frontline special on NY

apt23
refreshing perspective. thank you

apt23, i totally agree with the accident of birth comment. yes, the columbia grad was annoying, but i felt that she was actually shamed by the fact that she still relied on her mother.

our poverty rate here is quite high compared to other industrialized countries. and our education and health systems just suck. yes, we have less suffering than many other places. but we have had a huge amount of resources available to us, and just spent 30 years squandering the same.

people are flawed, all of us, hugely so. they often don't act in their best interests, and they are hindered by a lack of flexibility of thought. but i still have sympathy for them, and like you i am very aware of how lucky we are, although i grew up in a trailer trash type of environment, not libya. this can't be easy for the many millions who have lost jobs, benefits, hours, etc. it may have been an editorial decision, but i'm quite surprised that there wasn't more anger.

i agree also with your take away impression that this is hugely painful for the older workers.

i grew up in a trailer trash

I see.

wow, heartless and an elitist. i have no reason to hide my background.

people are flawed, all of us, hugely so. they often don't act in their best interests

nope disagree, we all try to act in what we perceive is self-interest.

Examples
1)Mom & Dad decide to enable, the kids naturally take advantage.
2)Gov't tells us we can buy/should buy houses wihtout risk(no downpayment)..well
the results are obvious

Americans really are the same as the French, Chinese, pick your country..at least underneath we are.. The question is what makes one society work hard and another not...

i have no reason to hide my background.

Explains the constant need to curse. And the sense of entitlement.

alpie, this is kind of sort of my thread?

so...how do you explain the huge loss in 401K's? people who saved diligently, invested conservatively in blue chip equities lost more than 50% of their net worth. they had it coming? they should have known better? they shouldn't have saved in the first place? is there a youtube for this?

no, actually, it doesn't. some more generalizations from the master. neither of my parents had any fondness for anglo-saxon expletives, and i heard far less swearing there than one does in any law firm.

nice try, though. did you "deserve" your tax abatement?

Well, CC. A lot of people did not invest conservatively, especially over the last 10/20 year, investing in tech stocks, borrowing on margin, invsting in leveraged ETF'S and having large percentage of assets in equities versus bonds. One reason for this but certainly not the only reason is the actions & lack of actions on the part of the Federal Reserve. Fed drove rates to zero on more than one occasion telling people that you better not invest conservatively because you won't make a return. This didn't just affect retail, but also insurance companies who had to forsake conservative bonds for riskier assets. We're doing the same thing all over again now. Look at the Dow back up to 10,000 with the worst fundamentals. Look at housing. We have a tax credit(WHICH GOES TO THE SELLER) and gov't is not being magnanimous here. They are trying to inflate real estate prices to avoid writedowns on Bank balance sheets. Every action is meant to send money to the banks and the holders of real estate, not the new home buyer. Tax credit goes to the seller, Gov't buying mortgages in the open market goes to the lender who wrote the loan, and these actions make the house more expensive. If we wanted to provide for affordable homes, we should let the market seek its level, instead of trying to make homes more expensive.

please point out where you answered the question because i seem to have missed it. what about the people who invested their 401K's in blue chips and lost 50%? is that their fault? stop ranting for one second and try to think.

of course they deserved it. as do all the people who are seeing reductions in hours, wages, or even losing their jobs. everybody should have been able to save more than a year's worth of expenses during such a bubble. otherwise they should have rented overpriced properties, not bought them. they should have looked into their crystal balls and anticipated the meltdown.

http://www.dnj.com/article/DN/20091031/BUSINESS01/910310317/1088/BUSINESS/Wage+stagnation+pinches+millions+of+U.S.+workers

Compensation cuts have sliced across the board, but most workers who've been nipped and tucked are clear on one point: They're still in better shape than the more than 7 million U.S. workers who have lost their jobs in this recession.

"The ones who have jobs are willing to give up a lot to keep them. They've seen the alternative," said Tom McCoy, a Kansas City, Mo., compensation consultant at Intellithink.

Happened in the 1970's too. Market never goes straight up. Sometimes bonds outperform stocks over long stretch(like the last 10 years). Did you think this time was different?

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.epips.com/graphs/djia/oilcrisis.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.epips.com/indices/djia/1973oilcrisis.html&usg=__P1wYBwADiZOIejbjilAtWaEk5_4=&h=338&w=533&sz=9&hl=en&start=3&sig2=kDcTzPWAQrXtLtFUzuojEw&um=1&tbnid=xtjVzM_AeVqkjM:&tbnh=84&tbnw=132&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddow%2Bjones%2B1970%2527s%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26rlz%3D1B3GGGL_enUS308US309%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1&ei=ncftSunGMMrglAezz7j_BA

"stop ranting for one second and try to think."

what a novel suggestion columbiacounty

so in the nice, neat world of riversider and her hero ayn rand, everything that happens to every individual is 100% based on their own actions or lack thereof. in other words, good things only happen to good people. there certainly is a lot of empirical evidence to support that position. and plenty of youtubes.

columbiacounty, do you have any of your own stories about how you spent Christmas eve (or any other holiday) with a toilet plunger? Or are you just here to be nasty and borrow off Our Lady of the Toilet Seat Welfare Queen's glory to justify why you keep posting absolutely nothing?

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/01/books/review/Kirsch-t.htm

"Rand's particular intellectual contribution, the thing that makes her so popular and so American, is the way she managed to mass market elitism — to convince so many people, especially young people, that they could be geniuses without being in any concrete way distinguished. Or, rather, that they could distinguish themselves by the ardor of their commitment to Rand’s teaching. The very form of her novels makes the same point: they are as cartoonish and sexed-up as any best seller, yet they are constantly suggesting that the reader who appreciates them is one of the elect."

You obviously got your elitism from a source other than Rand.

Which was the book you read that taught you entitlement?

"Rand's particular intellectual contribution, the thing that makes her so popular and so American, is the way she managed to mass market elitism — to convince so many people, especially young people, that they could be geniuses without being in any concrete way distinguished. ......

You're quoting an opinion that matches your own. Very self serving. And ignores the experiences of countless many who had to live under a Communist regime.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2jmj9_free-to-choose-schwarzenegger-intro_politics

so in the nice, neat world of riversider and her hero ayn rand, everything that happens to every individual is 100% based on their own actions or lack thereof. in other words, good things only happen to good people....

Wow, what a mis-read. You to got Yale community college with about seven?

CC: As a family whose entire stock option package is still underwater, I count the 50% loss of our 401 k's a blessing. First of all, it could have been worse. And secondly, it is a HUGE wake up call. I lay the blame on everyone who voted for the Republican de-regulators. What Riversider is ranting against in his last post is almost entirely the current government's reaction to that disastrous de-regulation. And yes, I know the Clinton's part in Fannie Mae,etc, but de-regulation as a principle has been almost wholly an idealistic rally call by Republicans. Hopefully the current administration's actions are temporary fix against armageddon because I would like to see the market and the RE market eventually seek its own levels without aide -- i think it will be painful but in the long run better for everyone.

I think that since Reagan we have seen our society focussed on their own personal well being regardless of the effect on other, less fortunate members of our society. I think the people who want to deny equal access to health care are doing the same thing again and I believe it will be at the peril of our society. I understand that there has to be profit built into our system to ensure the incentive to develop new cures, but just think about the idea of capitalizing on someone else's poor health. It is a sorry system and one that is broken. I am blessed with very good health and very good health care. Last month, I was bitten by a cat and went to the emergency room for a tetnus shot. I was admitted to the hospital and 4 days later the bill was $42,000. For a cat bite. That is just wrong.

I was graced with a good education and a father who earned his wealth and constantly counseled us to never be greedy. So we emerged the financial crisis with a comfortable cushion because we have always been conservative with money. Others were not so lucky - mostly, again, by accident of birth. So again, I think the answer to all of our problems is to improve education, mostly so everyone can make intricately informed votes for representative government. Economics should be mandatory beginning in Junior High.

hfscomm1,
It's an open chat board so there is even room for a gadfly that offers no intellectual discourse outside of name calling and disagreement (with no constructed logical argument). You might actually end up liking this site and have to change you username because you have already broadcast your capacity for gray matter utilization. I see that you want to play...OK...contribute something, anything, anything at all that has some value to the group. What can I say, every village needs an idiot.
I guess we can consider that job filled.
Another job thanks to that stimulus package.
I can feel that recovery on it's way.
GO USA

arnold? free to choose what? to choose to take part in the destruction of california?

want to pick something else to defend that hack rand? 'cause this doesn't resonate.

Funny, As if California wasn't in the toilet before he was elected..

there you go. feeling all elite and superior again.

AR: you can't feel sympathy for that columbia graduate woman who felt bad about still depending financially on her mother at age 40. And here is why: It was apparent that she was the daughter in law of the hairdresser. She was obviously getting a free family haircut. Yet is was clear that the hairdresser was in financial trouble- hence her sister coming up from florida to work in the salon. One of the recurrent shots in the show was of the low paid worker sweeping the floor. Why isn't the columbia girl sweeping the floor for her mother in law so she can save some money on hourly wages? Her physical training biz is off 40% so she has some extra time. But it probably never even occurred to her to help out because columbia girl grew up in an era of record breaking prosperity, developed a sense of entitlement and sweeping is probably beneath her. Even if it is beneath her, she should do it for her family. The Chinese grew up with an incredible work ethic. Our current American generation did not. That is why the Chinese are going to kick our asses.

Because I wear a Yale Diploma on my sleeve? Or because I always talk about my Lawyer spouse?
Sorry not following...

Real House Wives of Streeteasy.

someone call Bravo.

Interesting alternate explanation of the crash of 29...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5329526746115377061&q=Milton+Friedman+Free+to+choose+duration%3Along&total=16&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=2#

Apt23, I missed that. I agree the Chinese are going to kick our ass. And American corporations are looking to help them do it.

rs, resorting to comments on my education and my husband's employment? Did you run out of YouTube clips to post? How's that tax abatement ?

421-A? It raised the price of Condos for the purchaser but builds affordable housing, which tax payers do not have to fund out of city taxes. Sounds like a wash. Feel free to paint a different picture.

Real House Wives of Streeteasy.

Ha! Great idea, but Bravo would never go for it unless everyone involved had big breasts that jiggled as they discussed tax abatements.

jifjif: Thanks for the laughs! This thread seriously needs it.

I watched the entire Frontline episode, as well as the three outtakes that didn't make it into the show.

It's hard not to feel empathy for the 50-something HR guy. He did everything by the book, yet the future looks bleak.

But on the other hand, the Columbia grad shows you how unrealistic many in our society are. She's going to go to business school (we're looking at 70K+, right?) so she can grow the personal training business? Give me a break. We, the taxpayer, are going to end up subsidizing her, and she's going to bail on those loans. Likewise the woman who's $200K in the hole and still charges her massages, when she and her husband declare bankruptcy.

It just confirms what I've thought all along: a good chunk of the country is despondent, and another chunk is delusional. Not to mention yet another chunk: the entitled. Did anyone see the "Flipping Out" reunion show? Rather than sell his house at a loss, Jeff Lewis and his entourage are hanging on for 6 months while the house gets foreclosed on. He has a housekeepr, fancy cars, takeout lunches for the whole crew every day, yet the taxpayer (directly or indirectly through bank bailouts) is going to end up paying for his behavior.

I just can't see how we can help the needy without bailing out the foolish and the selfish. Yet I am afraid that all the undeserving bailouts (the banks, the foolish, the entitled, etc.) are just digging us deeper and deeper into a hole that we won't be able to get out of.

Go read some Rand so you can feel good about yourself.

Are you saying your purchase was stupid? You chose it, your price might have been higher, but the bottom line is that taxpayers are supporting your condo taxes.

Aboutready you contribute no real estate taxes to the city and chose to live in a rent stabilized complex, which if was free market, would generate more taxes to NYC. Your logic is awful.

You think rents don't include taxes?

not the forgiven part.

I would wager that StuyTown pays very little property taxes compared with typical coops and condos. RE taxes are related to rents earned in the cities calculations and assessments.

Which is why there was such a huge financial incentive to do the ridiculous transaction that resulted in the current pending default off Peter Cooper. Not going to defend the stupid financing of Peter Cooper debt which never made any sense, but one hast to recognize city regulation was a catalyst for the sale.

I looked it up in ACRIS. It is unbelievable that the city provides this data without charge. The total bill for 2009-10 property taxes for PC/ST is approximately $37 million. PC/ST has over 8700 units per SE (another unbelievable free resource), so the bill is about $4225 per unit. That is less per year than my studio condo, and the average unit size at PC/ST is much larger.

ACRIS is a great resource. Promoting Transparency is a great role for government. Why aren't offering plans posted, instead of forcing us to trek down the A.G'S office.

I have seen some Offering Plans on ACRIS. Just have to look in the right block and lot number.

PMG, the valuation right now is about $199k per unit. my taxes at my chelsea 1300 sf condo were $400 a month until 2003.

AR, that is interesting. That condo tax bill sounds abated. When was it built? I would buy a ST unit at that valuation in a heartbeat. Good luck with the restructuring. You may get a very good opportunity. You need to pay twice that for a studio in Manhattan south of 96th St.

RS: city regulation was a catalyst for the sale of Stuy/PC? did you hear this on youtube?

PMG, it was a conversion, done in the 80s i believe, no abatement. i found it odd as well, but back when we bought coop maintenance of less than $1 psf wasn't at all rare.

we may indeed get a good opportunity. if the tenants buy the complex they'll be looking to sell some of the units, and will probably have an underlying mortgage of some sort to further create reserves. actually, just about any purchaser at $1.9 billion could find that to be a viable option, but other purchasers would be more likely to try to maximize profits. all of the services other than basic, security and landscaping are pay as you go. no doormen, not a huge amount of common charges likely for a development of this size. if it's the tenants, i got lucky. if not, so be it. thanks.

California is a basic conundrum. In a state were there are more illegal aliens than orange trees they can find 3 Med flies that threaten crop production but, the illegal aliens... unlocatable. Any and all federal funding in the direction of Calf. should be considered a gift. A state too big to fail...has failed and, no one super hero hollywood star or, anyone else for that matter can save it. The specter of public services and entitlements has come to an end. Big government in Calf. has come to an end. State funded public works projects as well as education (esp. at university level) will have to be diminished. What ever party there was, it is now over. As goes Calf. as goes the country.
I love our little insular lives here in Manhattan. Reality is always a bridge or tunnel away and it turns out that’s far enough to keep it out of my field of view. Even the folks who have scraped their pennies together for a haircut remain invisible from our view unless they sit before us. We don’t drive past foreclosure signs or abandoned factories. The harshness of our economic lives leaves little room for error on our own behalf or on the accounts of others. Most of the folks I know possess less than a year of reserve funds. In point of fact, the optimistic spending of the last 4-5 years left most of those bank accounts bare, as well as some debt that has to be serviced. How long do you think they can hang on? The girl with the big Columbia degree should consider herself lucky to have parents with the ability to help. I have experienced a lot of education in my life and have attended excellent institutions of higher learning. In each and every one of those Universities I have met morons. Morons that today hold prestigious degrees. Education alone is seldom ever enough.
You have to educated AND you have to be smart.
To be fair, how could anyone be asked to live w/o granite counter tops....

we're well and truly fucked.

what would it take to bail out california? more or less than the $85 billion given to AIG to ensure its counterparties were made whole? just curious.

You guys should read "Future of Freedom" by Fareed Zakaria & "World on Fire" by Amy Chua.

Zakaria makes an interesting case about how "too much" democracy aka Californian referenda can make a democracy unworkable when it comes to the nuts and bolts of governing.

It's not a question of bailing out California (just as it's not just about bailing out big banks) - there has to be an overhaul of the entire political system that allowed this to happen. And it's not just as easy as capping pay or backing CA bonds/IOUs. And yes, California's situation is complicated by the migrant/immigrant situation which is not going to go away as long as there is perceived opportunity there. Legalizing drugs would be a big step.

fareed was a friend of mine in college. i've read his stuff, his bent has changed significanly since his youth. it's fascintating to me his presence on the daily show. he's out hawking info about pakistan wherever he thinks it might get heard. good for him. sort of like elizabeth warren, absolutely not above using jon stewart to get her message across.

oh, and RS, jon stewart is rather profane.

Falco/AR: on the bright side, the U.S. can be self-sufficient in food/water. Just walk over the N. border and grab some plutonium, and the U.S. is all set in the event it gets severed from global trade.

I don't agree with Zakaria on everything, ditto Chua. But Future of Freedom makes some good points. Isn't Chua a Yalie? I know she teaches there now (and is quite heavily invested in NYC real estate :))

To save California will take an unpresidented effort by not only every Califorinian but, by every American. People in Ohio with no job prospects or hope will have to put their petty needs aside and focus on the needs of the once great state of Califorina. The folks in Detroit will have to stop complaining about their own troubles and get busy raising money to send to the beleaguered Gov. Terminator. Illegal alains all over America will have to stop sending money home to their families and start putting that cash in envelopes and addressing them to Califorina. If we all pull together and put aside our own needs like food and shelter....we can save it!

Califorina dreaming on such a winter's day................

Falco: we will know that CA is either on the mend or we're in a post-economic apocalyptic world when I see native-born Americans harvest fruit in CA.

well---we've tried to starve the beast for 25 plus years. time to bite the bullet and raise taxes.

It ain't just about raising taxes, CC. It's geopolitical (dealing with the migrants), it's structural (CA democracy gone amok), it's environmental (CA agri is based on a mirage of H20 management)...

10023, maybe we should start an SE food-production commune. did i write that when you mentioned the farmland? i thought it, but don't know if i got around to putting the idea down on the internet paper.

we might have some water issues, but yes we are much better off than many. weather patterns may wreck havoc with our crop production, but we have a huge country with a huge geographical diversity. we'll be able to adjust, and not be another USSR. but sad what we allowed to happen. so, so sad. and for what?

i agree that legalizing drugs, as well as prostitution, would only benefit this country. let's get rid of those idiotic puritanical beliefs that cause us to be so rigid and slow to adapt. we're embarrassingly slow in terms of social advancement. slavery, women's right to vote, health care, etc., etc., etc.

agreed but compared to what you're talking about raising taxes would be popular! the sooner we do it, the less painful it will be.

"Zakaria makes an interesting case about how "too much" democracy aka Californian referenda can make a democracy unworkable when it comes to the nuts and bolts of governing."

Sounds a bit like Israel with the mainstream parties being held hostage to the desires of whack job minority parties to form a majority governing alliance.

But this two party system isn't serving its purposes either. I am surprised of people's allegiance to one or the other of the big two, when they have both clearly failed us.

NE is okay w.r.t. water. We'll just have to deal with pickling cabbages & laying down tomato sauce for the winter when we get cutoff from CA lettuce (incidentally, I stopped buying CA-grown vegetables with the exception of carrots & broccoli for my kids).

Drugs is a huge drain on the U.S. not just in terms of policing, blabla but because of the ensuing instability down south.

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/blogs/index.php/gordon/67251

California, for instance, increased total spending by an astonishing forty percent just since 2003 and is now–surprise!–the state with the biggest budget problem. The Times thinks the blame lies with the people of California, with their “deeply anti-tax strain” dating back to 1978 when Proposition 13 limited property tax increases. Of course, California had a string of balanced budgets and rapidly increasing prosperity beginning in that year because other referenda imposed strict spending restraints. It was only when those spending restraints were gutted in the late 1980’s that California’s budget roller-coaster ride began. Perhaps I missed it, but I’m pretty sure that the Times did not report Californians starving in the streets during that period.

I'm breaking out my Fedora.
This, I am told, is the official hat of all significant economic depressions.
In true New York style I have asked my spouse to sew on a Yankee insignia.

Californians haven't quite been pushed to the wall yet. Ever look at old pictures of the Okie migration/Dustbowl era. Heartbreaking. As I said, when you see native-born Californians picking fruit & veg, we'll be there.

AR: we'll need lots of guns to defend our little farm.

10023, haven't read Chua, will take a look. i don't agree with everything fareed writes as well, but i'm coming close these days. and he was a neocon, at least in my estimation, back in the day, although i'm sure he'd disagree. (sorry FZ, i just recall a very heated discussion regarding the rights of the US in terms of protecting oil supply access in the Middle East. we were both young and full of ourselves, so if i'm misrepresenting your position due to a faulty memory, my extreme apologies, if you were ever to be apprised of this post).

cc, they are raising taxes and fees EVERYWHERE. VAT may be the most just way of use taxation, but the rich in the US despise the idea. and the rich rule.

Raising taxes? Insane idea. NYC has the highest combined State/City taxes in the country and they are raising them further, and California has the highest State taxes.

People are voting with their feet and leaving, to the detriment of the tax base of both.

The solution is to deal with the public employee unions, who are still getting regular raises and inflated pension benefits.

Agree, It's not the pay, but benefits to city workers which are out of line. They need to follow the practice in the private sector.

City needs to start figuring out smarter ways of cutting costs and eliminate some of the stupid discretionary spending. Case in point two very expensive stadiums.

When you see native-born Americans working as short order cooks in NYC, then we're either on the mend or in some post-economic-collapse phase.

And why are we rebuilding world trade when there's a commercial office space glut?

modern, i don't disagree in theory. but i think it's way too late. the entire pension structure, public and private, is doomed. and what that means for the people who were given the assurance that they could rely on those funds for retirement, well, we're seeing it now and we'll see it much more in the future.

consequences. they occur when you make change for the worse. and they'll occur now whatever change you make. a few people will win, most will lose. we are broke, as individuals and as a society.

rs, here we'd likely agree. we're rebuilding world trade so that multi-national corporations can find new customers. americans are a dry well. look elsewhere for the potential profit.

It will be interesting to see what happens to the tail-end boomers in their retirement. I'm somewhere in the middle of the baby bust, and I don't know too many people of my generation who ever expected a pension.

Why do adults have children if we already have people?

Duh, there is competition. So someone wants to create new better buildings they should be able to do it if they can make a profit. The old builders shouldn't be protected just because of some communist central planning nonsense.

The tail end of baby boomer s will rely on a new Ponzi schemer who will make Bernie Madoff look small. own GOLD.

Is Zakaria considered a neo-con now or a liberal? I sort of ignore all political commentary on Iraq/Afghanistan/Middle East now because the situation is so murky and volatile.

"but i think it's way too late. the entire pension structure, public and private, is doomed. and what that means for the people who were given the assurance that they could rely on those funds for retirement,"

You have it all wrong. Current NYS and NYC employee pension benefits are protected by the State Constitution and cannot be changed for current workers. Nobody is even suggesting that.

What is needed is a new Tier 5, which would not affect a single current worker, yet is still bitterly opposed by the unions. Tier 5 would make workers have to wait until 55 to get a pension, (many start their pensions in their 40s) and work 25 years instead of 20.

The savings start small but turn into billions per year over time.

http://www.cbcny.org/Pension_Facts.pdf

10023, i'm a few (quite a few) years older than you are. i never expected a pension, at least not for the last 15 years or so that i can recall thinking about it. but many people certainly did. and it seemed sacrosanct. i have extremely mixed feelings about these pensions. of course they are over the top, excessive given today's realities. but they were indeed promises. and if there hadn't been such a boom and bust environment, they very well may have received a decent percentage of the promise.

onthemove, i just got a message from the obama people asking me to show up for a one year anniversary of the win party. i don't even know what or how to respond. we need a constitutional ammendment regarding campaign finance. but i'm not expecting it in my lifetime. hopefully i'll be surprised.

modern, i wasn't just talking about public workers, but you're absolutely correct that my area of knowledge regarding public workers isn't so great. i think that only firefighters ought to be entitled to a fairly early retirement. and that's just one person's opinion. sorry if my information was incorrect, but i'm fairly certain that NY's system is not nationwide, and that's what i was addressing.

10023, no, to me not neocon any longer. more liberal than not, but not a liberal. from india, obviously interested in india's safety. but his position on the threats emanating from pakistan rather than afghanistan make complete sense to me.

You replied to my post, which was about public pensions. You need to read more carefully and keep up with the discussion. Nobody was talking about private pensions.

we're rebuilding world trade so that multi-national corporations can find new customers.

--You'll need to explain how a rebuilt world trade helps multi-nationals find new customers, I can't even take a position on that argument since I don't follow the logic. However I do not agree we need the project which adds excess capacity and will depress rents further hurting the cmbs market. The original world trade devastated the down town area for years. don't understand at all why the gov't needs to finance this. If Larry Silverstein wishes to built it, no issue, it is his money, he succeeds or fails.
Sony will be just as as happy in midtown maybe more so than in the rebuilt world trade.

If you are the same age as FZ, then you are officially in the baby bust gen.

no, 10023, unless he was hugely young. i'm a late baby boomer.

and modern, here was my response. maybe you should keep up, because you certainly have no right to delineate exactly what is covered in the discussion.

"modern, i don't disagree in theory. but i think it's way too late. the entire pension structure, public and private, is doomed. "

10023, he may have been a year of two behind me, actually. we were in the same wine tasting club, but i definitely didn't meet him until junior year, i believe.

modern:"You have it all wrong. Current NYS and NYC employee pension benefits are protected by the State Constitution and cannot be changed for current workers. Nobody is even suggesting that."

Doesn't mean that if the govt gives with one hand, they can't take it back with the other -- with added taxes. Taxes will be increased in NY in spite of the fact that it is already one of the highest rates-- it is also one of the highest per capita incomes.

Taxes will go up not only because of the loss of tax base, and the looming commercial RE crisis, but the infrastructure is abysmal. If the west side water main breaks down before the new one is due on line, in what, 2020?, there will be holy hell to pay - literally. And that is just the tip of the iceberg. Does anyone really think real estate taxes in NY are not on the way up?

apt23,

You are entirely correct. RE taxes will go up, as the government is doing little to nothing in terms of reducing expenditures to deal with their decreased revenues. NYC is in better shape than NYS though.

I just started paying a brand new tax, some sort of MTA withholding taxes on my employees salaries. My NYS income taxes have been raised. My Federal taxes are going up a lot if the Pelosi bill passes. And if it doesn't, they will go up for some other reason.

I am a small business that pays a lot of taxes. I am on the verge of saying the hell with it, closing down (more unemployment), buying tax-free munis, and relaxing. If combined Fed/NYS/NYC taxes reach 60+%, you will see me and many other small business owners say the hell with it.

Raising taxes in NY will short term increase revenues but longer term will cause an exodus and fewer jobs.

shut down. what do those munis pay?

Yep. munis are the way. but of course you have credit risk..

Yep. munis are the way. but of course you have credit risk..

AR, the discussion was going on about California and NY and public expenditures, your comment was incorrect about public pensions.

lets stay on topic. how soon are you shutting down and reaping the benefits of your muni investments? by the way, you may want to consider taxable securities once you have no income.

Columbia county knows of what he speaks. He gets no tax benefit from munis

yep...you are the asshole new posters. confirmed.

time for hfs and jmbuch.

columbiacounty, thanks for the invitation, but since there's been no discussion of aboutready's toilet seat or aboutready's Christmas Eve with the toilet plunger, there's not much for me to add.

I'm not going far so fear not, when the appropriate topics arises, I'll be here.

By the way, how rude of me, I didn't ask how you hated your day. Was everything nasty and bitter enough for you this Sunday?

so, riversider, how do you decide which of your many personnas to put forth at any given moment? sick, sick, sick.

Hey columbiacounty, is there one day of the week when you are not angry?

Tuesday?

modern, so posts can't evolve? your position is the only one that matters? and you aren't flexible enough to adjust to another viewpoint?

i admitted my lack of info in the public arena. how are you doing in the private? and who the fuck cares whether or not you think only the public matters? because it clearly doesn't. but keep on with that. because it resonates with certain people. who like to find scapegoats in the wrong places.

again, how much would it cost to bail out CA? more or less than $85 billion?