Sale at 118 Washington Place

Taxes are "low" too - 20k, and not likely to go up because it was converted to 1-fam a long time ago. As long as renovation is kept to the cosmetics, assessment will be capped.

A little googling reveals the provenance - estate sale. Pretty cool provenance. Kinda sad - old-time Jane Jacobs-esque Villagers.

I've lived on the UWS since I moved here but this could get me to move if I could sell my place.

I've no idea about value at this price point or town homes, but the location is nice (as you know). Place will surely require substantial renovation. Every ceiling looks stained with leaks or cracks and many walls have similar indications of 'issues'. Kitchen hasn't obviously been touched in decades--cabinets or warped and rust-stained which suggests to me rest of place has been similarly poorly maintained. But some details look very nice. As does outdoor space. Guess if someone offered to buy it for me and give me money to fix it up I'd be very very happy living there. :)

I'm too lazy to actually go check it out. Maybe the pictures are deceptive. Looks to be "move in" condition. Anyone seen this place? I could certainly live with outdated but functioning kitchens and baths for a year while I plan reno.

Is the location fabulous or just good? I don't have a good sense of the Village, block by block.

Looks as if the Federal detail is gone, but what's there isn't bad. I like that wide old stove, the linoleum counters, the sunroom, and even the conventual stained glass. When it's your own whole house, it doesn't have to be spiffy. No clue what it's worth.

Looking further, it's asking the least of the (few) GV townhouses. Some are already renovated, but all seem to be shallow with little or no garden.

As someone who lives around the block, I would say that the location is good, but not fabulous. In the central village or WV, generally speaking, I would rather be between 5th and 6th or west of 7th avenue.

Its a beautiful block and convenient; you are a half block from both the 1 and the E,A,D,B and F. However because of the proximity to Sixth Avenue there may be more tourists and transients around than you would find ideal. I know you have kids, PS 41 is great...its a little bit of a walk but worth it. When I was young the Middle (called Intermediate at the time) school was not so hot but I think they've changed that whole system.

BTW, what did you Google to find the owners names? I think I may have gone to PS 41 with their kids but I'm not sure. When I googled the addressed I didn't come up with anything relevant.'

If you look closely at the walls and ceilings you'll see there is evidence of water damage on many. I also doubt, that in person, the kitchen would appear serviceable. Lack of bathroom photos would similarly lead me suspect they are likely unacceptable. Would love to know what it looks like in person--and if anyone wants to buy it for me per my prior post/invitation.

The owners were the Fritsches, who own Lyrichord. They both received longish and interesting obits in the Village Voice.

It's an idle dream, kind of entrenched in our place now and not particularly feeling the urge to put it on the market. I have a feeling (as unattuned as I am to the Village TH market) that the estate will now start getting bids close to the new ask.

30yrs, you out there? Would appreciate your input as you know the Village well.

"Taxes are "low" too - 20k, and not likely to go up because it was converted to 1-fam a long time ago. As long as renovation is kept to the cosmetics, assessment will be capped. "

If we're talking about relative to houses in GV, I don't think taxes are low. Not high, but more average than low. If you are talking about 'as opposed to a similarly priced and sized new construction condo", then yes, but that's apples and oranges.

"As someone who lives around the block, I would say that the location is good, but not fabulous. In the central village or WV, generally speaking, I would rather be between 5th and 6th or west of 7th avenue."

As someone else who lives around the block, I'd actually rate it one step below that. That whole little area WSW to 4th South, W 4th to Christopher sometimes seems better than it is when you look at it during quiet times of the day, but tends to get a lot of street traffic (both car and foot) which has a negative impact, especially on townhouses where "everything" is on a low floor.

Comments:

1) I haven't seen it, but from the pics and ad copy, it hasn't been renovated in 40 years. Expect high $ to fix it up.
2) Look at the room sizes: there's a reason why that "center hall and stairway configuration" is "rare". You don't have one decent sized living room in the whole place. the largest room is the kitchen.
3) From what I've seen, it's been a tough few years in the Townhouse market in GV (where I live). The HIGH end one's have sold for very big $, but there's been a reasonably large number of small TH's for about the past 10 years that have had trouble selling even as the market went through the roof.
4) Owning a TH isn't like owning a Coop or Condo: there's no super to take care of stuff (unless you hire one and pay 100% of his salary), there's no managing agent, the boiler, roof, etc. needs to be replaced and you pay for all of it...... I think that's one of the reasons the big bucks one's sell and the lower end one's don't. Another reason is to gut a whole townhouse isn't nearly the same as gutting an apartment: when you're talking about "gut renovating" an apartment, you're not replacing structural items. When you gut a TH, you learn what a gut reno REALLY is. If you think you can gut reno an apartment for $200/sf, double that (or more) to gut reno a whole TH.
5) I do agree that at the current price, there's a good chance that someone who has been waiting around to buy a TH in GV till prices came down may now find this attractive. but that's almost always the problem with the strategy of buying the bottom of any market: you usually end up betting into a situation which sounded better than it was.
6) Take a look at 122 Washington 2 doors down and ask "what would it take to turn 118 into 122? " and use your judgment about the values of each of these two (knowing that 122 started out in January at $7,450,000, and didn't sell thru the spring while dropping the price to $6,495,000)

Location: I defer to you on this, so it's not prime but okay.
Taxes: I haven't made a survey of 1-fam taxes in GV area. For the UWS, 20k would be cheap for an equivalently sized 1-fam S. of 96th.
1) Yeah, please someone go see it in the flesh so we have better intel.
2) This is the tradeoff when it comes down to TH living unless you have a wide TH (out of my budget unless I want to deal with RC/RS tenants).
3) Very interesting point. I don't know GV market at all, but this would echo the TH market on the UWS. Non-park block and non-20ft wide THs always much cheaper/square foot. Not very many 1-fam good condition THs ever on the market, so it's hard to the comps for 1-fam THs.
4) Not a deterrent to me, personally as I have experience with both. Interesting point you make that people would deal with spending more on maintenance/household budget for a more $$$ TH vs. a less $$$ TH. The question is: is this a complete gut ala converting a multi-fam to a single-fam or is it more cosmetic?
5) Another good point. Just because it's "cheap", is this worth it?
6) At ask, I know I could turn this into 122 for less $, even if it is a gut reno.

Just for perspective, the 28'6" at 18 W 10th (30yrs' neighbor, I think) went for $1.6M in 1993. Don't know the condition.

One thing this property has going for it over other GV townhouses is the 'depth' of the property at 18' x 42' with a 72' deep lot.

You're getting a lot more house for your money compared to some others on the market in the neighborhood.

237 W. 12th St. 18 x 30, on a lot only 38' deep
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/432212-townhouse-237-west-12th-street-west-village-new-york

13 Commerce St. 21 x 30, with a 40' deep lot.
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/407983-townhouse-13-commerce-west-village-new-york

122 Washington may have dropped to $6.5MM but Property Shark reports a 12/06 most recent sale of $900K, so someone is looking to make a nice killing if that was an arms length transaction.

I don't think that you can compare a gut reno of a coop to a townhouse. Just the insurance requirements of the coop can run into tens of thousands of dollars. That money can be spent on the renovation, rather than appeasing the board.

You can hire people separately, rather than paying a general contractor who will up all prices by X% just because he/she can. If I have a problem with a pipe, I don't have to call the super to get it repaired for $200+, but can call a handyman who will cost $50-100..

That is my perspective though.

Also, after you've gutted, you don't have to worry about much of anything for years to come. In a coop, just imagine having to replace all of the pipes...

AB: for a full gut reno of a townhouse, assuming that you are not the GC and not actually laboring on it yourself, 300+/sqft is a very reasonable number. Almost impossible to get it down to <200/sqft unless you start taking on the role of a quasi GC and sub-bing jobs out yourself.

Agree that you can get things done cheaper, if you need things repaired but you need more than a rudimentary understanding of the actual repair itself, so it gets done correctly.

"122 Washington may have dropped to $6.5MM but Property Shark reports a 12/06 most recent sale of $900K, so someone is looking to make a nice killing if that was an arms length transaction."

Divorce transfer between spouses.

"Just for perspective, the 28'6" at 18 W 10th (30yrs' neighbor, I think) went for $1.6M in 1993. Don't know the condition."

It was:
a) an estate sale
b) one of th reasons why there was a lot of pressure to force co-brokering listings immediately (I can't say more, you'll have to infer)
c) Bought for a rich kid by daddy, and then dumped millions into the reno.

"One thing this property has going for it over other GV townhouses is the 'depth' of the property at 18' x 42' with a 72' deep lot."

You're picking the worst of the worst to compare it to: the 'standard lot" is 100 ft deep.

"This is the tradeoff when it comes down to TH living unless you have a wide TH (out of my budget unless I want to deal with RC/RS tenants). "

This is a common misconception: people often pay way too much attention to the lot width and then nix a property without paying closer attention to all the details: a perfect example is a 16' wide Italianate: they are mostly built much deeper, so you get the staircase in the center and full length rooms which are also the full width of the building. My living room is about 25' x 15'6" in a "16 footer". What you lose are the "sidecar" rooms which really tend not to be too useful anyway.

"You're picking the worst of the worst to compare it to: the 'standard lot" is 100 ft deep."

Lot sizes in Greenwich Village are smaller. Anything 100 ft. deep in GV is over or near 8 figures, and most of those even those fall just shy of 100. I chose comparisons based on price range.

If you want to look at a comparable lot size, check out 18 Grove Street.
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/367131-townhouse-18-grove-street-west-village-new-york
Bigger house at 20' x 44' with a 68' deep lot. Building does not appear to be renovated anytime recent and ask price is at $7.9MM. At $2098 psf that comes in much higher than $1233 psf at 118 Washington Place. I don't know how the location compares.

30yrs, I agree with you that a 16-18 footer gives you perfectly good room width and length esp. if you have the right stair configuration. Ditto on the fact that you only get 2 good size rooms per floor anyway, unless you're talking 25-footers. However, there IS a difference between a 16 (window side) X 25 (wall side) room and a 19-20-21(window side) room X 20ish room (wall side). Just because the room dimensions are the same doesn't mean that the feel of the room is the same. What IS arguable is whether this is worth more than a thousand dollars/sqft. The market up here on the UWS would seem to indicate that it is worth that much more. Of course, that has to do with bragging rights and "the air up there" ... There was a great article in NYT a few years ago about how TH owners' egos factored into the price/sqft paid for wider THs.

"However, there IS a difference between a 16 (window side) X 25 (wall side) room and a 19-20-21(window side) room X 20ish room (wall side). Just because the room dimensions are the same doesn't mean that the feel of the room is the same"

While I absolutely agree with this statement, I'll add that I've seen a whole number of the former which were the better looking one's. one of the biggest selling points in townhouses in Manhattan has always been "grandeur". That's why 25 footer are always at such a premium. But I don't think it's fair to talk about the 25 footer in this discussion, because they are really a different animal: they are almost all "mansions" as opposed to simply "townhouses" and it would be rare that someone with the budget range for a 25 footer would be looking at anything less than "totally grand (like, in this case, 3 times the price of this house?). I think the better area for comparison is 20 x 40 Federals vs 16 x 60 Italianates, or other similar comparisons of close to like-priced houses. I guess what I'm saying is that within a given price range for a neighborhood, a lot of people would be surprised at how much "grander" some of the narrower houses were than the wider one's, depending more on style of house and vintage than just width.

nyc10023 have you seen this one:

http://www.townhouseexperts.com/photos/249specsheet.pdf

No, but I know a little of the sales history. The current owner bought it very recently, took out a loan larger than purchase price from a bank (Wellspring?) with a tiny loan portfolio ... Started gutting and now it's on the market.

It's a lovely old house, but the sad truth is you'd be living right in the middle of bridge-and-tunnel central every Friday and Saturday night.

You would be surrounded by far more New Jerseyians when you stepped out your door than by New Yorkers.

I just sounded like what you were looking for: park block, fixer upper, potentially good floorplan afterward, desperate seller, etc.

I don't think I agree with the location issue: we owned a floorthru not much more than a year ago which was almost right next door and no one had any issues with the location 9especially park block headed east - low street traffic). the funniest thing is that almost the entire Coop turned over within one year (4 out of 5 units).

30yrs - it was exactly what I was looking for. But I got there a little late - it went into contract right around the time I was making a big (and foolish) RE investment (luckily got out of it even stevens - bless those rich trust fund kids!) A little bit of a gamble in turns of the location, because of the school zoning.

I walked by this last evening. There are three townhouses on this block for sale. Granted, not all in the same class. But still -- is this normal?

One other question: 118 has this stucco-like facade (I'm not an architect), not brick or limestone. If you buy this place, are you stuck with that? Or, is something like that fixable?

30yrs: since the debt on property is 6m and the sales price (in '08, 4.5m-ish), isn't this a short sale? And doesn't that mean that there will be complications negotiating the deal?

Skinny: It's brownstone painted white. It can be stripped.

30yrs: I'll you which TH I'm lusting after. http://realestate.nytimes.com/sales/detail/297-0015927/125-West-78th-Street-Townhouse-New-York-NY-10024. I saw it when it was priced at 3.2ish (at ht of market, didn't sell).

It's one of the famous red & white "Moorish" houses on 78th bet. Columbus & Amsterdam. Great writeup a while ago in NYT Streetscapes column a while ago. Effectively a park block because 78th ends at Columbus. I have seen this and what I wouldn't give to be able to convince my more conservative half to move there.

The problem (not a problem for me) is the RC tenant upstairs in a rear studio. I would be happy to leave him there, or relocate him to front of garden floor, rebuilding the stoop so that we would have a separate entrance.

My partner is completely opposed to sharing the space with any kind of entrenched RC/RS tenant, convinced that it would be extremely aggravating.

"30yrs - it was exactly what I was looking for. "

Well, as usual, I'm fairly impressed with myself (hey, looking at a few posts by a guy and pickingexactly what he was looking for? What do you call that?) SFSF (SFSF= Stupid Fucling Smiley Face)

"30yrs: since the debt on property is 6m and the sales price (in '08, 4.5m-ish), isn't this a short sale? And doesn't that mean that there will be complications negotiating the deal?"

nyc10023 I thought you were smarter than that: THAT MEANS IT'S AN OPPORTUNITY FOR A SMART GUY LIKE YOU TO BEAT OUT ALL THE LAZY ASSES WHO WON'T MAKE THE EFFORT TO JUMP THROUGH THE HURDLES OF A DIFFICULT TRANSACTION. No pain, no gain, baby. And think of this: once it's a short sale, the seller ain't getting shit anyway, so often they won't care as much about the price because none of it goes to them (the time they will care is when the short sale includes some "pay off the loss over time" provision from the lender. Is there a number you want it for? If I can get it for you at that number, would you say I deserved a commission?

I agree with your spouse about the RC tenant. If you can't relocate them, what are you going to do? make a whole second staircase inside the owner's unit, or walk around "common" hallways in your PJ's? I wouldn't worry about RS tenants at this point for your purpose, only RC. The one thing the L&T courts have been pretty harsh on RS tenants is when the owner really is going to make it into a 1 family again. They've been losing almost every single case I've seen lately trying to hold out. But RC tenants you can't kick out for the same reason. Big dif.

30yrs: Kinda, sorta what I was looking for - 84th street is about 5 blocks too far north for my partner, even if it is a park block. The other thing (I haven't bothered looking to see if they've cleared this) is that it was an SRO, and the current owners had to get that sorted out.

Hey, if you can get me a vacant park block TH that is vacant between 79th & 69th for under 4m, I'd definitely pay you commission.

The amount "forgiven" by the owner is taxable income, so it would behoove them to reduce it.

In the case of the RC tenant and that specific property, I'd take 3 floors and rebuild the stoop for his access if he wouldn't relocate.

Agree with the RS tenant situation. OTOH, they can really drag things out, which delays renovation.

"The amount "forgiven" by the owner is taxable income, so it would behoove them to reduce it. "

What's the over/under on the odds of Obama/Frank et al getting that changed pretty soon?

What was the final price? It's not on ACRIS yet...but I did not know if S.E. premium users could see it. Thank you.

$3,850,000 or $1,234/sf or 33% off 1/09 ask.

But interesting that they got full ask of the final asking price.

it's not that interesting. any townhouse in the west village for $3.8 is going to attract a lot of attention. this one--which is basically a nice, decent-sized house with a reasonable garden on a decent block is just well below any comps in the area. even if it needs a million dollar renovation, the price is still well south of any comps.