High End Reno Example

Is it truly high-end, KW? With window AC units? A contractor's-special Viking appliance package? It's very nice, but there's some middlebrow stuff going on there.

Love the layout but all that white?
Very LDS Temple chic.
One of those tubs is for baptisms.
Future Romney home?

A tad 'designery' for my taste. Just too 'done' (they lost me with the 'I'm-too-cool-to-hang-my-art' cliche and the yawn-inducing desk "tableau" of Pottery Barn 'vintage' hardware...).

Also, these particular updates are in great danger of looking very yesterday very quickly. The smoked glass kitchen cabs, the slate-gray backsplash and counter and the plank tile bathroom floor--these are all current fads that are quickly becoming overdone and passe.

West--one thing I don't have an issue with is the window AC units--some buildings, as you're certainly aware, do not allow thru-wall/central air. So no matter how high the high-end work, sometimes you're stuck with what you're stuck with.

kylewest, seriously? The living room doesn't work, the kitchen cabinets look cheap, the master bed is a complete mismatch, and the second bed looks cheap. Floors and ceilings look great.

Jeez, not even a hall closet for coats. Bedrooms on the small side. No formal dining room. Tryng way too hard to be non-prewar styoe. Kyle, I'm sort of surprised you are so in love. But those herringobne floors in the living room are beautiful.

Kyle,
Tak'in some heat for sharing the love.

Bramstar: I believe 33 Fifth permits central AC.

Window units are fine. We have them, in the rooms that have AC at all. I just don't associate them with high-end renovation.

diff strokes for diff folks

I agree w ph41.

West, I also don't have a problem with window units as absolutely hate central AC (any kind of forced air is an abomination, but that's just me.) And I don't think that a high-end renovation has any specific built-in aesthetic requrements. What's good for the stroller folks might be, er, not good for, er, someone not so homey. But I do think this apartment had suffered a major overstaging done according to a real estate definition of "cool" and "taste".

I agree with West81.. I see window units and immediately think the apartment is not completely renovated. Personally, i cannot stand window units for many reasons. Through the wall AC's, is more aesthetically pleasing, unless of course it isn't allowed, then I would go with Central. I think they had a decent interior decorator and have done some staging. The apartment has a nice flow to it, open and airy, and I agree it does have some nice tiles etc, but a bit trendy.

I'm with KW. I like it enough that I wouldn't change it if I bought. No-one else's reno that's going to be my taste exactly, but this is neutral & pleasing enough that I wouldn't change anything right away except for wall colors.

nyc10023: I wouldn't change anything either. I was just asking whether it's a great example of high-end renovation. The reality is that most people who do no-expense-spared renovations put in central air if they can. Maybe the owners just don't like central AC. The more common scenario, I think, is to consider CAC and balk at the cost. For me, that would raise the question of what other corners may have been cut - not because I care about central AC, but because the price reflects fairly high-end work.

KW knows way more about this stuff than I do. I can't judge materials or workmanship or even condition from photos. My basic question to KW would be: what makes this a high-end renovation?

W81: He didn't say "high-end", he said "great" - different things.

As for CAC, putting in CAC in pre-war buildings requires compromise. Vents need to be made, sacrificing some symmetry of beamed ceilings and whatnot. Ceilings are lowered. Doubt that it was the cost alone that made the owners not put it in.

Bram: agree that it is not classic pre-war and will date a bit, but for all that and the less discerning buyer, it's nicely done enough that it presents as "great". Can't speak to high-end unless I see it in the flesh.

nyc10023: The thread title is "High End Reno Example".

As ducts have gotten smaller and compressors less obtrusive, adding CAC to a prewar apartment has become less destructive. You're right, though: Something is always sacrificed.

Let's not fight. We breeders need to stick together.

West81st--The window unit AC issue is a bit of a sore spot for me as our building currently does not allow thru-wall or central since both require breaking the facade. We'd really like to see that change but for now it is what it is and we're stuck with window-mounted clunkers.

W81: My bad. Given the high ppsf at 33 Fifth, it's unlikely that the sellers didn't pay a pretty penny for the reno - from that point of view, high dollar cost reno = high end? Really can't judge unless you see it in the flesh. Aesthetically, pleasing enough.

Bram: Not even on the interior-facing walls? What about Mitsubishi Mr. Slim ductless A/Cs? Or giving part of an interior-facing window?

ironically....

take a look at the last sale for this apartment line.

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/135975-coop-33-fifth-avenue-greenwich-village-new-york

"The apartment has a wonderful double living room, an eat-in kitchen, central air-conditioning, and a laundry room."

"What a great reno. Bit above my price range, but wouldn't this be a great apartment to live in?"

If you had the $4.5M, this is how you'd want to spend it? For me, no way. Too small (2000 sq ft), and although the renovations are nice, nothing special about the space. I've got much better ways of spending $4.5M on housing.

>>Bram: Not even on the interior-facing walls? What about Mitsubishi Mr. Slim ductless A/Cs? Or giving part of an interior-facing window?<<

We don't have any interior-facing windows. Have been considering the slim options. But wouldn't be able to put them on the tops of windows as most people do because the our windows are arched.

omg. such chatter about a/c. Some buildings will not allow CAC or thru wall. You're stuck with window. So set that aside. Many very high end renos still don't go for the added $100K for a/c. A reasonable choice in my view.

On the "things I'd change" or don't love list: I don't care for the three-panel doors that much, esp. frosted glass. But that's small and easy to change if it really bothers you. Also, sad there is no entry closet to speak of. I could live with that. As for decor, who cares--like it or not you aren't buying that--the furniture, doodads, paintings (or lack thereof) leave with the current owners. Are we really going to focus on staging choices for photos?

Why I love this apartment: first, excellent LAYOUT; logical, works for modern living, no overly weird spaces, decent storage (other than no entry closet); one bedroom on right side of living room on floor plan would make nice library. Second: those floors! Third, fourth, etc: ceilings and windows treated well and clearly read pre-war; moldings are perfect; kitchen is functional, non-fussy, handsome (I'd prefer clear glass to frosted in the cabinets, but I'm also very neat so it wouldn't work for everyone) and can accommodate an island for some seating and extra work space; not sure I love banquets all that much; bathroom shot shows contemporary high end choices respectful of a prewar interior; LIGHT--lots of windows with 2 on different walls in bedrooms off living room; LOCATION; views are difficult to discern but I think this apartment faces Fifth Ave which is a view I've had twice in this area and find appealing--also some oblique views of the church across the avenue which is uber picturesque; millwork looks top-notch design and very high quality.

This is in short a great layout with generous space in a top prewar building in the heart of a AAA location with good light and decent views that has a high end reno that avoids too many taste specific choices and instead embodies many elements with timeless appeal. If I can't have Penhouse C at 40 Fifth Ave (which was a STEAL of the century at $11MM), then an apartment like this one would make me pretty darn ecstatic.

Nice layout but not my thing (or my clients' either). Leaving aside the A/C question, and the coat closet question (neither of which are small points) -- IMHO this needs to be warmed up tremendously. Nothing some paint, some paintings, and better furniture couldn't help, but I don't think this sparseness reads as either homey or hyperexpensive.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

ali, I think those are interior decoration issues that are very easily solved. I tend toward uncluttered and clean anyway... early 60's inspired modern design that is unfussy, "honest", functional, fun, a touch of hip and edge. I see the unit I posted as rife with possibilities and so it probably appeals to me more than some. I'd say the opposite of my design aesthetic is a wallpaper border or anything ersatz "colonial" or "Tuscan" style or God forbid the most vomit-inducing style of all: "shabby chic" (which holds all the appeal of stone-washed baggy jeans, Uggs, Crocs in public). The hard lines of an ultra-modern space are too harsh for me. I'd tire of them.

Oh, KW, I never disagree with you, so it surprises even me when I do. But I think the lesson may be that apartments can be overstaged. Either the lack of decoration -- and honestly, three decent paintings and a dog bed is probably all it would have taken to warm up this space for me -- makes me pass this one over, or it is actually not a $$$$ renovation and the emptiness makes me look for clues.

Westie mentioned the "middlebrow" kitchen. I would have to see it in person to tell, but I suspect he's right, and why not warm that up by putting out some gourmet cooking equipment? I'm not saying you need to take it in the direction of a specific taste by putting out copper pots and country paintings of thyme, but it feels like it needs something.

I'm showing 12-2 so I can't go to the OH, but I look forward to reviews if anyone goes to see it in person.

ali

my design style is to watch david bromstad and do the exact opposite of what he says...

i love minimal, but this ain't dade county...

they should (without cluttering) put in something/one aged, worn, or old world to juxtapose its clean lines.

the beat up floors on the guest bedroom made me jizz...

intentionally battered is the new sleek.

There's a narrow deep coat closet next to the front door. I'd use that little study as a coat/junk room, too.

Poor sellers can't win when getting ready for photos. Had they left the homey touches we'd have dished them for that. They did get double duty from the key and that other tchotchke, moving them from the desk to the bedside table.

What I can't figure, though, is why they didn't adjust the lower doors on the kitchen cabinets. They're all droopy. If you go for that full-overlay style, you've got to keep a screwdriver handy for when the doors inevitably get out of whack. Or at least for when a photographer's coming to help you sell the place.

kylewest, I'm with you. Besides, why even talk about decorators' issues when you can do whatever you want with this great space?
On your other thread, I'm very much a private outdoor space junkie. I'll be posting on that one when I find The One.

To clarify: I detest "shabby chic" and "cool" stuff; clean lines with some art deco thrown in...

Update after a visit: I was wrong, and I was right.

The good: the VIEWS exceed expectation. Nothing being hidden in the photos--truth is this is a light-flooded apartment with primarily western views of Fifth Ave. looking across to 30 Fifth Ave and the church just off to the right. Plenty of windows facing north, east, south and west. The apartment clearly "reads" as PREWAR with wonderful floors and beamed ceilings of about 10' and appropriate moldings in very good shape. LAYOUT is as it appears on plan with one exception: the entry closet is quite large and fully able to serve as a coat closet--don't know why it appears so thin in the plan. Flow is pretty good. Master bdrm accommodates king bed but isn't huge--if all you do is sleep and boink in the bedroom, it'll be fine. Don't expect room for a chaise and desk. There is a decent "den" off to the right of living room (good TV area), and a guest room next to it. Room near the entry is best suited for an office or perhaps child's room--it is narrow. All wiring appears to be updated and hidden in the walls--no cable running all over the moldings.

The bad: I was wrong on level of reno. While the ceiling (except for one badly patched 2'x2' area in living room), floors and moldings are great, and walls are in excellent shape--no need to skim coat, that about where it stops. Everything else felt mediocre to me--even cheap. I personally would feel kind of disappointed to spend this much and then settle for the poor finish quality, so I'd have to rip it all out meaning I'm paying a seller for a reno I am going to tear out. The cabinetry doors from kitchen to living room to bathrooms are 1/2" thick and do not have that satisfying *thunk* that quality millwork has when you open and close them. Kitchen cabinet doors are all out of alignment (as observed astutely by others above). Doors thru out are not high end custom Trustile type doors. The three-square-modern panel door look is out of sorts in this space and a mistake. Hardware like doorknobs are cheap as they come at Home Depot. Bathrooms are just OK. Cabinet/closet type things in baths are awful--more disappointing millwork. Fixtures are fine.

A note on the building: it is doorman operated elevator building. Typically one doorman is on duty and he operates the elevator. Some will like this, some won't.

Bottom line: Great bones as expected from the floor plan--even a little better. AAA location, building, light, views and AA layout. But the price seeks a profit on a renovation that disappoints in finish quality. You end up with the most expensive apartment in the building, a very high maintenance (that doesn't include a permanent $240 assessment), and the need to do additional renovation to bring it to a truly high end unit.

Thanks for the write-up, KW.

So what's the bottom line -- if you had $4.5M in the bank, would you spend it on this?

Great report!

It's amazing what people will cheap out on. All that money on labor, and then go for tinny-feeling doorknobs. Easy to replace, though, as they're the two-hole kind rather than mortised.

So kylewest, when I said, "The living room doesn't work, the kitchen cabinets look cheap, the master bed is a complete mismatch, and the second bed looks cheap. Floors and ceilings look great," was I right?

Hfs....you're always right.

That was great!

Kw: great report. I admit that I rushed to measure my millwork. Phew, 7/8ths of an inch thick doors.

@nyc10023: lol. whew.
@huntersburg: you were right on spotting the kitchen cabinetry issues, but not sure what you mean about the bedrooms. Neither room looked "cheap" to me if you are looking at the bones--they were quite nice. I thought the size of the rooms was acceptable. It would be nicer if there were a hallway into the master bath on left of plan (I like little hallways), but other than that, it was cross ventilation with great light and large bathroom. I just personally didn't care for the way the bathrooms were finished for the most part and would change them.
@inoada: no. It will be a great place to live for someone, but not at this price. I don't understand how they came up with it. 15AB sold for so much less in 2008--this reno just is not worth $1MM imo plus the apartment is 4 stories lower than 15AB. The market in this area is most surely not up since 2008 either--at least not this much. I think this is ambitious pricing to test the waters and to see if a big fish will bite. The place has great bones, but realistically, there will likely need to be a serious price adjustment to get it sold. Compare the property to this: http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/514034-condo-28-east-10th-street-greenwich-village-new-york This one was about same price and maintenance but brand spanking new if utterly fab building in practically as good a location. I'd rather have the latter insofar as I wouldn't have to touch a thing when I moved in other than to decorate.

>@huntersburg: you were right on spotting the kitchen cabinetry issues, but not sure what you mean about the bedrooms. Neither room looked "cheap" to me if you are looking at the bones--they were quite nice.

Not the "bones" but rather the furniture. It was worst in the living room. The floors and ceilings were great. The rest, no.

I wouldn't call a splitting bedrooms a great layout.
2.8-3mil is a reasonable price.

Here's another example of high-end reno that I saw yesterday, for possible discussion and critique:
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/641651-coop-171-west-71st-street-lincoln-square-new-york

I think the two halves of an original apartment were reunited by a previous owner, then purchased together and gut-renovated by the current sellers. Open house report will follow, when I have time to write it up. My basic impression is that the apartment might be over-renovated, because only one room - the MBR - has any kind of view, and it's partial, looking northwest toward the Ansonia. Gorgeous interior, though.

KW: But my "custom" solid poplar doors are only 1 3/8" thick. Low-end.

W81: If you put it like that, how could I not visit?

I think it's amazing, but no one's house would actually look like that in real life since people would want to hang personal photos and might need more functioning furniture.

ba294: agree it is less than ideal, but not because the bedrooms are split. Rather, because there is no foyer to master bdrm. I don't like when living area opens directly to bedroom. 40-50 E 10th St has many such layouts: its a gorgeous prewar building, but that configuration is not what I want for that kind of money.

I think I must have been ultra caffeinated and extra happy when I first say this listing and posted. Frankly, I would plotz for an apartment at the Devonshire long before I would the one that started this thread. But for a combined apartment, this one is still pretty good bones (ignoring price for the moment). Most combos are disasters; this one is serviceable. Your pricing is probably much closer to what this will go for if it is to sell. I'd say more around the $3MM mark. If the reno were more move-in ready and up to standards for a multi milllion dollar unit, I'd say maybe $3.25MM-ish. I can't look up the 15AB combo's sale price right now but that is obviously a strong guidepost.

Ignore bubble pricing? Wha? Wha?

-let's ignore for moment that girl used to be a dude. Her hair is so luscious with just a hint of curls. And absolutely no cellulite. Look how slim her hips are. Just an amazing body with perky breasts that can pass for real. She really didn't go too big up there.-

Now please take off your underwear--- omfg. That is one long schlong on this otherwise beautiful girl.

W67: From everything I've heard (people who've had up-and-close and personal encounters), with the proper gear, it's not a problem :)

If you want to see the definition of high-end . . . .

http://www.jbmarchitect.com/

This apartment sports a much higher end renovation (including central air), is more tastefully and warmly staged, and boasts a pretty fantastic layout. I think it's overpriced, though.

http://robilotti.com/property-dsp.cfm?ID=226