I am seeing a LOT of recent/current renovation in rental apartments

rent stabilization rules allow for a rent increase of 1/48 of the renovation cost, in addition to the normal allowable increase, when apts change tenants

this led to landlord's setting up bogus renovation companies that were basically fronts for the landlords. these companies would subcontract renovation and then inflate those costs hugely to allow big increases based on the 1/48 law--theyd bill the landlord who would reciprocally bill for some bogus service--the front renovation company and the LL would break even to one another and the rent would get seriously jacked

the renovations going on now are much better as they are done not to circumvent rent increase limitations but to make apt's more competitive as LL's struggle to rent serious vacant apt stock

the desperation of landlords can only be excellent for the market--get on the bull train lest you be stuck watchin the caboose get smaller and smaller

really pains me to see them ll's all desperate and what

AvUWS - that's interesting. We just ran into our old neighbor on Sunday who informed us that our old place hadn't rented yet. First thing I said to hubby was that they were most likely giving it a complete overhaul in an attempt to get CLOSE to what we paid when we left. So, yes, I think LL's need to stay competitive and improving the quality of the unit is one way to do it.

uwsmom- I forgot where you ended up renting. How long have you been out of the old apartment?

We are just now starting so gauging where the market is. Looking for a "real" 2BR under $3500 (can afford more but don't want to) and would probably prefer 90's and 100's (80's probably ok too).

Looks like there are some condos coming down into that range. Some in the Columbia at $3800 already.

We are flexible in what we want. The idea of outdoor space in a brownstone works as does the amenities of a condo or the space of a pre-war.

I think at least part of what you are seeing is that the level of finishes in new rental buildings is substantially higher than it has ever been. Even in the last building boom, there was a very clear difference between "rental finishes" and "condo finishes". You still see differences (not too many new rental buildings with Viking stoves and SubZero fridges), but when did you ever see rental buildings with granite counters and the like? In addition, the sheer volume of new construction (even if not "brand new" construction) as opposed to older housing stock is high than I have ever seen it in my life. As a result, renters are EXPECTING a much higher level of renovation/finishes than they ever have simply by being shown a mix of apartments where the majority are new or renovated, and the minority are in the condition that MOST of the apartments a renter used to see were. So, unless you've got a unit with something "special" (a garden, for example) it has become MUCH harder to rent apartments which are in fair to poor condition competing with those in good to excellent condition.

And even at the lower prices we are seeing now vs a year or two ago, we're still talking about serious $ for a 2 year lease (a $3,500 unit still is an $84,000 lease). So not being able to rent a unit vs having to spend some money to put it into shape to be able to compete is still worthwhile for the LL.

30yrs - I always appreciate your experience and insight. But while I think you are right, that isn't even what I am talking about. I am speaking of rentals in brownstones. The ones that used to just slap a coat of paint on, clean the mold out of the bathroom, and repair the odd leak between tenants. Now I see new appliances (not nec. stainless) and new fixtures in the bathrooms.

I will keep you all up to date as my search progresses. We have only started out.

I'm not sure where we disagree? That's what I was talking about as well (at least I thought I was).

Sorry to confuse. I think I was just disagreeing about degree. (Sort of a shade-of-grey type of thing). I am not yet seeing granite counter tops in $3500 2BR's but who knows, maybe in 6 months. Though I am pretty sure the wife will want to have moved somewhere by then.

People forget 1989-1991. I have looked for rentals only twice in the last two decades, both on the UWS for studios. In the end of '91 every agent had a couple of dozen studios and 1BRs to show and few had the same listings. (this was in the $1000 range). You had days to think about a property and often the owner paid the fee. And all there was was the NYT. No internet. (heck, few cell phones). Places that had been renting for 1600-1800 in '89 were now in the 1100 range (and going begging).

In '99 it had changed. The same quality was now 1600-1800 IF you could find something. No one had inventory. If you didn't see a place when it listed it might be gone by the same evening.

I am no longer looking for studios and maybe the 2BR market is different, but I still recall that in '99 a coat of paint and 1970s appliances was all you got in the way of "renovations" and now you can see refinished wood and new appliances in brownstones on the low end of the spectrum ($3k - 3.5K).

It also means that the pricing declines are also effectively bigger than the numbers show.

"Sorry to confuse. I think I was just disagreeing about degree. (Sort of a shade-of-grey type of thing). I am not yet seeing granite counter tops in $3500 2BR's but who knows, maybe in 6 months."

Ah... we were talking past each other.... what I was alluding to is that since the new construction rentals were putting in high end finishes like granite counters, that even the brownstones had to step up their game and offer renovated units rather than, as you said "slap a coat of paint on, clean the mold out of the bathroom, and repair the odd leak between tenants". NOT that they had to come up to the same level with granite counters, but that they did have to "step up their game" to at least be "current", as opposed to a 20 to 30 year old renovation like they used to be able to get away with. Although I will say that I am seeing tenement buildings in the East Village with granite counters and stainless appliances, even when the common areas of the building look like they have not been redone (aside from a sloppy paint job) in 50 years (or ever).

"Although I will say that I am seeing tenement buildings in the East Village with granite counters and stainless appliances, even when the common areas of the building look like they have not been redone (aside from a sloppy paint job) in 50 years (or ever)."

Welcome to the wonders of rent stabilization!

AvUWS - we're mid-80's now (used to be mid-70's). I did NOT see a lot of new renovation when we were looking. In fact, I was quite surprised by the condition of many of the places we looked at asking upward of 6k/7k. It makes sense that LL's would be upgrading, especially in brownstones, etc...

I wonder if in that market (pre-wars? Classic 6/7?) they still don't have to do it. In that range the attraction of the apartments can't be easily improved with a cheap renovation of the baths and kitchens. And a cheap refinishing of the wood details would probably do more harm to the bones of the apartment than doing nothing. I live in a building like that now (4 lines, 2 of 6's and 2 of 7's, one a bit bigger of each), and I doubt a few minor improvements would improve the rents much. Unfortunately the rents here are not in my range.

AvUWS: I'm not so sure it's as much "improve the rents" as "make them rentable at all". Since the numbers are still fairly high on these units, I think people in the price range see too many things which have MUCH higher grade finishes. I think what happens is the people who care more about the "classic prewar" WANT to live in them, but at a certain level (on the downside) just can't bring themselves to live with such low quality/old kitchens and baths. So what you end up with is a big apartment that no one who can afford it is willing to live in it. Now, while these people would of course LIKE the real high end finishes, I think a decent amount of them will TOLERATE a lower level, but that "minimum" level is higher than it used to be.

And I think you are overestimating most LL's of older building's caring if what they do does "more harm than good" as long as they can get their units rented. The various preservation societies may love "benign neglect", but that's because they aren't living in it.

I think it's true that people were (maybe still are) paying a premium in rents for large apts (3 or more br's) w/o a quality renovation. When we were looking, THE one line i heard over and over again from LLs and brokers was "but, there are people paying 7k/8k/9k, etc for the same unit...". Poor suckers. Our bldg is pre-war w/ a mix of 6's & 7's. There seems to be a pretty even divide between old-timers (rent stab?) and young families. I assume as the stabilized tenants move out, the LL renovates. They do a nice job too, nothing overdone but much more than minimal upgrades, takes great care of period details, etc... 30 yrs - I did NOT see many high end finishes when we looked, but i stuck mostly to prewar (and stainless doesn't make it high end, does it?). As i said, i was shocked by the condition (and price) of many places.

Av - sorry, didn't answer your question. we've been out of the old place (brownstone) for about 3 months now. I would be surprised if they weren't renovating it.

30yrs, very interesting thought (your original one on this thread as well as all the follow-ups). Makes perfect sense.

And is actually quite helpful to me, since I am in the process of negotiating our lease renewal, and our unit is not renovated. I'd like to think it's in "good" condition, but am probably being generous/biased - fair is probably more like it. We don't mind too much, but if we leave they'll likely have to spend time and $$ renovating. So yet another argument that having us stay is a much better option for them. Thanks.

hey: when you move, you probably won't tolerate apartments which are in the same condition as yours is now. Lots of stuff is "sticky downwards".

30yrs: Nothing more I hate than cheap renos that mar the bone structure of a prewar apt. In particular, I hate those HD kitchens that replace solid glass-paned oak kitchen cabs with original hardware. Ditto cheap ceramic tile & tubs over the original subway & hex tiles. Grr.