I hate granite

Suzanne, I'd take a look at what materials new Condos are using to market. In all liklihood, this is what maximizes value upon resale. Folks like Extell & Related spend a great deal of money researching this. They know that buyers pay great deal of attention to kitchen and bathroom.

i think they are beautiful and who knows what will be in fashion in 5/10 years. if you love it go for it and if a buyer replaces it in 10 years you will have 10 years of enjoying your kitchen... it's not fun to be safe on everything and you're not straying that much, live a little!
just my thoughts....

i hate granite also. use a quality material and make yourself happy, many people love the options you listed. who can possibly predict what people will want in 10 years?

I just went to pick out granite yesterday and didn't like most of what I saw too speckly, I did decide on a pattern called wave that I did really like, Caesar stoen is fine especially it its a small space. If not much light, try to pick somethng on the lighter side. Becareful of limestone etc--stone needs to be sealed once a year and is easier to chip than other things being a softstone

Agree with bubbles--pick out what you like--its your apt

Suzanne: in 10 years, people won't not buy your apt just because of the granite. Get what you like.

I happen to like granite and marble and slate and the like, but you should do what makes you happy. I don't think it will really affect the resale value in 10 years. A lot of designers on HGTV use engineered stone and the Harrison on W 76th is using it for the kitchen and bathroom countertops (but they are using natural stone flooring in those same rooms.)

most people are fairly ignorant when it comes to counter top materials and only know: 1)granite, 2)stainless steel, 3)laminate, 4)everything else.

"In five or ten years, will a buyer walk in and say "why isn't this granite?"

Nothing is absolute, but there is a non-insignificant chance the answer will be "yes". While lots of stuff has gone in and out of style, granite counters in NY kitchens have been "in" for over 30 years (not widely used at the beginning of that period, but recognized as "it" nonetheless). It's the little black dress of kitchen reno's.

"I just went to pick out granite yesterday and didn't like most of what I saw too speckly"

Most is, and lots of people use a granite which looks good on a 3" sample, but is overwhelming in quantity (example: blue pearl). You really can't go too far wrong with absolute black (very small flakes)

I used a granite called "Shivikashi" and it is gorgeous. Not speckled - creamy beige with streaks (veins?)of copper, cream, running through it. Used it with cherry cabinets, and light Italian tile floors.

I just dug out Fine Homebuilding's annual Kitchens and Baths issue from 1999. Couldn't tell it from this year's. The same granite and stainless steel, same token French range in colored porcelain, same articles on all the different countertop and flooring materials and cabinet construction.

As 30yrs said, most buyers don't pay much attention to this stuff and are happy if it reads as spiffy- and expensive-looking. Granite still typifies that in their heads, so anything else becomes second-best.

No one knows more about real estate pricing than 30 Years. So I'd be inclined to take his suggestions very seriously. That said, unless he has ever lived with the perpetually streaky dirty look that is black granite, you may wish to keep exploring other granite options. Resale is important but you also have to live with it for 10 years.

There are few neutral ones in this list that don't seem too specy: http://1000granitecolors.com/Granite-Colors-Beige-Granite.asp?rid=69&curPage=1&gid=2&fm=

I very much respect 30yrs opinion, but I'd say to please yourself. I think that resiliency & durability is of the utmost importance so that it still looks good in 10 years, so research, research, research. Remember your first goal is to please yourself.

I very much respect 30yrs opinion, but I'd say to please yourself. I think that resiliency & durability is of the utmost importance so that it still looks good in 10 years, so research, research, research. Remember your first goal is to please yourself.

I very much respect 30yrs opinion, but I'd say to please yourself. I think that resiliency & durability is of the utmost importance so that it still looks good in 10 years, so research, research, research. Remember your first goal is to please yourself.

I very much respect 30yrs opinion, but I'd say to please yourself. I think that resiliency & durability is of the utmost importance so that it still looks good in 10 years, so research, research, research. Remember your first goal is to please yourself.

Porcelain tile is a good countertop choice. I hate granite, too. Did five renovations in three years and took the "never again" pledge for both granite countertops and stainless steel appliances. And, of course, the one we're left living in is the one with the granite and stainless, neither of which ever looks really clean for more than two minutes.

The best result we had was with very, very large porcelain tiles with toothpick thin grout that matched the tile. The right porcelain is impervious to liquid absorption and easy to keep.

Here's a wild suggestion: How about Formica?

I think George's parents on Seinfeld had Formica.

Formica's great. But like it or not, it doesn't play in Manhattan where most RE is de facto "high end".

There're some interesting retro-kitchen websites for people who like a '50s-'60s look. I like it myself.

Actually, the entire WORLD had Formica until HGTV convinced everyone with a little bit of equity in their homes that your home was completely worthless if you didn't upgrade to granite countertops and restaurant-grade appliances.

Formica's lifespan is at least 20 years (and if you take care of it, you can easily squeeze 40 or 50 years out of it). It is the most flexible countertop as far as design and color -- solids, bolds, pastels, patterns -- you name it, Formica can do it. And because it's so cheap, you can rip it out and change it -- up to four times -- before you've approached the total cost of one installation of granite.

So yes -- you'd better make damn sure you're absolutely in love with that granite countertop before installation, because it'll be there FOREVER.

Wasn't Corian the step up from Formica? Whatever happened to Corian?

Corian fell out of favor because it stains so easily. And that whole notion of being able to simply sandpaper the stain away? Nice in theory, if you don't mind accumulating pits and waves in your countertop after years of sanding away all those stains.

Butcher-block can look good, doesn't feel as harsh and piss-elegant. An SE poster's apartment that just sold has an excellent kitchen: http://www.wellcomemat.com/douglasheddings/E2F2A51651APT.html. Perfectly functional, tried-and-true work triangle, but it's for a serious cook.

"Butcher-block can look good, doesn't feel as harsh and piss-elegant. "

Butcher-block for an entire countertop is a huge mistake. The wood is a veritable petri dish for bacteria, and needs constant disinfecting and treating.

NYCMatt - I'm with you on formica. I used formica 15 years ago in a summer house renovation. Thinking of re-renovating it now just because I know it's had 15 years of my use, plus in-an-out tenants over the years.
Visitors who don't know it's age think it looks fine.

And, if I do succumb to renovation urges and choose new formica, the cost might be $500!

My worst ever choice for a countertop: 4"x4" ceramic tiles. Even with dark grout it looked bad and dated the day it was installed. It's a small, angled, pokey space, so I thought I'd minimize waste. But, it was still a lot of cost and effort to achieve U.G.L.Y.

Cliff, I never understood why anyone would think ceramic or porcelain tiles for a countertop are a good idea. Why would you want grout on a food prep surface?

It doesn't really matter. It's not as if anybody's rubbing raw chicken on their countertop and then licking it, or even chopping on it. That's what a cutting board is for. It's just a place to put stuff down, and you wipe it when needed. Every surface everywhere -- including our bodies -- is swarming with bacteria, yet the species endures.

Wood surfaces, however, ABSORB bacteria-laden moisture. Hard surfaces do not. This is why wood needs to be disinfected on an almost daily basis.

I have pietra di bedonia on my counters, it's beautiful...a very soft pale grey/green in color but it stains like marble so I have to be very careful.
I did love granite when I had it since you could just throw anything on it and it never stained. I had Uba Tuba from Brazil, it was gorgeous with cherry cabinets.

I never liked granite. But it is in my rental and I gotta say, a quick wipe and it looks really clean. I would never choose it, - black with uniform speckles -- but it is really easy. I looked at an apt that had caesar stone and it looked great -- it was a light color but i didn't get the name.

For darker, smaller kitchens I prefer lighter countertops and cabinets, although most designers say these should be contrasting choices. My preference in light countertops is caesar stone or another synthetic quartz, because of the appearance and durability.

I prefer Corian or stainless steel. They are more friendly to glass. If you tip a wine glass over on a granite countertop it will definately break while on Corian you might have a 50% chance. As well, I have used a white Corian counter and have set hot pans right onto the surface without any stains or marks. Granite always feels dirty to me; and, it's really a tired look.

tinkun, i agree. my granite LOOKS clean, but feels nasty. the heat issue is nice, but there are other materials that can take heat as well.

a large percentage of kitchens with granite have countertops that do not match the backsplashes. ours does, actually, and doesn't look bad. both in the rental (with cream colored subway tiles) and upstate (where they used pressed tin, not my favorite look but it works).

i also have a large butcher block built-in island upstate, and i had ceramic tiles in a prior condo that i adored. many things work. i've walked into many a very tired-looking kitchen with granite.

You should go with what you like. Who knows what will be in style in 10 years. I'm surprised that no one has brought up the recent concerns on radon and radiation with granite countertops. The radiation seems blown out of proportion to me, but if you have an apartment which doesn't have great fresh air circulation, the radon could be an issue. Who knows, perhaps in 10 years people will be ripping out granite countertops as a safety issue.

I agree that granite is classic because it's so functional, but I think you can probably get away with a nice composite like Caesarstone. If you are really worried about resale, you might want to check out a composite like Ice Stone, which at least is "green."

ali r.
{downtown broker}

How can anybody "hate" granite? It's a noble substance that has been on earth from the most distant ages, takes all you can give it...so distant from the best man made material, in my view. In the kitchen, nothing beats the natural thing. By the way, americans thought that formula was better for babies than human milk, and they even sold that idea to developing countries. Oh well, I guess I digress...

mimi, i hate granite. it's just a personal taste thing. i like soapstone, butcher block and tile. and a small marble area for pastry. i don't like an industrial type kitchen for my own, but i can appreciate the look of a concrete and stainless steel kitchen. as i said, i'd never do it for my own.

my granite is always dirty. i clean, clean, clean, and then my hand brushes across something, well, i don't like it. to each their own.

we have "river washed absolute granite" . looks nothing like typical granite.
but i yhink everyone has said the same thing. get what you like !

"I had Uba Tuba from Brazil, it was gorgeous with cherry cabinets."

Exactly what I have.

"I very much respect 30yrs opinion, but I'd say to please yourself. I think that resiliency & durability is of the utmost importance so that it still looks good in 10 years, so research, research, research. Remember your first goal is to please yourself."

Just wanted to point out that my original answer was in response to the OP's posted questions, not "telling" anyone what they "should" do. I was trying to say what NWT did:

"I just dug out Fine Homebuilding's annual Kitchens and Baths issue from 1999. Couldn't tell it from this year's. The same granite and stainless steel, same token French range in colored porcelain, same articles on all the different countertop and flooring materials and cabinet construction.

As 30yrs said, most buyers don't pay much attention to this stuff and are happy if it reads as spiffy- and expensive-looking. Granite still typifies that in their heads, so anything else becomes second-best."

Count me in as another granite-hater. At least on kitchen countertops. If you renovate your kitchen with granite, you can be certain that I won't purchase your apartment, no matter how much I like the rest of it.

Personally, I like the look of butcher block (and don't care about the bacteria worries as I use cutting boards anyway) and I also like the look of formica. Corian's perfectly fine, too, but I wouldn't pay extra for that look.

I say, put in what you like, as long as what you like isn't deeply weird.

How can you hate granite? It is like hating nature. Each stone is unique and beautiful in its own way.

Wow...the kitchen has expensive granite and you don't like it....this is what rich people have to worry about...unbelievable when people have lost jobs by the millions and continue to worry about mortgages, food, rent...why not take the money you would spend to change the granite and help a family out by paying their mortgage for two months.

OP: if you are interested in Caesarstone, check out "misty carrera" and "pebble" as good choices for pre-war designs. They'll integrate seamlessly and look wholly appropriate, expensive (well, they are expensive), and perform extremely well with heat, durability, stain resistance (practically stain-proof, actually). It comes in large slabs making many installations possible to do without any seams.

Uba Tuba (dark green( and Absolute Black have been used for years - sort of classic, though on the dark side. It's a safe choice, though there are many other beautiful granites.

I agree with others on this thread - do what you want, (though I must say Formica would be really strange in this day and age) because you will be using that kitchen every day.

The only other weird thing I once saw was a kitchen (and bath) done in some composite material that was brown. Somehow, brown countertops just looked totally unappealing. Apartment took a very long time to sell (the owners had made some other strange choices in renovating).

"How can you hate granite? It is like hating nature. Each stone is unique and beautiful in its own way."

Granite has its place, like on tombstones and museum steps. In my opinion, it's just too cold and hard as a surface in the kitchen. And the "speckling" makes it look dirty all the time.

Kylewest - I hadn't thought of the marble-like Caesarstone patterns, like Misty Carrera. (I love marble, but I'm not willing to give up lemons and tomatoes.) But doesn't that break the fundamental design rule that using one material to imitate another is always tacky? Caesarstone isn't marble, it's quartzite - it's made from 93% natural quartz, chipped into little pieces and mixed with resin cement (the same kind of material that was used for flooring in many pre-war public buildings, though I think we use a more advanced synthetic resin to bind it now). So I was thinking it ought to look like classic quartzite - e.g. one of the chippy sparkly patterns like Nougat or Quartz Reflections (or Silestone's Stellar Snow).

>How can you hate granite? It is like hating nature. Each stone is unique and beautiful in its own way.

I love granite in nature. I hate it in post-yuppie suburban-style kitchens.

>Wow...the kitchen has expensive granite and you don't like it....this is what rich
>people have to worry about...unbelievable when people have lost jobs by the millions
>and continue to worry about mortgages, food, rent...why not take the money you would
>spend to change the granite and help a family out by paying their mortgage for two months.

You misunderstood me. I wouldn't spend money to change the granite. I'd run screaming from the ugly kitchen.

I like chunky-munky from B & J. It does have large chunks in it which give it a wild look. Also a sparkly pattern like Nougat. However no quartz reflections. Sadly, in my kitchen it did not last for long.

Why didn't Quartz Reflections last very long in your kitchen? I thought all Caesarstone was indestructible.

Suzanne: I think pyxis is talking about Ben and Jerry's ice cream.

My vote is with kylewest's on Caesarstone's pebble and misty carrera, though I have to admit to liking some of the flecked ones as well.

I hear Formica toilet seats are the latest thing.

Gotcha, Suzanne!

"If you renovate your kitchen with granite, you can be certain that I won't purchase your apartment, no matter how much I like the rest of it."

I know. I saw the absolutely perfect apartment once; HUGE living room, views for miles, great layout, 4 baths, 12 foot ceilings. But they painted one of the bedrooms yellow so I ran screaming rather than buy it.

I don't think the caesarstone choices I mentioned imitate marble. They don't look anything like marble. If anything, they look more like soapstone. I particularly like them because they look like natural stone, perform better, and yet are unique in coloration and consistency.

I find speckles difficult to deal with personally because I can never quite see if the countertop is clean of crumbs. Drives me crazy--had a rental with flecked black granite and just detested working on it. Also found the darkness not to my liking.

Terrazzo (is that how you spell it?) such as was on school and public building floors in the 20th c. is wonderful, but I don't think I want that look on my counters. Nice on floors though.

The goal is to pick something you love, that will last (since redoing a countertop is something most people take on only once per apt), and that will have appeal on resale. The stronger the "statement," the more taste-specific it is likely to be. One may LOVE an orange flecked stone or composite, but good luck liking it 5 years from now let alone reselling the apt.

I prefer to decorate with color (accessories, upholstery, rugs) but keep a more subdued palate for the hard-scaping if you will. For me, with classic creamy white shop-painted cabinetry with a classic design, light grey countertops provided the right amount of contrast. The relative uniformity of the caesarstone "pebble" lets me know when the surface is truly clean or crumby. And the two runs and L-shaped bar that are made of the material are without seams.

>I know. I saw the absolutely perfect apartment once; HUGE living room,
>views for miles, great layout, 4 baths, 12 foot ceilings. But they
>painted one of the bedrooms yellow so I ran screaming rather than buy it.

Amusing, but irrelevant. I'm happy to spend money to repaint, renovate, or even gut something that isn't physically workable, but not to change expensive stuff purely for my own aesthetic reasons. Everyone's tastes and relationship to their own money is different.

And mmm, Chunky Monkey ice cream....

granite needs to be sealed, and/or it can stain.

Take a look at some of the other engineered surfaced, there are ones that imho look much more like the stones of this world than caesarstone.

Re: color of cabinets/countertops (apropos of KW's commment) - a lot depends on how you want your kitchen to look from /relate to dining area, if doorway is or will be open a lot.

And your own color preferences will come out in your color choices - I simply do not like grays in a room, so would never have them in the kitchen. (Sort of like blonde women like taupey beiges, and brunettes like yellow beiges)

"And your own color preferences will come out in your color choices - I simply do not like grays in a room, so would never have them in the kitchen."

All the more reason why it's absurd to install granite countertops in order to boost resale value.

Hey Matt - we're talking about installing countertops to live with, not just to boost resale - granite does seem to help resale - but there are lots of colors, many neutrals.

I agree--I really don't like the look of granite; at open houses I always mentally add to my calculations the cost of replacing granite countertops with Caesarstone. There's also this, though, from a June, 2008 article on the health risks of granite:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/24/garden/24granite.html?_r=1&sq=granite%20kitchen%20%20%20radiation&st=nyt&scp=1&pagewanted=print

July 24, 2008
What’s Lurking in Your Countertop?
By KATE MURPHY
SHORTLY before Lynn Sugarman of Teaneck, N.J., bought her summer home in Lake George, N.Y., two years ago, a routine inspection revealed it had elevated levels of radon, a radioactive gas that can cause lung cancer. So she called a radon measurement and mitigation technician to find the source.

“He went from room to room,” said Dr. Sugarman, a pediatrician. But he stopped in his tracks in the kitchen, which had richly grained cream, brown and burgundy granite countertops. His Geiger counter indicated that the granite was emitting radiation at levels 10 times higher than those he had measured elsewhere in the house.

“My first thought was, my pregnant daughter was coming for the weekend,” Dr. Sugarman said. When the technician told her to keep her daughter several feet from the countertops just to be safe, she said, “I had them ripped out that very day,” and sent to the state Department of Health for analysis. The granite, it turned out, contained high levels of uranium, which is not only radioactive but releases radon gas as it decays. “The health risk to me and my family was probably small,” Dr. Sugarman said, “but I felt it was an unnecessary risk.”

As the popularity of granite countertops has grown in the last decade — demand for them has increased tenfold, according to the Marble Institute of America, a trade group representing granite fabricators — so have the types of granite available. For example, one source, Graniteland (graniteland.com) offers more than 900 kinds of granite from 63 countries. And with increased sales volume and variety, there have been more reports of “hot” or potentially hazardous countertops, particularly among the more exotic and striated varieties from Brazil and Namibia.

“It’s not that all granite is dangerous,” said Stanley Liebert, the quality assurance director at CMT Laboratories in Clifton Park, N.Y., who took radiation measurements at Dr. Sugarman’s house. “But I’ve seen a few that might heat up your Cheerios a little.”

Allegations that granite countertops may emit dangerous levels of radon and radiation have been raised periodically over the past decade, mostly by makers and distributors of competing countertop materials. The Marble Institute of America has said such claims are “ludicrous” because although granite is known to contain uranium and other radioactive materials like thorium and potassium, the amounts in countertops are not enough to pose a health threat.

Indeed, health physicists and radiation experts agree that most granite countertops emit radiation and radon at extremely low levels. They say these emissions are insignificant compared with so-called background radiation that is constantly raining down from outer space or seeping up from the earth’s crust, not to mention emanating from manmade sources like X-rays, luminous watches and smoke detectors.

But with increasing regularity in recent months, the Environmental Protection Agency has been receiving calls from radon inspectors as well as from concerned homeowners about granite countertops with radiation measurements several times above background levels. “We’ve been hearing from people all over the country concerned about high readings,” said Lou Witt, a program analyst with the agency’s Indoor Environments Division.

Last month, Suzanne Zick, who lives in Magnolia, Tex., a small town northwest of Houston, called the E.P.A. and her state’s health department to find out what she should do about the salmon-colored granite she had installed in her foyer a year and a half ago. A geology instructor at a community college, she realized belatedly that it could contain radioactive material and had it tested. The technician sent her a report indicating that the granite was emitting low to moderately high levels of both radon and radiation, depending on where along the stone the measurement was taken.

“I don’t really know what the numbers are telling me about my risk,” Ms. Zick said. “I don’t want to tear it out, but I don’t want cancer either.”

The E.P.A. recommends taking action if radon gas levels in the home exceeds 4 picocuries per liter of air (a measure of radioactive emission); about the same risk for cancer as smoking a half a pack of cigarettes per day. In Dr. Sugarman’s kitchen, the readings were 100 picocuries per liter. In her basement, where radon readings are expected to be higher because the gas usually seeps into homes from decaying uranium underground, the readings were 6 picocuries per liter.

The average person is subjected to radiation from natural and manmade sources at an annual level of 360 millirem (a measure of energy absorbed by the body), according to government agencies like the E.P.A. and the Nuclear Regulatory Commission. The limit of additional exposure set by the commission for people living near nuclear reactors is 100 millirem per year. To put this in perspective, passengers get 3 millirem of cosmic radiation on a flight from New York to Los Angeles.

A “hot” granite countertop like Dr. Sugarman’s might add a fraction of a millirem per hour and that is if you were a few inches from it or touching it the entire time.

Nevertheless, Mr. Witt said, “There is no known safe level of radon or radiation.” Moreover, he said, scientists agree that “any exposure increases your health risk.” A granite countertop that emits an extremely high level of radiation, as a small number of commercially available samples have in recent tests, could conceivably expose body parts that were in close proximity to it for two hours a day to a localized dose of 100 millirem over just a few months.

David J. Brenner, director of the Center for Radiological Research at Columbia University in New York, said the cancer risk from granite countertops, even those emitting radiation above background levels, is “on the order of one in a million.” Being struck by lightning is more likely. Nonetheless, Dr. Brenner said, “It makes sense. If you can choose another counter that doesn’t elevate your risk, however slightly, why wouldn’t you?”

Radon is the second leading cause of lung cancer after smoking and is considered especially dangerous to smokers, whose lungs are already compromised. Children and developing fetuses are vulnerable to radiation, which can cause other forms of cancer. Mr. Witt said the E.P.A. is not studying health risks associated with granite countertops because of a “lack of resources.”

The Marble Institute of America plans to develop a testing protocol for granite. “We want to reassure the public that their granite countertops are safe,” Jim Hogan, the group’s president, said earlier this month “We know the vast majority of granites are safe, but there are some new exotic varieties coming in now that we’ve never seen before, and we need to use sound science to evaluate them.”

Research scientists at Rice University in Houston and at the New York State Department of Health are currently conducting studies of granite widely used in kitchen counters. William J. Llope, a professor of physics at Rice, said his preliminary results show that of the 55 samples he has collected from nearby fabricators and wholesalers, all of which emit radiation at higher-than-background levels, a handful have tested at levels 100 times or more above background.

Personal injury lawyers are already advertising on the Web for clients who think they may have been injured by countertops. “I think it will be like the mold litigation a few years back, where some cases were legitimate and a whole lot were not,” said Ernest P. Chiodo, a physician and lawyer in Detroit who specializes in toxic tort law. His kitchen counters are granite, he said, “but I don’t spend much time in the kitchen.”

As for Dr. Sugarman, the contractor of the house she bought in Lake George paid for the removal of her “hot” countertops. She replaced them with another type of granite. “But I had them tested first,” she said.

Where to Find Tests and Testers

TO find a certified technician to determine whether radiation or radon is emanating from a granite countertop, homeowners can contact the American Association of Radon Scientists and Technologists (aarst.org). Testing costs between $100 and $300.

Information on certified technicians and do-it-yourself radon testing kits is available from the Environmental Protection Agency’s Web site at epa.gov/radon, as well as from state or regional indoor air environment offices, which can be found at epa.gov/iaq/whereyoulive.html. Kits test for radon, not radiation, and cost $20 to $30. They are sold at hardware stores and online.

And then the doctor replaced the original granite countertops with new granite countertops. People do still like granite.

Actually cherry with a tongue oil finish is remarkably durable. No hot pans please but that is what a trivet is for. The additional upside is that it looks classic prewar and it can easily be removed. Cherry counters last 50 years or more and never look too dated. In addition if glasses hit it they do not burst into a thousand pieces. I agree granite is dreadful. It indicates an unthinking money spending re-do. Best of luck.

Maybe this tells us that as natural as granite is, it was never meant to be INSIDE our homes.

i like granite - unpolished granite is great, also.

no matt, i think this tells us that some people really like granite and other people don't. i don't like granite and i bought a house with granite. i hate waste, so luckily the cherry cabinets aren't holding up so well and the renovation cut a bunch of corners so i will feel less wasteful ripping it all out and starting over in a year or so.

put in what you like. quality with an enduring style will find a buyer.