Bring Back the 407 Park Avenue South thread

Agree with jasonkyle -- restore the thread.

"That thread was a fascinating case study in seller hubris and buyer frustration with the current market."

You are showing your hubris. You are so superior, aren't you?

Censorship is appropriate when the intent is to ridicule another. Does it make you feel better to kick someone when they're down?

Why not continue your conversation in a new post?

What a surprise, jasonkyle is at it again, so superior to everyone else. So easily annoyed by anyone who disagrees with him. Funny how he disapproves of censorship when it is about someone else and he enjoys the entertainment, but when the discussion is about him and his off-kilter views and personality, he's all for it. Go Jasonkyle!

@ dwell
If I was PAS, I'd sue you for defamation. Why did you use a real name?

I love when people think they know the law and bandy about big words and concepts they don't understand like defamation.

Sticky - the "douchebag" on that thread (and on this one) is you. I'll be the first to admit to flagging some of your posts b/c they were completely inappropriate. Have no idea why the entire thread got deleted. I'm sorry you're such an angry person. Few things leave me nearly speechless. You're one of them.

I am a lawyer & while defamation may not be the correct cause of action, I see an actionable tort. Using a poster's real name crosses the line.

dwell, the poor sot never hid his name. he let his address and apartment number be known. but i agree, there's absolutely no reason to pronounce it thus.

Google's cache still has pieces of the deleted discussion for now.

@ dwell
I am a lawyer & while defamation may not be the correct cause of action, I see an actionable tort. Using a poster's real name crosses the line.

You are a lawyer? Then show us. Don't throw out vague terms like "crosses the line." Tell us what line is crossed. Tell us what damages the person has? Tell us what information was released by the poster that was not already in the public domain that would make this "actionable tort" winnable?

Yes, a poor sot, perhaps. But the ensuing reactions were disproportionate to the offense. They just want to kick this guy when he's down. It's sick.

Butterfly:

Go play in google's cache. I owe you nothing.

The actionable tort stems from the fact that that was an incredibly, outstandingly, extraordinarily boring thread. You have no right to cause people gross boredom. All of you.

You owe me nothing, and conveniently enough, you have nothing to give me.

Oh alan,
you're the best!! The tops! The Louvre Museum!
I'm done feeding the trolls.

"I am a lawyer & while defamation may not be the correct cause of action, I see an actionable tort. Using a poster's real name crosses the line."

You call yourself a lawyer??? Actionable tort??? For posting somebody's name??????????? Get real, dude. The owner's name is part of the public record, easily retrieved on ACRIS. BTW, HE STARTED THE THREAD, DUMMY.

ADMINISTRATOR: the thread was actually quite INFORMATIVE. there was much information in the content of the thread -- as well in the TONE of posts and replies. for the record, there was a very minimal amount of name calling and anything to get offended about. people were simply stating facts, and it was the OP that took to knee-jerk reactions, interpreting things as personal attacks.

censorship sucks.

It is VERY lame to remove the thread--the conversation actually got MORE civil over the last 200 or so posts (and, frankly, it was never out of hand, anyway).

Basically, the last 100 posts were about the proper way to value the apartment in light of the above average maintenance. What exactly is objectionable about that???

Frankly, there are so few posts on StreetEasy that generate any kind of sustained interest (look at the number of threads with fewer than 10 comments), it's mind-boggling to me that you'd close a thread that was generating comments, and pulling people to the site. Seriously, Streeteasy, you're shooting yourself in your (metaphysical) foot.

Larry's name is public info on Acris and he identifies himself on his website as well.

ROFL @ actionable tort. There's nothing unlawful about posting someone's name and address online, provided you don't call for people to harm or kill the person, or damage their property.

I'd like to know what happened here. I'm all for preventing trouble but the only thing in danger on the 407PAS thread was the assumption that the apartment was appropriately priced given the maintenance.

The blog master has revised history to remove all traces of the thread. The thread does not exist. It never existed. Repeat after me. The thread never existed.

Why in the world did i click that link? While not on the level of say goatse or lemonparty, I'm certainly glad I didn't click that at work.

the antagonist trying to control the thread was 407PAS who insisted on trashing brokers and having the last word on the value of his apartment. I assume he complained to purge his obvious attacks against innocents trying to help him. I echo the comment that SE shouldn't be censoring a thread that actual generates page views and was mostly on point.

Sticky....STICKY....put down the rolling pin..PUT DOWN the rolling pin...YES...YES...Yes, you can finish your drink....These men just want to help you...That's right...They are nice people...No, they weren't sent by PAS407...yes, everyone likes the shoes....(to be continued)

this is classic. i love the outcry for bringing back the thread.

alanhart & dwell - yaaaawwwwn! you guys have read every post of that "boring" thread and all the bastard children it has spawned...not to mention contributing as well. get over yourselves or just changed the channel.

wow...that's some LAME CENSORSHIP!

Many message boards give the original poster the ability to delete a discussion thread. SE doesn't have that feature, but it does seem that the site extends thread starters the courtesy of deleting threads on request.

I have occasionally started multiple threads on the same topic by accident, and SE has been kind enough to delete the duplicates when I've asked. Different situation, of course, but the same policy might apply.

True, West81st.

The two different situations regarding this thread were:

1. It was not a thread about valuation of high-maintenance apartments until it was hijacked. It strayed radically from the subject line and original post.

2. Streeteasy doesn't offer FSBO listings, so for better or worse it should never have been posted in the first place, or should have been taken down in the first place. I wish FSBO were offered (for sale), but I hope the boards don't degenerate to craig-level spam dumps.

3. They should really bring rufus back as a moderator. These posters are amateurs.

For the record, the only "actionable tort" committed during this whole process was that 407PAS DID NOT PROVIDE COOKIES AT THE OPEN HOUSE. PERIOD.

I suggest that all those who were injured (either physically or mentally) by this egregious act immediately consult an attorney - you may even be able to recover treble damages for intentional infliction of emotional distress. GL.

On the plus side, the cookies that weren't provided weren't made on equipment that also processes peanuts.

Well, at least 407PAS came to his senses as that thread was damaging to his listing. Unfortunate for the website that it was deleted, though.

407PAS may have felt that this was only going to make selling his co-op more difficult if any buyer came across it, so he wanted it removed. He didn't come across too positively in the thread and there were a number of valid points raised as to why his apartment could be seen as overpriced. That kind of information wasn't going to help a guy who was already struggling to sell his place.

SE felt bad for the guy and threw him a bone. We can disagree with him, but we don't have to poke him with a stick while he's is dying on the ground.

Can someone post somewhere what is retrievable on google?

Everyone should just leave SE and move to apartmenttherapy.com where the debate is just as good and they do not feel the need to censor people...link to discussion is below

http://www.apartmenttherapy.com/ny/fsbo/fsbo-407-park-avenue-south-18b-063100

I'm in the market as a first time buyer in Manhattan and thought that the majority of the posts were very helpful, especially when comments about how to properly value an apartment were posted. Why should that be censored? To me, there was a lot more value to the posts once PAS407 left the thread.

This was an extremely informative post. Yes, there were some obnoxious comments and some behavior that may have crossed the line, but the healthy debate regarding pricing / maintenance etc. was good.

Most importantly, I think it served useful for buyers and sellers alike to get a better sense of the other side's perspective / psychology. BRING IT BACK!!

Cookies? After a contentious thread like this, I wouldn't touch a cookie (fresh made with Central Park dog poo !!!, ,,,"have one Sticky").

If PAS was using SE for free advertising, and it didn't work out as he had intended--simple--just ask SE to delete the thread. SE has lost a little of its reputation as a true public forum IMO. SE is more concerned about it's advertisers that want to sell inflated nyc real estate.

This building is toast. With rent for studios in Manhattan under $2k and 1 BRs for $2,500, these apts are worth $150-300k. In due time, you can score a studio in this building with under $50k down.

See replacement thread: http://tinyurl.com/cncrsr

Re: See replacement thread: http://tinyurl.com/cncrsr

LOL!

I bit my tongue on the new one (for the most part).

In that other thread, why didnt you ask about monthly charges, rental rates, McDonald's,cookies, not to mention personal appearance and voice pitch of the seller -- get the facts, please! Information = power.

I looked at apartment therapy link provided above.
Issue with the seller is he's emotionally connected. He painstakingly changed the ceilings from popcorn. Ok, well, most places today don't have popcorn. It is a bit like saying that a brownfield site has been cleaned up. Well, that is nice but now at best it is like other sites that never had a problem. But since Larry did the work himself, he appreciates it and wants his personal work to be rewarded, he wants personal recognition of how hard he has worked. Of course, it is irrelevant to the buyer what happened before, just what it is now. Larry is making classic sale by owner errors instead of being dispassionate. Personally, I've found that more often the rule than the exception, sale by owner properties are overpriced. They are trying to save the brokerage pennies and are similarly unwilling to price properly. My "rule" doesn't apply to people who sell by themselves with real real-estate experience.

bring it back

it should be brought back but SE could wipe out the OP's name and address.

Now, given that for the sale to close the # of posts must = sales price, I am not sure how to track all the threads.

GlandularProblem - You said "sale by owner properties are overpriced". Are you kidding us? If anything they should be priced better since owner is not paying brokerage. You know, a big contributor to the recent housing problem is the broker commission. with a 6% add on, every time an aprtment is sold, the housing prices have to go up, up and up by default as the seller adds it on to the selling price. 3-6% broker fee is the biggest scam in this country.

bansalpr, a broker can add 6% to the ask price but an owner can add 100% (hence the 50% price chops so often noted in the "price chopper" and "market movement with comps" threads). The brokerage industry has inflicted more than its fair share of woe upon the public but setting a price so high that the apartment languishes for months or years is ultimately the seller's decision. As 407PAS shows a broker is not required for an apartment to be priced away from the market.

Oh, gosh darn bull crap double do-do fuk-a-duk, here I go wading in, again, and I thought I was above this.

Bansalpr, whoever you are, are you hellbent on convincing people that you are indeed pas407?????

(Or if you live in the same building, is there something in the water?..creepy toxic mold?...radon gas?) No, I know its inadvertent on your part, that is to say it must be a compulsion to step into those ostensibly unoccupied shoes.

"If anything they should be priced better since owner is not paying brokerage." I mean, honestly, your argument, if it could be elevated to that level for the sake of discourse, is not the weightiest. Did you think other functioning human beings would overlook that point? There is such a thing as a compensating second order reaction that might, imagine that, cancel out such impact (ie, the owner raise the price by 6%).

I don't think GlandularProblem was kidding. He made a very insightful point. Look, if a seller is trying to be clever and save 6%,...uh...let's stop and think for a minute...who,,,exactly who..is he trying to benefit? Obviously, himself. But pricing is not an exact science (witness the dubious comps inflicted on mankind by a certain fsob person), so the very instinct that leads the owner to want to avoid the broker fee, indicates a desire to push all the limits, ie, the price to whatever is digestible within reason. But -- wait a minute -- people aren't total idiots, so the whole overreaching package can at some point recoil against the seller. I have little sympathy for brokers, but this is unfortunately not a true commodity product where the seller could point to EXACT comparables and say, see. you and I will split the savings from the unpaid broker fee.

" You know, a big contributor to the recent housing problem is the broker commission. with a 6% add on.." Oh yeah, GREAT POINT. People are frigging outraged that the 6% add-on everytime an apartment is flipped has caused this bubble. But, wait, I thought the bubble was like,,,uh...uh,,,uh....lemme see...orders of magnitude greater than that. "Big contributor" ? In normal discourse in english that phrrasing would imply that you think the brokerage commission by itself is a significant factor in the bubble.

For the sake of clarity, let nothing I ever utter be interpreted as pro-broker, but I think glandular problem made a good point.

I searched SE discussion for bansalpr:

THIS IS FROM 17 MONTHS AGO:

The thread starts with HIMWHOKNOWS stating the following:

One major financial bank will collapse, the dollar will continue to decline and real-estate is in the 1st inning of a long long downturn. New York is lucky that the Chinese can buy 75% of the city and wipe out the caucasian community. I live on the UES, and a large majority of townhomes have been sold to asian and arabian home-owners. The U.S. is on clearance, and foreigners will control Manhattan!

bansalpr wrote in the thread:

"NYC prices though ridiculously high are still cheap compared to other cosmopolitan cities globally. Since NYC real estate is heavilly influenced by global investors now, we havt o look at global per sqft prices to make any sense of nyc prices. Manhattan is still cheap compared to other cities around the word and simple flow of investor money will keep boosting the prices till it reaches par with london/HongKong."

KUDOS TO HIMWHOKNOWS !!!!!!!!!!

I do realize HIMWHOKNOWS didn't get the Peter Schiff riff right (so far), but....he at least spotted the real estate debacle unfolding.

To be fair, in a different thread, also about 17 months ago bansalpr wrote:

"i think buying should not make sense as an investment for lot of people in a stable/current home appreciation environment. Dont forget that the home ownership rates have gone up in last few years only because of easy credit and high home appreciation.( making it a prudent investment type asset). Buying home should be based on other factors such as quality of life, sense of pride etc.)."

Sense of pride? Hmm, I wonder what home improvements one might do, what appliances one might buy, that could contribute to that....

bansalpr, as if buyers' offers and sellers' asks were only 3-6% apart. That's pretty funny. So 407PAS, is offering his property at $489K, when a broker would have asked $518K? And now that the extra 6% has been removed the apt is ready to be picked up by a savvy buyer? Or maybe 407PAS realizes that whatever price he receives will be lower than he hoped and he is worried about paying a broker when he is losing money on his apartment relative to where he anticipated selling it 6 months ago (in finance this is called "marking your book in your head").

once again TO CLARIFY, i am not 407PAS. 3-6% Broker fee might seem small in one transaction but with and avergae house being flipped every 4 yrs, in a ten yr period brokerage can add 15% to the price. That's significant.

Just so everyone is clear what this thread is about: please feel free to discuss and comment on the following HYPOTHETICAL apartment:

SUN-FILLED HIGH FLOOR CORNER - 1 BEDROOM WITH BALCONY

Great location: the building sits on the NE corner of Park Ave South and 28th Street, on top of the #6 subway station. 15 min. walk to Union Square, Grand Central and Penn Station.

Close to many great restaurants (Les Halles, Dos Caminos, Blue Smoke, Mishima, the "Curry Hill" restaurants on Lexington Ave) and shopping: ethnic grocers Kalustyans and Todaro's, and the Union Square Greenmarket are walking distance.

THE APARTMENT:

‣The apartment is on the [HIGH] floor of a full service co-op building, with 24 hour doorman and a wonderful staff.

‣Spacious eat-in kitchen upgraded with quality stainless steel appliances: Liebherr 30” CS1601 counter-depth refrigerator, Jenn-Air Pro-Style range, and brand new LG dishwasher. Ample cabinet and storage space. Breakfast counter with aluminum stools.

‣Three large floor-to-ceiling closets, including a double (9 feet long) closet in the bedroom.

‣Large double-pane windows and balcony door replaced in 2006.

‣Eco-friendly cork flooring in living room and bedroom, stained to offer the look of stone but warm on your feet and easy on your legs.

‣Skim-coated ceiling and modern recessed moldings (as seen at MOMA) in living room and bedroom. George Nelson Bubble Pear sconce in living room.

‣ The South facing balcony is ideal for the urban gardener. It’s a great place to enjoy a meal al fresco or sunbathe. You can also watch next year’s 4th of July fireworks from the roof deck!

‣625 sq. ft (as per co-op offering plan) ***[but probably 575 sq ft based on floor plan and length x width]

‣Laundry and free storage in basement. Free bike storage also available.

FINANCIALS:

75% financing allowed. Maintenance $1,655 (NO INCREASE IN 2009!). The maintenance is approximately 65% tax deductible. This is much higher than most buildings and will lower your actual net monthly costs!
There is NO FLIP TAX. NO BROKERS PLEASE. Interested Buyers Only

Wonderful Light from South and East Exposures
Open City Views and Windows in Every Room

Now, Key Points to discuss:
- Do lack of popcorn ceiling and snobby fridge alone justify %489,000?
- Is maintenance of $2.88psf versus "normal" $1.50-$1.75 reason enough to jump off the balcony?
- Is it true there is not a single true comparable apartment within 15 miles?
- Why was sticky the only one at the open house?
- At what price, and in what year, will this place actually sell?

bansalpr, whether or not you are PAS, your statement is not true. It doesn't add to the price. It is skimmed off of the price. Your emotional attachment to your apt should be the biggest reason to use a broker. If you want to play the game (RE investing), you need to play by the rules. Name one sucessful RE investor didn't use brokers.

bansalpr, so an apartment is bought for $225K in '03 was offered at $539K in '09 FSBO (*cough* 407PAS *cough*) and you're telling me this is because of the broker? What broker? It seems that misusing data to make an invalid point is also something not limited to brokers. This is one FSBO that ain't cheaper than a broker offering.

to dwell. sorry i used the word hubris which i guess you deemed too big but the original poster of that thread displayed it is such an amazing way. he was ignoring suggestions, fighting with everyone, and seemed to equally distrust and dislike brokers and potential buyers. it was fascinating as i said. but i never actually participated in the thread and i certainly don't feel superior to him. i just think it's lame streeteasy took it down.
to ebutterfly. oh dear. as i said in the past, i didn't mind you implying you knew what my sexual position must be or any of the other crude and homophobic posts you made. i liked that you so clearly displayed the level you would sink to. unfortunately streeteasy didn't and they deleted 4 of your posts. i actually asked them to re-instate those as well but they wouldn't because they didn't want to "offend anyone". i don't stand for censorship in either case. i defend your right to be as ridiculous as you want to be.

what's with all the deleted comments?

Minor issue, and it's very un new york to say I suppose, but not everybody likes touches like the floating walls without molding; to me it looks to much like what you might see in commercial space,and seems a little strange for a home, but I'm not wild about sleek lines of steel and glass either..or fusion food...so maybe I'm hopeless.

Apparently I missed some homophobe attacks?...don't quite understand

Now I am confused..if you search that old thread is still there?....did they bring it back or what..and missing homophobe comments...this is all disorienting ....

Banslpr..thanks for clarifying that you are not also another poster. It just seemed strange because of similar location, point of view, and because, other than two posts you were on 17 months ago, your other other posting is on the same threads as another person, a happy overlap coincidence, but these things happen I suppose. I don't think there are any other posters with such overlap coincidence so no one else will be mistaken for another poster.

no the conversation between me an ebutterfly where her remarks went a little off the wall is from a totally different and best left dead thread but she brings it up anytime I post. she must have my streeteasy id on google alerts or something. it's a little compulsive.

Hey another listing at 407
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/416765-coop-407-park-avenue-south-kips-bay-new-york