist at my house. As a leader in the industry and a member of society, I have a vested interest in seeing the housing market and general economy turn around and start rising.

I like CC's challenge, although I would put the closets at closer to 25 and the bathroom at closer to 50 for a total of 1565. I would probably round up to 1600 in my head. Still a FAR cry from the listed 2200.

Phillip, your move.

Modern - Although there some brokers at fault here, remember that the party that benefits from an inflated sales price is a seller. If a buyer pays more for a property based on an inflated square foot count, the seller walks away with the cash. Meanwhile, there is a significant legal and financial risk to a brokerage firm (and none to a seller) for misrepresentation. The nominal increase in the commission is peanuts compared to the risk of litigation. As an executive of a real estate firm, I can give you absolute assurances that the firm is adamantly opposed to any real estate agent deliberately misrepresenting square footage.

The fact that it often occurs is because firms do not have the resources to review every posting that goes to every website for factual accuracy. Which is where community policing and crowdsourcing come in. If you sent me the errant listings, we would correct it immediately. If we saw the same broker repeatedly put out false information, the broker would be fired. No firm can take on a liability that large or risk Dept of State intervention.

So everyone here has a specific recourse and remedy for every time they see an erroneous listing. If you (we) collectively work to identify each misrepresentation, this whole thing could be eradicated very quickly.

Regarding the ANSI standards, I looked through the site and found the actual standards here http://www.nahbrc.org/bookstore/bd1003w.aspx . Here is the description
"This voluntary standard for measuring square footage in single-family detached and attached homes, developed by an American National Standards Committee, is the first national standard to reconcile differences in current methods for determining square footage. The standard involves the calculation and reporting of above-grade square footage and below-grade square footage in single-family houses. It is not applicable to apartment/multifamily buildings and does not cover room dimensions." Because of that last caveat, we will have to see what would be required to adapt it to NYC properties.

Regarding cost, the lowest photography costs are $199, and the average is probably in the $300 range. The onsite photography is easily an hour, and the editing, cropping, and posting of the pictures probably averages another hour.

Given that this would only be worth doing if you had architects or certified professionals creating the floor plans, I seriously doubt it could be done for less than $250 and I can't imagine how the onsite measuring, commuting, off-site floor plan creation, etc could take less than 2 hours. Naturally, you can try re-using certain plans from the same line, but anytime you do that, you introduce inaccuracies. A simple example is that support colums are smaller on higher floors, so an identical unit has slightly larger interior square footage, and you would want to factor that in when creating 'certified' floor plans.

I actually have ideas for taking this concept much farther, including concepts like
a) break out total square footage to specify living areas, storage areas (closets), entertaining areas, etc;
b) include volume (i.e. multiply by ceiling heights) to differentiate loft space;
c) getting sites like StreetEasy to add a search option to only return listings with 'certified' floor plans

So if there is a consumer and industry push for these 'certified' measurements, then it would be valuable to consider incorporating other aspects of the measurement.

At the end of the day, it is going to come back to consumer (buyer) demand. If there are parties here that seriously want to take this on, then I can certainly help.

Onward and Upward
~ Philip

FULL DISCLOSURE - I am the Chief Technologist at Coldwell Banker and President of Manhattan Association of Realtors. As a leader in the industry and a member of society, I have a vested interest in seeing the housing market and general economy turn around and start rising.

ok gentlemen (and ladies);

he has not answered one single question.

"can we agree that a 30% difference is not an approximation?
can we agree that once the effort was made to measure and cite all the room dimensions, that presenting the true square footage becomes a trivial exercise?
can we begin to work on a grievance process through your organization with real teeth to discourage this type of misrepresentation."

this is my point precisely....he loves to go on and on and on but says nothing.

i just sent him "an errant listing" and he has completely ignored it.

Phillip

You Say "At the end of the day, it is going to come back to consumer (buyer) demand. If there are parties here that seriously want to take this on, then I can certainly help".

If you spend some time on this board you'll see that this is a very hot topic and the cause for much of the disrespect and disdain for all brokers. I would think that the brokerage community would want to adapt some standard to elevate their reputations and get out from under all of the criticism of being liars or sleazy snakes.

Also please resonfd to Columbia Count'y example of 30% inflation of SQ FT,

ColumbiaCounty - I agree with your (and OTNYC) approximation and the text certainly seems well off from the measured dimensions. My suggested recourse is
a) send an email to Wendy, the agent, requesting that she correct the text (or provide back-up for her estimate)
b) contact the manager of the office to request that he follow up with Wendy
2 Fifth Avenue
Main #: 212-906-0500
Main Fax: 212-906-0549
c) Contact REBNY (Real Estate Board of NY) to complain - http://rebny.com/contact_us.jsp

This firm is *not* a member of Manhattan Association of Realtors, so I can not assist directly. However, if(when) you find examples of listings by firms that *are* a member of MANAR http://manarrealtor.com/manar_realtor/find.asp then you should follow the above steps, and add in
d) Contact Philip to complain.

I would suggest that you follow the above steps somewhat in sequence, as I believe that in most cases, you will not need to progress beyond (a) the broker or (b) the manager. But certainly, do not hesitate to go to the associations, as we are highly aware of the risk of misrepresentation by members.

Onward and Upward
~ Philip

FULL DISCLOSURE - I am the Chief Technologist at Coldwell Banker and President of Manhattan Association of Realtors. As a leader in the industry and a member of society, I have a vested interest in seeing the housing market and general economy turn around and start rising.

ok---you kind of answered one question.

what about the next two?

"can we agree that once the effort was made to measure and cite all the room dimensions, that presenting the true square footage becomes a trivial exercise?
can we begin to work on a grievance process through your organization with real teeth to discourage this type of misrepresentation."

i assume that you would agree that emailing the agent and calling the office manager will not serve to seriously discourage this type of misrepresentation?

Philip: Maybe you can help with this one, from your own firm:
http://www.cbhk.com/property/property.asp?PRM_MlsNumber=550783&PRM_MlsName=Kinnexus
Looks like about 3300; might even be 3400. 3600 isn't an egregious overstatement. The systemic problem, as others have said, is that the errors always seem to go in the same direction. How often is a 3300 sq.ft. apartment listed as 3000?

Another interesting thing about that listing - from your own firm - is the sheer quantity of hype. Let's count the superlatives:
1) superb
2) elegant
3) prestigious
4) gracious
5) enormous
6) elegant (again)
7) gorgeous
8) sweeping
9) architectural gem.
10) bathed in light.
11) White Glove service
12) gracious (again)
13) huge
14) elegant (yet again)
15) exquisite
16) wonderful
17) perfect

Do you wonder why most people don't take broker descriptions seriously?

ColumbiaCounty -

(a) calculating total square footage would be a trivial exercise if there was a common standard. In most offering plans, the entire interior area is included (columns, walls, pipes, etc), which is why there can be significant differences from just adding up the interiors of each room (btw, I seriously doubt that would bridge the gap in the specific listing you mentioned here, so am not trying to defend this 2200 sq ft estimate)

(b) the grievance process is already fully established. I highlighted the steps above that get you started. In the event that you purchased a property based on misrepresented sq footage, you could sue the brokerage firm. Buyers have won those suits in the past, which is why the executives of the firms will be so responsive to you if you reach out and bring up the erroneous listing.

(c) I am a big believer in the power of community. Given the number of listings you are seeing in your search process, I would fully expect that even a small number of diligent participants in this forum could quickly bring to light nearly all the floor plans in question, and the managers of each firm would then pay specific attention to listings posted by those specific brokers.

West81st - I have emailed the broker to ask about who provided the estimate on square footage. I agree with you that it is probably within 10%, so not egregious (thankfully), but will never-the-less look into it.

We have been focusing almost entirely on the broker involvement, but it is important to also consider the sellers for all these units. Lets use the BHS listing as example http://bhsusa.com/detail.aspx?id=535231
(1) do you believe that the seller has seen the listing posted with the inflated information?
(2) If yes, then does the seller believe that the unit is approx 2200 sq ft?
(3) If no, then has the seller instructed the broker to change it?
(4) If the seller knows it is wrong, and has not instructed the broker to change it, then do you hold the same impression of the seller as you do the broker?

Legally, the broker is the liable party, but I am more interested in trying to broaden your focus on the root cause here.

Onward and Upward
~ Philip

FULL DISCLOSURE - I am the Chief Technologist at Coldwell Banker and President of Manhattan Association of Realtors. As a leader in the industry and a member of society, I have a vested interest in seeing the housing market and general economy turn around and start rising.

Philip: It seems heartless to blame the owner in this case, since she's dead. I guess you could blame her son, but that's a stretch. Sorry, this one's all on th broker.

Even when the owner is breathing and sentient, the broker bears responsibility for the contents of the listing, period. That's not just a fine legal principle. It's simple common sense. She's the professional.

further to your organization;

this listing

http://www.cbhk.com/property/property.asp?PRM_Community=Upper%20West%20Side&PRM_MLSNumber=642852&PRM_MlsName=Kinnexus&VAR_AgentCode=2127&VAR_OfficeCode=*%20INVALID%20FIELD%20*&VAR_QueryString=VAR_SearchSubType=openhouse*VAR_SearchType=apt*MapStatus=LISTONLY

says 1700 sq ft yet when i add up the stated room dimensions i come to 1,200. do not think baths and closets make up the difference.

phllip:

"c) I am a big believer in the power of community. Given the number of listings you are seeing in your search process, I would fully expect that even a small number of diligent participants in this forum could quickly bring to light nearly all the floor plans in question, and the managers of each firm would then pay specific attention to listings posted by those specific brokers."

I am happy to begin with your firm...note questions above from me and west81st. please consider these as formal requests for revision to these listings. Would be very helpful if you can let us know as you make the changes or, of course, if you dispute our calculations.

> My suggested recourse is
a) send an email to Wendy, the agent, requesting that she correct the text (or provide back-up for her estimate)
b) contact the manager of the office to request that he follow up with Wendy
2 Fifth Avenue
Main #: 212-906-0500
Main Fax: 212-906-0549
c) Contact REBNY (Real Estate Board of NY) to complain - http://rebny.com/contact_us.jsp

This is funny. I estimate an approximately 0% chance that if one follows these 3 steps for a 20%+ off square footage listing, that the number in the listing will change.

I estimate an approximately 100% chance one will be ignored (most likely at level a)) or will be given a response that the figure is an estimate.

philip:

http://www.cbhk.com/property/property.asp?PRM_Community=Upper%20West%20Side&PRM_MLSNumber=638386&PRM_MlsName=Kinnexus&VAR_AgentCode=2096&VAR_OfficeCode=*%20INVALID%20FIELD%20*&VAR_QueryString=VAR_SearchSubType=newlistings*VAR_SearchType=apt*MapStatus=LISTONLY

listing shows approximate sq ft at 2,926 (oddly exact representation)---very easy estimate with two squares equally 2,360. this does include all bath, closets, etc. this is a 19.5% variance.

I would only call them on condo listings. Cooperative apartments can always claim to take an allocation of the common space so it can especially exaggerate in smaller buildings with less apartments to spread the common space over.

philip:

http://www.cbhk.com/property/property.asp?PRM_Community=Midtown%20East%20Side&PRM_MLSNumber=200659&PRM_MlsName=Kinnexus&VAR_AgentCode=2074&VAR_OfficeCode=*%20INVALID%20FIELD%20*&VAR_QueryString=VAR_SearchSubType=newlistings*VAR_SearchType=apt*MapStatus=LISTONLY

1,393 not counting closets and baths---published figure 2,800

crescent22: Isn't it the other way around?

ColumbiaCounty - First, you have to multiply the width of the entire space by the length of the entire space. Adding up the individual rooms is always going to be less than the square footage, as represented by the offering plan.

When you find cases where the number is off by more than 10%, then please follow the notification process I indicated above. For simplicity, let me slightly expand the process I suggested above and make it generic so it applies to all listings:

a) send an email to the agent, requesting that he/she correct the text (or provide back-up for his/her estimate)

b) contact the manager of the office to request that he/she follow up with the agent

c) (if it is a Coldwell Banker listing) contact Philip with a copy of the email you sent to the agent & manager

d) Contact REBNY (Real Estate Board of NY) if you are not satisfied with the response - http://rebny.com/contact_us.jsp

e) (it is a MANAR firm - http://manarrealtor.com/manar_realtor/find.asp) Contact Philip with a copy of the email you sent to the agent & manager.

I hope you will appreciate that following this process will work much better and faster than trying to direct listings to me via this forum. Focusing on only one firm makes a negligible difference, we need to address it with the full industry. And if I am the bottleneck where all these complaints *start*, then it will bog down at the very beginning. Your best use for me is *after* the respective broker and managers have been contacted, *if* the refuse to address a material discrepancy.

Onward and Upward
~ Philip

FULL DISCLOSURE - I am the Chief Technologist at Coldwell Banker and President of Manhattan Association of Realtors. As a leader in the industry and a member of society, I have a vested interest in seeing the housing market and general economy turn around and start rising.

philip: you have three legitimate examples from your own firm....man up and do something. trust me, my math is 100% correct....get these listings changed to be honest or join your brethren.

Philip,

We can all give you thousands of examples and make thousands of calls to listing brokers. However, your suggested solution puts the burden of discovery and enforcement of accurate measurements on the buyer and doesn't solve the industry wide problem. . This will only further expose your association members as liars and their reputations would suffer. I would think that as president of Manhattan Association of Realtors you would support an industry wide standard of measurement that would insure the buyer that the SQ FT measurements are certified accurate. This could eliminate at least one of the issues that most consumers cite when they tar and feather brokers.

Crescent - you got it reversed. Condos include common space as a standard practice, co-ops typically don't officially represent square footage so it is up to the hired architect/engineer to do that.

NYCDreamer -

(a) I absolutely support an industry-wide standard of measurement. As we discussed in the post above, it does not yet exist, so it has to be created. I volunteered to actively participate if someone on the forum wanted to lead the charge. That offer stands.

(b) there is *no* additional burden of discovery on the buyers, as you guys (gender nuetral) are already out finding them in the course of your active search efforts.

(c) there *is* a nominal incremental burden of the buyer in the form of an action - which is to simply contact the agent and request an explanation for the discrepency. We could even create a template of an email so it is a one click endeavor for you. I believe that in most cases, that single action will get a resolution, and presumably, it is a property that you are already interested in, so the clarification could be incorporated into other questions you are naturally asking for.

(d) there *is* an additional burden for me in addressing any issues that are not resolved by the broker. I am willing to take this on, assuming that you will work with me.

I continue to be perfectly candid about what I can and can not accomplish. Take the step of requesting clarification and if you are unsatisfied, then you escalate to a manager, then to the association (including me).

In parallel, I will happily participate in an effort to adapt the ANSI Standard proposed above (or develop comparable), and I can greatly accelerate the adoption and promotion of that industry wide.

If what you truly want is change and improvement, these are great opportunities to be involved in that. Otherwise, these forums serve no purpose beyond venting.

Onward and Upward
~ Philip

FULL DISCLOSURE - I am the Chief Technologist at Coldwell Banker and President of Manhattan Association of Realtors. As a leader in the industry and a member of society, I have a vested interest in seeing the housing market and general economy turn around and start rising.

i sent you three examples from your own company. in the time it took for you to write the above, you could have research and fixed. so...either do something or move on.

Philip,

We appreciate the fact that you support industry wide standards and you "volunteered to actively participate if someone on the forum wanted to lead the charge". I for one don't want to lead the charge nor do I think it's appropriate that SE posters or buyers lead the charge. I think your association should lead the charge. I would think (as I said in two posts before) that your association should spearhead this effort as a good PR measure and try to salvage the reputation of it's members. There's a reason you are held in such low regard and if you refuse to make this effort you deserve it.

Philip,

do you think it is incumbent on baseball, football and basketball fans to make sure that the games are fairly officiated?
do you think that investors in the stock market should lead the charge to make sure that brokers are honest?

if i were you, i would be trying to lead the charge on this for your industry because it would be a major point of differentiation for the participating firms and start the process of rehabilitating the truly awful image of your industry and its participants.

Surely, you dont think that it is a small bunch of malcontents on these boards who are the only ones that hold you and your co-workers in contempt.

You were a necessary evil and yet another thing that people were willing to put up with when times were good.

FULL DISCLOSURE: You have acted precisely as I expected you would but I did try. for you, phil downwards ever more.

Not that Phil will acknowledge me, but suck it Phil. Long and hard. The original complaint was that you're a shill for the RE industry and then people calmly and collectedly give you example after example and all you say is email the broker, call the office manager. Brilliant. We acosted the by now infamous agent rachel and all she said was, "not my fault"
Now what? Grin and bear it? Don't you get it?! This is why 407PAS and the rest of us think brokers are totally useless!! You included, you computer hack. Blah blah blah

Philip: Many thanks for the obviously thoughtful and detailed information.

ColumbiaCounty - Your math is not at question, but 'what is included' is in question. Using one of the listings you provided above, http://www.cbhk.com/property/638386 let me illustrate the discrepancy.

Listing shows approximate sq ft at 2,926 (oddly exact representation)

You wrote "very easy estimate with two squares equally 2,360. this does include all bath, closets, etc. this is a 19.5% variance."

The shape looks more complex to me, so I had to break it into sections to capture the entire space. http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pDI9gY-TzRNl2AZnvNfwiXg I broke it out as detailed as possible so you can see exactly how I calculated the measurements. When walls are included, I calculated square footage at 3289 sq ft. When walls are excluded, the measurement was 2552. Given the number of estimations I had to make, I would not bank on either of these as accurate.

However, the broker's number 2926 falls comfortable in the middle of those, so I would be comfortable that it is fairly close to accurate.

Hopefully this helps as an example of how to check the calculations, and if you agree with the above, then please remove this one from your list of misrepresentations.

Onward and Upward
~ Philip

FULL DISCLOSURE - I am the Chief Technologist at Coldwell Banker and President of Manhattan Association of Realtors. As a leader in the industry and a member of society, I have a vested interest in seeing the housing market and general economy turn around and start rising.

Nice PR by Phil. Make it look like you are doing something but do absolutely nothing.

Philip,

I am impressed and I mean that sincerely...I took a long look at your analysis on the square footage. While I disagree with your allowance of 1.5 feet for exterior walls and 1 foot for interior, I think the much more interesting point is how much the overall number swings on a percentage basis.

I think your analysis speaks to the absolute need for standards so that people can easily understand what they are getting. If 20% of the stated square feet is "in the walls" so to speak...then tell me.

Once again, my apologies...you did the work.

best

CC

"This is why 407PAS and the rest of us think brokers are totally useless!!"

Well, that's not quite what I said. ;-) Brokers are in business because sellers hire them. The fault lies with the sellers, after all. Anything we can do to make the real estate industry fairer and more honest is a good thing, in my opinion. I know brokers are put under pressure, by sellers and by the need to earn income, so they sometimes inflate square footage or shade the truth in other ways in order to try to gain some competitive advantage. I tend to think that the misrepresentations hurt them more than they help them, especially in the age of instant communication, where people can work together to quickly uncover the truth.

Good thread - UW Renter, suck it back at you. Philip has added more value in a single post to this forum than you have in your entire series of posts.

CC - big of you to admit that it is not an exact science measuring square footage, and there truly are no exact standards. Appraisers typically go by inside the walls, architects include walls, and engineers include walls and any plumbing/electrical/mechanical. These typically vary by as much as 10-15% depending on size of walls, mechanicals, etc.

Philip - I am not as vehement a naysayer of brokers as most on this board. I actually have had overwhelmingly positive experiences, and I have been in this city 12 years, rented countless apartments, bought 2, and sold 1. Yeah, there are schmucks, but you can avoid them. If there is a dishonest broker representing a property you want to buy, follow Philip's advice. It is not his job to track down dishonest brokers, whether they work for his firm or not. He is right to allow the listing broker the opportunity to make things right, it is the professional thing to do. And if a property you want to buy seems to overstate the sq. footage, do what I did. Ask how they calculated it, take your own measurements, and if there is a significant difference, try to figure out why. If the broker says the square footage was calculated based on architect's or engineer's methods, do your own calculation, split the difference, and price according to that number.

This does not excuse the many listings that are clearly 25% or more overstated. I agree with all that there should be better standards, and that the real estate industry should take the lead in driving toward increased transparency.

ColumbiaCounty - thank you for the last post. I am glad to know that positive value is getting through, despite the many bad experiences everyone has had. I went back to the spreadsheet and reduced the wall dimensions based on your suggestion (1' for exterior and 6" for interior seem fair?) The final number now is 2986, which is very close to the quoted 2926.

Also, picking up on your comment about how much walls add to the square footage, I added in a calculation at the bottom. In this unit, its 14.5%. Obviously, in lofts or more open layouts, that would be less, but it is probably a valuable factor to bear in mind when evaluating the usable space of apartments you are considering as part of your search.

More than ever, there is need to be clear about the methods used, and I am actively researching the ANSI modification concept. As above, it would be really great to have community involvement in that process, so if anyone feels so inclined, you know how to reach me.

407PAS - "I tend to think that the misrepresentations hurt them more than they help them, especially in the age of instant communication, where people can work together to quickly uncover the truth." Totally agree, and that is what I was referencing above in the crowdsourcing. In a separate thread, I proposed that people who are on Twitter start using standardized hashtags, like #nycopenhouse, or #nycrealestate, in order to more efficiently disseminate information (tips as well as errors).

Using this thread as an example, if you went to an openhouse and found that the square footage or some other aspect of the listing was misrepresented, you could post some thing like '#nycopenhouse 123 Main 12-B : don't waste time, windows 3ft from brick wall.'

Cheers,
~ Philip

FULL DISCLOSURE - I am the Chief Technologist at Coldwell Banker and President of Manhattan Association of Realtors. As a leader in the industry and a member of society, I have a vested interest in seeing the housing market and general economy turn around and start rising.

Philip,

I also thank you for your effort and the spreadsheet showing the 14.5% differential when calculating wall space. You continue, however, to insist that "we" should join you (RE industry) in instituting a standard for sq ft measurement and should also actively police your industry. CC and others have all rejected this claim and suggest the the RE industry and your organization should lead the charge and develop the standards and police your members. For over 25 years I've been involved in my industry (industrial distribution) in establishing standards and ethical procedures for my industry and would never suggest that my customers or the government should police my industry. Please respond I've asked you this question three times on this thread without an response.

Blame the parents or the kids?

Start with management. Too many companies are in trouble because of questionable management.

Managers should inform brokers that they must deliver room dimiensions that are as true as possible.

If the rooms are irregular shapes, then qualify your measurement in the body copy of the description.

And managers and principals should inform brokers that if they misrepresent an apartment in any way, either deliberately or through negligence, they will forfeit their commission and be liable for court costs.

All the companies should agreee on something like this.

Put the onus on the brokers.

Maybe I'm a dreamer, but you'd see things clean up fast if an agent's bottom line was on the table.

NYCDreamer - RE brokers are being collectively dragged over the coals in these forums as inept, fraudulent, shills, doormats, etc, etc,. Why would you want to leave the develop of the standards, or enforcement of such in their hands?

I don't understand how one could be genuinely passionate about an issue, but then reject an opportunity to participate in a meaningful way.

The National Association of REALTORS has a code of ethics http://www.realtor.org/MemPolWeb.nsf/pages/Code, as does REBNY http://www.rebny.com/code_of_ethics.jsp and members who violate those are regularly sanctioned. It is clear from the comments on these boards that some members of the community clearly do not feel they are sufficient.

Again, its just an invitation (not an obligation) to participate. It is your choice whether or not to play a role, but it is disingenuous to complain about a non-responsive industry.

I am highly committed to transparency, and have great faith in the power of consumer advocacy and participation. I believe that the shaping of the future of the industry must be influenced by the markets.

I hope that answers your question,

Cheers,
~ Philip

FULL DISCLOSURE - I am the Chief Technologist at Coldwell Banker and President of Manhattan Association of Realtors. As a leader in the industry and a member of society, I have a vested interest in seeing the housing market and general economy turn around and start rising.

Philip,

"but it is disingenuous to complain about a non-responsive industry".

Are you kidding? So you agree that your members are "inept, fraudulent, shills, doormats, etc, etc,. Why would you want to leave the develop of the standards, or enforcement of such in their hands?

The question was for you "why would you want your customers to force you to tell the truth rather than you propose some strict regulations and self regulate your industry. Sounds like it's you who doesn't trust your members to tell the truth and do the right thing. I'd resign from your organization if my president suggested that his members were unwilling or unable to fix this mess but needed their customers to insure ethical behavior of your members.

NYCDreamer - Yes, I believe transparency is fundamentally a good thing. I believe that customer feedback is fundamentally a good thing. And I believe that external oversight of any organization, association, industry, etc, is fundamentally a good thing.

You suggested that the Real Estate industry "propose some strict regulations and self regulate your industry". I provided you a link describing the well established code of ethics and enforcement policies. I have also laid out a simple process for any one to bring forward a complaint against a broker. A broker or a customer makes a complaint, it gets investigated, it gets addressed. Everything you are asking for already exists.

If you have a specific complaint, simply notifying someone of the issue will start the process and it will get resolved. Surely you must have a process in your industry for customers to file a complaint?

I truly apologize if I have not addressed your concern, I just can't understand how inviting active and opinionated posters on this forum to participate in improving the floor plan standards would be perceived as a negative. Buyers have the greatest vested interest in how the standards ultimately end up, why would you suggest that they be excluded?

Cheers,
~ Philip

FULL DISCLOSURE - I am the Chief Technologist at Coldwell Banker and President of Manhattan Association of Realtors. As a leader in the industry and a member of society, I have a vested interest in seeing the housing market and general economy turn around and start rising.

Philip,

I'm obviously not expressing myself well because we're not communicating. I believe we want the NYC RE community to develop and implement these standard measurement procedures so buyers can rely upon certified measurements when comparing properties. We also want the RE Community to regulate and enforce these standards without consumer oversight. Obviously the consumer should have an avenue to file a complaint but the oversight should be done by the RE Community. The average 6% commission paid by the buyer of over $60,000 should be more than enough to cover the $200-$300 cost of a certified measurement.

On this thread you have continued to argue that the consumer should devise these standards and act as the broker's watchdog. I think this is ridiculous and is not in the interest of your members. As a buyer, I can easily do the measurements and calculations myself and find properties on SE. The less value added services the broker provides the less he is needed to make the sale and the less likely the 6% commission will last.

NYCDreamer - Thanks for clarifying that there are actually two issues:
(1) Creation/adoption of a standard for floorplans - I had posted above that I would actively look into the ANSI Standards and see what could be adapted for the NYC market. In the interest of setting realistic expectations, this is something that might take a little while, which is not a function of the priority, but rather limited resources. I do believe in the value, and will certainly keep the forum apprised.

(2a) Enforcement of the future standards - this will be something that gets developed along with the standards themselves. Once there is sufficient demand for the newly created 'certified' floorplans, I would imagine that the cost will be something that is just rolled into the marketing services provided by the broker (like photo's, staging, ads, etc).

(2b) Errors and misrepresentations on today's square footage - Consumer feedback provides an additional layer of checks and balances on errors and misrepresentation. Rather than look at that as somehow off-loading responsibility, I invite you to consider it an effort to respond to flagrant violations quickly and efficiently. The simple reality is that I don't personally see more than 2-3 floorplans on an average day, while you and the other active posters probably collectively see many hundreds, if not thousands of floorplans. Again, let me stress I do not consider this a substitution for internal industry policing, but rather a supplemental pool of very savvy, sharp-eyed, and vocal observers.

Thanks,
~ Philip

FULL DISCLOSURE - I am the Chief Technologist at Coldwell Banker and President of Manhattan Association of Realtors. As a leader in the industry and a member of society, I have a vested interest in seeing the housing market and general economy turn around and start rising.

Philip,

Great. Keep us updated to your progress in establishing the standard and the procedures.

As for consumer feedback...I feel that if you establish the standard and impose some real penalties for the listing broker abuse (as suggested by CC and RobertLC321 above) you'll get all the feedback you want. Both positive and negative.

Philip, Progress report? Update

Philip It's been about 9 weeks. Any update on your progress with the new standards?

Phillip it's now been four months. How's the sq ft standard coming. As president of the Manhattan Association of Realtors we hoped for some update from you.