WSJ Gold: Headed for a bubble
Started by positivecarry
over 16 years ago
Posts: 704
Member since: Oct 2008
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Personally, I don't buy anything close to an all time high. Discuss. JUNE 5, 2009, 8:16 A.M. ET Gold: Headed For A Bubble? Though it has captured investors' imaginations, no one can say what gold is really worth. By BRETT ARENDS Investment bubbles usually begin as legitimate bull markets, and I wouldn't be surprised if gold were next. First, there's a serious investment case. Central banks are... [more]
Personally, I don't buy anything close to an all time high. Discuss. JUNE 5, 2009, 8:16 A.M. ET Gold: Headed For A Bubble? Though it has captured investors' imaginations, no one can say what gold is really worth. By BRETT ARENDS Investment bubbles usually begin as legitimate bull markets, and I wouldn't be surprised if gold were next. First, there's a serious investment case. Central banks are flooding the world economy with liquidity. That's a peril to all paper currencies. Anything scarce and valuable, such as precious metals, ought to benefit. Gold is also coming off a very low floor from 10 years ago. And it's captured investors' imaginations. Boston is the home of many of the biggest mutual fund companies in America -- including Fidelity, Putnam, MFS and Wellington -- but one of the busiest places around the financial district right now is J.J. Teaparty, a well-known shop dealing in bullion and rare coins. All day, a steady stream of customers stop in to buy gold and silver bars and coins. A number of local mutual fund managers -- "stocks for the long run" notwithstanding -- have been seen sneaking off during their lunch hours to do the same. Gold may be a great bet at these levels. But people should be aware of the risks of buying bullion -- either through an exchange-traded fund, or directly. To say this metal is volatile is an understatement. Since the start of 2008, the price of gold has swung between $1000 and around $700 (it's currently at $965). This is a safe haven? When the stock market does this, it's on the front page. And while U.S. and other Western investors are jumping aboard the golden caravan, many in Asia -- who rode it all the way from $260 an ounce -- are quietly disembarking. The World Gold Council, an industry body, reports that Asian investors were actually net sellers during the first quarter, while westerners bought heavily and sent prices soaring. Ordinary U.S. investors, on average, aren't timing this market too well. Money flows into, and out of, exchange-traded bullions funds like GLD, and are tracked monthly by Financial Research Corp., an analytics company. Comparing them to gold prices over the past year is disheartening. Gold spiked well above $900 an ounce in July 2008 and again this February and March. Those, of course, were the months when bullion funds reported by far their biggest net inflows. Yet when gold slumped, as it did last October and November and again in April, so did fund sales. Rarely does anyone discuss the biggest problem with gold -- no one actually knows what this metal is really worth. After all, it generates no income. All the gains come from capital appreciation. And that, of course, is a gamble. Don't believe me? Try this: What will an ounce of gold sell for in 2038? Are you confident it will sell for more than $3,500? Yes? No? Maybe? I don't know either, and I'm skeptical of anyone who insists they do know. Anyone buying gold today is basically betting on it. Today you can buy zero-coupon Treasurys guaranteed to turn $965 into $3,500 by then. That's an annual return of about 4.6%. If you're buying gold, which has no guarantees, you are gambling that it will do a lot better. (Of course you may hope to sell long before then. But if you want to make a profit, you will still have to find someone else willing to bet gold will be higher than $3,500 by 2038) While the public has become excited about bullion, shares in mining companies have been left behind. Sales of mutual funds that buy gold-mining shares have been anemic. Both the big and small companies look reasonably cheap compared to their product. A basket of them ought to give many of the benefits of bullion with fewer risks. Many mutual fund companies offer funds that invest in mining stocks. Among them, U.S. Global Investors World Precious Minerals (UNWPX) is rare for focusing on small stocks. Many funds, including for example Tocqueville Gold (TGLDX), Fidelity Select Gold (FSAGX), and Vanguard Precious Metals and Mining Fund (VGPMX) are flexible and can hold stocks and some bullion too if they choose. © 2009 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved [less]
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on the unemployment thread (?) i posted a link that discusses Northwestern Mutual's recent purchase of $400mm worth of gold. That's a huge chunk of change.
Paulson (the hedge fund manager) has been buying it by the boatload. I'd look for the link, but I'm lazy.
Is this a way for them to hedge against a collapsing dollar or inflation?
Isn't Paulson the person that believe we're heading towards hyperinflation, Zimbabwe style?
Here we go..
http://www.businessinsider.com/john-paulson-big-bet-on-inflation-2009-5
I wonder what he is seeing.
Hmmm...from that link, i see another one. Hussman is on board too.
http://www.businessinsider.com/henry-blodget-brace-for-hyper-inflation-3-2009-5
How can we have inflation let along hyper-inflation with no wage increases?
He's seeing record inflows, and need to put the money somewhere. Gold isn't a bad place if you think paper is going to be worthless, but you could also profit from holding oil currencies (AUD, NZD, CAD, ZAR and BRL) since the dollar will pull back as it loses it's safe haven liquidity bid and risk taking resumes.
Bryron Wien predicted gold would be one of the year's surprises and hit $1,200.
It's hard to like the dollar a whole lot given the massive additions to debt and the so-called "quantitative easing" (a.k.a. money printing).
I think a modest IRA position in GLD is a worthwhile hedge. This may be just a trade in which case a tax-sheltered IRA is an appropriate location for such a position.
I personally think gold in a IRA is a horrible idea. It pays no income. What are you sheltering? Buy high yielding stocks and income funds and let them reinvest for 30 years, or do your kids a favor and buy it for them.
Topper, I know you're thinking about the short terms gains you might have to buy, but my argument at the beginning of this post is that we're close to an all time high. I don't personally think gold is going to where himwhoknows predicted a few months back.
If you think the dollar will tank, buy stocks and bonds in currencies you don't think will tank. If the world goes mad max, you will never get your hands on your 'gold" because no one physically touches the stuff in these gold etfs etc.
" but my argument at the beginning of this post is that we're close to an all time high."
Not in real terms.
Yeah in real terms the all time high is $2500 or so. Pick Euro, yen, whatever, the all time high is more than 2X what it is now adjusted for inflation.
...even if you use a GOLD-based inflation calculation!
jason, not picking a fight, just curious. why do you like stocks and bonds in currencies you don't think will tank? I am of similar view, but my statement reads..buy stocks and commodities in currencies you don't think will tank. Currently like ewz, fxi, dba and fxa. Yes dba doesn't fit the idea, but this is the short term PA, not long term.
Asset class is unimportant. The currency is. That is how an ordinary investor can most easily reduce their exposure or even eliminate their dollar exposure if they really think the dollar will tank.
Commodities is interesting because they are almost all priced in dollars world-wide, though.
I wonder what the Hunt brothers are doing?
dollar per se is not the issue, all paper money has it's own problems... eg euro is problematic since germany/france's interests are opposite from ireland/spain/portugal. jpy has horrendous demographics + 20yr strong deflation, etc
ppl like physical gold because they see it as the only asset governments can't directly control
People like like gold for fiat reasons just like they use fiat currency. Over 70% of gold is used in Jewelry, and the next biggest use is as investment/speculation, and only a small minority is for industrial use. There are other commodities that are entirely useful - oil, copper, natural gas - which have actual intrinsic value and can inflation hedges. Gold is pure psychology.
Anyone who has read even the slightest bit on the history of the gold standard around the world knows that from Roman times onward, using gold as currency is far more problematic. Gold as an INVESTMENT has proven disastrous over the last 200 years, other than short, tiny bubbles.
Its only use for an investor is a small part of a portfolio wherein its non-correlation with other asset classes might reduce the risk of the overall portfolio, but even there other commodities are better.
"other than short, tiny bubbles"
it just might be one of those tiny (or not so tiny) bubbles... as to modern portfolio theory and diversification - puhleeze, could it have been any more discredited