Nearly half of US households do pay fed income tax

Title should read "Nearly half of US households do NOT pay fed income tax"

i guess that makes it great to be in the bottom 40%.

really, it's not that surprising, given that the distribution of wealth has become so increasingly skewed. as more wealth is concentrated at the top, you'd expect such numbers in a progressive tax system. and given that almost 20% of the country is un or underemployed, i'm surprised the number isn't higher.

There should be no way that people actually be a net profit. That is crazy. Deductions/exemptions etc to not have to pay any tax is borderline but to actually make money is disgusting.

http://content.usatoday.com/community/comments.aspx?id=38135270.story&p=4#uslPageReturn

interesting comments

The good news is that the lower-income people spend money that goes, to a much larger degree, right back into the domestic economy. Top ten percent, not so much.

That is good news.

I'm neither here nor there.

But let me add in all the equations ppl bandy about, itz usually net zero cost to govern equation. Let me explain.

If you take a $10 trillion fed fiscal budget and assign 0 value to 'govt' then you get these crazy wealth transfers. if you value 'govt'' at a high perceived value then there isn't as much wealth transfer as you'd like to point out. Point 2, if canada took us over and made us all make pancakes as slaves, the richest 10% of the US has alot alot more to lose than ppl already at the bottom half is the US flipping burgers for the top 10% of the US.

It is also my observation that the bottom half of the population engages in much more dangerous jobs, higher murder rate, cancer rate, etc etc. Maybe the high top 10% taxes keep the system as it is. :) just food for thought.

"really, it's not that surprising, given that the distribution of wealth has become so increasingly skewed"

herein lies the fundamental problem with that line of thinking, that gvmt should be the arbiter of the "distribution" of monies to its citizens. w67 i will take the under any day of the week on valuing the gvmt at closer to 0. rather let the private sector assign that value.

Seems no one's read the comments. I think this is a good point:

"jaziggy (0 friends, send message) wrote: 42m ago
Here's an insidious thought. We are creating a majority voting block of people with no skin in the game. Pretty soon those who don't pay taxes will have the majority in elections. If and when that happens, it is over."

To have close to 50% of the population with "no skin in the game" is not a good thing.

I don't agree with policies that allow that large a % to not pay taxes but I accept it. I can't accept the fact that in addition to not paying taxes, there are people that actually receive money back.

You peopel are such idiots. Do you know why onyl half of Amerians pay taxes? Because only half of Americans work! The last time I checked 9 year olds and 99 year olds are not working.

President, are you actually serious? Please go back to sleep.

el presidente... Lets just take the wealth of the "rich". There must be shared sacrifice.

NO, NO ... the rich should be exempt from taxation ... they're demigods. Just force the lower-middle-classes to work more jobs and pay more more more taxes. They can live on ramen, can't they?

So how many people are employed in the U.S.? Not the percentage, but the actual number.

alanhart.. The lower-middle-classes really should step it up and start paying their fair share.

alan let me give you a scenario a la w67th - woke up this morning to head to the subway so i could continue to make ends meet in my "rich" paying job. as i tried to cross the street i nearly flopped into a gaping hole that has been under construction for the past 8 mos that was no doubt one of those "shovel ready" stimilus projects that amounts to digging holes in the ground in nyc and hopefully one day actually filling them up so i can make it to the subway without taking a 3 block detour. as i was dodging the holes in the street i looked up and noticed the same amount of progress at ground zero due to political graft/corruption and union demands sucking every last dollar from nyc taxpayers. ooops, there went my suit jacket. continuing on, i passed the revered downtown offices of DC 37 - thank god for the unions in nyc because without them we no doubt would be paying all these folks less then minimum wages but ironically, most of the union officials now have city and state gvmt in their pockets and have dictated fiscal policies that will head us into disaster - whoops, there go the suit pants. running down the stairs of the subway, i barely made it thru with metrocard in hand before another fare shakedown due to the oversized union contracts and wage increases and total mismanagement at the mta - ooops there goes my shirt. arriving at my stop, i rushed by one of the "rubber rooms" of the UFT ilk (whose main goal in life is dedicated to the education of our most precious resources) and yep, lost the pants. finally, making it to work in my thong i turned on my pc to see our esteemed leaders in albany raising the budget by 9% in the worst economic times of this generation. whew, glad i make enough to keep my thong on for the ride home.

rangersfan The state and federal workers really deserve those $200000 pensions after 20 long hard years of work. Please don't complain; you should feel lucky to have that high paying job that society allows you to have,,, Right alan?

*Street construction: "privatization" hard at work.

*Six Flags Ground Zero: Big Insurance abuses legal system.

*DC37: 125,000 low-paid employees in a city of 8+ million people ... inconsequential.

*MTA: inefficient quasi-governmental "authority" instead of governmental agency ... no surprise that they're corrupt and incompetent ... but at least they make the trains run on time.

*Rubber Room: who's disciplining the DOE management that tries to boot teachers for petty little political reasons? I have yet to hear of a teacher in purgatory who was accused of being a bad teacher; it's always peripheral Tiger Woods-y stuff.

*Your suit: I bet it was a badly-cut peaked-lapel number, pro-forma business attire from Brooqueens, with a criminally ugly tie. Society is better without it.

points a-e, pretty weak. you can do better. suit - custom made in HK - half the price for custom made suits here, better tailored, better materials. (no unions) ;)

good one, ranger :)

"I can't accept the fact that in addition to not paying taxes, there are people that actually receive money back."
Exactly. OK, they don't make enuff $ to pay income tax, but to pay nothing AND receive $!! WTF!? It's simply wrong.

Nearly 50% of population paying no income tax (yet rcving $ back), free health care, gov bail outs of banks & businesses (none of which we can afford) & now the VAT: this is socialism, yup, we're there. And it's been done at lighting speed whether ya like it or not.

You read these amazing, entitlement-for-not-working comments by alanhart and aboutready and no wonder we are having all these problems. With that mindset, we will have the European long-term malaise and economic lethargy in no time. These people love going through contortions to defend hand-outs and soaking those who work the hardest and produce the most.

alan, I agree with you in theory, but care to explain how Ground Zero is due to "Big Insurance abuses legal system." Silverstein is the one abusing the legal system.

Dwell, do you honestly think this is anything new? LTCM anyone? socialism for corporations has been gaining momentum for thirty years. the safety net for the poor has been shrinking. think about it. people are living in poverty. and we hate them for it

>> custom made in HK - half the price for custom made suits here, better tailored, better materials.

Let me guess, you're straight, right? :)

Just a thought, but after the expiration of the bush tax cuts - NYC households who make over $500K will be taxed more than 50% (roughly 3.6% to NYC, NY State 8.97% for those making over 500K and 39.6% Federal). $500K may be some fabulous amount of money in some places, but for a family living in NYC it makes you (maybe) just above middle class -- It makes me wonder if (some) people will move to CT to save that 6% and if it will impact some part of the real estate market here.

Next we will start discussing the national sales tax or VAT.
I used to think that would be horrible.
Now I think it is a good idea. If we need to raise taxes, a regressive tax might not be a bad idea. Let more people have a stake in paying taxes.

"Silverstein is the one abusing the legal system."

How so? For claiming (rightly) that two airplanes targeting two buildings constitute two attacks? For claiming (rightly) that he has the right to rebuild the same square footage that his Port Authority lease was predicated upon?

"With that mindset, we will have the European long-term malaise and economic lethargy in no time."

... you mean like Norway and Belgium and Switzerland, all countries with higher income per capita than the US?

"people are living in poverty. and we hate them for it"
"i fit in as a person in a household which makes a certain amount of money that makes it very cost ineffective for me to work in a traditional sense."

why does someone who makes $500K a year obsess over the fact that some people who make $25K a year don't pay income taxes? aren't you more offended by the fact that someone who makes $1 million a year is in the same marginal tax bracket as you? and...if they're the beneficary of the tax break afforded some people in finance, that they're paying less than 1/2 what you pay?

alan, you really don't know what you are talking about. Switzerland? The whole country has less people than NYC alone, it has one of the most competitively capitalist economies in the world, low tax rates, minimal military costs, and has highly profitable banks due to its bank secrecy laws. Try Greece or Spain, and keep begging for those handouts.

aboutready has this disgusting idea that people who are poor have no responsibility for their situation. Work ethic, ability, life choices have nothing to do with it, so we should give half the country a free ride and handouts. Terrible.

Why would I care that 500K and 1M are marginal tax bracket? Everyone should pay the same % of what they make.

Again, there is no reason to actually give money back to people who don't pay taxes.

cc, because the entire country would be better off and function better if everyone contributed to it financially. Otherwise we get what is happening now, a huge welfare class that manipulates government to suck the country dry.

does anyone even know what this program is or what it intends to do or who expanded it greatly (earned income tax credit, aims to encourage poor people to work for a number of reasons, expanded greatly by Reagan). different studies attribute different costs and benefits to the program, but at least understand what you are talking about. this has been around for decades.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earned_Income_Tax_Credit

"The EITC is the largest poverty reduction program in the United States. Almost 21 million American families received more than $36 billion in refunds through the EITC in 2004. These EITC dollars had a significant impact on the lives and communities of the nation’s lowest paid working people, lifting more than 5 million of these families above the federal poverty line."

I'd rather give a free hand out to the poor than to the bank.

"Dwell, do you honestly think this is anything new? LTCM anyone? socialism for corporations has been gaining momentum for thirty years".

If memory serves me correctly, gvmt had nothing to do with "saving" LTCM, consortium of banks who provided bailout funds.

Skinny - straight as an arrow - need those tax deductions :)

columbia county -- Where in my statement did I say anything about people who don't pay taxes (i.e. 50% of the people in the US). And neither $500K nor $1 Million would make you rich in NYC. I think tax rates should take into account cost of living geography.

I always thought EITC was "free money" added to your tax "refund" when you made under a certain amount and met certain conditions.

ranger, yeah, after the gov't put them in a room and insisted. from ritzholtz's bailout nation, page 72.

"the central bankers jawboned the 14 largest banks-with the notable exception of future bailoutee bear stears-into kicking in $3.65 billion to buy out the assets of LTCM. these included leveraged assets of over $100 billion and derivatives with a notional value of over $1 trillion.

the belief that LTCM has to be bailed out was widely held. it was 1987 redux, and the media accolades poured in. in the aftermath of the LTCM rescue, time put alan greenspan, robert rudin, and larry summers on the cover as "the committee to save the world."

pg. 74

"in sum, long-term capital management was the dress rehearsal for the great credit crisis of 2008-and a missed opportunity to prevent the ongoing tragedy."

the reference to 1987 was of course greenspan's interest rate response to the market.

point is that that to suggest LTCM was bailed out by the gvmt (ie, taxpayers) is simply wrong and untrue.

now, to imply that set the stage for the near-collapse for the financials in 2008 may have some merit. But as I have been suggesting for more than a couple of months now, taxpayers will end up getting a good return on TARP as it relates to bank bailouts and that most of taxpayer money that will end up on the wrong side of the ledger will be borne from the autos and others. and just for the record, i do not work for a bank.

sledge - couldn't agree more

regarding the tax issue: I was reading a link over at theautomaticearth (apologies for the guesstimates, but directionally I will get this right) that 10 - 20 years ago the top 10% of wage earners had 40% of total income / last year the top 10% had 50-60% of all income.

If we continue to trend this kind of trajectory, at what point in the future is this income distribution unsustainable from a social perspective? At what point does this country degenerate into food riots in the street and mobs outside the gated community doors?

I realize that is at an extreme, but doesn't progressive tax rates help to ensure this kind of social breakdown doesn't happen? For those of you wanting a flat tax at a time with (total) unemployment near 20% and prospects for the unemployed dimmer than they have ever been in our lifetimes, be careful of what you wish for. Social unrest could be a lot closer than any of us think. And we are providing perks to banks! How does that look to Joe Six Pack out of work for 9 months?!

Taxes are on income not wealth. We can't have a system that works if people can't become wealthy through hard work, innovation and entrepreneurship without oppressive tax regimes. Otherwise the wealthy would stay wealthy, and there would be nothing to strive for. That is the problem with calls for higher income taxes.

But everyone should have some stake in taxation, that is why I like some form of sales tax instead of more marginal income taxes. If you get everything free, then you value nothing. So even if at the lowest rungs they see that there are taxes that they are accountable for them to some degree, there's more appreciation for the value of a dollar and the value of what is provided by our government. I don't think there should be taxes on vitals, like non-junk food or clothing. But the sugary beverage tax, that is interesting. The only issue is that instituting a national sales tax would have some short-term hit on consumer spending and we just don't need that right now.

There were a few bugs with one of the posts above about taxes at the $1MM level vs at the $500K level. Again, these are taxes on income not wealth. My family's income was at the $500K level last year. But we want to do better. Presumably we have to create value for others in order to do better for ourselves. If taxes at $1MM become that much more onerous, well, maybe there is a point at which it becomes not worth it because we work pretty damn hard for the income we have now. Also, we work for people who make the $1MM and up level. So as their taxes go up, they'll find other ways to keep more on a gross basis and that impacts at our level.

So my points are threefold:
1 - Anyone free riding is a recipe for higher costs within our government. Everyone needs to participate somewhat in the tax system, even if at the bottom end of the ladder the amounts are small. Responsibility!
2 - Income taxes are taxes on income, not wealth. If we want only the current wealthy to stay wealthy and be the only who will ever be wealthy, they we dampen (I don't say destroy) hard work and we really don't solve wealth inequality anyway if that is a goal of some.
3 - Marginal rates should never be confiscatory. Our country is successful because people at all levels strive to do better. Net taxes paid on $1MM at flat marginal rates are already double the net taxes paid on $500K. Making them more than double, because of a higher marginal rate is confiscatory and discourages working harder, discourages at the margins people taking more risky careers and challenges, discourages even students from wanting to do their best and parents from pushing their kids to do better.

the most recent CBO figure i saw raised january's estimated loss from TARP to $109 billion. and didn't indicate, at least that i could see, where that was coming from. it is my understanding that numerous mid-size financial entities took TARP funds and may very well not make the gov't and taxpayer whole.

but that wasn't my point, really. my point is that the corporate world, including the automakers, etc., largely have been led to expect bailouts. i said corporate socialism, not bank socialism, i only used ltcm as one example of such. and i'd bet money that those banks wouldn't have stepped up without coercion from the fed. the fed brokered the deal.

Love logic. Let's see $500k to $1mm bc I can work harder. I don't know what rock you've been living under but as you go up in income levels on average 'hard work' decreases and 'luck of moving chairs' increases. Like a physician choosing to go into internal meds vs specialty field 20 yrs ago when that specialty was out of favor. Take oncology for example, used to be they got paid less bc everyone with cancer died. Now they get a cut of every $10k drug prescribed..... Harder work? Nope.... Just timing baby

Again. The rich are subsidized with fancy sounding things like tax credits, lower financing cost..... The poor get sect 8 vouchers, and food stamps.

One other thing if u think they got it so easy just throttle back on your income.... The lower bracket is there waiting for you anytime, not so much the other way around. Flmao.

Transfer pricing, cayman island, 2nd home boat deduction, professional vacations, tax deductible corporate jets, yearly body scans, etc etc etc. Our rich goodies r so much more fun to fight over,no?

aboutready
about 1 hour ago
ignore this person
report abuse
...
but that wasn't my point, really. my point is that the corporate world, including the automakers, etc., largely have been led to expect bailouts ...

Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black? You don't work. You don't pay taxes, your husband does. You got your Yale education for free on a geographic preference. You want treble damages from your landlord. You won't even replace your toilet seat.

"The good news is that the lower-income people spend money that goes, to a much larger degree, right back into the domestic economy. Top ten percent, not so much"

Yes, they do more important things with it... like invest, so we have an economy to feed everyone.

I like how you think spending on xboxes and haircuts will serve the economy best.

"Again. The rich are subsidized with fancy sounding things like tax credits, lower financing cost..... The poor get sect 8 vouchers, and food stamps"

The rich aren't subsidized... whatevery deductions they get only partially offset the PROGRESSIVE system. The rich pay a larger percentage of their incomes, even with any deductions, which are relatively piddling compared to the poor.

Not to mention, most of the tax credits I'm aware of the poor get too. THe deduction is worth relatively more to them than me...

w67 your comments are directed to the "super rich" class with the jabber on transfer pricing, cayman islands, 2nd home boat deductions, yadda, yadda, yadda. having lived through your dismissive example of moving up from 500k to 1mm fueled by hard work and determination, i am the one flmao. i know all to well about the lower bracket waiting for us any time, just don't want the gvmt dragging me back down there by materially changing the rules in the middle of the game.

btw, see newly elected nyc comptroller liu big proponent of the new bonus tax on wall st. big surprise given the comments reported yesterday by that esteemed organization from the wfp. now thats a real flmao. lets see what that does to nyc real estate prices. your 500psf might be the ask instead of the bid.

The income tax is immoral because it stakes a claim on someone's life. Sales tax, user taxes, real-estate taxes and other such taxes are acceptable to facilitate the functioning of society. The income tax is a disgrace. Debating the percentage of income tax is like deciding the level in Dante's hell that you want to occupy. First, the government has to confiscate the income tax by violance and force. Second, the corrupt politicians pick winners and losers distributing the money. The government "clerks" only real concern is to buy enough votes to keep himself in power.

julia---same tired old rant? time to post the youtube for the 9,000th time. don't forget about slavery.

Rangerdude. Iook I like you and am sure you worked hard to claw your way up to the top. Coupla points
1) rules have not changed, govt has 'right' to change taxes;
2) I'm trying to find a nuanced discussion of taxes and our roles to play in society. I.e. Away from=> me like money, govt take my money, kill govt.
3) you are looking at rangerdude today / worked hard / got right breaks vs. Young rangerdude earning $20k/yr / maybe not get lucky break work at mcd;
4) income above basic food, clothing shelter, and entertainment doesn't bring 'much more' utility to society. Yes maybe to you personally a 'Rolex' is leaps and bounds better than a seiko $5 watch.... But effectivley same utility overall to society.;
5) the notion of 'working' harder to make more is nice a quaint but you are using the $12/hr burger flipper to justify going from $500k to $1mm. Again I point to myriad examples that show income above a certain level is seat positoning more than indiviuldual merit and/or effort.

w67..re: 'Again I point to myriad examples that show income above a certain level is seat positoning more than indiviuldual merit and/or effort.'

um..duhhh, since when was anything a true meritocracy? managers hire assistants on tit-size, staff on girth, and some on personality to keep the client happy.

the irony in your case is that i believe your dad let you go from the family RE firm, based on well.. merit, from your 'sky is blue' assessments.

w67 (cue music) i actually think you are one of the most informed posters on the board and generally appreciate your insights and musings. let me be clear on a couple of things, i get your nuanced views on roles we play beyond a simplistic me make money, gvmt take money, kill gvmt. i would counter that view with me make money, me bust my ass to establish career and family and gvmt puts hand in pocket and says 6.0 for me, 4.0 for you - too bad. especially when i am smacked in the face with the bs every day i wake up and have to suffer the clowns/pimps in city and state gvmt. (i will stay away from feds right now cause we'll be here all night).

i also get personal responsibility, love thy neighbor and making right/good decisions. i would disagree with your generalization that at the highest levels luck is just an important factor as other attributes. luck, yes, divine intervention, maybe, god/buddha/allah surely cares about us all equally but again another matter. most successful peeps ive encountered where not the products of happenstance - but thats just me. as for the others, i am all about solutions just know that all things being equal the gvmt has done a pretty crappy job solving those problems. and watch out, your rolex and your wife's rock and your porche may be next.

The poorest Americans DO pay taxes - payroll taxes if they work, state income taxes in crazy low-bracket states like new york, sales taxes, and excise taxes. Often even property taxes. Its retarded to focus JUST on the federal income tax. Net-net, taxes in this country are FLAT, as most of what I just listed are flat or REGRESSIVE taxes.

" payroll taxes if they work" What a pathetic comment!

You don't think any poor people work? I sincerely hate you. And I don't mean dislike, I mean hate.

He read my mind:

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/08/lucky-ducky-redux/

oh shuttup you should be thanking us for the earned income credit, make work pay credit, american opportunity credit, child tax credit, daycare dependent credit, that you and your spawn use all subsidized from my middle income (not rich) salary that deems me to wealthy to qualify for any said credits.

what else you want a free pension? ask kevin5, he's looking for someone to join him on his muffin runs to the bodega while manning the door of condos throughout the city.

Let me add this....
Only people that file and pay their taxes should be able to VOTE!!!

there are no bodegas on park ave. maybe near ave d?????

not only VOTE, but have children...and all undocumented child-bearers who participate in these credits should have their spawn shipped to putnam county via rail to reduce gas emissions.

there's a bodega on my firescape.. when i tell my cohorts back in ohio i live on avenue D they think it's in gramercy. bless them.

when you tell your cohorts that you're a doorman, you're still a doorman, who happens to leverage his pension from my taxes. well played, good sir.

prada = paola?

when i tell my cohorts that i am living a happy life they are happy for me. I dont think you can say the same for yourself. you seem very angry with your life. sounds complicated. Its stuck up people like yourself who think a title buys them priviledges. Yes I am a doorman. my life is very happy and simple. oh and this doorman is about to buy his own apt with your taxes. something tells me you would have been happier staying in ohio.

can you guys go pls measure your peckers on a different thread, me and w67th are trying to solve the worlds ills.

Hey Lundqvist I was just reading posts and happened to see him call me out in here so I responded. Lets beat them Flyers. I apologize if Im taking away from his thread.

ha, no sweat. i get it.

jason10006..Liberty requires responsibilty; that is why most men dread it.

And why do most men dread you? Let me count the ways ...

alanhart The court jester for the socialist state.

'oh and this doorman is about to buy his own apt with your taxes.'

you're welcome?

Is this right or just more misinformation? E.g. are we including payroll taxes here? or SS taxes etc? I do know that even lowly paid waitstaff or interns or hourly workers at fastfood joints get taxes withheld and dont get any back in April. So unless I am getting my definitions all wrong I don't see how they don't pay *any* taxes.

Aboutready, as someone who doesn't pay taxes, other than 20 years ago when you paid off your husband's delinquencies in order to induce him to marriage, how do you feel about this issue?

Rangersfan, alrighty back to saving our planet. Or at least the uws.

I would hope that when my kids are starting their career and have the inevitable layoff, setbacks, and find 'myself' years he and she will have the safety net of a 'good' govt if daddy and mommy is not there.

Okay two more quick points:
1) whether you know it or not, you are part of a noble human experiment. up until 200 Yrs ago, we mostly settled things by poking each other with sharp sticks. Me, I like this democratic stuff. Beats practicing my broadsword every day.
2) now that you've gotten clean water, a govt that forces education on children, equal rights for all colors, sexual orientation, and religions, pretty darn good access to healthy women and food, you'd like the $.03 change from a $100bill. I know plenty of ppl that'd pay $200 for what you have rangerfan. They prove it everyday by leaving their engineering degree from their country and coming here to drive a cab, so they can get drunk wo the local village leader beating them up (true story).

May the hard work towards your material goals bring you the true gift of empathy to your fellow man.

julia, the grim reaper for the less advantaged. show me a libertarian society that has existed anywhere, at anytime.

newyorker, the earned income credit is an incentive for poor people to work. many people who work still fall below the poverty line. if you work, particularly if you have children, the gov't provides incentives for such work for the lowest earners to indeed encourage the collection of the other taxes you mention, as well as to decrease the amount of aid needed to be spent on the children.

What about the Republic of Congo? How about Liberia? And Zimbabwe, and the Solomon Islands. And don't forget Somalia ...

The bottom 60% in favor of raising taxes on the top 10% is Democracy in action.

actually, RS, many people in the top 10% do not like the increases but they support them. it's not the top 10% that are getting screwed, it's the 60-90% that are, in NYC the 60-95%.

AH, sadly I forgot our friends in such delightful countries. i think there is no way in hell libertarianism hits our shores, but i'm starting to worry about fascism.

w67 - to know me is to love me, believe me i have plenty of empathy for my fellow man. and i am all for equality, matter of fact i am now pretty sure that when the pioneers of the movement were walking arm and arm i am now convinced it may have been partly to enusre that their gvmt brethren werent able to reach down into their pockets.

and i love this country and all it stands for just that it seems the last few years when i went for my physical and the dr put on his glove and grabbed at my nuts and asked me to cough, somehow the gvmt showed up in the room and flipped me over and rammed something up my a**.

you are way too smart not to ackowledge the insanity that is going on in nyc and state level. not sure how old your children are but i am sure if they went into their favorite candy store and proceeded to gorge themselves on sugar goodies there would be a point where you would step in to stop them.

your pokin at sticks analogy is thoughtful but i don't think we've evolved nearly as much as you might suggest, we just have found more sophisticated ways to conquer and control.

and the pokin each other with sticks analogy really hasnt evolved that much from 200 yrs ago.

rf, you bit his bait.. you haven't been here long enough to realize w67 can easily speak about empathy for another man because his father gave him a 'leave me alone' severance to leave the family RE firm due to his incompetence and major time spent posting rhetoric on message boards, of which i own up to.

and yes agreed that his analogies, as contrived as can be to sound witty and mom jeans hip, have been around since adam and steve.

ss400k, love him or hate him, i'm fairly certain your story about w67th getting kicked out of the family RE business has zero truth. perhaps you misunderstood what someone else wrote? or someone simply lied, as is common here?

and rangersfan has been around for awhile. rf, i agree. wtf is going to happen at the state and local level? insanity.

"Love logic. Let's see $500k to $1mm bc I can work harder. I don't know what rock you've been living under but as you go up in income levels on average 'hard work' decreases and 'luck of moving chairs' increases. Like a physician choosing to go into internal meds vs specialty field 20 yrs ago when that specialty was out of favor. Take oncology for example, used to be they got paid less bc everyone with cancer died. Now they get a cut of every $10k drug prescribed..... Harder work? Nope.... Just timing baby"

Disagree completely. My compensation is negotiated with the people I work for and is therefore based on the value that I bring to the people I work for. I know that the people who make more than me add more value than I do because I see it. And I know that if I continue to work hard, I'll be able to offer more value in the future, and I should have the opportunity to be compensated accordingly, without confiscatory policies. Otherwise, I may decide to not bother to go the extra distance, and I'll lose out, the government won't get its extra taxes even at flat marginal rates, and most significantly, the people I provide value to through my work (call them the "economy") won't receive the benefit of my incremental work.

As for this cancer doctor, it sounds like a great argument to the contrary. 20 years ago they got paid less. So some doctors took a risk and went into an out of favor field, at lower pay, and then proved their worth and now get paid more. Sounds like entrepreneurship in the medical field.

Ok, let's make this super simple. Say 2 people live on an island and each has $100. One person picks coconuts and sells them to the other person who makes bowls out of them and sells them back. That person takes the bowls and fills them with fish he caught and sells them back to the other person who then mixes leftover coconut milk into the fish dish and sells it back. They do this over and over creating a very healthy little economy. You can imagine many more people on the island if it makes it more "realistic" for you.

If they do this 5 times for example, the velocity of the money has increased the GDP of our little island to $1000 even though there is really only $200 worth of currency on the island. Good for them.

Now let's imagine the volcano gods institute a 20% income tax on each of these transactions in the form of an income tax because everyone knows volcano gods benefit enormously from increases in the velocity of money. In exchange, the volcano god promise to make it rain every once in a while and to not blow up the volcano. It doesn't take a math genius to realize that after a little while, this healthy little economy is left with no money as the volcano gods have all $200. Sure they have the things they have purchased but they are out of money and the printing presses are kept by the "others".

We live on a much bigger island but this is exactly what is going on. If you choose to believe the volcano gods, to whom you pay tax, can make it rain, I've got some holy coconuts shaped like little buddhas to sell you.

are there roads on your island? police? coconut shell inspectors?

"The poorest Americans DO pay taxes - payroll taxes if they work, state income taxes in crazy low-bracket states like new york, sales taxes, and excise taxes. Often even property taxes. Its retarded to focus JUST on the federal income tax. Net-net, taxes in this country are FLAT, as most of what I just listed are flat or REGRESSIVE taxes."

This is simply false. Add up all the taxes, and we have a PROGRESSIVE tax system. The lefties just like the confusing tax code so nobody gets this... and then they can yell "the rich need to pay their fair share".

And the scam works. The majority of Americans believe we should have essentially flat taxes (which would mean LOWERING for the rich), yet buy into the "rich should pay more".

The Democrats know better than the rest of America so much so that they won't tell them the truth.

"I know plenty of ppl that'd pay $200 for what you have rangerfan. They prove it everyday by leaving their engineering degree from their country and coming here to drive a cab, so they can get drunk wo the local village leader beating them up (true story)."

Yes, our standard should be whether we are preferable to dictatorship, famine, or savegery! Thats the American dream. Forget opportunity, we don't need any, as long as the murder rate is 1% lower here.

Now, that explains the New York State legisture and where their low bar comes from...

"This is simply false. Add up all the taxes, and we have a PROGRESSIVE tax system"

No its not. Payroll taxes are regressive (SS stops at 108k/yr), sales and excise taxes are regressive as the poor spend more of their money than the wealthy, property taxes are regressive because the lower middle class spends a higher percentage of their income on home ownership expenses than do the middle class who in turn spend more than the upper middle class on so on. Finally, fees, fines, tolls and other discretionary government charges and penalties hit the poor more than the middle class and the middle class more than the wealthy for the same reasons.

In addition to all of this, income tax DEDUCTIONS (as opposed to credits) are conveniently ignored on this thread. DEDUCTIONS are regressive, because the wealthy can deduct a larger percentage of their mortgage et al than can the upper middle class who turn can deduct more than the middle class who in turn can deduct more than the lower middle class.

Taken all together, the actual EFFECTIVE tax rate is actually flat, and if anything the lower-, middle- and upper-middle classes pay MORE than either the poor OR the rich in terms of percentage of gross income (including investment income) paid in all taxes. In fact, the very rich (those above $1mm) pay less than the merely rich (above $250k) but less than the mega-rich (above $10MM).

So its hilarous that people on this board who are not in the very wealthy catagory are complaining about the POOR not paying taxes! Please, let the GOP run on this platform!

Wait...someone beat me to it:

"Do conservative media figures want to raise taxes on middle- and low-income Americans?"

http://mediamatters.org/research/201004090030

jason, given the analysis above i am assuming youre about 12. don't think this board is being dominated by the poor not paying their fair share, its about the limitless possibilties of gvmt pissing away money they don't have and fiscal policies that would not pass eco 101 class models. its a HUGE problem in NYC/NYS and getting worse. solutions grounded in increasing revenues (taxes) at ANY level is just suicidal. we will start feeding on each other. as i stated much earlier in this post, i am already walking around in w67th thong.

"Just How Progressive Is the Tax System?

Not as much as you might think....research has found that many states and local governments have more regressive tax systems, though, that might offset the progressiveness of federal tax rates....the average effective tax rate is 29.8 percent, and that including state and local taxes makes the tax curve look much less steep...in 2008 the share of total federal, state and local taxes paid by each income group was relatively close to the share of income that that group brings in..."

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/04/13/just-how-progressive-is-the-tax-system/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/27/AR2007062700097.html

Jason, you can repeat yourself a few more times, and point out specific taxes as much as you want...

but you're still wrong.... you've just bought into the bad information the democrats like giving out.

I posted the link here a few months back - and will have to dig - but multiple non-partisan groups have done the study and at the end of the day, the system is progressive.

For every example of regressive taxes you note, there are progressive ones that have a far bigger effect (like an average fed tax rate that goes from 0% to something in the 20%s for folks at $100k to nearly 40% for the high end).

The anecdotes become irrelevant... at the end of the day, its the SUM that matters, not what the parts are called.

The the SUM is PROGRESSIVE.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is a victim of leftie propaganda.

and I like how even the data you presented... from a LIBERAL group whose goal is to RAISE taxes on the rich... it still demonstrates your assertion incorrect!

ranger, what do we do? vast amounts of money have already been spent, without the income to cover it. last year the feds gave the states a relatively healthy amount of cash so they wouldn't reduce spending (we could argue for hours, but not necessarily a bad idea) and what did NY do? INCREASED its budget.

there are some signs that states' revenues will begin repairing themselves over time, most notably next year, but in the meantime populations have increased as have budgets (and i won't even touch the pension issue). how do we pay without killing investment? how do we not pay without condemning ourselves to huge debt interest obligations over time, ones we are in no position to take on given the entitlement obligations?

i'm afraid you are correct, and we will start feeding on each other. it's already showing up in sentiment.

btw, that thong sounds uncomfortable.

btw, they're including FICA TAXES YOUR EMPLOYER PAYS in your "taxes"!

oh my lord, talk about shady! they're including CORPORATE TAXES and pretending the employees paid them!

I love it. You can subtract a good 5% from their "estimates" for the low middle class (and it would be a much smaller fraction for rich folks).

So... that alone, and its clearly progressive again.

ar - its gotten to the 11th hour with the budget mess, state revenues may indeed come back a bit but as you probably know the recent forcasts were again were projected as overly optimistic. tough decisions have to be made balanced by fiscal prudence rather than complete domination by political influence. will it happen without a catastrophe - doubt it. but there's LOTS that can/should be fixed with HUGE cost saves if approached correctly (pension reform, freeze on agreed upon wage increases, real reform in contract negotiations). all of this is/has been on the table in the private sector - not only freezes on wage increases, etc. but real and meaningful rollbacks. its just hasnt made its way to public sector and the answer is not new/additional taxes. look at city/state budget last 5 years. off the charts. talk about a bubble.....

oh, and the thong. really uncomfortable - especially after above-post on my physical.

I know what you speak of. It's funny but the govt is always 5yrs behind it's ppl. Look at alocohol, abortion, slavery... Even fiscal policy. Noone spoke of budgets when all Americans were spending like gaga and promising each other the moon in terms of private pensions /bonuses etc. Now the populous is starving and the 'queen' is eating cake.

Just a temporary blip and ppl like yourself thongfan, will have an audience from which govt will be reigned in. Saw it in the early 80's when every govt excess was exposed. Tax rate changes over time just don't go chasing the lowest one :).

I'm kewl with the anger over govt waste. I don't like it when my kid just eats 1/2 the meal and says he's hungry an hour later. But maybe this zen thought will keep the blood pressure down while we bear the higher tax rate for awhile.

I'm assuming at 'our' income level, we've got the basics covered. So we are really talking about luxuries of life. The rolexes, porsches, first class tkts etc. So if all your competition is taxed at the higher rate guess and demand shifts down, I'd posit that prices fall but consumptin stays the same. Look at luxury mkts-> it's in freefall still

33 states have already run out of unemployment compensation money, and must borrow from the feds. some quite some time ago.

greece? hell, that's nothing compared to california.