How to price a townhouse? What do you think of this one?

You have left out the crucial piece of info that I would use to price a townhouse, which is frontage. IMHO, 20' by 50' is worth a heck of a lot more than 16' by 62'.

ali r.
{downtown broker}

Not just width, but length :)

And 100k renovation? That won't get you very far in a TH, unless you're talking just a paint job, and very minor cosmetic fixes.

1) Location - 30yrs is the Village expert here, not me.
2) 3 stories - hmm, you'd likely only get a yield of 4 upper floor bedrooms, which is not a lot.
3) Plumbing, electrical, mechanical systems? Central A/C/heat?
4) Conditions of walls, stairs, floors, facade, etc.?

You've left a lot out. Not knowing anything about the location, I'd say that over 4m for a 3-story TH needing (likely) more than a 100k renovation is ambitious in this market.

I remember those Commerce St. townhouses (3 stories, maybe a little shy of 3000 sqft), shallow lots, going for mid 3-s at the HEIGHT of the market.

The frontage is 20 feet, I don't know the length-age, I would have to guess.

Condition is seriously not good. nyc10023, I honestly don't know what renos cost in Manhattan, but yeah you're right. Everything in this place needs some work, basically. So if we figure $25K per bathroom?, $50K for three kitchens? Upgrade plumbing and electric.... No central air at the moment..... oh my gooooodness.....

Does the big back yard add much to the value with town houses? Any way to figure that on a square foot basis, do you think?

Thank you again, wise ones!

{Manhattan real estate agent.}

$200 psf is a starting point - so roughly $600K.

Rough guide to backyard value - recently Curbed (?) quoted a broker who specialized in TH saying 1/3 to 1/2 of the psf price on the bldg. Not unusual to see WV or GV TH well north of $2K on a psf basis.

There are several shells on the market right now: IIRC, 53 and 55 Jane as well as 60/62 Jane. 11 Commerce (or was it 9) was on the market as a shell. I think there are 28 or 29 townhouses on StreetEasy right now, 7 in GV, 21 in WV. $4M seems like the floor on the smallest places (<3K sf and 3 bdrm), and $6.4-8.9 seems like the sweet spot for most 4-5 bdrms - and a lot of those need a reno or have had only cosmetic updates. The 8 figure places all seem to have undergone gut renos and/or restorations with high end updates on all the mechanicals, kitchens and baths.

ABOVE s/b $200 psf for reno.

"$200 psf is a starting point - so roughly $600K."

There are almost always hidden costs associated with renovations. Many experts advise people to take the figure they believe the work will cost and add 15% to it. So I would budget at least $700k for the work. Plus you have to add in the non-construction costs: permits, architect, dumpster rental, etc.

For the past number of years (including the "boom years") small footprint TH's with little or no rear yards have been discounted HEAVILY from the rest of the TH market.

And has been said before (although not quite like this) there is no such thing as a TH which "needs" a $100,000 renovation: it either NEEDS a lot more than that, or you're just talking cosmetics.

And we need to define "basement" because the legal definition may not be what people here are thinking of. the garden floor of an awful lots of TH's is a basement.

"You have left out the crucial piece of info that I would use to price a townhouse, which is frontage. IMHO, 20' by 50' is worth a heck of a lot more than 16' by 62'."

You'd be surprised. 16x62 is probably going to be an Italianate house which will be fairly grand, whereas 20x50 could be any old Federal or other.

Bottom line: we need MUCH more information than is being given to do a proper evaluation.

Fluter - I assume the owner is asking you to support his 4m figure. Why is he asking you (no offense), and not one of the more experienced Village TH brokers for an appraisal?

Because they wouldn't tell hm what he wants to hear?

Yeah, I wonder how long has Fluter been in RE if he states that bathrooms and 3 kitchens have to be redone and he estimates 100k...

she's a she and she's been extremely upfront about the fact that she is new to all of this.

Ok, got it.

Thank you so much, BoerumHill and 30yrs and Mr. The President, this is super helpful info!!

nyc10023, did you know, brokers are not licensed to do appraisals. One needs a special license to be an appraiser. Brokers literally cannot call their analysis an "appraisal" without risking their sales licenses.

The owner has his price in mind, and all I'm trying to decide is whether he's being reasonable or not.

It sounds to me that he's being completely reasonable, but what happens in this market over the next 12 months is anyone's guess.

FYI Fluter is a she, and new to being an agent in Manhattan but not new to real estate being as she is a small-time investor (seven properties total, but only one in Manhattan, which is of course a unique place)!

Thanks again, everyone, I owe you all a drink.

Another very important thing to consider is the tax status of the TH, and the tax consequences of any proposed renovation. Here is a horrible story of how a couple shot themselves in the foot (with the encouragement of their lender) by converting a TH to a 4 Family: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/20/realestate/20cov.html?scp=1&sq=In%20Brownstones,%20Taxes%20Suddenly%20Rise&st=cse

From a tax efficiency standpoint, you want a 1-3 Family with good "bones" requiring only cosmetic improvements.