Thoughts on the Riverhouse in BPC?

Great building, beautiful. But way overpriced, up to $1700-1800/ft2 on the high end, with normal for BPC (high for NYC) maintenance/RE taxes. Also note the 1% flip tax, which is highly unusual for a condo, which doesn't even go to the building but to the BPC Authority, a public agency which funnels most of the money it receives back to the NYC gov't, which in turn doesn't use the funds for low-income housing as promised but for the urgent need of the day. Sales are rumored to be very slow, and walking into a rough RE market by the day...

I think it's a great building, and depending on the line quite reasonable price per square foot.I find it to be far more fairly priced than many other developments.Again, really depends on the line, but some of them are quite good deals.

That last commenter must be a broker with time on 'em's hands from an empty sales office...

uhh, nytjunkie, the original poster was asking for feedback.You gave feedback. I gave feedback. You provided some interesting info in your first post. However, in answering the original poster's question, I felt it would be helpful to point out that some of the lines offer far greater value than others. I am currently considering a line that is far less than 1700-1800/foot and has a great protected view. So chill.
--anon#3

I've been to the building sales office a couple of times and have been up in the building twice. Depending upon the unit, the views are great. I'm not at all impressed with the finishes. I think the kitchen and master bathroom look cheap. The kitchen in particular with all that white corian will be a nightmare to keep clean. I also think the units are way overpriced given the enormous fees. They try to market BPC as such a wonderful place to live, but it's out of the way and convenient to almost nothing. You can definitely get more for your overall dollar outside of BPC.

I've been to the sales office too. Agree that it's overpriced given the monthly charges and the 1% flip tax. Look at comparables at Ritz and Millennium Tower - granted Riverhouse has a better location being in the middle of BPC and right near the new developments at 101 Warren, but still I think about $150-$200/sqft priced too high. Waiting to go see the Visionaire, as well as waiting on the development on site 23/24 later this year

Problem with BPC is the high monthly maintenance/RE taxes - this one in particular seems on the higher end of the scale though - usually starting around $2 per sf to begin with, but then it starts running up over the next few years, eventually to %2.50 - $3 sf. Now imagine this on top of your mortgage...

I visited the building. I didn't think it was good value. The cost of the unit plus the monthly charges was just too high for what is being offered. If you love BPC, there are places that offer better value on the market.

I do like the fact that the buildings are going to be environmentally friendly.

can someone elaborate on the flip tax?is this different from other situations?

What that means is that after you buy an apartment, when you sell it, you as the seller have to pay an amount equal to 1% of the gross purchase price (i.e. $10K per $1mm). In most buldings which have a flip tax the amount goes to the building, either into the reserve fund or to pay for ongoing upkeep, so the owners benefit indirectly from the use of this tax. However, in the case of Riverhouse, this goes to the BPCA, who owns the land on which the building is built (the condominium technically rents the land from the BPCA), so you probably won't benefit from the use of the flip tax except more broadly as a resident of BPC. In effect, the flip tax adds to the overall cost of owning a condo at the Riverhouse.

thanx, nytj.I assume this holds true for all bpc buildings?

No; that's what makes the flip tax at Riverhouse notable. To the best of my knowledge, and I've looked at neighborhood RE for several years, no other building has a flip tax. BPC area maintenance / RE taxes are higher than the rest of the city, but that's a separate issue. You do get some services for your RE tax dollars -- the area is safe and very well maintained, especially along the water. It's really nice there in the spring/summer/fall.

Yes it is very nice in the spring/summer/fall.Today with the howling wind at my window...not so much.

Beautiful building, good floorplans, environmentally friendly and great views in some units are the positives. High cost per sf, flip taxes, landlease and high maintenance/RE taxes are the negatives. There's alot of competition in BPC. If you want to pay up for the newest and one of the nicest buildings there, Riverhouse is your place. If you're in that price range, you've got alot of choices in BPC.

agree with #16, and also with a previous poster who mentioned that some of the lines are superior value to others. To me it is so by far the best site in bpc given it's proximity to tribeca etc. The new one far downtown (visionnaire?) going up is arguably the most beautiful spot on the river, but then you REALLY are removed from things.I currently live a block from the Riverhouse, and I don't feel cut off at all.

it is right next to one of the biggest graves and next to million of wall street trolls who just think about squeezing people's balls. no charm at all!!

keep in mind too that in the summer the parks down in BPC are really over crowded. With all the new buildings in the area it's not so relaxing once you have the lawn completely full with people. There just isn't room for people to go anywhere down there anymore & there are 2 more rentals coming to the area not to mention all the new condo development in Tribeca which will add to an already over crowded area.

#19--true, but the reality is that we live in NYC, and any beautiful place is bound to get more crowded. I live on the water and admit I prefer the times when it is less crowded. But there is always somewhere to go (just not on the lawn itself) and I will still love it even when thebuildings are all built. It will still be one of the more beautiful and relaxing places in the city.

#20 - I agree. I've lived UES, UWS, Brooklyn, and now in BPC. Bottom line is that there are too many people in NYC period, so if I'm going to be packed in, I'd rather it be down here, where the other annoyances of living in NYC are not an issue (i.e. traffic noise, pan handlers, petty crime). It is one of the safest and cleanest areas in town. Granted, it was more livable a few years ago when there were fewer buildings and before Gov. Pataki had the stupid idea of buying radio ads telling everybody to "come to BPC" (I could have strangled him for that one).

Gov. Pataki is also the idiot who ever since 9/11 tried to micro-manage BPC and downtown redevelopment, totally beyond the WTC site itself, from up in Albany. Why the hell Bloomberg let him do so (in exchange for support of Bloomberg's pet project to redevelop the Javits Center area, with that stupid Olympic bid to justify a new football stadium?) is beyond me.

anyone look at this one and compare to the visionaire? Which one do u prefer?

I've been to both River House and Visionaire. the Visionaire is nicer in term of amenities and some floor plans. pretty large apts as well. we were very interested in one unit until they told us the price would increase by 100K the next day and that we had to sign the purchase agreement in the morning along with a check of 10k to get it a t the current price. sorry but I don't have this amount available in a 3 hour time frame and I won't make a decision for such an investment in 3 hour neither. it was really pushy.
the river house is also closer to Tribeca, etc than Visionaire. down there you don't have a lot of options in terms of restaurants, shopping, etc.
after 5 yr in BPC south, I've been in BPC north since last year and love it.
the river house would be the ideal location but I don't like the kitchen, the baths are fine. good value in the lower floors but get really expensive as soon as you get views.
what are the new rentals coming up in the area? where are site 23 and 24?

I cannot understand why anyone would want to live in BPC. BPC is in a very vulnerable spot regarding terror attacks.

I think sites 23 and 24 are just west of the ballfields. They seem pretty small sites. I agree that there really is no comparison between the location of riverhouse as supposed to visionaire. Riverhouse location is ideal, visionaire is off in the middle of nowhere (albeit a very beautiful nowhere)
Riverhouse pricing is really all over the place--some units I find really well priced, others not. I liked the kitchens, actually. Not as supremely high end as some other developments, but classy and clean,

Is everyone blind and deaf to what is going to come to New York again. Who would be so crazy as to live in the target area.

what makes you think we (BPC)are the target area, 27???you think their plans are confined to below chambers street???

I agree with #28, except Wall Street is probably one of their target areas, but who knows. We have to live where we want.

Ultimately if we think about it we are all in danger. Some more than others, true, but as 29 says--assuming we are making a life here we need to live where we want and live our lives with a degree of normalcy

Back to the building for the moment, I found out you also have to put in a security deposit equal to one year's common charges (maintenance and PILOT). You get back the interest on this amount every year, and you get the money back when you sell, but on top of the flip tax this is also unusual for a BPC condo and totally obnoxious.

That's why sales here have been dead compared to 200 Chambers and 101 Warren

If you're buying at the Riverhouse, check the financials. Some of the worst we've ever seen. Almost criminal, make sure you look at the offering plan before you buy. Your monthly charges will go very high in just a few years.
Remember when you buy in new buildings they tell you that your monthly expenses won't change for maybe 5 years (approx depending on the building) BUT that means five years from when the hole was dug!!! By the time you move in, you may be into the 3-4 yr already.

The last 2 buildings to be built in BPC will parallel the ballfields. They will be Milstein buildings just like their Liberty buildings on the southern part of BPC.

#33--When you say "almost crimuinal" are you only referring to the fact that the common charges will go up quite a bit in a few years? I am aware that there is no tax abatement so I was not aware that the "PILOT" will change, but I know they are abating the cc for 7 years. (7 years from when is a good question). But is there anything else you refer to?

I am not #33, but I agree with the "criminal" comment. The starting monthlies are in the range of $1.50-$1.70 /sqft which is already high to begin with, but then the abatement of the cc starts expiring over the next 6 yrs, so that very quickly your monthly charges can easily climb to around $2.50/sqft, which is insane.

7 years is from when the hole was first dug for the building!!!!!!!!!! Your charges will double almost every 2-3 years!!!

Every building in BPC negotiates it's landlease individually with BPCA when it's built. There are some that are better than others. Liberty House is the best one.

The landlord agreed to three provisions in the landlease with BPCA: (1) higher than normal payments, which get reflected in maintenance, (2) the flip tax, which goes to BPCA and not the building on top of being unusual, and (3) a bonus payment if the developer can sell out the building at a higher-than-specified $/ft2. Buyers have to be aware of the first two, which affect their economics. In the absence of serious price cuts, I wouldn't be surprised if this thing is significantly unsold when the building is completed (early next year?).

It still surprises me that they are having difficulty selling--5-7 years down the line when all the other developments abatements are up the difference in monthlies will not be sigificant. And many of the units are better priced than "comparable developments", basically taking that into account, as well as the flip tax. Perasonally I find the location to be optimal: I would prefer to walk 2 blocks to avail myself of the services that will be offered at 101 warren while living on the river rather than vice versa. Clearly many others feel differently but just my opinion. If there were not a better than 50% chance that I will leave nyc in the next year I would have bought there.The pricing is odd, as some have mentioned--some units I think are terrific value, some not at all.

I think even 5-7 yrs down the monthlies will still be significant compared to it's comparables. I estimate it's still at least .50/sqft higher than others - which in percentage terms would make it 20-25% higher.

#40 - Since you aren't purchasing at Riverhouse, you really won't have the problem that many of the owners will have - unless you are so rich that you just don't care. There is no question that the area is gorgeous! You are living in a park without crime in NYC!
The problem is, and most people don't understand this, that every building in BPC negotiates with BPCA individually for their lease and Riverhouse has one of the worst. If not THE worst of BPC. Good luck to everyone. I would say if you plan to live there for a couple of yrs it will be fine, but after that you will need alot of money to stay and will have trouble selling because of the high cc's and taxes.

#41 - Can you elaborate on the details of the lease that make it one of the worst? Is it the flip tax primarily or are there other clauses that will come up in later years to haunt owners?

#41 - Can you elaborate on the details of the lease that make it one of the worst? Is it the flip tax primarily or are there other clauses that will come up in later years to haunt owners?

Has anyone heard how this building has been selling or what the expected move-in dates are? I've been reading the Tribeca Space discussion board (what a nightmare). When does a condo board usually get set up in new developments? Is it usually based on the % of owned properties or some other criteria?

OK, this gets scarier every day. I have heard that in order to close you must put up 1 year maintenance and taxes. They say you get it back...but I hear that you only get it back when you sell? Could this be true? Yuck.

I was told by the broker that so far it sold 60%.

My husband and I looked at both Riverhouse and Visionaire and just signed with Visionaire. Riverhouse had less desirable amenities in our opinion, and we could snatch up a 3 bed with riverviews for $2M at Visionaire while avoiding a flip tax and a ridiculous requirement of a years worth of common charges and taxes!

a year worth of common charges upfront is required for both buildings as i understood... River house has better location i.e. close to Tribecca. And a 3 bed with the same size (1700 to 1800 sqft) is priced about the same. Agree on the flip tax.. Any other thoughts? I am looking at both... Thanks

I am looking to rent in this building -- if you are an owner/buyer and would like to rent a 1 or 2bdrm, pls write to me at beagle3141@att.net.

Tylernewyork, we signed with Visionaire and do not have to commit to a years common/tax upfront. I believe our contract indicates 3 or 6 mos. And yes, Riverhouse is further north (closer to Tribeca scene) but we were pleasantly surprised to discover how accessible subways and taxis are at the Visionaire.

booma: good you get a better deal i was told at visionaire that its one year... Visionaire is "greener" than river house which is a plus. do you know when you can move in? riverhouse seems to be soon closing.

ceo3141: none of the buildings have closed. so if you want to rent you have to wait for a while..

I also looked at both Riverhouse and Visionaire: very nice layouts, views, location, amenities. I liked Rockwell's design in the Riverhouse model but overall preferred what the Visionaire development had to offer. The carrying costs were too high in both buildings compared to other developments in the neighborhood.

Has anybody closed on their Riverhouse apt yet?

I live next door to the Riverhouse currently (Solaire) and looked at Riverhouse, 101 Warren, and Visionaire. Ended up choosing Riverhouse. The RH location was critical in that decision - from the Solaire, my wife and I go to Tribeca all the time for dinner, groceries, etc, and that will improve once the Whole Foods opens. The Visionaire ends up being a bit more of a walk, enough to make it a hassle for casual strolls, although I do agree its a nice looking building. Never got into a price comparison so can't comment there. Couldn't get past the West Side Highway noise at 101 Warren. Great building to go for services, but I don't want that noise/traffic, which I assume will get worse as the WTC rebuild continues.

With regards to the costs of RH, agree the maintenance is high, but the $/sq ft I felt was reasonable for some of the lines (I agree with the comment that you have to shop carefully, I liked the tower lines much more although you do pay for the view, but the windows are far superior) so all in all, it seems like a reasonable trade-off. On the $/sq ft, if you like the BPC parks (which we do), then I think they are a home run compared to the comps we looked at along the west side highway, at least $200-300/sq ft better than many that are right on WSH and far better (of course) than the really expensive Richard Maier area. On the other items, I hear the concern about the flip tax, up front security, landlease, but I am not sure one finds perfection in life and most of these are one-time either upfront or in many years when we might sell.

The apartments (the model unit and what you can see in the selling office, at least the old one) seem decent, kitchen a little weak and don't love the bathroom countertop coloring, but all in all thought they were good quality especially given the $/sq ft.

So we are waiting for the closings to start, I hear they are underway, but slowly. Would be curious as to people who have done walkthroughs, what they think about the actual finishes.

How trustworthy is this Sheldrake Organization? I know their head guy (Chris Daly) believes in green buildings etc., but does he have any record building high end housing? It seems like his experience is mainly in converting public housing to private ownership.

A warning about Riverhouse, make sure you read the OFFERING PLAN or have your attorney read it before you commit to a purchase. Just so you aren't shocked when your common charges go sky high in just a few years.

Given the current chaos in the financial markets, consequent layoffs, credit tightening etc--I would expect that any reasonable developer would start showing flexibility in price. Yet, my experience with Riverhouse is that they are absolutley unyielding and nonnegotible (except for those of their units that are real duds). Has anybody had a better experience? Were you able to negotiate any meaningful discounts to their high "asking" price (high on an "all-in" basis--ridiculous carrying charges). I would very much appreciate your thoughts.

Yes, I agree, they are clueless if they are not thinking about the broader economy. They did say they had 'some flexibility' on 1 or 2 apts I looked at, but I did not pursue. The building that really should think about lowering prices is the Visionaire, I was told that they are expecting to start closing in the fall, I can't imagine people are going to buy alot of apts in the coming months, plus there is overhang from Millennium Towers.

I would not buy now in any of these buildings that have common charges that jump. I think the people who buy initially are not really factoring that in -- either because they are flippers who expect to sell shortly, or just because they can't do arithmetic. I would wait a couple of yrs until the looming common charges are an issue, the apts will trade down then.

FYI, here is my tally of job losses on Wall St:
Bear Stearns: sounds like most of the professional staff that is not in Prime Brokerage will lose their jobs. So probably around 10k.
Citigroup: another round of layoffs this month. Their total could easily approach BS.
Lehman: laid off alot of highly-paid staff last wk.
Credit Suisse: laying off Inv. Bankers.
Merrill: who knows if more to come.
Goldman: says they are trimming bottom 5% as they always do, but they are probably using the current situation to thin ranks.

There are a number of posts on this list about the common charges being excessive. I am an owner-to-be, so I have a bias, but I also think the info on here should be accurate. There was an article in the NY Times end of Feb which says the average common charge in Manhattan for a doorman building is $1.37 but in most prime areas, it is $1.40 to 1.60 and can be as high as $3. According to the Riverhouse offering document, the common charge is about $0.50 WITH the sponsor subsidy (in fact, goes below that in year 2) and then rises by year 7 to $1.00 (when the sponsor discount is completely gone). I assume it will actually be higher, because the budget was set in 2005 and we know prices have gone up, but it doesn't seem common charges are out of line at all. I know the right analysis is the year 7 common charge but there is also value in having years 1-6 being subsidized.

The PILOT is the battery park version of real estate taxes. I would be interested in a comparison to PILOT rates vs traditional real estate tax rates but its not as if the PILOT is a completely new carrying charge.

On price flex, which was raised, we + 2 other couples we know who have bought places had almost no price flex. We tried to get concessions on closing costs etc but didn't get anywhere. My guess is that with 101 being sold out, the northern BPC options are limited (and Visionaire is, I think, also selling down rapidly its inventory).

On Sheldrake, I have spoken with the lead builder a few times. He knows his stuff, very passionate about the green thing (and they are hoping for platinum, which I think is what Visionaire is as well, so they will be equally green if both get it). I personally don't care about the green thing if it costs me money, although with utility prices on the rise, its actually not bad to have them spending on some of the energy efficiencies they are.

I still think on price/sq ft to get unobstructable river views, away from west side highway, and close to tribeca, this is a great building, notwithstanding some design flaws here and there (like the kitchen layout - knife storage behind the gas burners - kind of idiotic).

Lorenzo -- read the NYT article carefully -- the maintenance charges in the article incl the taxes! On the Corcoran site for Riverhouse, it lists taxes and maintenance, and they add up to at least $1.50 per sqft now. So if the maintenance goes up another $1, you are way above the average. I live in a W Vill Gold Coast Bing & Bing doorman bldg: the maintenance PLUS TAXES are $1.10/sqft.

On negotiating, I have looked at a couple of Millennium Tower apts that the flippers are trying to sell, which have been empty for close to a yr now. I ask the broker "What do you think if I throw in a bid 20% below the offer?" So far no one has said, "That is ridiculous!" They encourage me to show a bid. That means they hope they can go back to the owner with something and we will meet in the middle and trade at down 10%.

Riverhouse is in a great place and most of the apts have good space, which is why I am looking at it. But if you think it is a great investment, you are deluded. Housing is not an investment, it is a consumer item driven by impulse. The reason we are in this credit crisis is because everyone forgot that.

Lorenzo--Since I'm looking seriously at Riverhouse, I'd appreciate your understanding of the one year's worth of payments that are collected at Closing and placed into a Security Fund Deposit. Will owners receive interest on that money and is it ultimately returned to the owner when he/she sells? Or is it lost forever? Thanks

ceo3141 - you are absolutely right. I see that now in the article. So with the PILOT figured in, it looks like with no sponsor discount, the per sq ft will be around $2-2.40, and maybe adding a bit because the budget was set in 2005 and prices have gone up presumably, but giving credit for the energy efficiency of the building (which has been the largest run-up) lets say its $1/sq ft above Manhattan doorman averages, all-in. Annualized to $12/year/sq ft, or equivalent to $200 per sq ft of purchase price at a 6% mortgage (which could be lower of course for a conforming, although I am also taking tax efficiency out of equation). At $200/sq ft more than quoted prices, to capture this extra maintenance + PILOT, I would say the units are fairly priced but not a bargain (vs the list price being clearly a bargain for location and decent quality).

It just strikes me this is an absolute location decision. I am not convinced the units especially in the tower are better/worse than many along the WSH near the West Village (and I used to live in West Village so I get the attraction), but for family in NYC, I would take the trade-off of this building vs the WSH ones all day long because many of those prices approach $2,000/sq ft and the equivalent in this building is more like $1,400 ($1,600 if normalizing for charges). To be honest, a big part of my decision was a real estate bet made over a year ago on the development of the WTC area, which I like how it has played out so far (Whole Foods, 4 Seasons, W hotel, GS HQ, WTC tower redevelopment moving nicely, the pier redevelopment just north of battery park, potential expansion of local schools, only hiccup has been the JPM cancellation of downtown HQ).

Curious77, I have to say I spent a long time going through the offering doc, and there are a number of aspects that took a long time to get my mind around (and my lawyer wasn't that helpful, although I am not sure he tried that hard), so here is my take but please recognize my limitations. When we close, we pay to the Battery Park Authority (whatever the proper name is) basically a year of PILOT. Its hard to know what that number is because it is determined specifically when all units have a TCO, but it will end up being somewhere around 1% of purchase price (could be a bit higher). That then earns some treasury rate of interest. To the extent this amount exceeds the target of the PILOT each year - the offering doc is not entirely clear if its just the PILOT or some other small charges too - then that goes back to the Condo Board effectively, so you may indirectly get access to the interest in the sense that the Condo Board can lower maintenance fees (or at least not increase them) by the amount of the interest. It could go the other way, of needing to contribute more, but I don't see that as different broadly from a real estate tax increase. The security fund doesn't get liquidated until the Lease expires (if it does) in 2069, so your ability to recapture the security fund depends on how good the market is when you sell - you don't actually get the cash back from the security fund - I would definitely plan to ask for it, and a good market you get it, a bad one you don't I suppose.

Another point I have heard -- I do not have the docs -- the land lease goes up every year with the CPI -- so if there is inflation, your taxes go up alot, too! Makes $100 oil even more scarier. Lorenzo, you said that you looked at the docs, is this true?

Pretty much but its set for the first 25 years at 5%/year. The land lease is not actually that much, so in year 1 its $1,100,000 and year 2 is $1,155,000. So the increase is $55,000, or about $150 per apartment per year. I think we are actually in year 3 of the lease, so it is a rise of $62,000, or about $180 per apartment per year. The CPI escalation starts in 2030.

So to sum everything up, is this correct?
For a 1484sqft 2 bedrm apt (not a corner unit), sells for $1.175M, right now:
cc=$750 and taxes=$1585 (from Corcoran website)
In 5yrs, cc will rise at least $1 per sqft, and taxes will go up 5% per yr, or 27% over 5 yrs. Thus,
cc= approx. $2234 and taxes= approx $2022.
Thus, total costs go from $2,335 ---> $4,256.

Let’s say you wrote a check from your Tax-Exempt Bond Fund (a conservative investment) to pay for the apt (this is easier than going thru the mtge interest deduction b/c it is capped at $1M, and is essentially what an investor would do). You would forego about 3.3% a year in tax-free interest, or $4,812 per month.
Thus, right now, the minimum cost of the apt is 2335 + 4375 = $7,147/month
In 5 yrs, the cost would be at least $4256 + 4375 = $9,068/month.

The $7k number vs rents seems a little high now, but I doubt rents will get to $9k in a couple of yrs. I wonder how many people are prepared for this.

sorry, last few lines should be:

Thus, right now, the minimum cost of the apt is 2335 + 4812 = $7,147/month
In 5 yrs, the cost would be at least $4256 + 4812 = $9,068/month.

I hear what you're saying CEO, but what are you comparing a building like Riverhouse to? Yes, the monthlies may be a little higher, but this is generally offset by the lower pricing. If you want to live downtown in a luxury building, you are going to pay for it somewhere. Take 200 Chambers Street for example. Nice building, but maybe considered by some to be a slightly less desireable location because it sits right on the WSH. But it's a comparable type lux bldng.

Take a look at what the listings are at 200 Chambers. http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/building/200-chambers-street-manhattan

You can't touch a 2 bedroom of comparable size for less than $2M. And two bedroom rentals are priced in the 8-9K range, well higher than the 7K you seem to think is too high now. All things being equal, which they never are, I'd say the newer properties in BPC are very competive with what's out there.

bpcer: the 2 bedrm I pulled off was one of the cheaper ones. It is not a corner, and I would guess from it's relative price, it is not on a high floor and faces East or into the courtyard. It is spacious. Re Chambers St, 1) the apts are nicer, 2) some people put a premium on actually being in Tribeca, and 3) if you look at the inventory (both sales & rental), alot of it has been on the market for a long time -- it is not flying off the shelf at their asking prices.

Also keep in mind that StreetEasy cannot find out the final rent price that was bargained, as it can with sales data. I recently looked at apts in both 200 Chambers & Millennium Towers, and bargained the rent down abt 7.5% from what was asked. I would put Riverhouse somewhere btw Millennium and Chambers. If you actually try to rent in those bldgs, a 2 bedrm will cost you around $5250 in Millennium and below 8k in Chambers. The Visionaire is going to add more competition . . .

Also keep in mind that alot of people will be leaving the other bldgs in North Battery Park to move into Riverhouse, so that will put pressure on all rents. If a 2 bedrm at the Solaire is sub-5k (as it is now), it is tough to think that a 2bedrm at Riverhouse could be 9k. You can do alot of decorating for 48,000/yr -- and maybe buy a sportscar.

My point is that with the charges where they are now, the building is not bad, but when the cc goes up at least $1/sqft and your taxes go up 27%, it is a much-higher-than-average monthly charge that alot of people buying have not factored in. They are either flippers who try to get out, or naive Wall Streeters who think their income only goes up.

check it out -- here are people who actually want to rent their apt now & not let it sit on the shelf:

200 Chambers 2bdrm $7k: http://www.prudentialelliman.com/Listings.aspx?ListingID=965396&rentalperiod=&SearchType=apartments&Region=NYC

Millennium 2bdrm $4750
http://www.prudentialelliman.com/Listings.aspx?ListingID=959116

A couple of points on your analysis CEO, which is generally thoughtful.

First, the PILOT goes up 3% per year - the PILOT is separate from the land lease, which actually runs through the common charges - small point but it will add up given the PILOT is much larger than the land lease. Second, the common charges should double given that the sponsor is providing a 50% pay down in the first year, putting aside inflation. So the total monthly charge I think is more like $3,500. So the carrying charge in 5 years is more like $8,300 per month, or somewhere between $5.50-6/sq ft (to include some inflation on the upside). My rental in the Solaire is about $4.50/sq ft, and in 5 years, I wouldn't be surprised if it were also in the $5.50-6 range. Between the quality of the Solaire and the RH, its a bit of a push. Now its a little unfair because as you say you chose an undistinguished line (although the A line, which I think is what you are looking at, is actually not that bad, good configuration for a 2 BR with a private entrance for the MBR) and my current apartment has a view and is a nice Solaire line. So I would say on average, RH is slightly more costly per sq ft on a quality adjusted basis. And of course you are illiquid once you buy and there is the security fund and land lease issues in 2069 etc. But in my recollection, its not news that renting is a better short term bet than owning. For me, the chance to have ownership in North Battery Park made sense given the development in the area and the chance to take control of an apartment in the only waterfront condo in NBP.

So almost totally agree with your math, although would moderate it a bit, but I think the consideration of neighborhood still dominates the difference per sq ft vs. a rental.

Could you clarify the increases? One person said tazes will rise 5%, you said 3%. For example, for this apt listed on the corcoran site:
Price $1,675,000
Maint/CC $750
Taxes $1,585 (monthly)
What will be those amounts in 5yrs?
Thanks.

Okay, I went through the offering document in more detail. Its much more complex than I first thought. The Taxes ($1,585) you mention are the PILOT payments. There is a minimum PILOT which goes up 3% per year, but that actually doesn't matter because the minimum PILOT is irrelevant (and thus so is its escalation schedule). You don't pay the minimum PILOT (and the $1,585 is not the minimum PILOT anyway).

The bigger issue is not the PILOT going up annually, but that the $1,585 is not the true PILOT. The true PILOT for a $1,585 apartment (like 14A) is actually $2,039. The flip to the true PILOT from the 'teaser' PILOT happens once the building is completed and subject to full assessment, so sometime in 2008/2009 tax year I think. The $2,039 is just a guess from a real estate attorney the RH hired - it was done in April 2006 so is two years out of date - and appears to be based on a guess of what the building would have been assessed at in 2006/2007 (mostly based on comparable area buildings) multiplied by a residential class 2 tax rate of 12.396%. I am not sure what kind of risk there is in this number, whether it could be significantly off (ie, the fact that it was a 2006 assessment, whether property values have gone up between then and the time the assessment happens on the RH). Then what happens to the PILOT after the assessment, I guess its the same thing that happens in NYC generally to real estate tax assessments.

The maintenance goes up I suppose with inflation. The land-lease portion of maintenance goes up 5%/year, and it constitutes ~20% of the maintenance.

So in five years, the taxes will be $2,039 whatever NYC real estate taxes go up (no idea how that works), and maint will probably be up 3-4% a year.

Other than the PILOT jumping, and once it sets to the full PILOT, I am not sure the escalations are out of whack with the rest of NYC

PS - the true PILOT is laid out clearly in the offering documents - they don't try hide the ball - but the corcoran web site seems to be misleading. Unless I have this wrong. Has anyone who has asked the RH sales people heard anything different?

Ok, so for that apartment, in a few yrs:
-Taxes rise from $1,585 to at least $2,039, and
-Maint/CC rise from $750 to approx $1500? This I am saying because someone said the sponsor is subsidizing 50% for the first few yrs.
Thus total charges of the apt will be about $3500???
Thanks.

Seems that way. You should check with the RH people but that seems right. This is consistent with your post a bit back where you talk about total charges of $4,256 in 5 years, assuming 3-4% inflation, so your original point about comparing this carrying cost to a rental holds too. With that said, the apartment you are describing here is a reasonably nice apartment.

I know this is the Riverhouse thread, but I wondered if anyone had visited or had thoughts on 225 Rector (Rector Square). The CC/PILOT there is about $1.87, which seems to be a bit high and listing prices don't seem to be negotiable. The sales people are also misleading by telling prospective buyers that 40% of the units have sold when I just recently learned that only 19% have. Any thoughts on the building, the pricing, the developer?

I see Leonardo DiCaprio is buying into RH. I assume this is a good thing, not sure how much impact it actually has but at least helps RH with its marketing.

My wife and I nearly bought a unit at RH, but once our lawyer gave us a rundown of all of the expenses, upfront fees, charges, surcharges, costs, escrows, and cetera, we chose not to (plus the fact that the RE market nationally seemed to be topping scared us a bit). Too bad, it's a gorgeous building, and we loved the location and where our unit was going to be. Good layout too. I'm sure whoever ended up buying it is going to love living there, I just hope they're much more financially secure than we are.

By the way, they told us they expected to be ready in 4Q '07; any of the owners-to-be know what the most recent target date is?

Received the newest amendment recently, with all the floorplans for the building. Great reading - can see who has done what to each unit. Can also see some massive combined units. Also seems like closings are about to start shortly.

Lorenzo, can you tell how many units have been sold and how many are left? I have heard that some people are closing wk of 4/21.

Not really. There is a schedule of what apartments were sold when (to get to the minimum they need to declare the condo plan effective) but it ends in February. I have heard mid 60%, which would be 150ish units, which is consistent with this site's data. My apartment is listed accurately in this site's data as are the other people I know who have bought, so I assume the mid 60% range is right. What you have heard on closings is similar to what I have heard - they will be mostly done by August it seems.

You will need to be as rich as Leonardo DeCaprio to live in the Riverhouse in just a few years. Costs will multiply very quickly. Land lease for each new building in BPC is negotiated individually with Battery Park City Authority. Some negotiated better deals than others....Riverhouse is the worst. Good luck to all of you buying into this building.

Old news, been covered in a lot more detail than that earlier in the thread

Lorenzonyc, as you are also a prospective buyer- have you been given any finalized closing dates yet?

my understanding is that 30 day closing notices have gone out as of a week ago or so, with closings in late april and potential move ins possible by early may. they are doing a floor at a time and starting with the east (inside) wing, then moving west and then ending with the tower. we are looking at a july closing date for our place from what i hear. thats what i have been told, so i am not sure its actually true

I currently live in Tribeca and know a couple of local families who are purchasing in RH. I hear that there is a lawsuit against the developer for too much variances from the original design plans. I also hear that the delays keep getting worse on the project. Any confirmations on either of these points from ppl here?

If there is a lawsuit, let me know who to talk to - I have no complaints but would be interested in what others have. I can't imagine what the lawsuit is though, what variances are they talking about? I have seen the updated architect description from the project and the variances were trivial (ie, 2 elevators stop in basement instead of 1, bicycle room and tenant storage were flipped). There weren't any variances of substance that I saw, and not anything in the units themselves of note (ie, one of my closets got smaller to accomodate an extra heat pump, but I would rather have the right HVAC than an extra foot of a closet).

On delays, sure when I bought a year ago we were told November 2007 was hoped for but Jan/Feb 2008 was realistic. Now its more likely June/July and that feels 90% certain. So is 5 months a big delay? From what I read on other new developments, it seems actually pretty darn good and I give the builder a lot of credit for it (and in fact from a mortgage perspective has actually been a very good thing coincidentally).

PS - i don't know if streeteasy accomodates emails but I have posted on the RH board on wirednewyork. Tell your friends to PM me there and perhaps we start an owner-to-be dialogue.

I hear TCOs are starting to come in - floors 5, 6, 7 on eastern (inside) wing have TCOs from what I understand and closing notices including eastern floor 9 have gone out (although TCOs are still to come). I also hear that there are only a few units left (the inside and eastern ones). Does anyone have any more info / confirmation?

lorenzo- I'm just wondering where you're getting your info that there are only a few units left? According to this website there are 44 active listings. Also, I was told by Corcoran awhile ago that the units on the west side of the building were going to close first, then the east side.

I was wondering about the accuracy of the 44 count on here - even if so, on a building of 250 units, that would be over 80% sold which is pretty close to being done in my mind. A friend looking at the building said it was mainly the eastern units. I was told by a rep of the building they were starting on east side, but having just walked around the site, the west side lobby looks to be ready to go and east doesn't, as does the sidewalk on the west, so you are probably right there (and the building rep wrong, not the first time).

The TCO came in last Friday but still no word of closing date. Was supposed to be week of May 5 but still waiting for closing date.

Lorenzonyc--can you give me the location of the RH board on wirednewyork. tried to find it but no luck. i'm an owner to be

rusty- which unit are you talking about?

FYI -- I heard that there is a lawsuit because the floors were not properly installed -- the planks separated creating spaces, which they attempted to caulk.

6th floor

east side or west side?

in the tower- so I guess west side

Riverhouse got the TCO for floors 4,5,6 - their communications (or lack of) sucks. Call the Sales Office or the developer's attorney and ask for a closing date.

This is Sheldrake's first development in NYC - they need to learn to update the city Type A's periodically on the status.