East River Ferry is sinking
- The city is subsidizing the East River Ferry service from Greenpoint, Brooklyn, to Long Island City, Queens, to Manhattan to the tune of $9 million over three years, but a year into the contract, only a handful of commuters use it regularly. Morning rush hours are busier, with more than a dozen riders. The city's Economic Development Corp. is sticking to its guns that New Yorkers will eventually get on board. [The New York Times]
:: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/12/nyregion/east-river-ferry-service-hopes-lovely-commute-brings-it-self-reliance.html

didn't ikea ferry service solve this problem? cheaper and more frequent.. no personal experience tho, i prefer the paramus store shhh

wasnt there an article a few months that ridership was booming ?

ridership boomed from 5 people to a dozen ;)

"Sinking" is quite the spin when there's been more than double projected fares. Great to see the same haters blissfully ignoring reality. Doubt any of them have actually been on the ferry. Or perhaps even realize how heavily other modes of public transportation are subsidized.

http://gothamist.com/2012/07/16/ferry_exciting_east_river_ferry_hit.php

Growing pains. As the queens/bklyn waterfront grows the demand will without a doubt increase.It doesnt happen overnight. It will help alleviate cars on the road, particularly some bus traffic that takes up unbelievable space queuing up for bridges and tunnels.

However I have to say as well, they've done a piss poor job promoting water service,and Im sure 50% of new yorkers still don't know it exists.
In addition, access to the ports can be cumbersome and not the easiest. Some shuttles to and from grand central station to the east 34th st port would do wonders. Cant speak for the other side (destination ports) as Ive had no need to go to and fro Greenpoint or Bklyn.

by eliminating the 2 stops that under perform and then adding and additional one in manhattan may actually bring it closer to break even as more people will board now that the ferry brings them closer to their work.

There's definitely room for improvements - I do think it's been advertised well enough in Brooklyn, but probably not in Manhattan. In the end though, there's a huge difference between a bad idea and less-than ideal execution. If anything, it's much more the latter, and I have little doubt it will get better. Metrocard integration would be a huge step.

The issue, as yikes points out, is that it doesn't really go anywhere and is only convenient for very small number of people. Once you get the citibike thing up and running though it'll make it a lot easier to actually get into Manhattan and then go somewhere.

"is that it doesn't really go anywhere and is only convenient for very small number of people"

Over a million trips in a year doesn't strike me as a "very small number of people" who apparently aren't going "anywhere." Seems like some are mad that they aren't benefiting directly from every last tax dollar they spend...

it's less then 2K daily riders if it were to run on weekdays only. my guess that it runs on weekends, and just like the express buses in brooklyn, queens, bronx and stinky island lose loads by running a bus with 5 or 6 people in it.

get rid of the weekends and the underused stops and they may come close to break even.

"i, for one, don't like my taxes being used to subsidize initiatives which benefit very few. and, as a liberal democrat, i am happy to pay taxes for legit effective public works and projects, which benefit many, and contribute to other efficiencies and provide attendant economic simuli. and taxes i do pay, believe me. the ferry doesn't cut it."

Pretty typical faux-liberal bs. You are happy paying taxes but not when it doesn't benefit you. Again, the fact (precious few of those in this discussion, sadly) that they had MORE THAN 2X ridership in the first year seems to mean nothing to you.

"it's less then 2K daily riders if it were to run on weekdays only. my guess that it runs on weekends"

Love that you're throwing around ridership numbers but don't even know how often the ferry runs. Good stuff. You guys sure love complainin', huh?

Ward, as usual, is spot on about this non-story:
http://brooklyn11211.com/2012/09/lonely-seas/

I commute via the ERF every day to and from work. There are many many more than a dozen people on it each way, I wonder where they got that info? Agreed that if you don't live and work near the stops, there is little reason to use it, but that thing has seriously changed my life. I can't imagine going back to the subway. My intent was just to use it last year when it was free, but after knowing how awesome it was and is, going back underground to the subway on overcrowded lines seems impossible. I mean seriously I love that so much I feel like I could never leave my job or move.

Bigger picture though you need to increase public transport between Mnahattan and Brooklyn. Already the L runs every three minutes and it is jammed, sometimes you can't get on in the morning. So you need to increase capacity somehow and this will help lessen the burden. But still not convenient for the vast majority of people. Great if you work at UN, not great if you work in Times Square.

Here's one. Fill in the East River.

"not me, or you, for that matter: " M A N Y ""
"i certainly dont approve of the 9mm$ wasted subsidizing this ferry which services a few "dozen" commuters"

Troll, I love your new math: 1m+ = "a few dozen"

"used to be FREE on weekends"
Wrong - it was free for the first 2 weeks of service every day. No free weekend specials or whatever you're imagining. You really are impressively bad at this. And a misogynist, closeted conservative to boot.

"certainly property owners and developers nearby the stops think so."

Why just property owners? Do you think they don't allow renters on board? Idiotic.

We certainly could use other forms of transport. Ferry is a logical way to do it. But the numbers need to increase. Hopefully they don't tank for the winter.

so there are less than 2000 people using this ferry doing round trips in an city with over 8 million. why do 8 million people need to subsidize the few yuppies who want to live in neighborhoods that did not really exist 10 yrs ago?

i live a few blocks from the water and would love to take the ferry to work. it will be more pleasant and most likely faster. i'm close enough to the east side drop off point to make it a very convenient source of transport. does that mean that i should insist that thousands of dollars are to be spend on my individual commute?

NO. that's why i take the train that has more people in all of it's cars than the total ridership for the day on this subsidized ferry. i still don't understand why SI Ferry is free. you were dumb enough to by a house on a garbage dump for a discount, you should pay for getting to work like the rest of us.

Well L goes to more than Bburg, but sure can't speak to the other trains...

And they could do a lot more to promote it. I've been by water and tried to get info and it is not the best. They should make it free on Sundays to haul over people to the flea market. Right now there seems to be a dedicated core that use it daily, but that seems to be it.

ab_11218, all due respect, but what the hell are you talking about? 2000 people? Neighborhoods that didn't exist 10 years ago (how does that even matter, even if it were accurate)? This city's waterfront (and last I checked, there's a lot of it) is WOEFULLY under-utilized. The bigger picture here is this is a great first step towards fixing that. If you're going to complain about taxpayer money being mis-allocated, you should probably also realize that $9M is a relative drop in the bucket when you're talking about a ~$70B budget (yes, that works out to 0.01%).

And yes, the SI ferry shouldn't be free - curious why the moaners on this thread don't even mention that. But all public transportation should be (and is) subsidized to some degree.

1 mil / 265 days / 2 trips per day = < 2000

if we were to subsidize our trains to such degree, i would be sitting on leather seats and have my shoes shined once a week while riding ;)

ab, do you know how heavily subsidized the MTA is? If you've been on the Tube in London, you quickly realize that this thing ain't cheap. Can't even imagine how high that cost is for suburbanites commuting into the city every day.

Junk the bridges, the tunnels. Fill_in the E. River. Hudson too, while you're at it.

Is 9 million really a lot to the NYC budget? My daily commute has me cursing and on the verge of road rage every morning as the countless EMPTY buses and EMPTY access a ride vans are queuing up for the tunnel. All these vehicles taking up space away from PAYING customers to access the tunnel. They shouldnt be empty, but if they're needed for alignement in another borough, how about a bridge?

Im not against rides for handicapped people but it doesnt take rocket science to see this program is greatly abused and misused.
Oh and this program costs $500 million a year!

if my daily train commute costs the city $9M per year and there are trains every 6 minutes during rush hour, the city would be bankrupt as i'm talking about 1 line and we have over a dozen. it would be billions per day.

If you don't believe me;
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/business/ticket_ride_779Ns6Xt1bdhjWitcN1fjP

And still no explanations on the empties. I promise if any of you would indulge and stand on the corner of the 35th st tunnel approach, just 15 minutes during morining rush hours, I promise you will see a minimum 5 access a ride vans and ALL of them will be empty. I cant see any reason for not having a simple dispatch system having a certain number of vans in each borough and at least cutting empties to 50% instead of 95%. It must afford a way to pad billing to the MTA.

I look inside when and if I can each van and without exagerration maybe 5 vans a YEAR have someone in it.

I think the SI ferry should be free... in the same way the subway should be free. Whatever the cost, I think it is a positive revenue generator in the big picture for NYC. If everybody drove, we'd be throttled. We couldn't get this many people to work in Manhattan. Public transit gets tons of us where we need to go, and building businesses and generating revenue for the city. Some subsidy to other ferries, but they should not be free (unlike the SI ferry, which you generally need to connect to some other form of transit, sometimes on both sides).

Charge the cars more, there should be tolls on everything, hell, even congestion pricing. This isn't a "fairness" issue, this is about promoting what helps everyone.

Everyone usually defends or promotes what benefits themselves some way.
My disdain for the empty buses and access a ride vans stems from my slowed commute out of the city.
Just today, and usually once a week, traffic is bad enough for the approach that I hightail it down the fdr to the Willie B. 2 miles and 15 minutes out of my way, aside from the extra pollution I cause, the city loses 6 bucks from my toll.
I consider myself a wet dream for NYC. I reside in manhattan, pay enough tax to qualify for AMT, I help keep a parking lot full overnight and remove my car from the city every weekday 9 to 7pm. As a Sub-S corporation business owner, NYC benefits from my out of city business profits.

There was a time when no matter what I wouldnt leave the city but many elements are making the choice one to consider. Congestion pricing and tolls on everything most certainly would chase me away.

And surprised there are no comments on the access a ride program. Did nobody read it?
"As The Post recently reported, the MTA has a potential $383 million budget gap in 2012 that it is trying to close through service cutbacks, possible fare hikes and concessions from its employees."

AB_11218
What do you think would bankrupt the city faster, the $9 million water taxi or the $442 million access a ride?

Exit 49.
And yes Ive tried the railroad.
Its every bit the pain in the A.
Particularly the inbetween station and office part.

"I think the SI ferry should be free... in the same way the subway should be free. Whatever the cost, I think it is a positive revenue generator in the big picture for NYC."

Totally agree with the sentiment there. Make all public transportation free or don't subsidize it at all. These in-between solutions never work long-term if you want something sustainable, and transportation throughout the city is too important to make it so wishy-washy every year.

"And surprised there are no comments on the access a ride program. Did nobody read it?"
truthskr, bingo. What you're seeing here is more trolling than real concern - it's a $3m per year subsidy for 3 years. That works out to 0.004% of the budget for this year. And yet bottoms is up in arms about this and slobbering everywhere. Hilarious.

"Subway has never been free and has always been subsidized. Exactly why is that unsustainable?"

Maybe you've forgotten about MTA strikes and fare hikes (there's a poem in there somewhere).

I built this.

truthskr, strange that the whiners have nothing to say when you bring up a very valid concern about much larger expenditures, huh?

"Did anyone sort out if the deficit is 9mm over 3 years, or 9mm per year for 3 years? Whatever, either way, with gross receipts of appx 4mm per year, the thing is clearly a fail in progress."

I LOVE that you have such a strong opinion about this, but can't be bothered to look up a simple fact that takes about 15 seconds to Google and confirm. It's $9m over 3 years, so $3m/year. A minuscule fraction of the city's budget. Additionally, if you think this thing is a fail because it can't pay for itself, I'd love to see you produce the numbers on the MTA. I'm guessing your gross receipts figure is a back-of-the-envelope calc, but it's for the first year of this thing - it'll likely grow. Sorry you hate it so much. But you love whining, so not surprising really...

bjw, how about answering why my commute is not subsidized nearly as much as yours?

i agree that Access-A-Ride is a huge waste of money. if they were to give the $$ for taxis, they would save a fortune. unfortunately, we live in a society where the gov't wants to provide access for all and that means that they need to waste everyone's money to help the very few.

one of my old neighbors told me how she was driven from washington heights to brooklyn. WH to bronx to pick up others, to queens to pick up more, back to bronx to drop the ones from queens off. to queens to pick up others, to manhattan to drop some off and finally to brooklyn. approx 2 1/2 hrs. efficiency.

she also said that the van, on another occasion, waited for her accross the street. given that there are 8 lanes, 4 in each direction, how the hell was she suppose to see, let alone know, that the van was for her?

bottoms, that little diatribe did nothing to dispel the fairly transparent notion that you only "like" paying taxes on things that benefit you directly. Otherwise, don't get why you're wasting so much time complaining about this here (not even counting the previous thread on the ferry). Seriously, what would you suggest? Getting rid of it entirely? I will never understand people in favor of LESS public transportation. But hey, you're just a moronic troll anyway..

"bjw, how about answering why my commute is not subsidized nearly as much as yours?"

ab, I would, but your question was not worded very well:

"if my daily train commute costs the city $9M per year and there are trains every 6 minutes during rush hour, the city would be bankrupt as i'm talking about 1 line and we have over a dozen. it would be billions per day."

If your daily commute costs the city $9M per year, how would it cost billions per day???

And for the record, I do not use the ferry for my daily commute (I used to when I worked close to Pier 11). I just think it's great and I know plenty of people who love it - would be a shame to lose it, and only a particularly ignorant troll seems to favor that option.

PS - the MTA runs at a loss of over $7B before subsidies. And a loss of $4B afterwards.

My mistake, hburg. Let me correct myself: only two particularly ignorant trolls seem to favor that option.

PS - luxury, schluxury. Once upon a time, I'm sure people said the same about the subway. The ferry is worth it for the relief on other lines and the added attention to the waterfront it provides alone.

I'll say this, bottoms. You're really good at whining. And making sh!t up. Oh, and being a misogynist!

Fine, hburg - we won't agree on this tragically wasteful use of 0.004% of the budget. No biggie.

"i love the ferry. it is the only way I like to visit my friends in Brooklyn. I also love the shuttle and wonder why more people don't hop on the connect to some stops without paying bus fare. I find it beautiful, peaceful and if I had to take that damned overcrowded train every time I had to go to brooklyn, I would rebel against the system. Long live the ferry."

That quote sounds so odd and generic that it's likely another apt23 made up thought. . The east river ferry actually reaches only a small portion of brooklyn, so either apt23 is exagerating or lying as usual, or only has friends that live close to the the river. Or she has the unusual habit of taking the east river ferry to visit friends in park slope ! The reference to the "damn overcrowded train" is odd since most complaints on this board cite which line. Good chance she's never even been on the Ferry.

Has apt23 explained why her repeated predictions of market chaos and 500psf hasn't come true?

I live in DUMBO so I love the ferry. It takes me directly to my work place on E. 34st street. I don't care if its subsidized by the city and only services a few. I pay enough damn taxes.

"elsewhere--i like what i hear--sorta progressive, frankly--could you be a faux-liberal?? i don't think so"

Economically, not really. It isn't the subsidy I care about, it is about using the free market with incentives for the results you want. It is the bridge toll theory from Micro 101. Everybody taking the train does everybody better.

I like letting $$$ be the decider.

(and, I actually don't take the train that much, I walk most places, with cabs). I just think the more people take the train, the better we are all off.

I love congestion pricing, where the people who get the most value from the trip should be the ones willing to pay for it. The guy who has all the time in the world and will sit in traffic for two hours to not sit on a subway - but his time isn't worth $5 - yeah, I'd rather disincent him. Again, better result for the masses, as the people who have somewhere to go that is worth something get there faster. Even if it is just trucks making deliveries (bringing down food costs, no?)

People trying to explain the case of the poor person that "has to" drive in. Well, the majority of the city takes public transportation into Manhattan, they probably can too... and it *should* be the cheaper option. And if they have to drive, but they are paid so little to afford to toll, is that really the type of thing we should be incenting? Some folks will get hurt, but lots of folks will benefit. City as a whole, big economic benefit.

With you 80% of the way.

If you need to shlep equipment around the city for your job, then I think $10 or whatever (less than the Verazano) is a more than fair price to pay for it. In the end, if this is equipment that needs a vehicle, then you *should* be paying extra.... you are the one pulling up, loading, unloading, blocking sidewalks, bike lanes, etc. This would also incent shared trips/resources (like how one van delivers multiple vendor carts around the city). I consider this all a good thing in terms of incentives.

If your point is local folks should get preference. I'm not against it, given that you are already here and costing us less. We just have a moronic tolls system that has to be dealt wit. In an ideal world, it should be coordinated. I'm all for one level for folks already on the island, another for folks crossing bridges from other boroughs, another for folks coming from out of state. Hell, coordinate the parking too. In the end, just charging fairer rates on parking combined with proper tolls might be enough (proper = if people have to look for 30 minutes to find parking, the rates aren't high enough).

That being said, I am against cheaper parking for locals, especially neighborhood permit parking. Why incent folks to keep a car locally? Why is your car in your neighborhood a bigger benefit to us all, then my car when I drive there to do business. In the end, if you take up the resource, pay for it. The only reason I give local lesser charge is because they aren't going as far, crossing bridges, etc. (and their taxes already pay for it if in city). But the world should not be subsidizing you to park near your house.

In the end, just putting tolls on the free bridges would do a lot of the trick, but Shelley the moron somehow thinks it makes more sense for the bridges to be CHEAPER than the subway.