Difficulty getting appointments to see apartments

I work with out-of-town buyers all the time. Your lead time is completely appropriate. 24 to 48 hours notice is ideal, occasionally I can get people in on the same day. Occasionally--when the moon is in the seventh house and Jupiter aligns with Mars! But it does happen. Advance notice is way better.

I do not have any problems whatsoever with getting calls returned. NONE. I would say brokers return my calls 95+% of the time. Usually when I don't hear from them right away, I get a call a day or two later with an apology and a reason. I always call their cell phone numbers, which are normally in the broker databases.

This is true even though I function as a buyer's broker. Before I became licensed to do this work in late July, I heard rumors that buyer's brokers get snubbed by listing brokers. I personally have had NO problems with this, absolutely none, and in fact I am making new chums left and right and having a lot of fun with that, too. Listing brokers are eager and happy for me to bring my clients.

One thing that surely helps is that I make sure my buyers can afford what they're looking at, and I tell the brokers I call something about my buyers, including this vital fact.

If you have not yet received pre-approval from a lender, you should do this immediately, and then tell your broker to tell listing brokers this info when requesting appointments. That will open doors fast.

If a buyer cannot afford what they absolutely must have, or is not ready to buy emotionally, which is also extremely important, I refer them to another broker. Eventually they will probably buy but not with me. I am not interested in working with any buyer who needs private appointments to see 50 properties before buying--which is exactly what I did before I bought the house I'm sitting in right now! As a broker it's not an efficient use of my time. But I do take care of such people by referring them to a good and hungrier broker.

I would be concerned about any buyer who has seen 6 apartments, hand-picked herself/himself from Street Easy, and yet didn't like any of them, apparently. At this point, if I were your broker, I would seek some very specific feedback from you about what you didn't like about those 6 apartments, why they are unsuitable, so we don't keep making the same mistakes.

One other possibility is there is some error in Street Easy listings--of course. If listings you chose did not offer a link to the broker's web site, which should always be checked for verification purposes, then you and your broker could be working with bum data. My own apartment number is listed incorrectly in Street Easy's database.

{Manhattan real estate agent.}

Fluter made excellent points. To these, I would like to add a few.
1- It depends where you are looking as well. In some areas, small local brokers notoriously do not play well with other brokers. They would rather keep the whole commission to themselves.
2- As a seller, I called 6 brokers to list my place. One never called back. Two called back but couldn't make an appt to see my place, said they would back but didn't. Two called back ready to make an appointment. Only one was on time, so my own experience is not that different from yours.
There are a lot of dilettantes out there.

I think you have something else at play as well:

1) The large firms are kicking people out of their offices and making them work from home. not going into an office every day makes part timers less likely to be diligent about checking emails, etc.

2) With the extreme slowdown in deal volume, even brokers who have in office desk space are not spending nearly as much of their days working. I have walked into a bunch of offices lately where you used to see either bodies or at least evidence of some sort of activity, and now things are OBVIOUSLY slow. I think as a result, turn-around time on on everything, including responding to appointment requests, is longer.

3) I think many agents are over-using email to try to make appointments. I think a good number of appointment request emails are simply getting lost when brokers get 500 emails a day to sort thru and they try to get thru them as quickly as possible, sometimes losing "real" emails in the process. I know that between my various accounts, if you include spam, I get about 3,000 emails a day now.

Thanks for your replys. Fluter, I will admit that I was mostly disappointed by the listings that I, myself, had selected through Streeteasy. It seems that the beautiful photography of the listings were rather deceptive when it came to the actual apartments. Good work on the part of the photographer to lure people in, but disappointing from the time wasted on our end. Our issue is not pre-approval as we need no mortgage. Our agent knows this and still was unable to get call backs. We are ready and anxious to buy. But I must take issue with your suggestion that seeing 6 apartments should be all one needs to see. We are talking about spending over a million dollars. We'll see as many apartments as we need to see, thank you. One apartment we were interested in, the selling agent was unable to show us the rest of the building (storage space, basement, laundry, etc.) because she didn't have the keys. If a prospective buyer were coming back for a second look within a two day period, and had expressly asked about the storage space, wouldn't you be prepared to show them the rest of the building? I don't get it. Maybe it is me.

Only in NYC does a broker think showing you more than 6 apartments, in return for his/ner half of the $60.000+ commission, is too much time to spend.

Suggestion: come on a Sunday and go to every open house you can make it to. You'll see MANY more apartments than any broker could set up for in a single appointment and you'll get a wider view of the market in general is and what the trade-offs are. After doing this a couple of times, you'll get a much better feeling of a number of things:

1) What ads look like vs the actual apartments
2) What type of building you would really like to live in: the perfect apartment in the wrong building can often be a big mistake.
3) What size apartment really feels comfortable and what doesn't.
4) Things you never thought of that would matter in your decision and you never realized it would be an issue till you saw an apartment you liked, but would never by because of "X".
5) Converse of (4) things that you wouldn't have thought you cared about, but when you saw an apartment with it, you really want it now.

" I don't get it. Maybe it is me. "

No, it's not you. It's the breathtaking arrogance of many -- of course, not all -- brokers in Manhattan. Rejecting 6 apartments makes a buyer an untouchable? Please!!! In other areas of the real world, brokers sometimes work patiently with prospective buyers for years until something clicks. They consider it to be professional service. Sometimes their efforts are rewarded, sometimes they're not. That's why brokers make so much money per transaction when a sale finally goes through.

Buyers often need to see lots of properties with their brokers at the beginning, so that buyer and broker each begin to get a sense of what the buyer wants and needs. After that, a broker who knows what she's doing will be able to figure out what the client wants. This is especially true for a buyer from out of town. You have every right to expect that level of service. If a buyer's broker dumped me for wanting to see more than 6 properties, I'd say good riddance and would never recommend her to anyone else.

It is shameful for a broker to turn her nose up at working diligently for a client for 3% of a million dollars or more. That's a lot of money for one transaction, wherever you're working. Coming from a newbie broker this attitude is even more inappropriate and arrogant.

On the flip side, sellers are entitled to expect that their brokers will be eager to show their properties. If I were selling and not getting offers, I'd investigate what's going on with the agent.

I've watched RE brokers come and go in Manhattan for 40 years now. It's generally the ones who leave no stone unturned on behalf of their clients who are successful over the long haul. The dilettantes vanish. Since Ms. Newbie says she's not hungry enough to work hard for her clients, she will most likely be in the latter group.

Only in Manhattan would an all-cash buyer get the brush-off from a broker, especially in this economy. I've never seen another market in which brokers act as though they're in control, rather than the client, and where it's the client's fault for making the brokers work. Again, this doesn't apply to all Manhattan brokers, but it does to many and their numbers seem to have grown exponentially over the past decade.

Oh yeah, and these guys forgot the fact that all brokers know they'd be wasting their time showing anyone a listing now, based on any offering price vs where a property will actually trade at. They are doing both themselves and you a favor. Stay home and come back in 12 months. We may be ready for you then once everyone starts going into bankruptcy, although you'd probably be better off waiting until the banks can't handle holding off on the foreclosures, and until the bank loan renewals start ballooning in 2012. Or you can try and buy "cheap" now. Ha, $800 a foot seems right. My condolences to your heirs whose cash you'll be throwing into the abyss.

I certainly agree buyers can look at as many potential homes as they like. As I said, I literally looked at 50 houses over a year's time before we made an offer.

But a broker is supposed to save you time by quickly understanding what you are looking for, detecting listings that have been Photo-Shopped into science fiction, and making sure that if storage is important to you, you get a chance to look at it.

It would have been nice if I would have found a broker who was listening deeply to what we wanted back when we were house shopping. Or, even superficially. I remember being shown two-family houses even though we specifically requested a large one-family house. We both work at home a lot, we certainly did not want a tenant around, yet brokers kept showing us two-families.

BTW that is a weird thing that happened, Newbie....you're looking at apartments at that price point in buildings that have no staff?? I don't think so! Why didn't the broker just get the key from a staff person?

Brokers are independent business people and get to run their business any way they like, so long as it is legal and ethical and agreeable to whomever they are reporting to. Just like all of you reading this, who have businesses of your own.

An attorney does not have to accept a case, and a conscientious attorney will refer a client to another qualified attorney if the client is not someone the attorney feels he or she can help.

A conscientious broker does the same. It's as simple as that. It has nothing to do with arrogance or laziness, it has everything to do with having the time to provide high-quality and intelligent service to the clients one does have.

If a would-be buyer can't afford to purchase yet, or is not emotionally ready to buy, I can't help them. If I discover this is the case, I refer them to another broker who is well-qualified and who wants to spend time with them. This is the professional thing to do.

{Manhattan real estate agent.}

Please let me clarify once again that I think my broker was doing everything possible on her end. We really enjoy and respect our broker for her time, energy and patience. I'm just expressing frustration with the difficulty involved in viewing apartments and gleaning information. Streeteasy has helped tremendously, it is true. But there are other hurtles to jump.

30 years, you are wise, once again, in your suggestions. I am realizing now that I am not able to read apartment ads effectively and square footage feels very different in different layouts, buildings, lighting, etc., even when that square footage has not been dramatically overstated. I am interested by your implication that seeing apartments during the business week with a broker may not be as fruitful as visiting open houses. We have come over a few weekends and were unable to get appointments on Saturdays because we were told that brokers generally take Saturday off because they are working open houses on Sunday. So, beyond Sunday open houses, can you advise us of a strategy to make the most of our time spent.

Fluter, there are many apartments out there over a million dollars that do not have doormen, especially in smaller buildings. So no, I couldn't just ask the doorman. It was a keyed elevator and the selling broker did not have the necessary key.

We do value our broker's time. Over the past year we have made several bids that have not worked out for a plethora of reasons, so she knows we are serious. We always pay for the cabs, meals, etc., because we are cognizant that until a deal is made, she is paid nothing. I would feel better if I was compensating her for her time, but that is not how the system works. Moreover, our time is valuable too. We must pay for our travel and hotel in NYC while we search, so we want to make the most of our time as well. So any tips are greatly appreciated because what we are doing is not working.

i would suggest getting either a short term rental or a one year rental and combine exploring the city with a constant, dedicated search for the special place you ultimately want. unless money is not an object, it requires intense dedication to cut through the transactional clutter to discover a truly exceptional place. they're around; the real places where people will buy immediately because its obvious that they're worth it. looking for a place is frustrating, time confusing often just painful. trying to do it on a weekend visit must makes it worse.

dmag2020, I wish I could find $800 square foot apartments outside of harlem and the financial district but I don't think we are actually there yet. I still believe there is a big disconnect between what sellers are listing at and the reality of the market. It is my impression that this recent upturn in sales has had an effect on increased asking prices. Is it my imagination?

Oh, and dmag2020, maybe our heirs will inherit our NYC apartment and say how smart their parents were to buy during the 2009-2010 recession so they were not priced out forever. Ha.

columbiacounty, I think your suggestion is a good one. I think we are coming to understand that this is a much more complicated and time consuming project than we ever imagined and with rents coming down so much, it would be cheaper than our hotel bills!

Real estate in NYC is a blood sport. It's not uncommon for people to have to see 50-100 apartments to discover what truly matters to them vs. what they think matters on the outset.
I second 30-years' suggestion about open houses. You can see 6-8 places in a few hours, explore a neighborhood and educate yourself about your must-haves. It's the first lesson: real estate here is all about trade-offs. If I were starting from a blank slate, I most certainly wouldn't look at $/square foot as my #1 filter.

It just took me three contacts with Brown Harris Stevens to get a well-qualified and somewhat urgent buyer in to see a studio -- I'm finding that not unusual at all these days.

The problem is that a lot of people are shopping and not buying, and it's running agents into the ground.

In a world where there was infinite time, of course all seller's brokers would accomodate you, but in the current market -- I don't want to offend you, but you're not very hot leads. For one thing, "cash buyers from out-of-town" typically take forever to buy, because for them it's a luxury purchase with no urgency.

For another, if you are looking at 24 apartments in a Web catalog, you are obviously just starting your search. My guess is that you are three months away from buying, if not more.

30 years is right, at this point you should be going to open houses, learning what kind of inventory, part of town, etc. that you like.

Then your agent can call and say "I'm showing them five apartments and they're buying one" and that call is going to have more urgency and jump to the top of the queue.

ali r.
{downtown broker}

by all means go to open houses but remember they are a self selecting filter. highly unlikely that you will find your dream place that way. as you can see from ali r.'s comments, you have to prove that you're for real. amazing, isn't it?

Yes it is amazing, Columbiacounty. But what is more amazing is how one would know that one was seeing 5 apartments and buying one. My intentions are honorable. I want to buy. Will it be the next apartment or 25 from now, I really couldn't say. Front_porch, I love your posts, and I find you extremely intelligent. But how could I possibly know if I will buy an apartment when the pictures are deceiving, the square footage is incorrect, and I can't even see the whole building? Honestly, are people actually expected to buy before they get to weigh all the input? You are a broker who knows all the buildings. May I ask how long it took you to purchase this last time?

this is a very strange market. brokers routinely exaggerate (nice way to put it) size and amenities; leave out obvious problems and then are frustrated when potential buyers aren't interested. for years, demand was so strong that nothing mattered; brokers standard selling line was "do you want it or not?"

we looked at well over 100 apartments before getting ours and quickly realized that your best bet is to call (this was preinternet) listing agent and immediately move on when they began with the story that the one you called about was gone but that they would be happy....

it was agony---constantly broker talk about not being realistic, etc, etc.

but..we found our place and knew it the minute we walked in.

there are places out there that will are great--the system is unfortunately not set up to get you there easily.

how amazing for her to state blithely that you're not ready to buy---perhaps she means that you're not worn down enough to finally settle for something less than you want!

in my business which involves long term business to business services, selling cycle averages 20 months from first contact to close; I could not imagine rejecting prospects because they were too early--I have always seen that as an advantage for me to guide them through the process.

NYRENewbie, I do not know that you will like my response but despite your appreciation of your broker, it sounds like something is off here. If indeed most of the 24 units are really for sale, only getting access to 6 sounds like she isn't being aggressive in her approach to the listing brokers to get you in. If you were in the city for three days there is no reason at all with a good agent n your side that you could not have gotten into the majority of units. Also your agent should be familiar enough with the buildings to be able to tell you what in a given description may be misleading, and if not familiar with the buildings she could speak with the listing agent to ask the right questions in advance. We live in a mobile age, did she leave messages on their cell phones, or email them? Did she call again if the first call was not returned?

I'm not sure why an apartment purchased by an out of town buyer is perceived as a luxury. My husband has business in NYC that earns us a living like everyone else. We have returned from 5 years overseas and are trying to get to NYC as fast as we can. But thanks for revealing a possible prejudice that we had never considered that might be impeding our ability to see apartments. We had no idea that there might be a hierarchy in who deserves to see apartments and who doesn't.

My wife and I have been looking for a pied a terre apartment on the UWS for the past 4 months. We utilize Streeteasy and other similar sites to find units & open houses that we are interested in. We do not have a broker. What absolutely amazes me is the number of sellers' brokers that do not answer our inquiries, that do not know basic information about the units they are representing (are pied a terres allowed?), and how reluctant they are to show the units. What are they doing for their commissions? What do they actually do with their time? What is their real job? Is it a problem that we do not have a broker representing us? I thought that not having to split a commission would be an incentive. I think that one of the reasons that this market is so lackluster is that the agents are a hindrance. They are simply spoiled after experiencing the bubble market when even a chimp could sell an appliance box at a huge profit. Is anyone else experiencing this??

Absolutely agree back_porch.... my wife won't see a patient until it is an absolute emergency and you have the proper insurance... I mean there are only 24hours in a day.... can't be bothered if you say well i got this lump in my breast w/ no prior family history of cancer... my wife just says... manana.

Jesus!!!!!! THE ENTIRE BROKERAGE INDUSTRY NEEDS TO BE OUTED!!! Starting w/ you Front_Door_TURNER. Grown a little too fat from the last bubble cycle...

Funny, Bear Stearns would've never hired you.... they didn't take the wealthy kids that would've quit after the first all niter. BRING IN NEW BLOOOD, that'll work their azzes off for $5K commission.

Oh yeah, do you know the average income of a soldier killed in Irag? GO ANSWER SOME PHONE CALLZ... stupid lazy f's!!!

The brokers' comments can be quite offensive, nyrenewbie, and I am sure it reflects a certain reality out there. We are coming from a 10 year boom in real estate where even incompetent and lazy brokers got to make a very nice living. The current crisis will eventually weed out the worst ones. In the meantime, it can be frustrating to witness how unprofessional agents hinder the process.
You received some good advice, and maybe some bad attitude as well, but look at the bright side: if agents play hard to get, you have time to educate yourself.

sjtmd, brokers like u more when you don't have a buyer's broker. This is my experience. 3% is not the same as 6%. The higher the price, the more motivated by the commission difference. As maly said, you have an opportunity to learn. This way you can make a better buy than if you were influenced by a person than rather spend 2 months than 8 working for u for the same money.

Maybe some of those "listings" had gone off the market, but the info was still floating around on the Internet. Maybe the apartments were not prepared to be shown on short notice when some interest came after a dry spell.

Sounds like the seasoned SE Brokers advice is "don't bother me if you want to look at more than six apts" (Fluter) or "don't waste my time if you're not buying in the next 90 days". (Front Porch) The only good advice was "go to as many open houses as you can" (30 years)

Since it's easier to attend open houses without a broker, and SE can provide as much comp data as the typical broker provides, why would you use a full commissioned buyer's broker?

I may look at 50-100 apts and I may take 6-12 months but I'll do it by myself. When I get ready to buy I'll use a buyer's broker who will rebate me 2% or about $35,000. I can't believe that the average buyer will continue to pay for the full service broker who refuses to provide full service.

"sjtmd, brokers like u more when you don't have a buyer's broker. This is my experience. 3% is not the same as 6%. The higher the price, the more motivated by the commission difference. As maly said, you have an opportunity to learn. This way you can make a better buy than if you were influenced by a person than rather spend 2 months than 8 working for u for the same money."

Don't be so sure this is always the case. When I market properties, I ***HATE** getting direct calls from buyers because I know that almost inevitably I will have to answer an innumerable amount of stupid (sorry, but it's the truth) questions, set up appointments that I get no show, no called on, have requests for all sorts of information.... only to THEN have the buyer tell me "oh, by the way, I'm working with Broker X fro Firm Y". In addition, there are PLENTY of brokers who have deals where if they sell the unit themselves they take 3% or $5 and if it's a co-broke it's 6%, so the difference to the selling broker isn't all that much in getting the direct buyer in terms of money, but IS a lot different in terms of how much work you have to do. Personally, I EXPECT every sale I do to be a co-broke, and I even answer most direct inquiries with "Do you have a broker?"

I think that this isn't the case with "newer' brokers and/or those at the larger, more inflexible firms, where you have a rather high percentage of brokers who have only been in teh business for the "I can sell that in one open house" years who think their jobs is to show up and turn the door knob.

sorry "$5" should have been "4%" (damn shift key)

"front-porch:
The problem is that a lot of people are shopping and not buying, and it's running agents into the ground."

No disrespect intended. BUT, I have never seen a building that allows showings or open-houses before 8am or after 8pm. So, If the only activity a broker could be engaged in after 8pm or before 8am is researching their product or fielding phone calls. I find it impossible to think anyone in the business is being "run into the ground". I prefer to call it WORKING for a living.

According to that logic, working 90 hour weeks* wouldn't be "run into the ground". So brokers should work 1st year associate's hours, but expect to get paid like cashiers?

* 12 hours X 7 days + 1hour X 7 days for "researching their product or fielding phone calls" after or before showing hours = 91 hours

"When I market properties, I ***HATE** getting direct calls from buyers because I know that almost inevitably I will have to answer an innumerable amount of stupid (sorry, but it's the truth) questions."
I guess these are stupid questions - are pieds a terres allowed? - Don't know, will need to get back to you. Is it a full time doorman? - Don't know, will need to get back to you. Is that an "open" kitchen layout? -Don't know, will need to get back to you. Is there a storage or bike room - Don't know, will need to get back to you. Sorry "30yrs_RE_20_in_REO" - some of us actually work for a living, not just list a property and expect to make thousands in commission. Wake up and smell the busted bubble.

to OP: I think this thread answers your original question perfectly. this is a system that is busted. brokers think buyers are dummies; buyers think brokers are lazy and useless. it appeared to work when everything was going up--its gonna to change but it will take time. be glad you're trying to buy and not trying to sell!

If an agent showed 8 properties a day, 5 days a week, plus 2 open houses on Sunday, that would be a very heavy workload, equivalent to 50-60 hours a week. You could field calls and questions during the 1 no-show a day. That hypothetical agent would probably make a sell a week (5 days x 7 appointments + 25 looky-loos at the OH)= 60 new faces a week, resulting in one sale. 2% of the median sale @ $835,000= $16,700 a week or about 200k a year. Solid income for a solid workhorse.

30yrs: Maybe I'm old school. My first 15yrs in my business. I arrived before 7am, NEVER left before 6pm and went out to lunch 3 times. Additionally, I spent minimum of 1 hour every evening talking to foreign offices and longer studying and reading. Granted I didn't go the office on weekends but usually studied for many hours. No complaints, but good coin is usually earned.

"If an agent showed 8 properties a day, 5 days a week"

So that's 40 showings a week. If an agent is selling a unit a week (which would be a tremendous amount, BTW), how many exclusives would they have to have at any time? 3 or 4? That's around 10 showings a week if they only work as seller's agents. What if there are 50 requests to look at the units?

I'm not saying brokers shouldn't be finding ways to show units to all prospective purchasers, but I think a lot of people here don't get the numbers in terms of how things actually work.

so...what's your point? its tough to make a living as a broker?

"I guess these are stupid questions - are pieds a terres allowed? - Don't know, will need to get back to you. Is it a full time doorman? - Don't know, will need to get back to you."

When the listing says on it "Full-time doorman building, no pied-a-terres allowed", then yes, those are stupid questions.

Any more stupid questions?

so...let's see. how long does it take to respond? 30 seconds? do you really think its that different in any other sales job?

according to front door turner, it takes all day to deal with stuff like this. really?

"30yrs: Maybe I'm old school. My first 15yrs in my business. I arrived before 7am, NEVER left before 6pm and went out to lunch 3 times. Additionally, I spent minimum of 1 hour every evening talking to foreign offices and longer studying and reading. Granted I didn't go the office on weekends but usually studied for many hours. No complaints, but good coin is usually earned."

I think you are being totally unrealistic to expect anyone who chooses to become a residential RE agent to work the same as if they were on some career track in law, finance, etc. or even owning their own business.

that's certainly clear. can we expect roughly the same performance as some one on the sales floor at the gap?

Or possibly a car salesman? They work hard

30 years Proves my point. Put all the answers to all the stupid questions on the fact sheet and on SE. Now the broker doesn't have to answer any of these stupid questions but, also doesn't earn his 6%. Should make everyone happy.... no more stupid questions and no more 6%. No need to pay for the full service broker who refuses to provide full service.

I tell you what. If you all think it's so easy to make tons of money as a residential RE agent spending little or no time, the the majority of you are idiots for toiling away at your "real jobs" for all those hours when you could be living the easy life of a residential RE broker where it's easy to make $200K/yr with 40 hours of education and no barriers to entry or expenses. And that's for the one's who don't want to work hard. For all of you who are spending 80 hours weeks, I guess it wold be closer to $1/2 million. I'm curious as to how many of you are making more than $1/2 million a year? And for everyone else, why aren't you making the switch?

All jobs can be done with passion and excellence. Some brokers have been really great to me, answering promptly, taking time to discuss issues, etc. Some others were the opposite. I noticed it doesn't seem to be related to the amount of listings they have. It has to be a matter of personality, compromise, circumstance and mental health level. I really don't see why a lawyer would work much more than a real estate agent or a social worker, if the person is responsible and thorough.

"30 years Proves my point. Put all the answers to all the stupid questions on the fact sheet and on SE. Now the broker doesn't have to answer any of these stupid questions but, also doesn't earn his 6%. Should make everyone happy.... no more stupid questions and no more 6%. No need to pay for the full service broker who refuses to provide full service."

I think it's ironic that you didn't even bother to read that this is exactly what I'm saying. I guess it's not just RE brokers who are lazy.

sorry to repeat myself but...what's your point? one of my favorites is calling the listing agent (who has three open listings) and saying, "hi, I'm calling about your listing at ...... and being met with....huh, what listing?"

better yet as the listing agent, perhaps the broker should explain to the seller how stupid potential buyers are and make sure the seller understands that the listing agent often can't be bothered dealing with callers.

this whole discussion is absurd.

I tell you guys what: let's change the model: instead of commissions, let's just pay RE brokers $100 an hour, whether you buy or rent from them or not. Who's up for that system change? But before you answer: for those of you who looked at 100 apartments or so and then bought one, do a little math first.

but....what do you do for the $100/hr? turn the key in the lock? front door turner has told us repeatedly that she commands $200/hr because she singlehandedly can move the deal by $100K. of course, she never explained the how and when of it.

"sorry to repeat myself but...what's your point? one of my favorites is calling the listing agent (who has three open listings) and saying, "hi, I'm calling about your listing at ...... and being met with....huh, what listing?"

If you are calling listing agents *consistently* of open listings, then you're either calling every single listing in Manhattan, or you aren't calling on apartments for sale in Manhattan and doing any thinking before dialing. Because there aren't many firms who advertise open listings for sale, and by the fourth time you called one of the one's that does, got those responses, and kept calling on more of their listings, then it's you who are the fool.

"but....what do you do for the $100/hr? turn the key in the lock?"

now you're just being a jackass..... conversation over.

uh oh.

30yrs. I've also provided my broker with at least 3 direct referral listings, three or more buyers and numerous extra clients (the buyers of my units and others in the buildings tended to like him and what I had to say about him.

30 years... Sorry if I missed your point but I don't think it's because I'm lazy. I think we actually might agree that the informed prepared buyer who has done his homework doesn't need this hand holding. This educated buyer actually looks to the broker for his experience and expertise. Respected SE brokers have stated in this thread that they don't want to waste their time if the buyer wants to look at more than 6 properties (Fluter) or isn't prepared to buy within 90 days (Front Porch) If these brokers don't want to offer full service why do they think the buyer will be willing to pay full service prices. Like any industry, the more you push your customers to self service the less value they place on your service.

let's remember op's point that she is ready to buy when she finds the place she wants---not when some arbitrary time limit is reached. this whole string underscores how screwed up the whole system is. 30 yrs is enraged with being questioned and dealing with riff raff customers. this is not the way business functions. this is people bouncing off of each other and talking past each other; as i said earlier, good luck to the seller.

AR: and I've provided hundreds if not thousands of referrals to attorneys, mortgage brokers, managing agents, insurance agents, private lenders, I cold go on and on. If your point is good business people get referrals, you will get no argument from me. they usually deserve them (unless they are getting them by getting/giving kickbacks). I'll say this to you, because frankly I'm growing tired of some of the idiocy on this site: I'm not making excuses for lazy brokers: as I've said way too many times already I probably hate most agents more than anyone on the site. But way too much of the arguments against brokers are either misinformed, lies, bullshit or jealousy. Now, I don't see too many attorneys on here giving free legal advice to the members of this forum. Or contractors, or, or, or. To blow my own horn, I don't think there's anyone in the past few months who has given - for free - more advice that was worth real money on this site than I have. So to listen to people calling me names and talking about me being lazy or whatever is not only uncalled for, but quite frankly makes me want to tell everyone when they ask for advice: "Here's my number. I get $X per hour. Call me if you want the real answer". And let them get false answers from a bunch of people who don't know what they are talking about and see where it gets them. (and for those of you who can't wait to spit on me, no, I'm not saying that I am the ONLY person on this site who knows anything or ever gives anyone good advice to anyone).

actually, 30yrs, you might be surprised.

"30 years... Sorry if I missed your point but I don't think it's because I'm lazy. I think we actually might agree that the informed prepared buyer who has done his homework doesn't need this hand holding. This educated buyer actually looks to the broker for his experience and expertise. Respected SE brokers have stated in this thread that they don't want to waste their time if the buyer wants to look at more than 6 properties (Fluter) or isn't prepared to buy within 90 days (Front Porch) If these brokers don't want to offer full service why do they think the buyer will be willing to pay full service prices. Like any industry, the more you push your customers to self service the less value they place on your service."

My apologies for snapping at you. I think that MOST seller's brokers don't do the job they should. I'll give an example from this week: someone in my office is doing a deal and is having issues getting some of the Coop information (there's no offering plan because it's a pre-1960 Coop, but they don't have the other Coop docs and they are having problems getting the bank's standard "Coop Questionnaire" filled out). I think when an agent TAKES a listing, they should have the latest financials, all Offering Documents, a decent history of the Coop, if not an officially filled out Coop Questionnaire by the Managing Agent, at least all the information on one, all the coop's policies (pet, sublet, sales requirements,etc). Way too many agents wait until there is a deal to START looking for this and I think it's criminal. Way too many times when I used to do retail business I used to show apartments and I knew the answers to the questions the buyers had and I got RCA dog looks from the listing broker, or noted something about the unit (like "the original layout was...." and they didn't know it).

I think that there are way too many brokers/agents PERIOD in Manhattan (last count I heard was almost 30,000 brokers: how many deals are done per year?). And that way too many came in for the low hanging fruit. But the idea that "all brokers are the same" is just as good as saying that Weil Gotshal is the same as any ambulance chaser.

AR: surprised at what?

off-line, you've got my e-mail. if not i'll repeat.

and i think the OPs broker is not so dedicated, or simply connected, to get the job done. i'm definitely sensing a certain amount of success being achieved by some of the old-timers with realistic goals.

30 Years... I totally agree that your advice and expertize has no equal on this board. On many long threads I often skip over many posts to read yours and a few others I've learned to respect. I also would have no problem paying for expert advice by the hour just like I do with other professionals.

30yrs, i adore my broker, and not just because he's good eye candy. i think he has truly added a tremendous amount to the process. but overall this system is not user-friendly, and certainly not uniformly so.

newbie, go forth and conquer. i'm actually happy to provide some free advice.

30 yrs: According to that logic, working 90 hour weeks* wouldn't be "run into the ground". So brokers should work 1st year associate's hours, but expect to get paid like cashiers?

30 yrs: I think that there are way too many brokers/agents PERIOD in Manhattan

Main point: Publicize the first comment, and you solve the second one. I think there are too many brokers too but for different reasons -- too many brokers makes asking prices stay too high (as I explained a week or so ago). Remember how many times Steve Jobs explained how little money they make on the iTunes store? Does anyone believe him? There is value in talking down profitability in your industry. We need a great drama published in the New Yorker about how being an agent destroys your life to really cull the herd. And, no, a cameo in Trainspotting doesn't count.

Aside: I'll say, I really value the input you've had on the board. Thank you.

I've had some bad experience with brokers on the sell side as well: Both properties are on Park Avenue. One broker reminded my broker that the apartment does not have direct light and both bathrooms are ensuite before she would go ahead and make the appointment. We ended up not seeing the apartment. The other simply refused to show the apartment. She asked for our profile when she got our request, my broker told her our finances are excellent (but never quoted dollar amounts of how much we are making and assets we have), she then came back and said, are they a young couple? if so there's no room for the baby (note the apartment is a Classic 6), maintenance is too high for them, tell them to look off Park Avenue...
I am in total shock by attitudes like this in this market. I understand there are bidding wars on studios and 1brs < 1M lately, but overall sales are still down compared to the boom years.

"I tell you guys what: let's change the model: instead of commissions, let's just pay RE brokers $100 an hour, whether you buy or rent from them or not. Who's up for that system change? But before you answer: for those of you who looked at 100 apartments or so and then bought one, do a little math first."

Me. I'm up for that system. It is how I pay other professionals now, sometimes for stuff I never end up doing. Part of the cost of business.

$100 per hour times 100 hours is 10 grand. That is the buyside commission on a $330,000 apt. If we eliminated the buyside commission and everybody just paid 10 grand, all buyers would be better off (except people spending less than $330,000 and we know there aren't many of them in Manhattan). If you find what you like right away, you pay less. If you take up a year of an agent's time looking, you pay more. As it should be.

Same way other professionals charge for their time. I pay my accountant and lawyer the same hourly rate whether I make $10,000 in a year or a million. Why do brokers feel they are entitled to charge more for more expensive apartments?

"but overall this system is not user-friendly,"

Things are VERY backwards in Manhattan. I think it stems from the age-old "Manhattan is different". That said, there have been some MAJOR changes to make it much more user friendly than it used to be. Way before I got into the game, basically you had the big fancy coops on CPW, Fith Ave, Park Ave, etc. and the managing agent got every listing as an exclusive and if you wanted to see it, you had to go thru them. This is why you used to see all the big Manhattan Brokerages were also managing agents. Then, as more pedestrian buildings became Coops, just about everything was an open listing, and it was bedlam to some extent because every broker had different listings and just about no one co-brokered anything. The latest phase started around 1990 and may have actually been kicked off by suburban brokerage houses (Weichert and ... oh, what was the other NJ agency) coming in and taking exclusives on very run of the mill properties. Soon after, things quickly shifted to Corcoran and then the other large firms following suit. You then had a LOT of squabbling about co-broking, and it really wasn't till over 10 years later that REBNY started to really pay attention to the residential side of the business (it was REALLY about Commercial RE and teh residential division wasn't much of anything). most recently, REBNY has REALLY taken hold of the residential area as well, and although there's been a number of fights about how to handle listing systems, things are MUCH more transparent to users than they have EVER been in the past.

Of course, just about everywhere else in the country, they have been where we are for decades, so we are still behind in some ways. But if you look at where we were not so long ago, it really is a sea change in the way business is done. And an awful lot of kicking and screaming was done by a lot of folks trying to prevent it from happening. Naturally, along with all this change there are some wrinkles, bumps in the road, etc. I do think that between these changes and the changes in technology, coupled with the sheer immensity of the growth of the number of agents, and the change in the way business is done (much less specialization of every kind: did you know that Bellmarc once had an office which was just for studio buyers across all their territories even though everything else was closed areas?) that the "average" agent is much less skilled at many things than 20 years ago. But there's not much that can change that aside from a shakeout, which definitely will happen, but who knows how long it will take or how complete it will be.

modern: the BIG difference is that it's not conditional/at risk. When attorneys take cases on contingency, do they almost always make substantially more if they win than their hourly rate?

PS I apologize to "sideliners" reading this discussion for some of my more strident posts aimed at people in particular and not everybody, and I realize that it might have seemed that way.

"When attorneys take cases on contingency, do they almost always make substantially more if they win than their hourly rate?"

You had to go drag in a group with a worse rep than brokers, the trial lawyers. Almost all other lawyers get paid by the hour and not contingency.

Contingency lawyers prey on the ignorant or poor. If you have a good case and the means to pay, you are always better off paying by the hour (and if you don't have a good case, they won't take you as a client on contingency anyway). Same way with brokers, if you can't afford it pay a commission and finance it in the mortgage, otherwise just pay the broker.

You proposed this system thinking we would recoil in horror, I say bring it on.

"I second 30-years' suggestion about open houses. You can see 6-8 places in a few hours, explore a neighborhood and educate yourself about your must-haves."

Question: Why are open houses in NYC limited to only one or two hours? Can't listing agents be bothered with parking their a$$es for at least three or four hours, allowing a greater number of people to view the apartment?

too glib to say the answer is paying by the hour. as i asked last nite (only to be pounced on by 30 yrs), pay for what? different rates for different services? seems way too complicated. when does the meter start? does this only apply on the buy side?

matt, most brokers schedule multiple open houses on sunday. i'm not sure, though, why there hasn't been a greater coordinated effort to hold 11:30-2:30 oh's on weekdays. i suspect there's not enough cooperation in the industry to get it done.

but these days trying to hit six or more oh's is almost impossible. increasingly, even crappy buildings, they only let one up at a time, or at the least a broker has to be available to escort you. i've waited for almost a half an hour to view an awful apartment.

and, of course, a lot buildings simply don't allow them anymore. more vestiges of a 10 year crazy overheated market.

NYCDreamer: "I may look at 50-100 apts and I may take 6-12 months but I'll do it by myself. When I get ready to buy I'll use a buyer's broker who will rebate me 2% or about $35,000."

Question, why use a buyer's broker at all? What for? I thought a lawyer provides the most important service in the buying process, and you have to hire one anyway. Why spend a dime on a broker?

I concur that paying people for their expertise and service is the American way. I have been a big proponent of paying the broker for their time. The professional brokers will rise to the top because they will have the reputation for getting the job done most economically and the rest might become assistants to expedite showings, return phone calls, fill out paperwork. Brokers who waste people's time will not have a good reputation because they waste people's money. If the seller had to pay for only the hours spent marketing their apartments, maybe they would be more reasonable to making their prices more reflective of the market conditions...Reasoning: It is going to cost me more the longer it stays on the market. It might be good for everyone involved except those who are not professional or are not serious buyers or sellers.

Unfortunately, this vision of real estate future is not going to come about in time for me to find my apartment. The last few posts cast some doubts on the assumption that open houses were the best strategies for seeing apartments easily. If open houses are also not the answer to my dilemma, and I have already been blackballed as a picky out of town cash buyer who can't evaluate a real estate ad, what am I to do? New York City real estate is such an enigma. Does it really need to be this difficult?

newbie, i'm sorry, i know you like your broker, but maybe you should at least try another?

Newbie: Maybe you should rent. It is a lot easier, less risky -- and cheaper for now.

You need to weigh the advice received by the source. I would read 30-years' first recommendation and ignore the meta-discussion about business modeling. Just make it out for open houses, and check out neighbohoods, layouts, buildings, etc. Make copious notes in an Excel table, compare advertised square footage vs. real, make a list of non-negotiables (ie no co-ops, no walk-ups, no open kitchens or no galley kitchens), and a list of must-haves (ie within 2 blocks of the subway, no East facing bedrooms, above the 4th floor).
You will find that after 30 or 40 visits, your knowledge will enable you to read floorplans and ads much more accurately.

Yes, I agree, we should rent so we can at least wash this stigma off of us. Ha! Please tell me that the rental process is not going to be as painful.

newbie, both in terms of price and quality, this is the best rental market i've seen in years. i'm with skinny and cc. rent.

Drujan...Question, why use a buyer's broker at all? What for? I thought a lawyer provides the most important service in the buying process, and you have to hire one anyway. Why spend a dime on a broker?

If you don't use a buyer's broker the seller's broker collects the entire 6% commission. You're paying and getting nothing. I suggested a fee for service buyer's broker to advise me only on those issues I need advice (board package etc). Also I will get a rebate of 1.5-2% of sale price or about $35,000 in my case. I can buy a lot of professional advice for that $35K (lawyer, accountant or RE)

"I concur that paying people for their expertise and service is the American way. I have been a big proponent of paying the broker for their time. The professional brokers will rise to the top because they will have the reputation for getting the job done most economically ..."

"Most economically" for THEM, that is.

I eventually bought my co-op on my own, without a buyer's broker, because the two brokers I worked with would not follow my instructions! Both refused to show me apartments in my quoted price range, saying I was looking "too far below" my means. They also insisted on showing me only apartments with these blasted "open kitchens", saying that what I was looking for -- a kitchen that's its own room -- simply did not exist in my price range.

After six frustrating months, I went through one agent, then the other. A week later, I found EXACTLY what I was looking for, on my own.

Screw the "buyer's agent". They're looking only to maximize their commission and minimize their workload (time spent with you), which is diametrically opposed to your interest of buying as much home as you can for the least amount of money.

NYCMatt, I'm sorry you had such a bad experience, but glad it worked out in the end for you. I wish there was an easier way to navigate all of this. As I've said before, the system is really broken. I think if sellers actually knew that buyers who were asking to see their apartments could not get in, they would be flabbergasted. Do you think they actually care if they sell to someone who is not currently living in NYC? Money is money isn't it?

The system will have to evolve to accommodate:
1) Buyers who want to see many apts (many more than a typical buyer would see in other locations) in an efficient way.
Not easy even if you are efficient to see 6 O/Hs on Sundays.
2) Sellers who have to contend with building requirements for showings (again not an issue for properties in other cities).

It's possible that the system will evolve to cut out brokers entirely, if there was an easy way for sellers to get all the relevant information about their building (how many co-op owners even know what their board will/will not allow?)

Right, evolve. Not transform. Imagine the free-for-all chaos of all FSBOs combined with on-their-own buyers. It takes a certain mindset to do either successfully, and I don't see most people acquiring that for something they might do just a few times in their lives. I certainly don't have it. E.g., the FSBOs we see here tend to be generally-competent people, and we don't hear about those who threw away time and trouble before going with an agent.

Middlemen exists in most industries for a reason. The market supports what it supports. There's no conspiracy here to keep prices high or low. Most people I know (anecodotal) have buyer's brokers because they find it impossible to keep track of which brokers they've called and keep on top of appts and such. The same people have found brokers near useless for identifying properties that they might like. There is a disconnect in the system, and it is broken enough that it will change (maybe the key is that buyer's brokers will have to do a 2% "rebate").

I actually managed to go to 9 open houses today (one building had two apartments) with only one cab between 11:30 and 3:30. and we are exhausted.

but it seemed very quiet out there, little to no waiting in the lobby.

maybe i'll gather huge amounts of abuse for this, but although i've had a few brokers over the years who were abominations to both me and my broker, generally i've gotten into see what i want pretty much when i want. i put together a huge spreadsheet of properties i wish to see. if my broker has seen a given unit or has knowledge about a board he will tell me and suggest that the unit may not be for me. if i want to go see it anyway, he makes the appointment. i never even tell him our financial situation until i'm ready to make the first offer, and he doesn't ask. he calls to chat once a year or so, and i know why. it's a business and i am a customer, and that's the way i feel. all buyers should feel that way, and there are some brokers out there busting their asses off to ensure that their customers do. i see as much as possible at open houses without him, and he knows that. and i keep detailed records of the buildings i visit that interest me. i don't expect him to find my apartment, he is not in my head and has no clue what compromises might work for me. those suprise even me, quite often. as in any relationship, you need to find the right partner and make it work. if you have no interest in a broker, so be it.

but the rebate model is hugely interesting, particularly to someone like me who doesn't expect a broker to actually find my apartment.

AR: That's the rub. A lot of people don't want to and don't like to peruse the ads to find the apts that they want to see. They just want to be presented with options that fit the list they have in their heads. That's fine. So the question is, how should their broker be compensated?

10023, funny story. i was looking upstate with another couple. she was cheap, he had very definite ideas of what he wanted. we were both using the same broker. the broker kept showing the other couple properties the wife asked to see, the husband kept shaking his head and bemoaning what an idiot the broker was, and wife never admitted that the properties they were seeing were ones that she had asked to see. they found a FSBO and bought without a broker at the end of the day. he still thinks the broker was an idiot. i found our upstate home on-line, and think the broker did her job admirably.

i'd say that the seller pays the broker, and obviously the cost shows up to the buyer. that's the problem for the buyer. if the system was changed so that each person paid their broker separately, with no co-broke, the agency relationships could be made much clearer, and the buyer would be able to choose his/her level of service. and the seller would pay less. the rebate model is a hybrid form of that. but eliminating the 6% model altogether would be a huge thing. just rambling here, haven't thought this through so be gentle if you decide to eviscerate me.

in this technological age i think both sellers and buyers have the right to have better presented materials on-line. and i think buyers are overreaching to expect another person to find their dream property when so much information is now available to them. and yes, maybe they should pay less, as well as expect less.

NYC 10023... The Buyer's Broker model that was suggested allows the buyer to choose the services he wants from no frills to full service. Only pay for the services you want .5% to 3%.

wc - I don't know the Park Ave. market at all, but I'm not surprised they deter looky-loos. In a way, that depresses the prices on Park Ave. in comparison to the relatively easy-going situation on the West Side & downtown.

AR: I hear you. I have the sense that your partner is much like mine. I'm trusted (hehe) to do as I like, and I just present him with the papers to sign at the end. He gets veto power but only when it's down to the one I want.

Is "rebate" of the purchase price considered taxable income?

Also, some brokers charge 6% if splitting the commission, 3% if not. How does one find out for sure what commission did the seller broker agree to? Better to decrease the final agreed price by additional 3% than get a taxable rebate, no?

Who says people who show up at their jobs by 8:00 and leave at 6:00 Mon-Fri and put in weekend hours as well are working hard? I know people who "work" schedules like that who are just putting in time.

Wow, I go to Boston for one little wedding and this thread really heats up.

To answer Newbie's original question about the buyer side:

Purchse #1: Looked at 2 apartments (with my then-broker and current boss Gil Neary) and picked one.

Purchase #2: Looked at 5 apartments, outbid on one, bought the next-best.

Purchase #3: (Relo) Looked at 6 apartments with idiot realtor one, consulted with Gil and decided I really wanted a house, then looked at 5 houses with decent realtor two, bought one.

The only "hard" house-hunt I've had was with my current property search, my first co-purchase with my husband, where we were severely budget constrained -- we looked at maybe 50 properties over three years because our neighborhood choices were so up in the air -- we looked at Forest Hills, we looked at Jersey City, we looked at Chinatown, we looked at Harlem, we looked at Greenwich Village, we looked at Gramercy. Etc.

Our net was so wide we went beyond Gil's expertise as to what was and wasn't available. We became, in effect, those people clogging the system, but in our defense, we generally tried to do it at open houses and not by appointment.

When we got "serious" -- the 2008/2009 last round -- we looked at ten properties, were pretty serious about three of them, got outbid on one, and then bought a whisper property that wasn't listed.

so Purchase #4: Looked at maybe 50 apartments in ten neighborhoods, outbid on one, then bought.

Newbie, you have now seen six apartments, and now you know what you don't like, and what doesn't work with catalog shopping (e.g., you know to throw square footage representations out the window and focus on dimensions and room count) The answer to your inability to read a real estate ad (which I agree is the system's fault and not yours, and I apologize for my industry) is that your realtor should be able to make you a good second list now, and you should together target ten buildings/apartments, and you should love three of those choices, and end up buying one.

If your process henceforth doesn't work like that, then you guys aren't communicating (or your realtor doesn't know the inventory) and you should get a new agent.

ali r.
{downtown broker}