Striver's row

I'm a big admirer of the architecture of Striver's Row. Not all townhouses are equal, especially in original interior finishes. Several of them also have garages, which is a big plus IMO.

Thanks 10023. I love the architecture as well. The house I am considering is one of the nicest ones, but needs some work. I am afraid there is a lack of amenities compared with the area below 125th. I wonder how much could the downturn delay the recovery in Harlem.

I did a quick search on SE - one on 138th, the other on 139th, both with garages. From an esthetic POV, I prefer the one on 138th - I love the pinkish-beige brick. I was looking in Harlem 5 years ago, and found it overpriced even then. No way to tell how far prices will fall, or if real amenities will ever come to Harlem.

had dinner at native the other day as part of a reevaluation of central harlem... liked what I saw... the place seemed more diverse than 6 months ago and seemed to have more pedestrian traffic... problem with harlem remains the fact that at current prices you are buying 25-40% downside risk in the form of either a future short sale if you did in fact have to sell in the near term or in lack of appreciation for 5 years or more... don't pay more than 1.25 for a 4 story rennovated townhouse... btw the morocan fried chicken was not bone in... just a pounded chicken breast in some spicy batter... a bit emblematic of the hazards of gentrification.

Maybe it's my tastebuds, but I've never liked soul food.

Gimme a fiery tonkotsu ramen anyday. Or a good chicken katsu doused with curry.

ah...go south.

Not that simple. I don't like collard greens, period. Fried chicken, maybe, but I couldn't eat it every day. Mac & cheese (or what passes for it) - I make better mac & cheese at home.

Nativo is anything but soul food.

that is true, no one can eat it every day. on the other hand, not much that you can eat every day except for the boring good stuff.

Mimi, Harlem fascinates me 'tho I don't think it's really for me. Someone on SE said recently, re: Harlem gentrification: 'If it didn't gentrify during one of the largest RE bubbles in history, it ain't gonna happen'. Hard to dispute, I'd say.

Mimi, have you seen this? http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/building/220-west-148th-street-new_york

It's from this New York Magazine article: http://nymag.com/realestate/features/59620/

We're looking at places on FDB up near Striver's Row. Unfortunately we can't afford a townhouse. We're totally okay with the area and plan on raising on kids there.
I don't particularly like there are so many shuttered brownstones on some of the cross streets in the mid 130s. But that is what makes it more affordable. I do think that it will come around eventually.

We have looked at 3 or 4 apartments within a few Blocks of Strivers Row. 2 of the brokers were very nice, and we ended up putting in offers on some places. However another broker made us feel uncomfortable, sort of like we would not be welcome in the building or neighborhood. We're basically the poster-children for gentrification. It's possible that we're oversensitive about the whole thing but I don't think so.

I guess I'm a gentrifier myself. I did a little investigating regarding who is buying the brownstones in one nice specific block. The vast majority of new owners were not white. The gentrification is totally multiracial, which makes it interesting. Money, not race, is what is gentrifying Harlem.

This is true. We also are pretty young and clearly not from the neighborhood which doesn't help things.

"If it didn't gentrify during one of the largest RE bubbles in history, it ain't gonna happen'. Hard to dispute, I'd say."

It's going to happen - it just takes time because of rent stabilization. As people move out of their apartments the landlord renovates and rents to college educated people. Eventually it will become like the UWS but it's going to take 20 years.

As for Strivers - OVERRATED!! - what a terrible neighborhood. You're much better off south of 125th or even on Convent and 144th.
Strivers is for people who would live in Westchester but want a shorter commute. They have cars and never shop or even walk in the neighborhood.
If you drive to work and just don't want to have to drive too far (and of course if you don't have any kids because the schools are deplorable) then maybe Strivers - but it's not for me.

considered Strivers because of the realtor hype

After several visits to the area I would say that it does not have much going for it other than parking available with the townhouses. The surrounding area has dropped significantly, and even in Strivers the variety in price in 2007 was impressive -- 600-700k to 2.5 million asking for a townhouse. Did not see much selling higher than a million, and the ones that sold in that range are out on foreclosure today.

There is also hype for the Hamilton/Convent area. Again, after multiple visits there we decided that while the buildings can be nice, it does not make much sense at 0.5* the price many are asking, relative to below 125th.

I am concerned that even below 125th, where we are buying (in probably the best area) prices will drop below what people recently paid for lottery units - i.e. below what we are paying. The 20 year horizon may be ok, and I am not interested in next year, but am concerned that even in the 10 year horizon prices in these areas or for that matter in the UWS may not be any higher than what you would get as a "deal" today.

Yes, major buyer remorse, but I have been walking around in S. C. Harlem a lot more now and the number of new, unrented, unsold units is spectacular -- just as impressive as when rows of shells lined the streets in the 1990s. More are still being built, and the commercial brokers -- Massey Knakal and Marcus Millichap, are putting their new listings 30-40% below the comparable listing on SE or through residential brokers.

Vacant Land that sold in 2007 for 1.3 million is already marked below 600k with no buyers. My offer at 300k was not scoffed at. However, no construction loans for a townhouse are available unless you pay hard money.
Scary.

Personally, I would bet (and am betting) on Harlem to make a large recovery in the next 5 years, unless the economy keeps tanking. Here's why:

1)Many people purchased there in the past 5 years who are not going to just up and leave because things got sour. They think things will get better, and as long as they have a 30year fixed and keep their jobs, there is much incentive to stay.

2)As cheap as Harlem is compared to other places, it is still not a cheap place to purchase by any means when compared to the rest of the country. Most places in it are still unaffordable for most young people starting out except for HDFC. If prices continue to drop I am sure that people will snatch up those townhouses and other apartments. To many people, especially those who rent on the UWS or MH, Harlem is a place they would consider purchasing in, when they cannot afford the ridiculous prices in their neighborhoods. It is one of the few affordable areas remaining in Manhattan, and the only one centrally located. I could even see people who had been pushed out to the suburbs returning to purchase there as long as they're currently renting.

3)If you walk through the neighborhood, you can see how things have gentrified. I am shocked by some of the changes I've seen in the past year alone. Morningside park is a good example. I can not see how all of this will revert in the short term, but maybe if there is a prolonged depressed economy.

That's my argument and I'm sticking to it for now.

Also forgot to include the columbia expansion, if/when that gets off the ground.

mmarquez110 - Harlem has reached the tipping point - long gone are the crack days - but the issue is that is will change slower for now. It use to be that landlords would pay people to move out of a rent stabilized apartment, renovate, and jack up the rents to someone off of Craigslist. The Craigslist renter didn't want to live in Harlem but prices forced them North of 96th.
Now with lower market rents and more vacancy that game for landlords has slowed - sure it still happens here and there - but the offers to the tenants are much lower and landlords just are less aggressive right now. Currently landlords in Harlem are much more likely to rent to immigrants than Craigslisters as the immigrants will pay more. And because of that landlords are much less likely to nicely renovate their apartments.
But when the economy turns it will happen again - you'll get another wave of new hires, landlords will put granite and stainless in renovated units again and slowly but surely it will become more like the UWS. Columbia will help. 125th St (when something finally gets built there) will help - the redevelopment of East 126th St will help - Costco will help - etc etc. But the thing that will help the most is it's proximity to the jobs of Manhattan, that it's still "in" Manhattan, that people feel safe walking the streets at night, and that the architecture is spectacular.
If I were a buyer in Harlem the thing I would focus the most on is improving the public schools. Once the public schools are accepted by college educated parents the change will happen significantly faster.

I looked at Strivers Row before I bought my place, and even though I thought that the area was beautiful, I decided to purchase closer to 125th, simply because of the stores and amenities available there. There really isn't very much in terms of retail/convenience stores in the upper 130s, and I don't believe that many new places will open in the near future. To me, Strivers feels more "suburban" that the area around 125th Street. Like Mimi, I prefer Mount Morris Park, but then again, I can certainly see why Strivers would appeal to certain buyers.

Jazzman - Other than price, the #1 reason I want to move to Harlem is that it is still Manhattan.
As for the public schools, that's a tough one. We intend on sending our kids to whatever we're zoned for, but I just assumed the majority of people will opt for private or charter schools. We can't afford private and wouldn't think it was worth it anyways. Perhaps economic struggles will cause more people to send their kids to the public schools, improving them.

i wouldn't even consider strivers. i feel it's in the middle of nowhere (given my current lifestyle and interests). if i stay in the area (nyc, a big if), within a couple of years i'd check for a townhouse hopefully as close to morningside park as possible, otherwise close to mt morris (but strongly prefer morningside to marcus garvey).

townhouses in real distress imho will not show up in big numbers till 2012. so if something shows on distress now, the 5 guys interested might end up overbidding each other. i'm assuming here that the economy doesn't recover but gets worse (unemployment wise) with much lower participation rate in the labor force in a permanent basis.

harlem's average household income, the last time i checked, was $23k/year. so the neighborhood will keep on having the issues that are typical of a more poor than middle class population. no matter how many middle class people move in, it's not gonna move the needle much when you have huge projects in every direction. those that can pay for a townhouse in the village will not ever consider harlem imho. if those townhouses are going down in price, there's a lot of room for townhouses in harlem to go down still... i might be very wrong in my views here, it's just how i see it.

"If I were a buyer in Harlem the thing I would focus the most on is improving the public schools. Once the public schools are accepted by college educated parents the change will happen significantly faster. "

very true. if some of the public ones keep on improving, they might be a good option for those middle class couples that cannot (and wouldn't want to) afford going private. a lot of the middle class moms in public elementary school in harlem are renters though. wonder whether being a renter or owner changes the degree of parental involvement in the school.

Admin, why do you prefer morningside park to Marchus Garvey?
I basically agree with all of the posters here.

just like it better and it's more convenient. go to the columbia area on a daily basis. never go to spanish harlem. just cause of how our daily life is designed i guess.

but, that said, marcus garvey's townhouses seem to be less thin and dark that those around morningside park. i guess that's the trade off.

Also an admirer of Strivers Row architecture, both interiors and exteriors. I especially like that a few homes are attached on only one side which provides extra light and a side yard. The garages are also a huge plus. However, given the historical significance of Strivers Row, I find that the district is not as well-kept as one would expect. The alleys leading to the garages look unkempt and ragged. The sidewalks in front of the houses lack sufficient greenery. You would think that a community association would have landscaped the area. There was a time when Strivers Row commanded a premium, but since other areas of Harlem have emerged, SR homes are now priced comparable to other prime townhouse areas. I prefer Ham Heights myself but it's just a matter of personal preferences.

"The sidewalks in front of the houses lack sufficient greenery. "

many sidewalks in harlem still look like nobody could care less. the lack of trees on entire blocks still puzzles me. did the squatters use the trees for heating during winter back in the day? it's hard to believe that those trees were never there.

i 100% agree with the comment: 'If it didn't gentrify during one of the largest RE bubbles in history, it ain't gonna happen'. instead of more progress, i'd be surprised if it doesn't go a little bit backwards with a long recession.

mimi, about marcus garvey area, what i like actually is lenox ave. so if the walk towards columbia would be through lenox, that would be uplifting and i wouldn't care. now, imagine through 116th, which is an eyesore at many points imho. not uplifting but depressing (graceline depresses me, in fact, so it's not only about decayed buildings but sometimes crappy new ones don't give me hope). this is 100% personal though.

Strivers Row has beautiful architecture- but feels isolated when considering all the massive improvements that have taken place throughout much of Harlem. Pricing aside, I do think that Convent Ave in the 140's is a better location to live in than Striver's Row. When I walk around Strivers, I feel like the surrounding area is isolated and still a very long way to being a nice neighborhood. There have been lots of improvements in the last few years- but still a long way to go.

FYI- Columbia is completing a church that they displaced for the expansion on 147th and Broadway. Eventually they are supposed to build housing on this block for displaced residents. So the answer is yes, the university is moving forward with the expansion plans- although I do not know if this phase is on schedule or not.

semerun - Columbia is also doing utility work on their site - it will happen the issue is what will be built (all of the plan or part of it) and when.

admin - I think you overestimate the number of projects in all of Harlem. I can't think of one from 135th to 155th (on top of the hill). That's a huge arrear and I'd be surprised if the UWS or UES had that many contiguous blocks without a project.
Certainly the east 100s will forever be ruined until those buildings are sold or demolished but West Harlem is full of townhouses and a bunch of rent stabilized buildings.

"Convent Ave in the 140's " is not isolated? convent between 144th and 145th was voted one of the best 5 blocks in the city.

Admin, I think you read my post wrong. I love Convent Ave in the 140's.

"Certainly the east 100s will forever be ruined until those buildings are sold or demolished"

i'm not pro demolishing any project. they serve their purpose, the aesthetics of them are challenging though. they can always be kept well, with nice gardens (the size of the windows is what bothers me the most, prison cell like).

that said, maybe you are right. and their height is what help overstating them. several times watching the view from a high point the quantity and how massive they are shocked me. both at columbia level and more uptown in fort george looking south, the area you are talking about is right in the middle. but it might be that their surroundings are much lower in height. columbia's expansion is going to be literally surrounded by big and tall projects.

"Admin, I think you read my post wrong. I love Convent Ave in the 140's."

sorry about that misreading semerun. i meant that those few blocks are nice (convent) but not the neighborhood. it does feel isolated to me. it could be ideal though for somebody that works at home and doesn't need much services (like an empty nester writer).

One of the best parts about 144 and Convent is that the A B C and D trains will get you to civilized retail in 15 minutes. It's not uncommon for many Americans to have to drive 15 minutes to get to their retail.

Having a garage which is attainable on Strivers Row and virtually no where else in Manhattan (without an additional charge that can add 1/3 to your monthly carrying costs) would also be very valuable to a reverse commuter, especially combined with easy access to the GWB and Westchester.

I don't see schools improving in Harlem over the next 10 years, gentrification or not. Even on the UWS, schools north of PS87 have not been improved as fast as you might expect. Up until this year, many schools were still taking kids out of catchment and school populations did not reflect the "middle class" demographic of their catchment.

Just look at PS165, smack in the middle of multi-million dollar apts and in a neighborhood that (to me) is extremely gentrified.

Even the good old "G&T" & pre-K strategy (to get parents in the building) has not worked at some schools to attract a wealthier population - notably PS191.

Another thing to note is that many families move up to Harlem once their school question has been settled. So their kids are all at more desirable UWS publics, G&Ts, citywides, Hunter or private schools. This is where the Striver's Row parking comes in handy.

Improving public schools is incredibly tough, especially when there are so many other options available. No one wants to feel like they're sacrificing anything about the their own childrens' education.

I wonder is Striver's does have a community feeling. Is there a gathering place, such as Settepani in Mt Morris area, where neighbors meet?

The garage thing is the salivation point for me about Strivers Row. I actually don't particularly like the exterior architecture, and I'm not familiar with the interior architecture.

But I think nyc10023 is right. Sometimes gentrification makes local schools worse. The general program at PS 166 (my alma mater) went from being quite strong to being ... less so as the area around it was gentrifying for families. Some would argue that the G&T program drew away involved parents and their issue, but I think at least as much to blame were upper-middle-income parents who heard how bad local public schools are and simply never took a look at them, in many cases preferring mediocre private schools (of which there is a plethora in Manhattan).

On another note, does having a garage mean not having a backyard, just a patio?

Some of them have a side garden. Others have a patio, or a deck on top of the garage.

Hi, mimi! Thanks for the explanation. Do you happen to know, when it's a deck on top of the garage, can you access it directly from the parlor level of the house?

I know that when these houses were built, the backyard was more for beating rugs and strangling chickens than for slugging back bloody marys, but still...

Some houses have a deck off the parlor. I'll send u a link privately.

Bump. Any other opinion? The choice between Mt Morris and Striver's is killing me. Mt Morris is young, sexy and hip compared to Strivers, but a garage seems incredible to have, since Harlem is not the nicest place on earth to park 3 blocks from your house at 2 in the morning after going to a party...

Hi Mimi- maybe you don't have to drive to the parties, then you don't have to park so late ?A garage would definitely be something special to have in nyc. Plus you get the benefit of being on a historical street which surely would be great for resale.We're looking at the Striver's area but not the street specifically.

We looked at some co-ops on madison near 118th and there were some parking lots on park ave that seemed reasonable. Not sure how far east you're looking to go. We're young and sexy (ha), but we were not particularly fond of madison or 5th avenue below mount morris. Too many people hanging out doing nothing during the day. Over by FDB is nicer, but that area is probably not going to be Harlem in 10 years, it will be an extension of Morningside Heights.