Lessons learnt: First time home buyer with gut reno I have learnt a lot from SE so wanted to share some of my experiences as a first time 3BR, 3BA NYC condo home buyer. We almost did gut renovations. Please be gentle as its my first post (just wanna help first time buyers/reno projects) a) Check with an architect whether your reno project will need NYC DOB filing. Get 3 estimates. We did not use... [more]
Lessons learnt: First time home buyer with gut reno
I have learnt a lot from SE so wanted to share some of my experiences as a first time 3BR, 3BA NYC condo home buyer. We almost did gut renovations. Please be gentle as its my first post (just wanna help first time buyers/reno projects)
a) Check with an architect whether your reno project will need NYC DOB filing. Get 3 estimates. We did not use an interior designer. We used architect/expeditor only for NYC DOB drawing, filings, and project closing with NYC DOB.
b) Interviewed 4 GCs and asked for detailed line item quotes. Our process of selection (or elimination): did not hire GC who did not give detailed line item quote, response time was more than 2 days without any acknowledgement to our questions. Time is of the essence in a reno project…
c) Make sure GC meets with the building super. Getting building approval before starting any work.
d) Confirm with GC, who will pull GC and plumbing permits, who pays for pulling permits and does the quote include these costs. REMEMBER: if you pull plumbing permit for the reno, the plumber will have to certify and close it at the end of the reno in order for the architect/expeditor to close the project with NYC DOB so DO NOT give final payment till this is done (even if all reno work as part of the job order is complete).
e) When a GC gives a quote for a particular job eg painting or hardwood floors etc, the overall bill has an additional 10-25% profit/overhead charge AND 10-25% General Conditions. Its almost always listed as part of the quote.
f) Be very explicit and list all the things that the GC promises to do AND ask him what is NOT included in the respective project. Eg: If gut reno of the bathroom is involved, ask him what ALL work/labor will be done by him, what material/fixtures will he provide (sheetrock, paint, primer etc), what material/fixtures does he expect the client to provide (toilet, shower enclosures, shower heads), fixtures/accessories provided by client to be installed by GC. Anything that you do not discuss or list gives the GC an opportunity to “ask for more money” later.
g) Once you have a GC and his crew in the house, your bargaining power decreases relatively. Its quite hard to fire him and hire a new GC as it will result in loss of time and resources (revising permits etc). You will feel kinda helpless and stuck and “just want to get done with the reno”.
h) Come up with an end date for the project +/- 2 weeks. Some sort of penalty for GC for gross delays.
i) If you are getting electric work done or redoing the lights in the house, have a good sense of where and how many lights do you want. Our GC started asking asking us for additional $$ for each new light point (sconce outlet on the wall)
j) Ask GC for project timeline (along with order/sequence of reno steps) and payment schedule tied to completion of specific milestones.
k) Unless you have loads of money to hire people to do all the work for you, eg designers, full time architect etc, it will be a very time consuming and tedious project for home owner.
PS: Sorry for the long post. This has become longer than I had anticipated so I will stop here. I am happy to answer questions rather than rambling on….
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Response by abc71
almost 12 years ago
Posts: 40
Member since: Aug 2009
What is the sf of your apt, what did you get done in your new home, and what was the cost of the winning estimate?
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Response by ungdoo
almost 12 years ago
Posts: 7
Member since: Oct 2008
Were you happy with your GC?
Would you recommend him to others?
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Response by svroad
almost 12 years ago
Posts: 23
Member since: May 2012
abc71: Approx 1700 sq ft, we got everything done, bathrooms, kitchen, floors, doors, some wall changes, painting
ungdoo: I would rate my GC as 3/5
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Response by yikes
almost 12 years ago
Posts: 1016
Member since: Mar 2012
agreed--good stuff--thx
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Response by REMom
almost 12 years ago
Posts: 307
Member since: Apr 2009
How long did it take and how much did it cost vs the estimated time and cost when you started?
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Response by svroad
almost 12 years ago
Posts: 23
Member since: May 2012
It took 3.5 months (estimated 3 months). Budget creep was = 10%
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Response by Propinquity
almost 12 years ago
Posts: 92
Member since: Feb 2012
Thanks for giving us the scoop. Would you reveal any sources? Like:
1. Where did you buy your tiles?
2. Appliances?
3. Faucets/fixtures?
And what did you expect would be easy in all this that turned out to be hard and what did you expect to be difficult that wasn't at all?
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Response by ungdoo
almost 12 years ago
Posts: 7
Member since: Oct 2008
Great info. Thanks.
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Response by JButton
almost 12 years ago
Posts: 447
Member since: Sep 2011
so what was the cost of your gut per square foot?
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Response by Aael921
almost 12 years ago
Posts: 131
Member since: Jan 2013
Svroad, It sounds like you fared well to me. We are nearing the end of a gut reno on a 1350 sq ft unit (3 bed/2 bath), and we're approaching five months with budget creep of a bit over 10%. I would add to your point on DOB to expect delays, even with an "Expeditor," and have an open-ended alternative living arrangement. I found our architect helpful throughout, acting as somewhat of an intermediary with the GC and a check on prices from other providers.
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Response by vslse65
almost 12 years ago
Posts: 226
Member since: Feb 2011
Apologies if I sound harsh, but I read your entire post and I shake my head every time I see posts like this. So please don't take this the wrong way & it's probably because it was your first reno like this in NYC.
BUT...
3.5 wks vs 3 wks, 10% budget creep, complaining GC charged you for items that were not included in quote (AND their profit margin?). You didn't hire an ID, so who did the work? I'm guessing there was input from the GC. Even little things like where fixtures could/could not go, outlet positioning, etc... this all takes TIME. Do you work for free or buy materials for free?
Maybe something(s) happened between you and this GC, but for a 3BR 3BA near gut reno in NYC, it sounds likes you had a GREAT GC. Yet you only rated them a 3/5...
Please share the name, for I would use them in a HEARTBEAT.
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Response by aalsberg
almost 12 years ago
Posts: 99
Member since: Mar 2011
10% budget creep is really very little I would say the average creep is around 15-20%
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Response by huntersburg
almost 12 years ago
Posts: 11329
Member since: Nov 2010
creep is highest in C0lumbia C0unty and in 0ttawa, Canada
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Response by svroad
almost 12 years ago
Posts: 23
Member since: May 2012
The intention of this post is not to complain about my GC. I have just laid down the facts of our reno.
The 12 % budget creep was on a six-figure ONLY LABOR costs. Materials etc was separate.
We managed to get special permission from the building so that work could be done on Saturdays too. Factoring that in, it actually took a little over 4 months vs 3 months. Not the end of the world but still a 30% project timeline extension....
@vslse65: The 3/5 rating is based on our overall experience over 4 months so its hard to explain all of it here. But to lay down a few egs:
a) After the project was deemed completed, when we did a walk through the newly renovated bathroom, I noticed that there was no vent. Its regulation to have a vent in a bathroom. I had to bring this to the GC's attention and so they cut out a vent in newly installed tiles in a finished bathroom as an after-thought...
b) The smoke and fire alarm was removed during demo. During the post completion walk through, I had to point out that the detectors were missing (not a single one re-installed in a 1700 sq ft apt). Till date it has not been installed (despite being promised that it will be installed). This is a disregard for regulation and safety and I am sure that anyone with a family with kids with agree with me
Does a GC claiming years and years of experience have to be reminded of such important aspects of renovation?
Again, my initial post was not about listing GC mistakes but folks wanted to know why I rated the GC 3/5 hence a few egs.
My goal is to help people who have questions related to reno projects and not complain about the GC. No one is perfect and you learn to make things work.
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Response by falcogold1
almost 12 years ago
Posts: 4159
Member since: Sep 2008
most valuable post I've seen in ages
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Response by pier45
almost 12 years ago
Posts: 379
Member since: May 2009
svroad, the group can complain at each other about what they think but everyone going into this situation benefits by sharing your experience. Thanks!
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Response by vslse65
almost 12 years ago
Posts: 226
Member since: Feb 2011
svroad,
It's tough to describe an entire gut reno in a few paragraphs. I only commented because your 3/5 rating didn't add up. I have no skin in this, but sick of people bashing on service providers. Most of the time, the vendor sounds like the devil and the client is never wrong. With the info you added, I can sympathize, but there are always 2 sides to a story. If the GC was here, he/she might have a few things to say about you as a client (maybe not, I don't know).
In the end, I hope you're relatively satisfied and congrats on your new home.
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Response by svroad
almost 12 years ago
Posts: 23
Member since: May 2012
@ Propinquity,
we got our tiles from Nemo Tiles in NYC,
Kitchen appliances from Paul's Appliances in NJ http://www.paulshomeappliances.com/ Bathroom fixtures and hardware was bought online vendors such as from build.com etc
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Response by REML
almost 12 years ago
Posts: 0
Member since: Feb 2014
Great details and info. Thank you for sharing! However, I do agree that the GC may have deserved a little higher rating than a 3 of 5.
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Response by BonacStyle
almost 12 years ago
Posts: 28
Member since: Nov 2009
SVROAD. Sounds like you had done some homework prior to renovating. Did the GC value engineer his bid ?
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Response by sp21
almost 12 years ago
Posts: 99
Member since: Feb 2013
Actually it sounds like this person did a lot of research (including on this site). There are certain things that you don't learn unless you have first hand experience with something. Everyone knows that things not included in the original proposal will cost money, but it takes experience to know how important it is to plan every single outlet and light fixture unless you want to pay to do it later. It seems like a lot of comments on this thread are about the OP's rating of his GC as 3/5. The GC seems like he did a good job. But when you finish a project, pay $100K or more, and they are cutting a hole in your completed bathroom tile to make a vent.... how can you not feel frustrated? When your project is completed and the GC does not replace the fire alarms in your apartment, after you have paid a huge sum of money, it's natural to feel frustrated and maybe even disrespected. Of course you want the walls and basic plumbing to be done correctly, but after a huge renovation (especially one where the owner has basically taken on a part time job of planning things), it is not ideal if the GC lacks attention to detail and is fixing completed parts of the project such as the tile. Just my thoughts
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Response by svroad
almost 12 years ago
Posts: 23
Member since: May 2012
@BonacStyle: I am not sure I understand your question.
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Response by laffeyfinehomes
almost 12 years ago
Posts: 1
Member since: Nov 2013
The key is to research before buying a property. Know as much information and all the steps involved. Do not just listen to what you hear but seek advice from friends and family who may have gone through the same process. The savings you will get would mean a difference and you will have much more control over the sale.
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Response by Aael921
almost 12 years ago
Posts: 131
Member since: Jan 2013
I posted above re 3 bed/2 bath gut reno. We're now past six months and counting (though, I THINK, just about finished). What amazes me most about the original post upon re-reading it is that svroad was able to have word done on Saturdays. Between the complaining neighbors and the board, this would never fly in my building. Perhaps it's a condo/coop thing, but good for you. That saves $ for everyone involved, particularly if you are renting in the meantime.
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Response by svroad
almost 12 years ago
Posts: 23
Member since: May 2012
@ Aael921, Yes ours is a condo and a very cooperative building management team. Of course the understanding was that it would be "non-noisy" work on Saturdays but still a lot could be done (wall prep, pre-painting, painting, tiling, installing fixtures/accessories, closets etc). We had notified our immediate neighbors on the same floor, one floor above and below of the same, either personally or slipping a flyer under their door. Yes we were renting in the meantime so time was of the essence.
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Response by chen99
over 11 years ago
Posts: 17
Member since: Oct 2013
one of the best posts. Thank you svrod
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Response by polarmusic
over 11 years ago
Posts: 3
Member since: Jul 2012
Can you say why you chose Paul's for the appliances? I know the shop, family lives in Newark, and looking at a possible reno on the UWS and didnt consider Paul's. competitive pricing? package deals?
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What is the sf of your apt, what did you get done in your new home, and what was the cost of the winning estimate?
Were you happy with your GC?
Would you recommend him to others?
abc71: Approx 1700 sq ft, we got everything done, bathrooms, kitchen, floors, doors, some wall changes, painting
ungdoo: I would rate my GC as 3/5
agreed--good stuff--thx
How long did it take and how much did it cost vs the estimated time and cost when you started?
It took 3.5 months (estimated 3 months). Budget creep was = 10%
Thanks for giving us the scoop. Would you reveal any sources? Like:
1. Where did you buy your tiles?
2. Appliances?
3. Faucets/fixtures?
And what did you expect would be easy in all this that turned out to be hard and what did you expect to be difficult that wasn't at all?
Great info. Thanks.
so what was the cost of your gut per square foot?
Svroad, It sounds like you fared well to me. We are nearing the end of a gut reno on a 1350 sq ft unit (3 bed/2 bath), and we're approaching five months with budget creep of a bit over 10%. I would add to your point on DOB to expect delays, even with an "Expeditor," and have an open-ended alternative living arrangement. I found our architect helpful throughout, acting as somewhat of an intermediary with the GC and a check on prices from other providers.
Apologies if I sound harsh, but I read your entire post and I shake my head every time I see posts like this. So please don't take this the wrong way & it's probably because it was your first reno like this in NYC.
BUT...
3.5 wks vs 3 wks, 10% budget creep, complaining GC charged you for items that were not included in quote (AND their profit margin?). You didn't hire an ID, so who did the work? I'm guessing there was input from the GC. Even little things like where fixtures could/could not go, outlet positioning, etc... this all takes TIME. Do you work for free or buy materials for free?
Maybe something(s) happened between you and this GC, but for a 3BR 3BA near gut reno in NYC, it sounds likes you had a GREAT GC. Yet you only rated them a 3/5...
Please share the name, for I would use them in a HEARTBEAT.
10% budget creep is really very little I would say the average creep is around 15-20%
creep is highest in C0lumbia C0unty and in 0ttawa, Canada
The intention of this post is not to complain about my GC. I have just laid down the facts of our reno.
The 12 % budget creep was on a six-figure ONLY LABOR costs. Materials etc was separate.
We managed to get special permission from the building so that work could be done on Saturdays too. Factoring that in, it actually took a little over 4 months vs 3 months. Not the end of the world but still a 30% project timeline extension....
@vslse65: The 3/5 rating is based on our overall experience over 4 months so its hard to explain all of it here. But to lay down a few egs:
a) After the project was deemed completed, when we did a walk through the newly renovated bathroom, I noticed that there was no vent. Its regulation to have a vent in a bathroom. I had to bring this to the GC's attention and so they cut out a vent in newly installed tiles in a finished bathroom as an after-thought...
b) The smoke and fire alarm was removed during demo. During the post completion walk through, I had to point out that the detectors were missing (not a single one re-installed in a 1700 sq ft apt). Till date it has not been installed (despite being promised that it will be installed). This is a disregard for regulation and safety and I am sure that anyone with a family with kids with agree with me
Does a GC claiming years and years of experience have to be reminded of such important aspects of renovation?
Again, my initial post was not about listing GC mistakes but folks wanted to know why I rated the GC 3/5 hence a few egs.
My goal is to help people who have questions related to reno projects and not complain about the GC. No one is perfect and you learn to make things work.
most valuable post I've seen in ages
svroad, the group can complain at each other about what they think but everyone going into this situation benefits by sharing your experience. Thanks!
svroad,
It's tough to describe an entire gut reno in a few paragraphs. I only commented because your 3/5 rating didn't add up. I have no skin in this, but sick of people bashing on service providers. Most of the time, the vendor sounds like the devil and the client is never wrong. With the info you added, I can sympathize, but there are always 2 sides to a story. If the GC was here, he/she might have a few things to say about you as a client (maybe not, I don't know).
In the end, I hope you're relatively satisfied and congrats on your new home.
@ Propinquity,
we got our tiles from Nemo Tiles in NYC,
Kitchen appliances from Paul's Appliances in NJ http://www.paulshomeappliances.com/
Bathroom fixtures and hardware was bought online vendors such as from build.com etc
Great details and info. Thank you for sharing! However, I do agree that the GC may have deserved a little higher rating than a 3 of 5.
SVROAD. Sounds like you had done some homework prior to renovating. Did the GC value engineer his bid ?
Actually it sounds like this person did a lot of research (including on this site). There are certain things that you don't learn unless you have first hand experience with something. Everyone knows that things not included in the original proposal will cost money, but it takes experience to know how important it is to plan every single outlet and light fixture unless you want to pay to do it later. It seems like a lot of comments on this thread are about the OP's rating of his GC as 3/5. The GC seems like he did a good job. But when you finish a project, pay $100K or more, and they are cutting a hole in your completed bathroom tile to make a vent.... how can you not feel frustrated? When your project is completed and the GC does not replace the fire alarms in your apartment, after you have paid a huge sum of money, it's natural to feel frustrated and maybe even disrespected. Of course you want the walls and basic plumbing to be done correctly, but after a huge renovation (especially one where the owner has basically taken on a part time job of planning things), it is not ideal if the GC lacks attention to detail and is fixing completed parts of the project such as the tile. Just my thoughts
@BonacStyle: I am not sure I understand your question.
The key is to research before buying a property. Know as much information and all the steps involved. Do not just listen to what you hear but seek advice from friends and family who may have gone through the same process. The savings you will get would mean a difference and you will have much more control over the sale.
I posted above re 3 bed/2 bath gut reno. We're now past six months and counting (though, I THINK, just about finished). What amazes me most about the original post upon re-reading it is that svroad was able to have word done on Saturdays. Between the complaining neighbors and the board, this would never fly in my building. Perhaps it's a condo/coop thing, but good for you. That saves $ for everyone involved, particularly if you are renting in the meantime.
@ Aael921, Yes ours is a condo and a very cooperative building management team. Of course the understanding was that it would be "non-noisy" work on Saturdays but still a lot could be done (wall prep, pre-painting, painting, tiling, installing fixtures/accessories, closets etc). We had notified our immediate neighbors on the same floor, one floor above and below of the same, either personally or slipping a flyer under their door. Yes we were renting in the meantime so time was of the essence.
one of the best posts. Thank you svrod
Can you say why you chose Paul's for the appliances? I know the shop, family lives in Newark, and looking at a possible reno on the UWS and didnt consider Paul's. competitive pricing? package deals?