Argyle Brooklyn - Park Slope/Gowanus

Why do you think it will be nicer in a couple of year? I'm not being snarky, I'm just wondering if you have concrete evidence that this will be the case. Conventional wisdom is that in a falling market, there is a flight to quality (in real estate that's location). I would guess (knowing nothing specific) that gentrification in this are will either stagnate or retracts. Property values certainly won't be helped by the move to make Gowanus a superfund site, altho' it is the right thing to do.

Several thoughts:

(1) There are threads (yes, multiple) re: the Argyle already.
(2) You have to be out of your mind if you're thinking about buying into a condo during construction. As it is, they are already way behind schedule. Last July, I called and they were estimating that residents would be able to move in in November. Then in was January or February. Now it's May, and still no C of O.
(3) Prices are absurd. They're sticking to roughly $800 psf.
(4) It's just not a good area. 7th street and 4th avenue is about as much Park Slope as RC Cola is Coke.
(5) Sales have all but stopped in the past few months. They sold a bunch off the bat in 2007 and 2008, but very few recently. I doubt if they've hit 75% sold. Good luck getting a mortgage.
(6) The store next door is crummy.

(7) A few months ago, I went to (what used to be) the showroom on 5th ave and 1st street, and took the "tour." A lot of the materials used look cheap. Perhaps they are more better quality than they appear, but they just look cheap.

Todd, familyguy is making a very sound argument; listen to him.

The recession is INTERRUPTING the gentrification process. All those areas that got nicer over the past several years? That is coming to a halt now.

It will eventually resume (probably), but maybe not for many years -- maybe not for 7 or 8 years, and in the case of 4th Avenue, which most longtime Brooklyn folks consider a bad area, even with the new buildings -- in the case of 4th Ave., the "getting nicer" process may not resume in your lifetime.

That is not Park Slope. You will never be able to resell the apartment. There is a glut of emtpy apts on Fourth Avenue that will not be absorbed for 20 years.

If you guys have to buy right now -- and you should avoid it unless you absolutely have to - you should look in Ft. Greene and Clinton Hill, where prices have already come down a bit. Stay away from Fourth Ave., prices there are going to sink like a stone, the apts will not hold their value.

First off let me thank everyone for their feedback. It is very helpful.

Here's my thoughts:
1. The apartments are quite nice. They are spacious, and have great layouts. They are also new.
2. We want outdoor space and you can get a significant private outdoor space in the buildings.
3. We can afford a 2BR there.
4. It's 2 blocks from the F and R train.
5. You can walk to 5th Ave and the rest of Park Slope easily.
6. It is industrial which I don't mind. The shops close down at night and there are people around during the day.
7. Fourth avenue is wide and open. Yes, its filled with trucks, etc.
8. There is a nice park 2 blocks away.
9. The entrance to the apartment is on 7th Street which is primarily residential.
10. There is a lot of developments on 4th Ave. Regardless of the price point on the projects eventually more people will move to 4th Ave.
11. I used to live in the 50's by 10th Ave. It was once very industrial and still is somewhat.I have seen first hand the slow developments there. This reminds me of that...

I am a Realtor at Remax @ The Slope in Park Slope. I have been a Realtor for 12 years. Will the Gowanus area change? Yes, it's just a matter of time. How much time? I don't know, but I do know it's earmarked for quite a few different developments. You couldn't give away a Brownstone in Park Slope in the 70's for over 20K...
Look at it now.
It's just a matter of time for the Gowanus area.
4th ave development?
A long way away.

Luke Constantino
Commercial | Residential
RE/MAX @ THE SLOPE
Direct: (212) 300-3919 | Fax: (360) 368-0098
http://LukeConstantino.com

Luke, you speak Bubble Talk! The Inevitability of Gentrification theory has already been proven flawed and failed. Not to mention that Park Slope started gentrifying in the mid 60's--over 40 years later it is fab. The only reason some areas got nice quick was because of the bubble, which is now burst. I think buying in any 'borderline' area is stupid now--and if you do, make sure is for a lot less than things went for a year ago. And I think buying new construction anywhere in Brooklyn is akin to putting your money in a toilet and flushing. Buying something unique and charming (pre-war or in a brownstone) is safe--it may be worth less in a year, but it will bounce back in the next 5 or so years. New construction however is over--there is far too much, it is all the same, and the cookie-cutter granite/stainless/soaking tub thing is completely over. You won't be able to give those away in a year.

Slope11217
That is funny considering 11217 is not even Park Slope. It is Boerum Hill. Argyle is 11215 - the zip code of PS.

The building is 75% sold and closing starts in a week or so. Street Easy is not the Bible you know. Information on presales and anything under contract are just based on some evidence but not 100% like actual sales that is filed with the city.

The store next door actually just renovated.

Stop spreading FUD about the finish. You can easily visit the model unit in the building to see it yourself. I have been in several new construction in Boerum Hill, Prospect Heights and etc - Definitely better than those.

FUD.

Todd, don't ever make the biggest financial decision of your life with anonymous internet posting, especially Street Easy. Even Brownstoner.com is better than this place. StreetEasy is good for starting your research (as long as you know it is never 100% accurate).
You can visit the place.

Argyle may not be for you. It may be for you. Don't let others make that decision for you.

(lives in Park Slope, but in 6th Ave).

Avoid it.

4th avenue is in the middle of the biggest housing glut in the biggest housing glut borough.

There is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much new inventory on 4th avenue, and not much of a neighborhood to go with it. You are 1 block from a giant uhaul lot, and thats one of the better neighbors!

This area is going to be in shambles for years. I would not buy now.

crimsonfilms...best post on this site!
Please dont take advice from the bitter people that are on this site...there is nothing to back up what they are saying and you could walk away from a great property because people need a place to complain about places they could never afford to buy.
Do the research yourself and I am sure your gut will tell you which way to go.GOOD LUCK!

Look, it wouldn't be my choice right now, but I don't know your financial situation. If this is cheaper than renting for you and doesn't represent a huge portion of your assets/income to buy and to keep, then there isn't that much at stake. If this purchase represents your life savings and the carrying costs will make it difficult for you to save going forward, then I would advise against it.

NYC10022 -
There is more inventory in one block of LIC or Willy-B than the entire Park Slope section of 4th Ave.
If you don't know that, you can check a site called StreetEasy. You may know that location.
Novo and Crest are nearly sold out (4 units left total).
500th 4th Ave is at least 1 year before presale and 2 years to open. The corners of 8th street has not even broke grounds yet.
So where are these gluts? There are buildings out there that needs buyers but the glut level is no different from other neightborhoods including Tirbeca, West Village, Prospect Heights, UWS, and etc.
And far from Will-B or LIC level.

crimsonfilms: "Slope11217 That is funny considering 11217 is not even Park Slope. It is Boerum Hill. Argyle is 11215 - the zip code of PS."

Really? Union Street and 5th avenue is Boerum Hill? Really? Because the last time I checked, Union Street and 5th avenue was in 11217 and is smack dab in the middle of Park Slope.

crimsonfilms: "The building is 75% sold and closing starts in a week or so. Street Easy is not the Bible you know."

So, what is your "Bible"? That is, please tell me what your source is. Because I'm certainly not going to accept the word of some anonymous guy on StreetEasy. Especially not someone who thinks that 5th avenue and Union Street is Boerum Hill.

By the way, I noticed that you failed to mention a CERTIFICATE OF OCCUPANCY. Until the Argyle has a CERTIFICATE OF OCCUPANCY, you have to be out of your mind to buy there.

I'm guessing you're a bitter owner who paid half a million for a 650 square foot one bedroom. Good luck to you.

626 Union Hall on 4th Ave is 11215. :/

75% sold. My source? Bank condo questionaire. That is legal documentation

"Bitter owner"? So you must be one of those renters vs owners type of people. That is your angle. Nothing to do with actual logical advice. Purely emotional class war stuff.

Thanks for the good luck though.

> There is more inventory in one block of LIC or Willy-B than the entire Park Slope section of 4th
> Ave.

Uh, yeah.

And, pretend its true... since when is being slightly less of a glut than glut central anything less that... a glut?

Fourth Avenue was waaaaaaaaaaaaaay overbuilt, and it has less draw than Williamsburg.

Its going to take decades for all the promised improvements to come.

Personally, I think this is one of the worst possible investments in all the city.

""Bitter owner"? So you must be one of those renters vs owners type of people. That is your angle. Nothing to do with actual logical advice. Purely emotional class war stuff."

No, the guy just responded to the owner who tried to call others bitter.

But, its pretty clear who is bitter (and sh*tting their pants) these days... so you're not going to win that argument.

You keep mentioning "glut". Please show some numbers.......

Bitter? LOL. All your "arguments" are based on emotions and you imply I am bitter?
Uhm ok...

> You keep mentioning "glut". Please show some numbers.......

Crain's did an entire article on 4th avenue, posted here about 3 months ago. Just look it up.

OR just walk down 4th avenue. If you can't tell that its overbuilt, you just aren't looking. They went from 0 housing to thousands of apartments in a small stretch in a marginal neighborhood.

If you're trying to claim there wasn't a MASSIVE increase in inventory, then I wonder if you've ever been to the neighborhood.

> Bitter? LOL. All your "arguments" are based on emotions and you imply I am bitter?

First off, pretend all my arguments are based on emotions... why would that make me bitter? Its AWESOME to be a non-owner in this market.

2, are you kidding? Emotions? You think the knowledge of thousands and thousands of new units is based on "emotion". You think my understanding of the neighborhood is based on "emotion".

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you are in delusion here.

The building boom was real.

In terms of safety, quality of the neighborhood, I've had to go to fourth avenue for various reasons hundreds of times in the last few years.

Try again, though.

Just because you don't like the answers doesn't mean someone else made them up.

Oh please do post the Crain's article. Also include the other articles that relate to Park Slope.

11215 4th Ave is in fact the exact opposite of what you claim. There Novo and Crest are sold out. The 3 condos planned on 4th Ave (500 and the 8th street corners) are either stalled or will not be ready for at least 18-24 months. 2 others in north of 9th Ave went in to rental.

So again, other than lightly refering to an article, show me the numbers. Or did you confuse Greenwood,Sunset PArk, etc part of 4th Ave?

Thousands and thousands - lol. You are just precious. Where are the thousands of units in 4th Ave. Again, it is a simple question posed to the fundamentals of your argument.

Todd, I think you make a pretty good case for why you would buy in the Argyle right now. But I wouldn't put too much faith in the area turning around. It will take years. YEARS. Not only is there a ton of new condo development on 4th Ave., there's a ton in downtown Brooklyn. With inventory rising everywhere - and investor money gone - I just don't see where the horde of buyers is going to come from to fill up all that inventory and drive the continued development of 4th Ave.

Even if some of the buildings are largely sold, that area is going to stay the way it is for some time, in my opinion.

As for the other factors, I think they're a matter of taste, and you make a good case for why this could be a good purchase for you. Cool. But don't count on the 4th Ave. landscape changing anytime soon.

"The 3 condos planned on 4th Ave (500 and the 8th street corners) are either stalled or will not be ready for at least 18-24 months. 2 others in north of 9th Ave went in to rental."

Wait, and you're saying this is evidence this *isn't* a glut? You're kidding me....

500 alone will be another 156 units...

Stuff going rental? You don't think thats all part of the glut? You think its a good thing for the other selling when one can't sell?

What's different between 4th Avenue now and Williamsburg 20 years ago? Or LIC? or any of the properties adjacent to the West Side Highway?

Initially no one wanted to live in those areas either but certainly people do now. The thing that I do like about 4th Ave. compared to other marginal places in Brooklyn is that just a few blocks away is great. You can walk to all that Park Slope has to offer.

If someone knows were you can get a comparable apartment/price that I would like to really hear that.

"What's different between 4th Avenue now and Williamsburg 20 years ago? Or LIC? or any of the properties adjacent to the West Side Highway? "

On the latter, uh, its Manhattan.

On the former 2... you're talking about places that have already seen major declines, and are on their way to more.

AND you're talking about (in WB) neighborhoods that boomed when real estate bubbled. But the bubble popped.

Being the "up and coming" neighborhood in a bubble pop is the worst place to be.

Sorry.

> If someone knows were you can get a comparable apartment/price that I would like to really hear that.

At $750 bucks a square foot, are you really serious? Tons to choose from.

And, in the end, a bargain about to become a bigger bargain is no bargain at all.

500 Fourth Ave. which includes a finished deck, gym, baby room, FT doorman and is one block away from the F&R is less then $700 sq ft.

Where else can you find that in Brooklyn? I don't know where. If you do, please let me know.

Rental bldg is not quite the same as units for sale if you are considering long term. You are not directly competing with those.

NYC10022
I dare you to compare. AS you said, Willy-B and LIC is not even in the running as their 'glut' is higher- MUCH higher.
Second, convenience - how much of Willy-B is 5 minutes from a walking distance.
What other Brooklyn neighborhood that offers the same amenity and real estate stability at $650-$800 sqft.
Dumbo and Heights? No.
Boroeum Hill or Carroll? Yes in rare instances. The comps are extremely few.
Prospect Heights? If you think 4th Ave is bad, Atlantic Ave is better?

Seriously - look at the comps around western Brooklyn and tell me where this magic $500 sqft condo that is in a nice neighborhood, close to the subway and is holding its property value.

Park Slope, and YES including those in 4th Ave, is holding its price. At worse it has seen some decline but nothing compared to the rest of the borough. At best it has seen single digit increases (Crain article to support that BTW).

There are just some hyperboles here that is just not supported by facts.

And you worry about 500 on 4th? One building in LIC or Willy-B has more units than that one building in construction.

You make it sound like in this time of recession that 4th Ave is in decline but the reality is, it is actually doing better than most of the 'bubble' areas (Willy B, LIC, Prospect Heights, Battery Park, etc, etc).

Wow - great to hear all the heated debate about my favorite 'hood....
I bought at The Argyle and am quite happy, even after I did my walk-through for a closing scheduled for later this month.
4th Avenue is not overbuilt - the condo projects are all sold and closed, the others are rentals (or in the case of 500 4th are in denial about ending up as a rental)... with "historically low" mortgage rates, I don't see a major negative... and slower gentrification allows for more time for the cool stuff to stay around... mixed races and classes... interesting cultural events... I didn't buy there because I was hoping to be surrounded by white investment banker yuppies...
The building has a good mix of good, efficient, and practical layouts, good pricing, amenities that you will use (and want to pay for), etc.
Proximity to subway is king... and if you are the kind of person that actually likes walking a block to 5th Avenue or 2 blocks to Smith Street go for it!
I also lived in Hells Kitchen "back in the day" and am not opposed to the odd industrial use... isn't a mixed use nature why we live in New York CITY... it is a city after all...

Thanks for your comments Man_Frog_Lust. Nice to hear from another optimistic person.
Question - Why do you think 500 Fourth will go rental? What's different there then the rest of the Condos?

i would just be concerned about a condo just starting from zero sales in this market... hard to get to the 50-70% sold required by any mortgage lender in a reasonable length of time. luckily argyle is supposedly 75% sold which gives me a lot of comfort. i locked in a rate of 4.75% on my mortgage, which was a pleasant surprise!

Anyway, I just love this part of Brooklyn. For me it has all the romance that Manhattan used to have before it became land of the hedge funders. sure parts of gowanus can be noxious and/or desolate, but ask any literate 23-year old and they will tell you that gowanus is THE hot neighborhood. It has all the bones of soho, dumbo, and williamsburg... and if it takes 10 years to get there that's fine by me.

good luck finding the place that's right for you - there or elsewhere!

Support the clean up effort.
http://www.superfundgowanus.org/

"Anyway, I just love this part of Brooklyn. For me it has all the romance that Manhattan used to have before it became land of the hedge funders. sure parts of gowanus can be noxious and/or desolate, but ask any literate 23-year old and they will tell you that gowanus is THE hot neighborhood."

They said the same think about Red Hook. That was a bust...

You need to stop listening to the 23 year olds.

> It has all the bones of soho, dumbo, and williamsburg... and if it takes 10 years to get there
> that's fine by me."

Will it be ok if it takes 30? Or never comes?

It has pretty much none of the bones of soho or dumbo.

Soho is Manhattan, 4th avenue is not. Dumbo is prime waterfront, 4th avenue is not. Soho and dumbo have classic old architecture and cobblestone streets.. 4th avenue has gas stations being replaced by ugly buildings with projects. Plus significantly inferior transportation. What exactly do you mean by "same bones"?

In terms of WB, wb got hot because it was cheap and hit at the right time, in a rising market. And now its having its own problems.

4th avenue is a later comer. Its the opposite of WB, its later to the party, and about to get crushed.

"What other Brooklyn neighborhood that offers the same amenity and real estate stability at $650-$800 sqft."

Most of them, and most more stable than 4th avenue. Thats the opposite of stable.

nyc10022 - Please enlighten us with what neighborhoods...

You want me to list most of the neighborhoods in Brooklyn?

Seriously, just do a search by amenity in streeteasy. You'll get thousands of listings under $800 psf.

Hell, you can get DUMBO, the most expensive neighborhood in town, under $800 psf now.

(and in the best building in the area)

Wow, Mr. 10022, you have some strong opinions...

I thought my commentary clarified that I did not fault THE FOURTH for its eccentricities, "far from there" nature, or long-term hopes.

Let it just be said that there are PLENTY of options for people out there, Dumbo included. And some prefer the 'Burg, but its not for me... There is something for everyone in this city... and you may be right that $800 psf is too much these days... but not all of us are willing to live at Myrtle and Nowhere or East Williamsburg (I hear its the new Bushwick - jk). I think 7th St and 4th Ave is a good choice if you are more of a $650-$750 psf person. It's a middle market price for a neighborhood with a lot of perks if you acknowledge and aren't bothered by its downsides. (They all have them, including and especially DUMBO.)

As for 4th Avenue being "about to get crushed"... i would venture a guess that it does much better than many, albeit perhaps not the best...

Good luck wherever you are...

10022 will not name you a nabe because there isn't. He will play the 'do the search' game.

According to StreetEasy "Median price per ft²: $871".

Cheapest 1BR Condo in Dumbo is $700 sqft. The typical 1 BR condo (Argyle, Crest, Novo, 500) for 1 BR w/o is....?
"Do the search'.

crimsonfilms: "That is funny considering 11217 is not even Park Slope. It is Boerum Hill. Argyle is 11215 - the zip code of PS."

Slope11217: "Really? Union Street and 5th avenue is Boerum Hill? Really? Because the last time I checked, Union Street and 5th avenue was in 11217 and is smack dab in the middle of Park Slope."

crimsonfilms: "626 Union Hall on 4th Ave is 11215. :/"

What in the world does Union Street and 4th ave have to do with anything? YOU (incorrectly) claimed that 11217 was NOT in Park Slope. I then pointed out a location that is CLEARLY in the middle of Park Slope and is in 11217. At that point, you tried to hide the ball by pointing to A DIFFERENT LOCATION. What that has to do with whether 11217 covers Park Slope or not is beyond me. It's a terrible argument, one that doesn't even address the issue, and hopes that we all miss the slight of hand.

By the way, if you ask ANY reasonable person on this board, they will tell you that for any given street in the area, they consider 5th avenue to be "more" Park Slope than 4th avenue.

Ok the way, I hope you put down a massive down payment.

"By the way, if you ask ANY reasonable person on this board, they will tell you that for any given street in the area, they consider 5th avenue to be "more" Park Slope than 4th avenue."

That was never the discussion or argued.

> 10022 will not name you a nabe because there isn't. He will play the 'do the search' game.

Wow, genius... written right after I named the name. Brilliant, I tell you.

You mentioned Dumbo :/

> What other Brooklyn neighborhood that offers the same amenity and real estate stability at $650-$800 sqft.

Prospect Heights? If you think 4th Ave is bad, Atlantic Ave is better?
<

Atlantic Ave would probably not be any better to live on than 4th Ave. Both are crappy.

That being said, I think the number of apartments in Prospect Heights that are on Atlantic Ave is approximately NONE.

On the other hand, the number of apartments on 4th Ave that are on 4th Ave is approximately ALL.

I'm not an expert on the neighborhood boundaries in that area, but could you call Atlantic from approximately 6th ave to Washington Ave Prospect Heights? It seems to me Atlantic is just as much Prospect Heights as 4th ave is Park Slope.

It's all semantics though. Both streets would be horrible to live on.

>>I'm not an expert on the neighborhood boundaries in that area, but could you call Atlantic from approximately 6th ave to Washington Ave Prospect Heights? It seems to me Atlantic is just as much Prospect Heights as 4th ave is Park Slope.
<

Yes that's Prospect Heights, but how many apartments are on those blocks?

Crimsonstreet was saying Prospect Heights wasn't a viable alternative to 4th Ave because Atlantic Ave is just as bad. But the apartments in Prospect Heights aren't on Atlantic Ave. Comparing a terrible street with lots of condos to a terrible street with zero condos ain't exactly fair.

Aren't there a few developments on Atlantic and Washington? Not nearly the # as were plopped down on 4th avenue but I do think there is some new condo construction over there.

"That being said, I think the number of apartments in Prospect Heights that are on Atlantic Ave is approximately NONE.

On the other hand, the number of apartments on 4th Ave that are on 4th Ave is approximately ALL."

LOL.

Atlantic is often considered the border of Prospect Heights, but thats the least desirable part of the neighborhood. I wouldn't recommend there, either... same way I wouldn't recommend being on the outskirts of a good neighborhood where it gets crappy in other places - just like, well, uh, 4th avenue.

There are a number of devs on or around Atlantic.

Slope 11217 I love how you pound on the location thing and brings up the whole 'not addressing the issue' yet the dodge name a comp and can't name one. Yeah and I am dodging the discussion.

> There are a number of devs on or around Atlantic.

And there are fish in the sea.

Not sure how trying to point out the worst part of one neighborhood makes a different neighborhood any better. You're actually making the point worse... that the neighborhood you are promoting is on the level of the worst area of an up and coming area.

That doesn't say much for 4th avenue.

And to make this even easier... noone is saying move to Atlantic Avenue... and, in the same vein, some are also saying don't move to 4th avenue either. Neither has much going for it.

Again it goes back to give me a comp - any comp.
It is pointless to keep harping about what you think instead of giving actual comps. This is about real estate right?
A development 2 blocks from a subway station, 1 block from dozens of restaurants and various stores and services. Decent travel to Manahattan. $675-$750 p/sqft. You are throwing all these hyperbol to make your case yet you have bring any comps. Dumbo was brought up (in the most general way) yet just taking a snap shot in regards to $ per sqft but the median price for a condo is 20% higher! Are there bargains in Dumbo? Sure. Are they the rule- of course not. So we have ruled out, Prospect Heights, Dumbo, Willy-B and LIC. What is left?

I mean there was a resale in 6th in PS around 12 ST a month ago for about $730 sqft. Those units are not exactly falling from the sky.

Forte!

next....

Or, hell, Toren.

Pick anything on the Flatbush corridor.

Better transportation to Manhattan, right near multiple shopping areas - hell, the whole Fulton Mall scene, definitely various stores and services.

Cheaper.

And, on a big street being rezoned, just like 4th ave.

Next...

Flatbush corrider?
Uhm I went to school in the area (Brooklyn Tech) - you have to be shitting me if you think that is a better location than the 4th Ave between Union and 16th!! I know that neighborhood very well.

Not to mention those buildings are high rises. Nice try though. Why not add the Oro while you are at it.

Why not? All fit the criteria you mentioned.
Sorry, you're wrong. You jumped up and down saying there was no comp, bla bla, and there it is.

Sorry.

And saying 4th avenue is a better neighborhood. Ha. They're both pretty crappy. But Flatbush has more going for it.

And, did you miss the massive chops on 4th ave...

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/11108-bklyn-and-fourth-avenue-comes-crashing-down

Whoops.

Try again though.

In my opinion, no one should be buying new construction anywhere there is a tax abatement. Once the abatement is over, you will not be able to give these condos away.

Read the bottom of page 2 and first paragraph of page 3, there is a clear explanation why anyone buying a condo, should really think twice or trice before committing.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/08/realestate/08COV.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2&ref=realestate

110% agree ab, great article.

Here's a listing that, in my opinion, is much better. It's not Park Slope, but Windsor Terrace. Closer to the park, the lake and the playground as well as the F-train. Let's not forget that you will actually have a school near by that you can send your kids to, unlike on 4th and 7th.

http://newyork.craigslist.org/brk/reb/1170416404.html

I don't think he's actually reading anymore... he gave up on the shilling.

ab, couldn't agree with you more. With financing issues, location issues and general lack of charm with all these new developments, the word 'new development' is as much a deterrent as a draw for new buyers in Brooklyn. You really have to be selective.

And not to pile on Crimson, but Flatbush Corridor is pretty much THE comp for the 4th Ave. developments, in my opinion. Sure, you can split hairs on the differences between the two areas, but on most issues, they're almost interchangeable (housing stock, general condition and amenities of the area, access to subways, pricing, etc. etc.). And for some buyers, the Flatbush condos will have the advantage (views, mainly)

And with the economy what it is, all these developments are going to have the same two issues:

1) Downward price pressure because buyers can't get financing for new devs (how many all-cash buyers are going to want to purchase these places?); and
2) A weak and weakening argument that their surrounding areas are going to improve anytime soon.

Buy on 4th Ave. if it makes sense to you, but it's not a great argument to say you'll never get a better deal on a 2 BR in prime Brooklyn than the Argyle.

You really think that is the comp nyc10022? Then you know less about RE more than I initially gave you credit for.
School district is comparable? The restaurants and services (KFC vs Al Di La)? Crime rate? Really?
Do you just crunch pricing numbers when basing your comps? Do you even know the neighborhoods? Are you one of those appraisers from a LI bank that compares a brownstone in PS and Ditmas?

AB-
Totally agree. Abatement has always been factored in by the developers. Anyway, banks don't judge loan application only on monthly mortgage cost but on overall carrying cost (mortgage, FULL tax HOA fees). But that is true of new devs or established one.

"You really think that is the comp nyc10022? Then you know less about RE more than I initially gave you credit for."

No, as I said several times, 4th avenue is an inferior neighborhood.

BTW - nyc10022 - have you actually ever been in those areas at all? Seriously.

If I had to guess, about 100 times apiece.

Sorry to burst your bubble....

"No, as I said several times, 4th avenue is an inferior neighborhood."

It is good to be a rebel. I'm pretty sure the market is supporting you.

20-30% declines, absolutely. Not buying in the bubble, call it being a "rebel" or whatever, I just call it not being stupid.

I also take it by your resorting to personal posts that you're admitting you were completely wrong about your original assertion... that one got blown out of the water.

"20-30% declines, absolutely."
You must be refering to Forte's price cuts twice in 5 months. Good point.
stable pricing, great school district, great dining, low crime rate, etc - you really know how to comp them.

"I also take it by your resorting to personal posts that you're admitting you were completely wrong about your original assertion... that one got blown out of the water."

Oh wait... calling people bitter and delusion and I'm resorting to personal posts?
You must be competing for post count or something.

"4th avenue is in the middle of the biggest housing glut in the biggest housing glut borough."

WAIT!! - you said that and then recommended the 'better' Flatbush Ave. Forte, Oro and Toren alone has like 500+ units. WTF!

> stable pricing
Yes, 4th avenue... THATS stable.

> low crime rate
4th avenue, low crime rate. Yes, if you close your eyes, the projects disappear.

Om my lord, you are in such denial....

Keep trying, though.

> WAIT!! - you said that and then recommended the 'better' Flatbush Ave. Forte, Oro and Toren alone
> has like 500+ units. WTF!

And 100x the demand.

Seriously, you are so stretched out to try and rationalize, you're not transparent.

You now have multiple folks all saying you are delusional.

Sorry.

Sorry you feel you need to stretch tohe truth to justify your investment, but it is all incredibly transparent.

And its not going to stop prices from tanking on 4th avenue.

Who knows - maybe I'm unique - but I far prefer 4th Avenue to Downtown Brooklyn. Being close to the "brownstone brooklyn" neighborhoods like Park Slope, Boerum Hill, Carroll Gardens is far more interesting than Flatbush Avenue... Yes you could have a view, and walk to Fort Greene... but the Fulton Mall element is a turn off for me. (And - laugh if you will - but I am a fan of industrial landscapes so am not turned off by the nearby Gowanus Canal, I think it's interesting... but happy it's at least 2 blocks away... it's further from the Argyle than 5th Avenue's restaurants after all.)

And it does go back to the conversation from the NY Times article about the fundamentals of condo ownership. I worry about buildings of several hundred units like those in Downtown are. I don't worry about a 60-unit condo that has 70% of the units in contract.

"4th avenue, low crime rate. Yes, if you close your eyes, the projects disappear."
Typical MO - hyperbole vs facts.

"And 100x the demand."
Right - because those price cuts from $800 to $650 sqft is the reflection of that as we stumble to 70% sold.

"And its not going to stop prices from tanking on 4th avenue."
Just like the "20%-30% decline" in Flatbush?
4th Ave may not be immune (who is?) but YOUR Flatbush has already taken a beating. And I am in denial?
Project much?

> Being close to the "brownstone brooklyn" neighborhoods like Park Slope, Boerum Hill, Carroll Gardens > is far more interesting than Flatbush Avenue

My next suggestion for you... buy a map. Ever heard of Fort Greene? And Boerum Hill... you really claiming Flatbush should be closer to it? Uh, and you think Part Slope is nowhere near Flatbush?

Seriously, buy a map.

> 4th Ave may not be immune (who is?) but YOUR Flatbush has already taken a beating. And I am in denial?

Uh, dude, its ALL tanking.

That you think that your block is immune... wow, yes, you are in denial.

Went to the building on Sunday. A few observations:
-this won't get done any time in the near future
-one elevator = lots of waiting around in the future
-fit/finish - so,so
-the exterior is out of a Dr. Seuss story - whoa! What color blue is that?
-for those who face east and the park - beware - two new 12 stories going UP across the street
-overpriced
...at least it is nicer than The Elan

Any updates on construction? Has anyone moved in yet? I believe buyers can back out as of July 1 if no C of O (vague memory from when I went to the showroom last summer). Can anyone confirm that?

http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2009/06/argyle_closings.php

Here you go, Slope. Brownstoner's been keeping a good log of this dev., as it does most new devs. in BK.

I could/would never live there, and I am avidly looking for a 3BR in PS, but to each his own!

the drop dead date ("the First Closing of a Unit"), according to the offering plan was 12 months from June 1, 2008. If this was not met, each purchaser had 15 days to rescind. I believe a closing occurred "in time".

"That you think that your block is immune... wow, yes, you are in denial."

Coming from Mr. Oro is a better buy. Wow.

sjtmd:

1. About a quarter of the tennants have moved in. About half already closed with several more scheduled in the next several weeks.

2. Both lots you are talking about are not directly in front of it (north east). The firehouse and the low rise apartments are. Neither is going anywhere. And anyway, neither lots on the corner of 6th street is going to be build anytime soon. Financing fell through. And the closer one.

I have recently financed a unit in this building, and have it approved for great rates and cheap closing costs. Call or email me to find out more.

Michael Most
Senior Mortgage Consultant
917-841-8096
Email: michael.most@citi.com

The "MOST" Trusted Name in Home Loans !