best Prewar bldg. in the Village? best Post-War?

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/building/47-university-place-new_york

I don't know enough pre-wars in the village to say that this is THE best one but it looks to be one of the better ones.

Don't know if the location qualifies for you but people love Stewart House, at 70 East 10th street for postwar - very large apartments for postwar building (1100 sq.ft. one bedrooms, 1500 sq.ft. 2 br's

Best post-war - Butterfield House @ 37 West 12th

About a year ago, kylewest gave some of the best descriptions of the Central Village:

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/4807-24-fifth-avenue

I found it very helpful. I seem to recall that there was one other post where Kyle goes through and lists A,B, and C buildings, but I couldn't find it.

I like the building at Astor place by the #6 train. I think it's a Gehry building.
I don't think I could live there because I just could not get in good enough shape to walk by the window at night.

thanks all - and SkinnyNsweet for the infomative discussion - interesting to see what people were thinking a year ago. Are you out there Kylewest to give us an update and further insights?

i think happyrenter also had some great insights. hr's back, so maybe he'll chime in as well.

I was also going to suggest searching old Kylewest posts. For my money, the most lovely pre-war is 43 Fifth.

40 Fifth Ave has LONG been recognized as the "best" prewar building in the Village by such a wide margin it's not even funny. 24 Fifth one of the worst, not best. As for post-war, I think you have to break it down further into more specific time periods to get meaningful answers.

Really, 30-Years, what is the skinny on my fav - 43 Fifth? The outside is so beautiful and the west facing views would be great. Is it just past its prime or poorly run? I don't know anything about the building, just like to walk by. Thanks!

Originally, it was 2 units per floor, the front one being pretty nice and the rear one sort of feh. But the VAST majority got cut up, and most of the resulting apartments are really nothing special at all. Also, service wise, it's rather ..... well, no one who has ever lived in a real "white glove' building would ever confuse it as being one.

i agree with you buster - butterfield house 37 w 12 - hands down.

Thanks, what a shame.

Best apt in pre-war, central GV area: 40 Fifth Ave. PH (the one listed 2 yrs ago by Janet Robilotti for $12MM). So few apts come onto the market at 40 Fifth that I'm not familiar with the layouts, but I'd venture to guess based on what I know that my favorites are 40 Fifth and 43 Fifth (gotta love the moat around the building!). The triangle between 30, 40 and 43 Fifth is my favorite stretch of 5th Ave. Jury out on Devonshire house--can't wait to see those layouts.

Post war, it depends on views in balance with price points, location, and overall building. The jr-four layouts in the post-wars are very appealing and more in line with the way we live today than most prewar 1-bdrm layouts.

I detest 2 Fifth--stuffy old lady feeling with very run down feel to the place. But those views on the south side of Wash Sq. Park from higher floors--wow. Given a decent layout and add outdoor space for some of those upper units and the apts can be killer. Wonder what that facade work is gonna cost though--the exterior looks in rough shape.

11 Fifth is nicer building than 2 Fifth and has some good views with decent layouts and upper floors with outdoor spaces--still an old lady feel to place though and the no dogs policy is annoying. Wonder what their facade work is going to cost, too.

There are almost invisible gems in the post-war category, though. For example, across University from 11 Fifth is the non-descript Lafayette at 30 E 9 that you may never have really noticed. 6 stories, red brick. But inside, the building is fairly immaculate, it has impeccable financials, and the layouts are great compared to what's around the area. And apts can be a steal. For example, the Brevoort EAst and Lafayette have nearly identical jr-four layouts in some lines. By crossing University from 11 Fifth and buying the apt in the Lafayette, you can save $200,000-$300,000 dollars.

If you have a family and need more space for less money, white brick buildings on broadway will get you into the 'hood, but it is hard to say they are the "best" in any category--kinda depressing in many ways, I think. But I'd rather live in one of them and be in this area than a nicer building in a neighborhood I liked less.

All a personal choice in the end. But if $$$ was no concern, I'd be knocking on the door of that larger of the two penthouses at 40 Fifth and offering them anything they wanted for the place with its double terraces, conservatory, sprawling layout, to-die-for views all in a building that whispers "classy" with every step you take through its marbled halls.

Hey, if you aren't buying and want to rent here, 20 FIfth wins. Great location, sexy apts with step-down livingrooms, nice 5th Ave views from many units, lots of closets, generously proportioned spaces. Staff is solid and fantastic. Management (Sol Goldman Investments) is miserable to deal with, but you'll only have to do that twice--when applying and when leaving--so it is tolerable. And no fee rentals! Just walk up to doorman and ask what's available! Highly recommended.

wow and thank you - you really know the'hood'kylewest. Buster2056 and avery love Butterfield - thoughts? Or the white brick bldgs. on 12th? How does Brevoort East compare to the neighboring Brevoort? As for prewars, what do you think of 51 Fifth?

A lil off topic but Kylewest - any restaurant recommendations in the 'hood? How about you, 30 years? Need not be the most expensive (ie: we all know Cru) but what about your neighborhood favs? Thanks!

restaurants in the village? there are hundreds of great restaurants it is very hard. are we talking the whole village, east to west?

babbo, alta, piadina, aki, little owl, momofuku, spotted pig, tartine (for brunch, early) will get you started.

buildings, it depends a bit on what you like. 40 5th is the fanciest downtown prewar, and it has a wonderful location between those two churches. but it has something of an old-ladyish feel too, though a different old lady from 2 5th or the Brevoort. Sort of Park Avenue in the Village. Personally, I'd rather a South-facing apartment in 1 5th overlooking the park, or maybe an apartment in Eleanor Roosevelt's old building on Washington Square Park West.

Let's also not forget the two Bing and Bing buildings on Abingdon Square. They have a lot of small apartments, which is a negative, but for my money the large penthouse in 299 West 12th would be my utterly ideal apartment.

For post-wars, again, taste is an issue, but it's hard to argue with Butterfield House as the top village post-war. it is an architectural landmark (which certainly can't be said for the white brickers, 2 5th, 11 5th, etc.), the ceiling heights are a little better than average, terraces, the garden, and a nice community. For a different type of buyer I guess the two Richard Meier towers over on West Street have a lot of appeal, but not for me.

Re: Brevoort vs Brevoort East: Both have lobbies that are painfully dated and make it feel like you are going to visit great aunt Tillie as you enter. If you wait in a lobby for 15 minutes, you'll surely get to see an older blue haired woman with a walker and fur hat shouting something at a kid running by with a bicycle since such inter-generational scoldings happen regularly. Neither makes you feel particularly classy or as if you've entered anything approaching a rarified environment as you may sense upon entering a lobby such as 30 Fifth. Views from each of these buildings are essentially comparable and highly dependent upon the particular unit you are looking at. The buildings were built within a few years of each other and have aged about the same and have been equally well maintained.

One big difference is the maintenance at 11 Fifth is much less than the maintenance at 20 East 9. A jr. four at the Brevoort may run you $1100 monthly whereas the comparable unit at 20 East 9th will run about $1400.

The other difference I noted was that 11 Fifth has an unusual no dogs policy that is enforced. Actually, it is technically a no pets policy but waivers are granted for tiny things that stay in your apartment and won't be a nuisance (a cat is probably ok, a spider farm is not.

Personally, I think it is a toss-up and matter of which floor, view and layout the unit you are looking at has. They are both quite demanding in terms of financials required of buyers, as are virtually all buildings in this enclave north of Wash. Sq.Park.

51 Fifth is a very nice building but imho just shy of the cache of 30 Fifth, 40 Fifth, or 43 Fifth. Some layouts are awkward, some quite nice. Units there are taking FOREVER to sell. My guess is that owners put a lot into reno and cannot currently recover those costs if they lower prices.

FWIW: 53 FIfth It has some nice classic 6's but everyone I've seen required A LOT of renovation before I'd consider moving in. The building itself is just that little bit less nice than 30, 40, 43, 51. Others have disagreed thinking the units were in better shape than I did, but what I've seen there cried out for moderate reconfiguration, 100% guts to bathrooms and kitchens, some not-so-charming worn floors. My estimate was for the classic 6's I saw was $500,000 in reno for highend job using architect and reasonable contractor. If you wanted to get away with as little as possible, maybe $250,000 if you scrimped on everything which makes no sense to me if you are buying such a unit. Who puts cheap tile, doesn't skim coat, uses discount appliances and no new wiring or lighting in a $2.5-3MM+ purchase?

1 Fifth: I failed to mention this building before. The oversight was because so little becomes available here that is decent and because the prices are stratospheric. The building has commanding views and looks and feels like it has been there forever and is a grand dowager anchoring Fifth Ave at the park. Maintenance is crushing and smaller units are, well, smaller. Nearly all one bedrooms have seriously compromised layouts that are cramped (albeit with high ceilings). Larger units are almost never available and when they are cannot be afforded by anyone in my world. There are some units with roof rights and incredible looking conservatories and breathtaking views toward the top that I'd give anything to see from the inside, but alas, I've received no invitations yet. The building exudes privacy, lack of ostentatiousness, money--REAL money, and exclusivity. Judging by the relatively few lights on in the building every evening, I surmise many of the owners are gone most of the time. Because of the very very high prices, top of the category maintenance fees, strictest of financing requirements, smaller 1-bdrm units with so-so layouts, units here tend to sit on the market for exceedingly long times--even in 2007.

If money were no matter, you can tell from my posts which pre-wars I like. If money matters and you just want more than anything to live in this area which many consider to be among the very finest in NYC, I'd consider a post-war like those on East 9th St (stick as close to University and Fifth as you can) so long as the views/light/layouts were good and with the money saved do a killer renovation.

Apparently an abundance of tired lobbies for old ladies. What are the best lobbies in the Village? Mod renovation over at the Stewart House?

While we're getting a run down on the whole lower 5th strip - what are your thoughts on 33 & 41 5th? Actually some units available in 41 5th right now.

I like http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/building/50-east-10-street-new_york. Almost bought one of the south-facing 1/1.5s.

i used to live on that block. gorgeous.

101 W 12th always struck me as a good buy. Nothing super-special about the building, granted, but you can get a clean sunny doorman apartment in a fantastic location for not too much money. Dollar for dollar I'd put that up against the Brevoorts (not knocking them, but I'd choose the Adams.)

I also think 29-45 East 9th is an overlooked pre-war. Went in there once at an open house, and many of the apartments have super-high ceilings. Rare in a pre-war. Plus you get a 9th and University location.

so many great candidates - STREETEASY could you consider organizing a section where people can vote for their favorite building (by neighborhood)? to live in, to admire as a passer-by, whatever? It could be kind of interesting...

and to promote transparency -- maybe a way to vote or keep track of applications/rejections from tough coop boards?

I lived in 101 west 12th (John Adams) from 1999 to 2001. I have a fondness for that old white brick and the generous size of its rooms. The south-facing views, however, used to be Jefferson Library down to the Trade Center ... it makes me sad to imagine what it's like looking out that window now.

Historically, the building has flipped back and forth on dogs, depending on who's on the board and who's been bitten recently.

ali r.
{downtown broker}

How could I have overlooked 29-45 E 9th Streets? Awesome. Very unique internal architecture of units. Many with huge vaulted and coffered ceilings, step down livingrooms, fireplaces. Prices are high. Maintenance is at the upper end of this already expensive area. A one bedroom's maintenance can be $2000. Expenses are high in part because of the way it is several combined buildings. There are 3 doormen on duty at any given hour, for example. Lobbies are stunning. Buildings are stately and serene. Just wonderful

50 East 10th Street: handsome building. Great pre-war. Some layouts are very dated, though. Some one bedrooms, for example (J line I think) have large useless entry area which is good for aesthetics but not utility, no real dining area, 1/2 bath in kitchen (which may or may not appeal to you) and other bath in bedroom. So guests either poop in your kitchen or trapse through your bedroom during dinner parties held in your livingroom. Too many compromises for me. Even with updating, I feel this line just feels very "old" in a not such good way. Other lines appear better from plans I've seen.

Kylewest, agree re: the 50E10 layouts. Sort of grand but awkward. The J/L/etc. all seem to have tried to reconfigure that chunk of baths and closets between kitchen and BR to get around it, but really no go. The one we saw was an L, with the foyer not quite big enough to eat in, though they'd closed off the service door and made the kitchen big enough. Killer was the BR opening right off the LR. Great for one person but not two, or at least not us two.

How buildings in the EAST village?

NWT: exactly! Now, how do we get invites to check out some 40 Fifth and 1 Fifth upper floor apartment lines?

I'd settle for an A at 40 Fifth, the ones with the sunrooms overlooking the church. Once had a friend in a one-bedroom on the 10th St. side many years ago, but was young and stupid and paid no attention. Ditto a mid-floor in One Fifth. But then it's hard to do a thorough inspection anyway....

Kyle and Happyrenter,

Thanks for the overview of the neighborhood. Very helpful esp interested in Brevoort, Breevort East and 2 Fifth simply because I can't afford the classic prewars and I like the larger rooms. How about The Stewart House. I know it's huge, white brick, and old lady but I like the large rooms, views and low cost and low maintenance,

I believe Stewart House always trades at a slight discount due to high reserve requirement (40% ish) but it is lovely apartments and great garden. Beth Chase seems to dominate that building, I would google her web site.

nycdreamer,

i don't like stewart house. among other things the huge driveway-style entrance really bothers me--it seems like a suburban nursing home. the building is huge--sort of monstrous--and an eyesore. i think you'd do better in one of the small, low-key post-wars kyle mentioned (he knows post-war a lot better than i do; other than butterfield house i'm not a great admirer of any village postwar). a small post-war near university place seems far preferable to the stewart house and could probably be cheaper as well.

I don't live in the Stewart House but I actually think a driveway is a plus for those with cars, kids, etc to unload. Otherwise, I agree that it is an eyesoar.

Loading/unloading at any post-war on E 9th is easy since parking for a few minutes is never really an issue--plenty of space if someone is with the car. Even then, there's usually metered parking. I'd take a post-war in ANY E9thSt post-war over Stewart House. 40 E 9 for example is not pretty, but compared to Stewart House, the views from 40 E 9 are better, the street is prettier, you are closer to the prime blocks between Broadway and 6th, the layouts are comparable. Personally I know people in Stewart House who are there because they like the area and have no choice due to finances and need to house family with 2 kids. They are there by default--not choice. They just couldn't afford anything else. The monolith has something like 10,000 units (okay--I exaggerate) and I get depressed just looking at it as I walk by. I just don't think I could deal with walking into that everyday. In additionto 40 E 9, there is 55 E 9, and as I've already said 30 E 9 (which I think is far and away the best post-war on the block). The Randall House is there, too, by Broadway, but because they allow parents to buy for students, I see that as a huge negative.

If you are looking to buy in this neighborhood, prices are falling and there's no way you'll be worse off for waiting and watching a little while. While you may not see 40% drops, the drop you do see may be enough to do most or all of a renovation. I'd really focus on estate condition properties--and there are a lot over the course of a year! Rent control tenants in these buildings are mostly in their late 70s, 80s and even 90s. Most of their apts haven't been touched in decades. And shareholders who purchased when the buildings were converted are of similar ages in these buildings. By being patient and purchasing on of these units with a layout you like, you can make it 100% your own and still come in under what comparable units sold for at peak. And as I said before, by being selective about which post-war, you can save $100,000s of dollars.

Thank you all...... Extremely informative and insightful. I'll take your collective advice and investigate your suggestions.

"(ie: we all know Cru)"

Bet you don't ;).

The problem with 30 E 9th (and it's counterpart 60 E 9th, with 40 in between) is that just about everything is on a "low floor" and not only noisy, but above various commercial spaces which have had issues with noise, odor, fires, etc. in the past.

I'd say it is more like 1/3 of units are in the situation you describe 30 yrs. @ 30 E 9, for example, which is 6 stories, has the 9th street side with no retail and traffic is very quiet. On Univ. (almost no traffic) and 8th St, above the 2nd or 3rd floors retail matters little and noise is not significant in this area. 40 East 9th is even taller, as is 55 E 9th. 60 E 9th is a very different building with fairly small apartments and on Broadway which really presses the boundries of the desirable central village nugget above Wash Sq Pk.

And these issues hardly distinguish these buildings. The Brevoort and Brevoort East have the same level of retail. For that matter, many of the prewars have the same issues. 24 Fifth has a restaurant (Cru). Devonshire has tons of retail. Many of the 10th Street prewars have retail, and many prewars along University have restaurants and retail.

I don't think being on the second floor is ever especially desirable in any building, but if you are, I don't see how the experience of being on the second floor is any different at 40 East 9th than at 30 Fifth Ave. Having lived on the 5th and 7th floors of prewars on lower Fifth (prime buildings by any standards), I can attest to the fact that traffic just wasn't an issue in terms of noise. I don't think you have to be high up to escape noise. It depends what is outside the windows. Surely 8th Street traffic is not a lot different than 5th Ave between the park and 9th streets where a million city and tourist busses stream everyday. I guess I'm saying that I think the issues you mention are worth considering but based on first hand experience they aren't really all that significant. Caveat: I don't vouch for 2nd floors--I'm with you on that.

"Kylewest, agree re: the 50E10 layouts. Sort of grand but awkward."

I think if you look at the original layouts and use as the architect intended, they aren't so: There were one bedrooms and one bedrooms with formal dining rooms: no 2 BR's. So a lot of what you see now as 2 BR's may seem awkward because they really aren't really 2 BR's

"9th street side with no retail and traffic is very quiet"

It is not only a bus route, but has approximately 3 to 4 times the traffic of 10th, 11th, or 12th Streets (this comes from a report done by the city a few years back when they were looking to change parking regulations on 9th between Broadway and 6th Ave).

"On Univ. (almost no traffic)"

I don't even know how to respond to that. It's busy enough that it was until somewhat recently a 2 way street.

"and 8th St, above the 2nd or 3rd floors retail matters little and noise is not significant in this area. "

8th Street is ENORMOUSLY busy, and just about every apartment facing it has a significant amount of noise. the retail on 8th Street is VERY heavily food weighted. I know people who lived in 40 East 9th who faced South and even with the setback (which 30 does not have), had "noise issues as high as the 8th floor, which is two floor higher than the top floor of 30.

I think you're also forgetting Knickerbocker Bar and Grill on the corner of University and 9th (and issues the units have had with it; it's a Steak house with a grill) as well as the former BBQ on the corner of University and 8th.

but even aside from that : 1/3 of the units in a building have issues? that doesn't seem like a very high number to you?

"Broadway which really presses the boundries of the desirable central village nugget above Wash Sq Pk. "

Well we have more than one person mentioning Stewart house, which is on THE OTHER SIDE of Broadway, so I'm not sure what people are considering the boundaries to be, but you certainly can't call 60 east 9th "too far East" and consider Stewart house, which is East of it, as "not too far East". I also think it's a bit "funny" to talk about 40 East 9th like it's not too far East and 60 as if it is, when they are on the same physical block next door to each other.

"The Brevoort and Brevoort East have the same level of retail."

Not at all. As compared to the square footage of retail space vs residential space there is no comparison whatsoever. In 30 East 9th you've got 5 floors above the retail in the other 2 more like 20.

"I don't see how the experience of being on the second floor is any different at 40 East 9th than at 30 Fifth Ave."

You can't really think that facing 8th Street 9the back of 40 East 9th) and 9th or Fifth ave are equal, can you?

"Surely 8th Street traffic is not a lot different than 5th Ave between the park and 9th streets where a million city and tourist busses stream everyday"

You might want to actually check the traffic patterns and see that this is not the case in any way, shape or form. Frankly, I'm, astonished that anyone would think 8th Street was the equivalent of anything less than a commercial avenue.

30yrs, I do like 50E10 as a building, and its living rooms especially. I really wanted to want the J I saw, but the f'ing stereo always blasting in our living room made the four similar one-bedroom lines there not work for us. When I whine here about regretting not getting a one-bedroom in your neighborhood instead of a two-bedroom up here, it's that building I'm thinking of. I've got the original plan of only the first floor (when there were two lobbies) so don't know the layouts of all those lines in the middle front.

My LR is close to identical in size to the 40-50 e 10th J line. You definitely hit on one of the big pluses of that building: even for 2 BR apts in the Village (for prewar) the LR's in that building and 39 5th are just about the only one's with that scale. You also hit on the negative: I always hear people complain about "wasted space" and i think "it's the 'wasted space' which makes great apartments". In this case, there being no "wasted space" (i.e. hallway/etc.) between the LR and BR is a major negative. But if you like the J line in 40 - 50, you should really look at the 1 BR's in 39 5th, 3C sponsor wreck "only" $925,000.

I confused the J and L. It was 9L, facing south with that triple set of steel casements, though J has same layout but facing north. It's funny how much I remember about that apartment, 18 years later. Very true about the real luxury being the waste space, even when some is skimped elsewhere.

I have friends that live in a duplex on 9th (5th & 6th ave), the noise from the bus is brutal. 9th Street gets especially hard hit with traffic as it is continuous all the way from avenue A to 6th avenue.

I have to disagree about 9th St. traffic above the first couple floors. First, you must have decent windows in any building if you don't live in a tower. Second, having lived on the 7th floor directly over 9th St. (also facing 5th Ave), I must say the flapping NYU dorm flag on windy days was far louder than the traffic which was a non-factor. Maybe it is different in a townhouse than apt building.

30yrs: I think you misconstrued a ton of what I said above. I compared the Brevoort and Brevoort East to one another in terms of retail--not to any other buildings. 8th St. may be busy during day, but since I haven't a trust fund and actually work like most people, I think weekend and evening traffic matters more, and 8th just isn't that different than any other street. Most evenings if I cross 8th st. I don't have to even look at the light because there isn't much traffic after business hours. Same on University up to 10th St. Regardless of what traffic used to be, from the park up to 10th st. University place is nearly empty in a.m.'s, p.m.'s and weekends. Re: restaurants, it is a fact of life in NYC that many fine buildings have food retail (see 1 Fifth, e.g.). Ideally I'd live on the 17th Floor of 40 Fifth, but since I can't, nor can most, you have to make compromises. so long as ventilation is up to snuff and board minutes reflect no issues, I think it is one of those things you just accept if not directly impacting you (e.g., wouldn't live above a vent or on second floor over a restaurant like Otto, etc).

I also think you miss my point re: the "micro-climates" of the area. I think mid-block between Univ and B'way on 10th St is a very different experience than the corner of B'way and 10th. Same for the difference between 30 E9 and 60 E9. Placement on a block matters a lot. Certainly 12 St b/w 6th and 5th Aves is lovely. But 12th St. between 5th Ave and University is fairly disgusting. Micro climes matter a lot. That was my point. No need to jump all over me for pointing that out. I'd think you would actually agree.

I think it also bears pointing out that lower floors in any building can be a disaster if they are in the wrong place. Nice as a 5th Ave prewar can be, if you are over the garbage pick up area on the second floor, or face the dark back side and look into another prewar across a service alley, you might be a lot happier on the 5th floor of a post-war facing pretty townhouses. It's all about totality of the circumstances of a given unit. Overall, the point I think is that this pocket of GV from Park to 12th St. and 6th Ave to Broadway is an outstanding place to live compared to most any other in the city.

39 Fifth #3C pointed out by 30yrs is definitely intriguing. It's low, but nice views if it faces front. Price is right. For me drawback is that the prewar layout lacks a specific dining area in this one-bedroom unit. I have dinner parties often and in 3C I've no idea where you put a table so you don't block doorways and still have room for desks (his & hers -- or his & his, or hers & hers, as the case may be) and ample seating in living room. Suddenly the livingroom becomes dining area, work area, tv/sitting area. If you prefer to keep tv and desk out of sleep space, the ample living room is challenged in terms of visually and functionally designating various areas for different functions in the one room. It is a compromise over a jr-four layout with ample dining near windows and work area closer to entry before entering the entertaining/seating area. Still, 3C's huge livingroom, fireplace, graciousness of building overall, location, views of churches (if it faces front) are pretty enticing. And maintenance is not off the chart as it is in a few of the prewars (29-45 E 9th, e.g.).

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/316072-coop-33-fifth-avenue-greenwich-village-new-york
This one is kind of interesting, too. $300k price drop. 2 bedrms, 1-1/2 baths. $995,000 ask. Annoying manned elevator as I recall--must ring and wait everytime you want to go or come. May appeal to some. Not very practical for most. But price is beginning to make this very attractive.

A little tidbit from 2 Fifth: http://www.twofifth.com/thirty-seventh_ammend.htm

Love these little bloopers in website administration....

"I think it also bears pointing out that lower floors in any building can be a disaster if they are in the wrong place."

And I think it bears pointing out that what started this conversation was the fact that 30 E 9th only has low floors. As to the rest of it, we're never going to agree so further conversation is pretty pointless. I can only tell you one thing for certain: the market strongly disagrees with your perceptions. And my perceptions come not just from selling in all of the buildings mentioned for over 20 years, but living on 9th St and garaging my car on 8th Street for the last 15 years.

sorry, I can't help myself. From another thread describing the noise at Devonshire house:

"Gopher_1
about 8 hours ago
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two types of noise issue: 1 - delivery trucks for the shops on 8th (surprisingly noisey even on a high floor) 2 - drunk students coming home late at night to the nyu dorms in the vicinity. 2 was the worst as it is never regular enough to become white noise. all in all though if you got sound dampening blinds, i'm sure it wouldn't be an issue
one other plus point about the building is that the staff are fantastic."

30 yrs: you're so vehement--maybe it is just the typing coming across different than you mean to sound. I have and do live on 9th St and until recently parked on 8th (we probably used the same garage). I also lived on 5th/10thSt. So I'm not uninformed on these subjects. In terms of "the market", I know very well what it is. I know values in post-wars are lower for good reasons compared to most prewars. I'm not debating you on that despite what you think. But I do think lumping second floors in with 4,5 and 6 floors of buildings on relatively narrow sidestreets isn't fair. We're not talking 23rd Street here. or 14th. Relatively these really are quieter streets down here to start with. My points are more geared toward (1) prewars aren't the end all and be all insofar as they also involve compromises in layouts, views,and indeed they too have lower floors which nonetheless have quite desirable units all things considered, and (2) post-wars offer value to those who can't afford the prewars but want to be in the area and many of the post-wars are have quite nice apartments by the standards of the rest of the city. I don't see why those points are so controversial for you.

Does anyone have thoughts on 41 Fifth Ave? I'm not familiar with the building.

Does anyone have thoughts on 41 Fifth Ave? I'm not familiar with the building.

30: the market strongly disagrees with your perceptions.

Don't follow you at all.

When I was looking a post-war in the Village (say on 9th st) was about the same per sq. ft. as a pre-war on the UWS. If you mean that a pre-war doorman in the Village goes for even more, well duh. They are quite rare, and you get both a superior location and a superior apartment. But the market says that post-war Village costs the same as pre-war UWS (which is also a very nice part of the city), implying that the market says the location is superior.

I don't know how you would come up with that as what I was saying. I'm not going to repeat myself any more on this subject, it's obvious what I meant by reading what I posted.

30 yrs, I don't think you were clear at all. I have no idea what your points were leading to. Like happyowner, I think it is pretty obvious the prewars sell for more for a reason and I haven't a clue as to what perceptions of mine you think the market disagrees with. If happyowner (not a neophyte poster here) and I don't get what you are saying, perhaps, just perhaps you didn't say it as clearly as you thought.

30: The market values a middling post-war doorman (not horrible, but nothing special) at, say 30 or 40 E. 9th, at about the same per foot as a charming pre-war doorman on WEA in the 80s. You can get a pre-war 2/2 with light on WEA for about the same price post-war on 9th. The buildings are clearly more charming on WEA, the location is better on 9th (all issues factored in).

Which you want - GV location or charming pre-war - is clearly a personal preference. If one had endless money one could go for a pre-war on 9th street (or lower 5th), or even buy a whole townhouse. But since a less charming apartment goes for the same price, the GV location must be declared by the market to be superior.

Where did I talk about the values of prewar vs postwar at all in this discussion? I've was talking about the noise and other low floor issues and which streets they are a major issues on. It was in the middle of that discussion where I told JK I thought the market agreed with my assessment and disagreed with his. And I still think the same thing.

30: No one doubts that noisy low floors sell for less than higher quiet floors, other things being equal. This is hardly a market insight. kyle said that most of the apartments on floors 3-6 at, say, 30 E 9th or the higher floors at 40 E. 9th, were just fine to live in. You seemed to disagree. I simply said that the market values of these apartments at 30 and 40 9th sell for about what a same size pre-war on WEA in the very desirable 80s would also sell for, so they are not so bad as all that, the spectacular location overcoming any other weaknesses.

But I fail to see how that is germane to the conversation. I'll summarize what I see as my position:

30 East 9th Street was put forth as being (from the thread title) "best Prewar bldg. in the Village? best Post-War? "

I say it can't be because of traffic, noise, commercial tenant issues because of location and only having 5 residential floors (i.e. it's all low floors in a building where low floors have issues) so how can it be one of the best buildings.

The relative value of postwar apartments in the Village to prewar apartments on the Upper West Side (or anywhere else for that matter) really doesn't enter into the equation.

JK and I disagree as to the character of the blocks in question. I say the market agrees with me, meaning if you look at comparable units other buildings on low floors in other buildings in the Village, there is a palpable difference price wise between those units. JK points out that there are micro-climates (and I agree), like 12th St East of 5th vs 12th St West of 5th. I argue that this is true, but doesn't mean that the streets in question aren't more like 12th St East of 5th, and they suffer the same fate. I would suggest looking at prices at 15 West 12th St (since that's a block mentioned and it's a nondescript building so I'm not comparing it with, say Butterfield House, even though that might still be fair since we're talking about "the best postwar in the Village, but I don't want to over complicate the comparison) with those at 30 East 9th and tell me there isn't a negative premium due to the situations I've described as issued at 30 East 9th.

30yrs: I think you really misread what I wrote since I never said anything about what the best post-war was. All the talk of markets and the first 6 floors of a building being bad and cars on NYC streets was not the focus of what I was saying. I weighed in on prewars and think we pretty much were in agreement or not that far apart on the best ones. Having done that, I expanded the discussion to talk about the other neighborhood building--some of the post-wars. On the latter, I shared some plusses and minuses but didn't attempt to rank them. Certainly if you re-read my posts, you'll see I never ranked 2 Fifth, 11 Fifth or 30, 40, 55, or 60 E 9 or any others. I just listed ='s and -'s. What I said was there are reasons to consider them if money or other issues are keeping you from the prewars because there are some very good values relative to the neighborhood to be had in some of these buildings. There is certainly a reason they trade at 30-40+% more than similar units that can be found all over the UES.

"Certainly if you re-read my posts, you'll see I never ranked 2 Fifth, 11 Fifth or 30, 40, 55, or 60 E 9 or any others. I just listed ='s and -'s."

you sure about that?

"and as I've already said 30 E 9 (which I think is far and away the best post-war on the block)."

well, yeah, 30yrs. maybe i missed that one. got me. so far as that block goes. but honestly, i don't think i could really rank them as easily as the pre-wars because the post-wars aren't as distinguishable from one another. i can discuss them, but not rank them in any meaningful way.

Why are there so many units available at 51 Fifth?

↓ $2,950,000
51 Fifth Avenue #12A 2 beds 1,450 ft²
$2,750,000
51 Fifth Avenue #2BF 2 beds
$2,750,000
51 Fifth Avenue #2BF 2 beds
$2,700,000
51 Fifth Avenue #11C 2 beds
↓ $2,495,000
51 Fifth Avenue #2BF 2 beds
↓ $2,400,000
51 Fifth Avenue #14A 2 beds
↓ $1,795,000
51 Fifth Avenue #9C 2 beds

For what its worth, I understood "best" in a post-war to include price as in "best value", since people buying post-war are usually price sensitive. If you are looking at 1 or 40 Fifth, you usually are looking for "best" without regard for price.

"i don't think i could really rank them as easily as the pre-wars because the post-wars aren't as distinguishable from one another."

KW from my very first post in this thread:

"As for post-war, I think you have to break it down further into more specific time periods to get meaningful answers."

"Why are there so many units available at 51 Fifth?

↓ $2,950,000
51 Fifth Avenue #12A 2 beds 1,450 ft²
$2,750,000
51 Fifth Avenue #2BF 2 beds
$2,750,000
51 Fifth Avenue #2BF 2 beds
$2,700,000
51 Fifth Avenue #11C 2 beds
↓ $2,495,000
51 Fifth Avenue #2BF 2 beds
↓ $2,400,000
51 Fifth Avenue #14A 2 beds
↓ $1,795,000
51 Fifth Avenue #9C 2 beds"

Well, one reason is certainly that 3 of them are the same apartment....... ;).

Oh the townhouses between University and 6th Avenue on 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th are where you want to be.

Another case where there's a HUUUUUUUUGE difference between 9th St and 10, 11th, and 12th Sts.

you got me on that one 30 yrs - but what do you think of the building?

I never liked what they did with the lobby. The c line has 3 different variants (or is it 2 and one disappears, I don't remember off the top of my head), so it really depends which version. The original, un-cut up 6 (?a?) is decent, but the cut-up ?a? isn't any great shakes. And the studio that it gets cut up to isn't anything special, either. But most of the prewar buildings on 5th Ave below 14th have generally feh apartments. So compared to the others, I think it's one of the better one's (in terms of layouts).

In what order (of desirability) would you rank the following white (and beige) brick buildings in the Village?
Stewart House, John Adams, 79 West 12th Street,2 Fifth, Brevoort, Brevoort East?

I think some of that is highly dependent on personal taste, bu I think you can clearly make 2 groups:
1) Stewart House, Brevoort(s), 2 Fifth
2) 79 w 12th, John Adams

I think some would exclude 2 Fifth from that first group, but it CLEARLY doesn't belong in the second.

I think prices tell you something. I lived in the John Adams eight years ago because I couldn't afford to buy in Stewart House. That said, my order might be Breevort, Stewart House, 2 Fifth, Brevoort East, John Adams (I don't really know Lawrence House, so I don't know where to put it).

ali r.
{downtown broker}