History of Manhattan 86th or 96th boundary?

Above 86th street was considered infinitely less desirable--I recall 86th being kind of the cutoff of the "right" part of the UWS when I was growing up--but it is (and was) certainly manhattan

A lot of projects creep into view north of 86th. Maybe it was/is considered the other side of the tracks for that reason, specifically between Amsterdam and Columbus.

For a long time, I've apparently lived in the "wrong" part of the UWS. I think all of the buildings developed or converted in the 80s, 90s or 00s have done a lot to make 86-96 UWS feel much more gentrified. Also a big thank you to starbucks, the banks and drug stores to make living anywhere in the area feel more convenient. When I first moved here I used to travel over 14 blocks to get to an ATM. Now I have 5 or 6 bank choices within 4 blocks. Excessive, perhaps, but it probably makes newcomers feel the area is less Manhattan "boonies" than it used to be.

I consider anything above 59th Street to be "Uptown".

There aren't many "projects" south of 96th Street, unless you consider Mitchell Lama middle class housing undesirable. Some of these have been converted to market rate housing or condominiums. The reason it historically had a problem is that there was a lot of blight that has over time been filled in with market rate housing. Trinity School in the middle of this formerly blighted area once had a bunker mentality. About 15 years ago the school expanded the school and renovated the older buildings, adding ground floor windows because the neighborhood has changed so radically. This area is an uncelebrated success story in the extent of its urban revitalization.

Thanks, Matt for defining uptown. The OP however was about desirability above 86. Here's how I think it works. On the west side, above 86th is not as desirable unless you're on Riverside Drive or CPW. On the East side above 86 is less desirable East of Lex, but west of Lex b/w 86 & 96 is Carnegie Hill, one of the nicest residential patches in Manhattan, and also an area that has retained its value much better than some other prime locations. 96 to 110 on the West side is kind of a mixed bag, some nice some not so much. On the East side, anything above 96th and East of Madison is projects with a few pockets of nice condo conversions.

and for the historical angle - there was a time in 70s and 80s when the dividing line was south of 86th. back in the early days of the racoon lodge, radio bar and other amsterdam classics some areas north of 79 - in the columbus / amsterdam alley especially - were not desirable

Racoon Lodge!! a blast from the past! When was that--late 80's?

OTNYC, I think WEA between 86-96th is considered desirable as well. Maybe not the same as between 72-86, but desirable nonetheless.

I don't think 96th is the boundary anymore.

I remember back in '95 or so, it was considered upper upper east side to be at Normandy court on 95th. You definitely did not cross 96th. Then the first yuppie buildings crossed the street. Now, there are yuppie college kid buildings at 100th...

Have you been on 96th and Lex lately? I'm still shocked and saddened by how the neighborhood changes at the other side of the street.

"Now I have 5 or 6 bank choices within 4 blocks"

It will be interesting to see how/if this changes in the fairly near term.

On the East side, 96th street was always much more of a "hard" boundary because once you crossed it, it was like someone has flipped a switch and EVERYTHING IMMEDIATELY changed. On the West side, things were different, especially depending on what Avenue you were on because right up until the end, there was really no visual clue. I do remember even up into the 80's when people would have me over to their apartments in the West 90's they would make sure to give directions on how to get there (and I was always like "WTF? Like I'm going to get lost on a grid of numbered streets?") because there was a list of "bad blocks" that "everyone" knew not to walk on. I remember when 222 RSD was built, they had problems selling because 94th between WEA and RSD was know as an SRO "bad block". I remember hearing a story of some Doctor from NJ who had gone there to some open house, singed a Purchase Agreement on the spot, wnt back down stairs to find his Mercedes had the window smashed and whatever, and he went right back upstairs and rescinded the purchase agreement (I know, it's o much more colorful when the story is told "He marched into the office and tore up the contract").

I think pretty much through the 80's, Amsterdam North of 86th was considered bad, even after 96th and West end got "jumped". but I'll stop opining now because I'm really not an expert on this stuff.

But to answer the OP; yes, it was because of crime, or at least "bad element/rough trade" attitudes as opposed to anything done by any governmental mandates.

"bad element/rough trade" WTF? Obviously, your insights on the neighborhood are dated b/c crime in the west 90s/upper 80s is extremely low today. Even property crime to parked cars at night is virtually non-existent.

New construction between W 86th and W 96th Streets over the past 25 years has helped to transform the area by replacing vacant lots or under-utilized 'tax payor' structures.: The Columbia, Princeton House, The Lyric, 222 RSD, The Melar, The Manhattan Tower, The Savannah, The Sagamore, 600 Columbus, The Centra, Columbus Townhouses, 279 CPW, The New West and The Montana have all been built in that time frame--and I'm probably missing a few. What's more, an increasing number of prewar structures and townhouses have been tastefully renovated as condo or coop conversions, or as luxury rentals or single family homes.

While these property improvements may not be on par with the Time Warner Center or 15 CPW in style, scale or cost, they have encouraged market rate homeowners and tenants to move to the area.

You consider the Time Warner Center to be a property "improvement"??

yes, I would say the TW center is an improvement over the Coliseum before it, but technically, an "improvement" is any structure on raw land. Since this is a real estate blog, I thought I would use a real estate term.

Yeah, the time warner center brings in many times more tax revenue for the city than what was there before.

And yet it adds nothing to the community.

The unspoken underlying theme of where the "dividing line" is placed and at what times during the last 30 years the "dividing line" has moved correlates almost exclusively to the non-white composition of the neighborhood. All of your arguments and logic about where to place the "dividing line" are essentially race-based. Just pull the diennial census data on the racial mix of the neighborhood and you will have answered your own question.

As a multi decade resident of the area, I consider myself open-minded, and I never saw the topic of gentrification of the neighborhood as race-related, but rather income-related. The demographic income of the area has risen with the property development. Former SROs serve as tourist hotels for budget travelers. The area is safer than it used to be and there is less blight.

Columbus, you are seeing things from your own point of view, which is valid. But others may feel differently.

In the 1970s 96th street on both the east and west sides was crossed with the same lack of concern as the Berlin Wall. (Of course at that time the entire west side with the exception of CPW and maybe RSD was considered sketchy). Because of Columbia University, the west side "improved" in Morningside Heights.. But even on the nicest day, if one wanted to go from Columbia to the West 80s or even 90s you would take the subway or a cab--walking from 116th to 92nd meant going through "no man's land".

And yes, while crime was the "rational" rationale, Columbus is absolutely right about racism being at the heart of these perceptions.

PMG: have you ever seen the definition of "was" in a dictionary?

I remember when I moved from east 81st St to West 73rd street in the 1970's and everyone was frightened for me to live on the upper west side alone as a single female. So I remember when the whole west side was sketchy! But it was a real neighborhood in which you would occasionally spot John Lennon strolling down Columbus Ave. Does anybody remember Yings? It was one of the early Hunan cuisine restaurants to hit NYC. Great memories! Can't wait to move back.