what is a terrace worth?

1. it depends
2. a lot of people like to value it at 50% of the price per square foot that applies to the interior space ... a bit more for a spectacular view, a lot less for a crappy one (like directly onto truck traffic on 2nd Avenue approaching the Queensborough Bridge or Midtown Tunnel, for example)

has been a lot of discussion about this...conclusion is that there are many different kinds of terraces and therefore difficult if not impossible to generalize.

In todays market, not much.

"what is a terrace worth? "

the same thing that it's worth in the other threads you didn't bother to look for before starting a new one.

llv, rather than these wishy washy answers, the answer is $42.

30yrs_RE... Can you please direct me to the "other threads" to which you are referring. I am interested in the answer to this question.
Thanks

Half the sq/ft price for the space under the roof.

1/2 X (sq.ft $) X terrace size=the cost of a particular terrace.

What's it worth?
On a beautiful sunny day...priceless
As you accidently fall off...not so much

llv: from my own experience, a terrace with a view is indeed priceless. 6-7 months a year your apartment is a summer house in Manhattan.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/10566-outdoor-space

this one took 3.76 seconds to find. I'll let you spend 10 or 20 more to find some others.

Actually, look on curbed. They JUST linked to an article on this where they say a terrace is generally worth 50% the price psf ONLY if the terrace is at least 50% the size fo the interior space.

except that this increase in value immediately cuts the potential market for a particular unit to people who want outdoor space. kind of like a pool or tennis court. if you don't care about it, its worthless to you.

Not worth anything unless you really use it a lot.

llv, do you foresee yourself using the terrace? If not, I'd move on. It makes little sense to pay a price you feel is too high simply because others may find resale value in a terrace.

Trust me, there are people out there who will pay insane prices for a terrace. I'm one of them. :-) I fully admit I lose my senses when I see a place with an awesome terrace or backyard. Fortunately, my significant other keeps me in check every time I start hyperfocusing on the outside space and losing sight of the inside space.

We've seen a few listings in the $900k-1M range where it's a $500k apartment with a $3M yard or terrace. I know it makes no sense to buy an apartment like this, but I'm sure someone eventually will pay close to asking simply because the outdoor space is unique. I'll freely admit that I envy them, and that I wish I could sometimes turn off the logical side of my brain to do something like that.

I do not agree with the idea of: "a lot of people like to value it at 50% of the price per square foot that applies to the interior space"

Most LARGE terraces, patios, not all but most, are on ground or lower floors. Ground floor units or 2nd floor units have their negatives that work against it that offset some of the value the outdoor space provides. I know, I owned a 2nd floor JR4 with a 650 sft private terrace.

I sold for about $879/sft or so, cant recall exactly, so if I did that math for the formula of 50% interior space, my terrace would add about $286,000 to the value of my unit. That is not in line. Not even close.

Instead, I actually ADD a value to price per sft that a garden, or terrace on higher floor than ground, or balcony adds to the overall value. Depending on renovations, light, location, views, charm, etc..I would estimate about:

BALCONY - $20-$25/sft more
GROUND FLOOR LARGE PATIO - $60-$80/sft
LARGE TERRACE ON HIGHER FLOOR - %75-$120/sft or so

The range is to calculate in how nice it is, location, the views around (sometimes garden patios just have a nasty surrounding, sometimes its great), light, renovations, accessibility, etc..and that is more of an art to apply when you go for a visit and do an analysis.

So, lets take me. If my line JR4s were trading for $770/sft or so at the time, I would add about $100/sft to that for the value of my 650sft terrace. That would add about $100K or so, not the $286K that I get from the 50% of interior space formula

My $0.02

Great analysis, Noah. Personally I wouldn't pay anything extra for a balcony as they are more or less pointless, but it's great to know approximately what to figure for the two types of space I would be interested in.

Any thoughts on valuing roof decks? Assume exclusive access?

Why are balconies more or less pointless?

Because you can't really do anything with them, or on them. Many are so shallow they can't even accommodate a single chair, so their utility is just about zero.

Mine's a standard balcony, not the spitting-balcony size, and I can have four for dinner, or eight for drinks, in addition to my 7 heirloom tomato plants, 2 blueberry bushes, various herbs, mesclun lettuce, hydrangea, and tacky electric grill.

I'm considering getting a folding chaise longue so I can swap it out with my folding table and chairs and watch the sailboats, barges, kayaks, ferries, tugboats, etc. float by on the Hudson. Plus those jetskis that I can't actually hear or smell from roughly 25 stories above river level, but from Pavlovian conditioning get a brief impulse to join the National Rifle Association.

The only real downside is that it's too sunny in the early evening, but not this year.

alan, if you can have a dinner party on your balcony, yours is not a "standard" balcony by any means. It's more of a terrace-sized balcony. The "standard" size for a balcony is about as generously-sized as a typical fire escape.

"Standard" New York balcony: http://www.anitan.se/images/Lady_on_balcony.Lindabilder.New-York-200830.jpg

alan, no diss on your balcony, but what I consider a "standard" balcony barely fits two people at one of those wobbly cafe tables. I see them everywhere. Yours sounds delightful, but I doubt it is standard. I also see way too many balconies functioning as very expensive bike racks and nothing more.

Matt, that's a decorative balcony that was not meant to go on, except maybe to spit at passersby. Even when they have French doors, the doors were chosen to complete the aesthetic. evnyc, the bike rack / cleaning supplies thing is usually a function of tragically bad view, as in the case of all those postwars on major avenues in Yorkville.

My balcony is 6' x 13' -- a very typical size in Stalinist postwar buildings.

Maybe I'll invite you guys over for Lillet-n-sodas sometime.

Ooh, that would be fab. Can we do our next Streeteasy meetup chez-vous? ;)

Does anyone know the city regulations for grilling with charcoal on a balcony or terrace. I was told by a broker that the grill must be at least 10 feet from the building. Also I assume each building has their own rules.

I think it's roughly this for City code (and of course each building can further restrict it)

*charcoal -- not permitted on structures (i.e. rear garden okay)
*hard-plumbed gas -- a few feet (but less than 10) from any combustible surface. The 10 feet might be overhead clearance
*tacky electric grill -- no restrictions

evnyc -- I may be stupid but I'm not dumb. Have SE posters over to my apartment? You guys would rip it to shreds instantly ... verbally, metaphorically, but shreds nonetheless.

I was just kidding, Alan. You're probably right, although the posters who showed at the last meetup were all very well-behaved.

I can't believe I'm weighing in on this but, I would not consider an apartment w/o exterior space. I have always been lucky enough to score some outdoor space in this town in my life and I love it. Mind you I'm not tallking about a shelf terrace with a view to every neighbor or a tiny smoking terrace. Significant set backs are dreamy. We have a set back terrace facing interior very green court yard. everything is green, we hear the birds, our terrace is fully planted and is in full bloom. Sitting out there and reading the Sunday paper with my coffee, taking a puff or two after a long day, sitting with my kid looking through a telescope at the moon, it's great. I personally put a high value on it. I'm happy to read that most value it less. Noah's cost analysis seems too low if I understand him correctly. That being said, I defer to his better judgement. I do not like back yards because this is where the varmits live...hate varmits.

alan,
6X13 is a nice size....comrad

Not sure if this discussion is for sale or rent. I am a landlord and have a unit coming up in Aug / Sept.
Would appreciate if you would check this link out and share your comments with me. Thank you.

http://www.sublet.com/spider/supplydetails.asp?supplyid=1343686

varmit is what you get when you mix too many Lillet-n-sodas with too many scotch-n-grapefruit juices. You probably mean varmints.

evnyc, they were well-behaved until rufus showed up, and then the Chicago police [just kidding; they don't show up unless money's being handed out].

But in someone's home, it would be a 409PAS-style lynching. I'd soon hear that I could only sell for $28 psf [well, actually that's true because it's a M-L coop], that I should enclose the kitchen, paint the walls actual colors, etc. etc.

de11 -- that looks like a beautiful garden, and very nice apartment. The description needs a few changes: convert the inch-measurements to feet&inches; get rid of all the initial capital letters. Also, add more photos of the apartment if you can. BR & bathroom rather than outside hallway (if I understand that one correctly). Also, if you can take a photo of the LR in such a way that the garden can be seen through the window and door, much better. Good luck.

Agree with Alan, looks lovely. Is the bedroom upstairs or downstairs from the living room?

Alan, hilarious. Poor 409PAS.

had a ph with great wrapping terraces a few years ago---not of much val to me---too cold to use for most of the winter---and im gone for most weekends during the warmer months---weeknights in summer it's expensive to open up and battle to keep one's apt cool--so really didnt use mine too much--certainly not worth to me anywhere near what indoor space should be valued at--what's shocking ids that some people val outdoor space at same or close vals to indoor

evnyc, the apartment is a simplex. Bedroom is on the small side.

i had a terrace similar to alan's in Chelsea, but the neighbors in the townhouse behind us liked to enjoy their paper and coffee in the buff, next to their mosquito breeding pond, so i didn't take the family out there so often.

In the altogether?
Eeeeewww.

I did an analysis of the shares allocated to my terrace during a conflict with my Board. Ultimately, I found that outdoor space was allocated ~1/3 of the shares of indoor space. The view from my terrace is pretty good.

I have a balcony where I am renting now. I love love it. I have 13 tomato plants, cucumbers, flowers and beans - that is priceless to me in NYC. I don't know how I can live without it now. And we have a table and 3 chairs.

409PAS...missing in action for some time...wonder what happened to Harry? Did he sell his place?

AR,
Naked flee bitten porch monkeys?
That deserves the camcorder-zoom lens/youtube treatment followed by a strongly worded letter about the dangers of ultra violet light and neighbors with BB-guns.

where would you keep your horse without a balcony?

Pawn_Harvester, what was your conflict with the board about?

alanhart - we would not rip your apartment to shreds. we might never leave, but we wouldn't rip it to shreds, honestly.

alan - I am a little late to this, but one group of people who like the small balconies are smokers, because they can just step outside all year and don't have to smoke in their apartment.

I cant leave this terrace thing alone.

Here's a case in point: http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/385646-coop-50-east-89th-street-carnegie-hill-new-york We have here a 1500sq/ft apartment that under the watchful eyes of the SE weights and measures department comes in at a wopping 1375sq/ft with a terrace that measures 90 sq/ft. ask is $1,550.000.00 how do you think they priced this terrace?
Here's another:http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/394499-coop-200-east-74th-street-upper-east-side-new-york Here we have 1250sq/ft (seems about right) with a terrace that measures 230sq/ft. Average sq/ft price for this building is 748sq/ft. lets do the math...
1250 x 748 = 935,000.00 that leaves 315,000.00
315,000 divided by 230 = 1370 per sq/ft of terrace
That's a summer house!
Am I doing this worng???

This is the link for ths above http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/394499-coop-200-east-74th-street-upper-east-side-new-york

you doing it right. my earlier point is that for those who are indifferent to a terrace, this pricing is crazy. although these particular examples just seem crazy period.

falcogold1, how would you calculate the price on 1500sf set back roof terrace with views?

osiris,
send me the link.
1500sq/ft terrace is way big. Almost too big if there is such a thing. I almost think when they get that big it's almost always a seat of the pants calculation. If I had a 1500 sq/ft roof terrace with the rights to enclose all or part that might make a difference as compared with a wrap terrace that never gets wider that 4 feet with no abilty to enclose.

falco, I have a 1300sf wrap, and it's 11' at its narrowest. And I can enclose the south part. I really don't know what you're talking about with such aplomb.

Well beholder that sounds like a dream terrace.
One I wish on myself every time I go out looking.
Read more of the above thread to garner my meaning.

falco, yes it is a dream place, thank you. Peace.

Beholder....East 96th street???

forget that shit...

here's the listing that changes everything --- to hell with indifference about terraces...sell the children...4,400 square feet of terrace.
take a look:

http://www.corcoran.com/property/listing.aspx?Region=NYC&listingid=1497933

CC,
I don't know what to say except.............damn.........now I have to clean the key board!

i know what you mean. i have been able to see this place from our apartment for years....only heard about this listing very recently...obviously can't see inside but from the outside, it is unbelievable. as you know, i am pretty negative about nyc real estate; thank goodness, this one is beyond my means.

How funny... I just found this..

http://therealdeal.com/newyork/articles/outdoor-space-a-challenge-to-price

falco: "Beholder....East 96th street???"
No way. Big big no.