Mosque near ground zero

"We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions." --Adolf Hitler

(Speech of May 1, 1927.)

jason... facts are stubborn things!

And I can find speeched where Reagan touted the new deal or where Hilary supported Bary Goldwater.

The fact remains that the Social Democratic party and the Communists were his political enemies - as they found out at the end of firing squads - while the Nationalist party and other reactionaries were who he allied with, because as President Von Hindenberg thought at the time, he was one of them, and could be controlled.

I think your German translation leaves much to be desired. There is not a German politician of ANY party, right, left, or Center, who call the Nazis anything other than far-right, and in Europe as a whole, virtually all the anti-immigrant, racist parties, are routinely called "far right" by all other parties, including the various conservatives.

None of this has anything to do with your dabbling in witchcraft or opposing the community center, however.

jason you're hiilarious. Two mafia families kill each other and you claim one of the families aren't in the mafia.You're proof, why would they kill memebers of the mafia, if they were in the mafia. Very funny.

members*

In my example, one family was publicly endorsed by the mayor and the chief of police, and you try and claim the city is not corrupt.

No new houses of worship of any religion anywhere in the city! The morons of all denominations have been entitled to do what they please for far far far too long. Secularity is the way of progress, so any organized religion should be treated as a peculiar fan club.
Or a gang.
Build something useful.

agreed commoner! Let's try atheism for the next 5000 years.

So Julia stil has not answered: How many muslims are allowed to gather in one spot within a two block radius of ground zero?

I myself used to live ONE block away (thus my screen name.) We had Muslim doorman. Who would pray if prayer time came during work hours. Also, cab drivers in the area might park in front of my bldg and set out prayer rugs.

Should that be banished? What about the Muslim jr-ibankers who lived in my bldg, or across the way in BPC, etc? What is the maximum number of Muslims who can gather near ground zero, and what is the radius, in meters or feet?

jason, i think it should be fairly congruent to the radius of useless space you fill up with your posts. in that analysis, the proximity should be somewhere around perth. and thats not amboy for you.

Unless your boyfriend is a Finnish eunic or you are so wealthy you don't need to work, stop worrying about dark skinned people, please that Finnish sausage or get a job that you went to college for. You did go to college, right hon?

jason ..... (as i said before)The muslims( as you describe them) should do what every they think is appropriate. We must be tolerant.

How many Muslims? What an absolutely stupid question. As several have pointed out, Muslims pray there and around there and even in the new WTC building now. And in the Pentagon. But none of that is a big shiny new middle finger building sticking out to the majority of New Yorkers and those including and especially family who are still sensitive about the huge terrorist attacks less than a decade ago that we still suffer from today.

There remains absolutely no reason why this center needs to be built within the shadow of the horrible attack on America and New York. Anyone who had any idea of the community could have figured that out before this was put in motion. But because some low-life developer with a sketchy past is making some bucks here, the "enlightened" are all outraged that the majority of New Yorkers have sensitivities contrary to their own.

If you don't like the idea of a new mosque being built in lower Manhattan, you may not want it to be built anywhere in Manhattan.

If you don't like muslims, or they just make you supicious when they gather; you may not want them to be anywhere around you; anywhere in Manhattan.

If you lost loved ones in the attack on 9/11, you may not want anything that reminds you of that attack; anywhere in Manhattan.

This mosque has now received more attention than if it was just allowed to be built, without the protests.

It has been reported by the experts that it's only a matter of when - not if another terrorist attack in Manhattan is going to happen. At that time the mosque will be surrounded, like Frankenstein's castle; by the citizens who were against building it.

I'm more concerned with Iran and Ahmadinejad getting fully functional nukes.

"I'm more concerned with Iran and Ahmadinejad getting fully functional nukes." What is your suggestion for dealing with this?

How many muslims jason? 19 is a good number. I think the muslims should congregate in the number of 19 muslims. That way, We will not forget sept 11 jason.

What is my suggestion, julialg?

Do you believe that it's a good thing for Iran to have nukes?
Are you a fan of Ahmadinejad?
If so, he's in town. Go show your support.

If not, then it may be of some concern to you, too. I won't ask you what your suggestion for dealing with this is.

I think that the Iran nuke issue is of greater importance, in terms of security.
The mosque issue seems to be one of free-floating anxiety about terrorist attacks by Islamic radicals.

I do know people who lost loved ones in the 9/11 attack. They don't have a problem with the mosque being built. Other people who lost loved ones do have a problem with it. Either way, everyone has a right to their opinion and personal fears.

If it's just a matter of that site being an insensitive choice for the mosque location, I agree that people may feel that way. I also think it's more a matter of fearing that terrorist plots will be hatched in the mosque, to be carried out by the muslims that pray there.

Look, julialg: I will never "forget sept 11". I spent weeks volunteering at Ground Zero.
There is a memorial being built for the families and friends of the victims, as well as the public to show their respects. That's why it's called a "memorial".

The mosque won't be visible from the memorial site. It's not across the street. The muslims praying there won't be water-ballooning the visitors. Torch-bearing mobs of citizens can surround it, when the next attack happens.

Unless Iran sends a suitcase nuke to Times Square, first.

Should the U.S attack the iran nuclear sites truth? I don't think your liberal friends would approve. So, again what is your suggestion?

why are you demanding an answer? you're just reinforcing your image as a petulant juvenile.

julialg: You don't know me. I don't know you.
You don't know how many of my friends are liberals, nor what they would approve of.

I never stated that I have a suggestion for a solution to Iran's nuke program. I stated my opinion about the mosque building site; in terms of security. I stated that I am more concerned with Iran and Ahmadinejad getting fully functional nukes.
You comment about Israel, but don't state if you have ever been there. Then,it's a switch-up to commenting about Hitler.

I don't like Hamas supporters. I don't like Hezbollah supporters. I love Israel. I go there often, and have stayed there for long amounts of time.

I don't care if you like or love Israel, or not.
I don't care if you want the U.S. to attack the Iran nuke sites, or not.
I don't care if your friends are liberals, or not.
I don't care what you or your friends would approve of.
I'm not asking you for a suggestion, nor your thoughts about a solution; to this or any other issue.

*puts toys back in pram*

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/09/jon-stewarts-takedown-of-gops-pledge-to-america-same-sht-we-heard-before-video.php?ref=dcblt

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101005/ap_on_re_us/us_times_square_car_bomb

I think WE need even more mosques in NYC and invite more muslims to come and pray in New York.

Wow Juila, I think you'd fit right in with the crew from Westboro Baptist Church. Why don't you go picket some funerals and tell everyone how God is killing soldiers being we're all homosexuals. Actually, now that I think of it, they'll fit right in with Muslim extremists (thought sounds like you categorize all Muslims as "extremist"), they're literally on the same team.

Bottom line is all organized religions are a bunch of mystical hogwash...

...though last night's episode of Glee has made me a believe in Grilled Cheesus.

"Bottom line is all organized religions are a bunch of mystical hogwash..." Religions are cults. We can agree on that.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904332804576538923426350218.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_LEADTop

Mike Bloomberg and the End of Tolerance
Why New York's mayor says there's no room for religious leaders on 9/11.

BY WILLIAM MCGURN

Wasn't it only a year ago that New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg was unburdening himself of near daily sermons warning about our right to religious freedom?

What had aroused the mayor was the growing public opposition to a proposed Islamic Center two blocks from Ground Zero. So everywhere he went, he preached the cause of tolerance. In a dramatic speech on Governors Island—against a backdrop of supporting clergy—Mr. Bloomberg asserted "there is no neighborhood in this city that is off limits to God's love and mercy, as the religious leaders here with us today can attest."

agree with the other rudy, how can you have a memorial service without prayer.

"The elected officials at the ceremony will only read lines of preselected poetry"

wtf poetry is nice and all, but it's not prayer and it never will be. prayer is universal and you gain strength from it because it's a spiritual experience you share with others in humbling yourself before a higher power, knowing it has been shared in the same way by millions like you and millions before you. poetry is individual, expressive and completely subjective. i never pray and i prayed on 9/11, anyone who was there and says they didn't is lying. poetry. how about some f*ing aromatherapy and fingerpaints expressing how that day made you feel while they're at it. stupid and cheap. and yes, i know they don't usually include prayer in those things, but the 10year anniversary is kind of a big deal. if you told me in the weeks after that 10 years later i'd be complaning about the nature of the memorial service, i wouldn't have believed you, i thought we were all going to die in a nuclear war by now. that is all.

bloomberg doesnt want any religion or clergy present because the only diety that will be allowed to attend is himself. his comments lately about the function of gvmt are so self-absorbed that i am actually looking forward to christine quinn running this city. if liu gets more than 20% of the vote, i am pulling a streistand and promise to leave.

alan, oh, alan this thread has harkened me back to the glory days. where art thou?

yes! good thinking! christine quinn will bring alan out of his retirement. he LOVES christine quinn. so we just have to be patient.

'prayer is universal "

15%% of Americans (and a higher percentage of New Yorkers) are Atheist/Agnositic/Secular/No Religion according to every recent survey on the topic. And many organized religions do not, in fact pray in the Judeo-Christian manner.

then they can observe a moment of silence or update their facebook page while the other 85% say a prayer for the dead.

amen sista.

Yes, it would be wholly uncontroversial to have a religious prayer there. No one might misinterpret it, no matter who gave it. You have really thought this one out.

nothing that hasn't been done before

"Rudy Washington, a deputy mayor in former Mayor Rudolph Giuliani's administration, said he's outraged. Mr. Washington organized an interfaith ceremony at Yankee Stadium shortly after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks."

"During the 2001 "Prayer for America" service at Yankee Stadium, leaders from the major religions—Roman Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Protestants, Sikhs, Greek Orthodox—addressed the crowd of thousands and an even larger TV audience from a podium atop second base.

"I brought every major religion to this event in Yankee Stadium," said Mr. Washington, who is considering holding a news conference on Sept. 11 to object to the exclusion of clergy."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903461304576526863616758344.html

lucilleonaroll.

columbiacounty? you're a rangers fan? huh. so this is a jersey thing. it's all coming together.

lucille, my post on you was sort of a compliment. you should know that i have not changed handles or have created multiple personalities although i do see how you could spin your theories given that level of craziness around here. just me.

Muslims pray to the same god as christians and jews. That's why they recognize Jesus as a prophet as well.
There is NO controversy here.

Re: anyone who was there and says they didn't [pray] is lying.

I was there and certainly didnt pray to any silly made up man in the sky. I ran. Please don't project your naive superstitious ignorance onto others.

that's between you and the made up man in the sky. did you think you were going to die? that's what i meant, i guess, not just physically being in the area. although no that i think about it, even before that, when you saw that first person head towards the ground, your mind didn't think to say something for his soul? mine immidiately did and i'm not a religious person who prays. you watched a person choose a jumping death over a burning death in front of you and you didn't say something for his soul? wouldn't brag about that and wouldn't call people who did naive superstitious and ignorant.

w34th can continue to deify the pigeons that took a dump on his/her stoop for all i care. however jason, with his glib commentary and know-it-all proclamations about how to properly sanctify the 9/11 MEMORIAL ceremony is completely another matter. Spewing out surveys on religion and agnostics is dribble. He is a west-coast native who probably was hanging out on haight sucking on a bong that day. btw, not a bad gig but take your survey and roll it up into a fatty.

There are plenty of Atheists and Agnostics and Seculars in Arlington and other such military cemataries (most famously perhaps Pat Tilman). There ARE Atheists in Foxholes.

now thats deep, jason.

jason, not sure what you mean by that. sure there are people who are atheists.

Re: w34th can continue to deify the pigeons that took a dump on his/her stoop for all i care.

Intelligent individuals don't deify anything. Fools create gods to fill their fearful little minds. And speaking of fools, back to Lucille. Lucy I lost several close friends on 9/11. They didnt have souls, they had flesh and blood bodies and minds that were destroyed in the name of an imaginary boogey man in the sky.

But you can have your little fantasies if they help you sleep at night, but again, dont impose them on others.

ok, suit yourself. it might be of interedt to the topic to note however that virtually every significant scientific mind of our time has admitted a belief in a higher power. infact, the people who yell the loudest that they have the answers because they believe in "science" usually dont understand science. talking about scientists mind u, not philosophers. philosophers tend to think they are the higher power. dont know why u see the need to be so confrontational about such a difficult topic but im sorry for your loss.

"jason, not sure what you mean by that. sure there are people who are atheists. "

You can't be that dense. Can you?

"Lucillebluth
about 23 hours ago...

...prayer is universal and you gain strength from it because it's a spiritual experience you share with others in humbling yourself before a higher power...i never pray and i prayed on 9/11, anyone who was there and says they didn't is lying...."

Again, PLENTLY of people have faced life-and-death experiences and never prayed. This is one of the biggest lies spread by the religious. That Darwin or Carl Sagan converted on their death beds, or that there are no Atheists in Foxholes.

omg wtf do u understand that in ur last post u claimed to know what went on in the minds of pat tillman and other dead soldiers in the moments before their death? ok. i would ask how u arrived at the conclusion that i must be religious since i only said i prayed one day 10 years ago, but im not really interested in following ur............reasoning. lets just agree i am dense and u r smart and go our separate ways. wow.

Pat Tilman's brother and parents have said so very publicly, his brother famously cursed out those invoking God (including John McCain) at his public funeral. "He is not with God, with was fucking Atheist." Or words to that effect. On national TV. So I am pretty sure.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/ground-zero-mosque-scam-article-1.1255755
Suit: Money funneled by former ‘Ground Zero’ mosque imam to finance lavish lifestyle

Imam Feisel Abdul Rauf pocketed millions in donations to buy real estate and a fancy car, the suit charges

By Barbara Ross AND Larry Mcshane / NEW YORK DAILY NEWS

Tuesday, February 5, 2013, 12:33 PM

The former imam of the controversial “Ground Zero” mosque used millions of dollars in donations to fund a lavish lifestyle of travel and cars, a bombshell lawsuit charges.

The court papers, filed Tuesday in Manhattan Supreme Court, allege that Imam Feisel Abdul Rauf pocketed $3 million from the Malaysian government and another $167,000 from private donors.

The money — intended to fund a pair of non-profits — was used by Rauf and his wife Daisy Khan to buy real estate, pricey trips and vacations, entertainment and a luxury sports car, the suit charged.

“Rauf exhibited the falsity ... and deception to defraud plaintiffs and divert assets to himself,” read the 11-page lawsuit filed by the charitable Deak Family Foundation, Westchester County businessman Robert Deak and his wife Moshira Soliman.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/ground-zero-mosque-scam-article-1.1255755#ixzz2K4VzYH1h

beware.

hfscomm1

http://blogs.wsj.com/metropolis/2013/04/26/911-airplane-debris-found-more-than-a-decade-later/

A piece of landing gear from one of the planes that crashed into the World Trade Center has been discovered wedged behind a building in Lower Manhattan, police said Friday.

The part, which police believe came from one of the two commercial airliners destroyed on Sept. 11, 2001, was discovered Wednesday by surveyors inspecting the rear of 51 Park Pl., several blocks from ground zero. The surveyors called 911 to report the debris with a “clearly visible Boeing BA +1.29% identification number,” the New York Police Department said in a statement. Photos released by police show rusted machinery and other debris wedged between the buildings.

Police are treating the area between 51 Park Pl. and the building behind it, 50 Murray St., as a crime scene until the medical examiner’s office evaluates the area. Authorities will then decide whether to sift the soil “for possible human remains,” according to the statement.

The Park Place building attracted controversy several years ago when critics protested the plan to build an Islamic cultural center on the site.

Beware.

Hfscomm1

What's his agenda:

columbiacounty
about 2 years ago
Posts: 11688
Member since: Jan 2009
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report abuse

why are you demanding an answer? you're just reinforcing your image as a petulant juvenile.

As noted....beware hfscomm1.

C0lumbiaC0unty, always trying to distract. Here's a piece of the airplane from 9/11, and C0lumbiaC0unty has his typical agenda to support more deception. We can only speculate on the full extent of his motives, including on this thread.

columbiacounty
about 2 years ago
Posts: 11690
Member since: Jan 2009
ignore this person
report abuse

Here is your book report...

Bullshit.

Why don't you speculate?

Further inspection reveals that it may have been ejected from a pressure cooker...

Goddamned Czechs.

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/World-Trade-Center-Airplane-Pieces-Found-Sifting-Debris-Remains-204901961.html

9/11 Plane Part Found in Alley Near World Trade Center
By Shimon Prokupecz and Andrew Siff
| Saturday, Apr 27, 2013 | Updated 6:30 AM EDT

A 5-foot-long chunk of airplane debris found near the World Trade Center site is believed to be a piece of landing gear from one of the planes that hit the towers more than 11 years ago, NBC 4 New York first reported.

Police confirmed Friday that the part was found wedged between two buildings in a very narrow alley only about 18 inches wide between the rear of 50 Murray St. and back of 51 Park Place, the site where a mosque and community center has been proposed three blocks from ground zero.

The part bears a "Boeing" stamp, followed by a series of numbers, as seen in an exclusive photo obtained by NBC 4 New York. The bent metal chunk contains cables and levers and is about 17 inches wide and 4 feet long, according to The Associated Press.

Police Commissioner Ray Kelly visited the alley Friday evening and viewed the debris from about 30 feet away.

"It's a manifestation of a horrific terrorist act a block and a half away from where we stand," he said. "It brings back terrible memories to anyone who was here or who was involved in that event, and obviously I think the families could very well be impacted by this finding."

Kelly described the piece as being about 5 feet by 4 feet by 17 inches, lying in a "very, very narrow, confined area."

"It's difficult to get in there and see," he said.

He said there was rope intertwined in part of the gear, and there were no marks on the buildings indicating the piece hit the walls on the way down.

"It would have had to fall down at a certain angle," said Kelly.

Asked whether he was surprised to see such a large plane part anchored in such a tight area, Kelly said: "If you see how confined this space is, and you realize the chaos that existed down here on this street, it's not surprising. It's very, very confined. No cleanup went on in this 18-inch space between these two buildings."

The NYPD said the landing gear was found after surveyors hired by the property owner inspecting the rear of 51 Park Place called police on Wednesday. See below for a map.

Police spokesman Paul Browne said the NYPD has secured the location "as it would a crime scene," and investigators are photographing the scene and restricting access until the medical examiner completes a health and safety evaluation.

Officials said the soil below the piece of debris could also be searched for remains.

Police officials say the part could be difficult to remove, and may require demolition work that would destroy the two surrounding buildings. Officials are expected to be back at the scene on Monday to see if it can be removed.

"It really is a historical artifact," Kelly said.

When plans for the Islamic center at 51 Park Place were made public in 2010, opponents said they didn't want a mosque so close to where Islamic extremists attacked. They argued the site was "sacred" because landing gear from one of the hijacked Boeing 767 jets had punctured the roof of the building on Sept. 11.

During street protests, they clashed with supporters of the center, who said it would promote harmony between Muslims and followers of other faiths.

The building includes a Muslim prayer space that has been open for three years. After protests died down, the center, called Park51, hosted its first exhibit last year. The space remains under renovation.

Mohammed Fekonus, who prays inside the mosque at Park51 and whose son was a Stuyvesant High School student who ran from the dust cloud on Sept. 11, is convinced discoveries like the plane part could be endless.

"We were all emotionally distressed by that event," he said.

"If you really want to look for things, we'll find things 100 years from now."

Donna Marsh O'Connor, who lost her daughter Vanessa Lang Langer in the attacks and is a member of September 11th Families for a Peaceful Tomorrow, called the landing gear discovery "bizarre."

O'Connor is a supporter of the Islamic center and said the fact that the plane fragment was found there "makes me think that this was the right place for a center that was going to heal the divide."

In a statement, Sharif El-Gamal, the president of Soho Properties, which owns 51 Park Place, said workers called the city and the police as soon as they discovered the landing gear. He said the company is cooperating with the city and the police to make sure the piece of equipment "is removed with care as quickly and effectively as possible."

Patricia Riley, whose sister Lorraine Riley was killed in the Sept. 11 attacks, called the landing gear discovery "very strange."

"Twelve years later we are still finding remnants of the attack on our country," she said. "... For years to come we'll continue to find things that we didn't see before. Hopefully, they'll serve as a reminder that we have to stay vigilant."

The Park51 space, a former Burlington Coat factory, is a five-story, mildly run-down building. Renovations are expected to take years and would add an auditorium, a pool, a restaurant and culinary school, a child care facility and artist studios.

On Sept. 11, American Airlines flight 11 hit the north tower at 8:46 a.m., and United flight 175 hit the south tower at 9:03 a.m.

The rubble from the 9/11 attack was cleared from the 16-acre site by the spring of 2002. Other debris, including human remains, has been found scattered outside the site, including on a rooftop and in a manhole, in years since.

Boeing declined comment.

why doesn't SE shut you down?

A plant?
9/11 Plane Landing Gear May Have Been Planted Between Buildings
http://gothamist.com/2013/04/27/911_plane_landing_gear_may_have_bee.php#photo-1
The police are continuing to investigate plane landing gear—which they believe is from one of the planes that crashed into the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001—found between two buildings blocks from the WTC site. Police Commissioner Ray Kelly described the piece as being around 5 feet by 4 feet by 17 inches, discovered in a "very, very narrow, confined area" between 51 Park Place and 50 Murray Street: "It's difficult to get in there and see."

Kelly said there was rope tied to one part of the gear, raising the possibility that it had been lowered. He added there weren't marks on the buildings: "It would have had to fall down at a certain angle." The location happens to be near where a controversial mosque and community center has been planned. The Post reports, "A lawyer for the proposed 'Park51' mosque claimed the landing gear was planted by opponents of the project — a theory Police Commissioner Ray Kelly said cops would explore."

The object was noticed by surveyors (hired by the owners of 51 Park Place) yesterday who then contacted the police. Kelly also added, "If you see how confined this space is, and you realize the chaos that existed down here on this street, it's not surprising. It's very, very confined. No cleanup went on in this 18-inch space between these two buildings."

There is a Boeing identification number on the gear, but the National Transportation Safety Board hasn't checked it against the two 9/11 flights yet.

Sally Regenhard, whose firefighter son died on September 11 and who opposes plans for the Park 51 mosque, told the Daily News, "The main goal was build, build, money, money, money, the hell with human remains, and this is what we have today. Some people say, ‘I’m shocked.’ I’m not shocked," adding, "This is a legacy of failure and disregard. Perhaps finding the fuselage now is finally going to make people realize this."

NBC New York reports, "Police officials say the part could be difficult to remove, and may require demolition work that would destroy the two surrounding buildings. Officials are expected to be back at the scene on Monday to see if it can be removed." Kelly said, "I think it really is an historical artifact, and we want to make sure it doesn’t involve any human remains." The police have secured the area as a crime scene and the Medical Examiner's office will sift for remains.

Hasan - Guilty

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/22214

Bales guilty too but they shouldn't have let him plea, was there really a question of the ability to convict that they had to concede on the death penalty? http://www.usatoday.com/article/news/2692917

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/36981-oppressive-security-around-wtc

Latest on this site, a new condo: http://ny.curbed.com/archives/2015/03/11/ground_zero_mosque_developer_beefs_up_jean_nouvel_condos.php

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/donald-trump-6m-offer-buy-park51-moneyman-cheap-stunt-investor-lawyer-article-1.439164
http://www.breitbart.com/video/2015/12/07/ground-zero-mosque-imam-mr-donald-trump-your-procedure-is-a-losing-proposition/