What Is It That I Don't Know?

I'm still learning the Upper West Side (I work for a downtown firm, but I just moved up here this summer).

But holy moly, look at those taxes. Would you rather own that than 310 WEA, #4B?

ali r.
{downtown broker}

Careful what you say, nyc10023 may be listening.

allonfla - are you saying this is too high or too low? neighborhood is NOT undesirable but its not the best UWS public school district. the obvious: it's a townhouse right off CPW. looks like it needs some work, but still....

sorry, i assumed it was PS161, but its PS9, so even better i think.

They should have cleaned up that graffiti and moved the ugly bike/child seat before photographing. Makes the place look like a dump.

that doesn't really matter imo. anyone who's interested in townhouses and knows the neighborhood can draw accurate conclusions from the address alone. it's not a bad location.

maybe the photos are strategic. maybe they want it to scream "fixer-upper" to draw the right buyers. they certainly didn't have to post those pictures.

The price tag certainly does not scream 'fixer-upper'.

A similar townhouse (on W 84th, I believe) sold for two and change, if I remember correctly, several months ago. That was a fixer-upper. This one does not appear to be marketed as a fixer-upper.

But I do agree that someone in the market for a brownstone is going to know what he's looking at. That said, there is a lot to be said for the psychology of 'curb appeal' and unfortunately, blights like graffiti (hoodlums in the nabe! Oh my!) don't help with that.

normally low prices on UWS townhouses mean that there is a rent stabilized or rent controlled tenant in 1 or more of the units.

Allon: it's a park block TH, while it's not W69th or 70th, it's still a pretty nice block across from white-glove CPW. If you owned a TH, you can afford to spring for private school. PS9 is not a horrible backup option either. As for taxes, there is some likelihood that changing the tax class on this prop will bring down the taxes. You'll still be paying 30k+ annually which is the same as a 200RSB 4br condo.

If a W84th TH on the same block sold for 2m+, you can bet there were RC/RS tenants. I think you're thinking of the W85th listing which had RS tenants and sold for 2m+ (all cash, closing in 1wk, multiple bids).

FP: the buyer pool for 310WEA, 4B is way diff. than buyer pool for this prop.

Say you get this place for 3.9, spend 500k converting it into single-fam. You have a 8br+ place with cellar, outdoor space. If you can "put up" with TH living, tell me what you can get (even in this market) for 5m if you need that many BRs.

Also, with a TH, you have control over your building, unlike a co-op or condo.

Unless you're the octo-mom, do you really need eight+ bedrooms??

all those stairs is a bit of a drag for a fancy price, no?

Squid: that's why the buyer pool is smaller. I know of a few instances where 8brs are handy for extended family, live-in staff, etc. It's really 6brs + 2 floors of living space (parlor & garden - you can have a br and den in your gdn floor depending on how you configure kitch).

PMG: I'd say a five-floor house like this needs an elevator for resale.

You're correct, nyc10023. The buyer pool is smaller. Which is why, IMO, it's important to market and price the place correctly. I'm not so certain about the $4.3 pricetag.

Re: the stairs issue--yes, an elevator is a definite must. But, there's nothing to be done about the stoop. If you've got a baby stroller, cart of groceries--what a drag to schlep them up all those stairs.

Down four or so steps from street, then up elevator. Barring elevator, yes.

nyc10023, do you find a lot of elevators in renovated brownstones? I didn't know they're so common. It must be tough to find a place for them, especially if you want to preserve architectural details (woodwork, etc.)

Squid - I disagree about the asking price for a "fixer-upper" UWS TH. I, of course, strolled by this on our morning constitution. It is what it is. The facade is a bit of a mess, but it's a nice street in a nice location, seems to have some nice original detail, not as chopped up as many TH's, and no RS/RC tenants. Who knows how negotiable that asking price is. Silly to get hung-up on the graffiti, imo, especially if you know the neighborhood. Elevators, of course, would be ideal, but put the old-folks (in-laws) in the bottom level, the "man/sport watching room" up top, and live on the middle three floors. it'll keep you in shape and kids have lots of energy.

it's also funny to me how many people get hung-up on the "stoop" entrance. What is it, like 10-12 stairs? How many suburban homes have stairs leading up to them? Granted, it's NOT ideal with a baby stroller, but groceries, bags, etc. I suppose you wouldn't want a stoop if you were handicapped, but other than that...come on.

ah, but then grandpa can't make it up to the man room to watch the game. maybe an elevator is essential then.

uwsmom, my sister lives in a garden apartment in Long Island and there are five shallow steps from the parking lot to her front door. The problem that she always has is thoroughly cleaning the steps if it snows so that it's not icy at all on the steps. Otherwise her steps get very slippery in spots. Good idea about checking out the building in person.

yes, most homes outside of manhattan have steps leading up to them and you need to care for them properly (why does it feel silly making this statement :).

Salt isn't included in the CPI.

Heavy winters in NYC drive up the cost of living for millionaires, what with the salting they have to do for their 5 steps.

Dexter's also trying to sell the one 2 doors down: http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/375294-anyhouse-45-west-84th-street-upper-west-side-new-york

here's the townhouse experts link: http://www.townhouseexperts.com/PropertyDetail2.asp?area=new&listing=249

interesting comparison.

uwsmom, you make many astute comments on this board so an occasional silly remark is no big deal. Not that your comment was actually silly. Are you expecting soon? How are you feeling these days?

Ha. Thanks lobster. That's very nice. 2 weeks to go. Feeling very big, but otherwise ok.

two weeks, that's great. You must be very excited. Is everything all set up for the baby?

see, now I made a silly remark. You're 8 1/2 months pregnant taking care of a small child. I think that's enough for anyone to deal with.

:)
I'm not sure you're ever "ready" for a new baby...

AH: generally, the THs on the UWS and UES don't have the same jaw-dropping intact details found in brownstone Bk or places less gentrified. Also, most THs have been chopped up into apts, so some detail has been lost at some point so that incorporating an elevator isn't a big deal.

While they haven't been common, it's almost foolish not to install one if the cost is small relative to cost of the house - you have now eliminated the factor that would drive away x% of buyers.

Squid: the price does actually whisper "needs some work". This house does not work as a multi-fam rental property investment. The cap rate is miniscule at 4m, 3m.

But think about it this way: if the house were priced at 2m, it would quickly get bid up to X in this market.
Ditto pricing the house at 3m. So I can say confidently that it would certainly sell above 3m. Now, how much above 3m, I don't know. So do yo price at 3m to get bids at 3.5 or do you price at 4.3 to get bids at 3.5?

As for 45W84, I went through the exercise of ACRIS-ing and googling the previous & current owners & the lender. Suffice it to say that a banking license is all too easy to obtain. 45 is the biggest reason why 41 may have trouble selling.

Stoops are annoying, but not all stoops are made equal. I also think that if this house were sold to a family with young children that the parents of said children would not be the ones struggling with a stroller and/or groceries on a regular basis. Easy enough to descend 2 steps into garden level, and park strollers & groceries there (if kitch is down there).

really? you don't think vice versa...that 41 will make it harder to sell 45? especially if 41 drops to, or sells for, high 3's?

does it take $700,000 to strip a place down to studs and brick?

45 will be crazy hard to sell whether or not 41 is on the market. 41 will sell before 45, but IMO, 41 will sell for 3s and that will make it harder to get close-to-ask bids for 41 (which I think shouldn't be difficult).

41 has a unique set of problems which will make it very hard to finance.

uwsmom: nope, it doesn't take 700k to strip down to studs if you're doing it by brute force. But it does take 700k to preserve & work around details worth preserving, assuming that you do not have the skill set to GC and have adequate engineering knowledge to pay very minimal architect fees.

Repost: mixed up the numbers.

45 will be crazy hard to sell whether or not 41 is on the market. 41 will sell before 45, but IMO, 45 will sell for 3s (and be a mental "anchor" price in buyers' heads) and that will make it harder to get close-to-ask bids for 41 (which I think shouldn't be difficult).

45 has a unique set of problems which will make it very hard to finance.

these will be interesting to watch. just based on price, i agree that 41 goes first (have no idea of the background info you looked up)

The taxes are very high, and the city is not in the mood to reassess to a lower tax number. You have to assume taxes are only going to move up dramatically. I owned a townhouse from 98 to 08 and RE taxes went from 19k/yr to 44k/yr, much faster than inflation. They are only going higher, as they will in any municipality. 127 e88 is on the market for 4.4mm and has current tax bill of $13k/yr.

Unfortunately, you still can't look at a single family or 2/3 family homes from a cap rate perspective. You will never find it to be a good investment.....unless we continue to see prices drop dramatically, which isn't impossible.

then, best for TH buyers if 45 goes first at such a low price. But, they seem to be inching their price down too slowly. 3's is very different from 5.

CLT89: the tax class changes if you convert to 1-fam. Location-wise, 127W88 isn't really the same as W84 bet. CPW and Col. although the details are mostly intact.

uwsmom: they "can't" reduce their price because they'd be below water, and this particular lender is clueless. Short sale is coming to #45.

clt89: in another thread, i call a quick sale for 127 W 88 (say, within 6 months), somewhere between 3.8-4.2

we'll see :)

clt: don't know anything about cap-rate investment perspective long arm percentages....(whatever :). i see a TH as a great place to live in order to adopt a dozen kids :)...ok, maybe just 3 or 4...

Given that city revenue from RE transfer taxes has effectively disappeared over the past 2 years, I would not be will to bet that changing to a single family home will guarantee a relevant tax reduction. It is rather opaque process and given the current budget issues taxes going way up. Bloomberg, a couple of years ago simply changed the "millage" rate and taxes randomly went up about 25% (can't remember the year, but I remember the bill!). I would be very surprised if we don't see another similar action in the next couple of years.

uws: You are right, you buy a house to live in. It just isn't going to be a great "cash flow investment" property. If space is what you want, you don't mind stairs and don't need a doorman, then there is absolutely no better value that TH living. Plus don't need to deal with co-op board.

i may need to give up my TH dreams. this thread made me miss my opportunity for an afternoon nap :(

uwsmom -- you may want to reconsider your TH dreams after reading this.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/realestate/09cov.html?_r=1

A lot of kvetching over not paying $200 for someone to do the garbage, leaves & snow removal. Cheap compared to the mtce of many Manhattan apts.

reconsider? yes, b/c now my daughter is eating her crayons b/c i'm on the computer. thanks for the link. will read later.

Ah, if you have 2, at some point they will be playing happily with each other & yell for you if the other one is eating crayons.

mine gave up crayons last week.

i think the th in the OP has potential. there will always be a large percentage of people who have no tolerance for th living. but for those who are willing to climb and shovel (or pay), they can be dreamy.

Thanks guys, I learned a lot. I'm always concerned about graffiti. Is it a one time thing or a menace that I will have to deal with over the years. As for bedrooms, until I see size of each room, that number is meaningless to me.

I was suspicious about the price because I thought it was in a good location, had all those levels and a lot of square footage. And the outside is not exactly plain.

I did the room count based on having 2 bedrooms/floor with plumbing in the middle for bathrooms. As this TH is a 19-footer, that means that each bedroom will be at least 19' (minus a few inches for wall) X 12' (depends on how many baths/closets you want to add in the middle). Pretty much all THs shake out that way if they are under 20' in width, if you keep the baths in the middle. That's a very generous room size and you have 3 floors of bedrooms here (assume parlor & garden form living space & guest suite).

So that's 6 bedrooms, more if your fenestration allows you to have 2 bedrooms in the rear and you are okay with 9'ish wide rooms. And that's assuming that there's no extension - which can be used for a bathroom or just a larger bedroom.

KISS - i thought it might actually be an article to dissuade me. those people are just spoiled and annoying. i open my own door now at 8.5 months pregnant with child in stroller and 3 bags of groceries. i may be of a different breed than these folks. i don't see garbage, or stairs, or no doorman, or hiring a plumber, electrician, etc as an inconvenience. i see it as part of home ownership, which i am very much looking forward to someday. and yes, if we had a TH I would likely hire people to help, but god help me if i complain like these people. someone please be around to smack me if i do.

though i do sympathize with the breastfeeding woman up 4 flights of stairs. i'm a big door and phone ignorer though. if i haven't arranged to meet or speak to you, how important could it be? ;) that's what email and voicemail are for.

uwsmom, I'm with you as a natural DIY/cheapskate, though most of my friends and colleagues willingly pay a premium for convenience/services (doorman, super, etc). Could be though because of the hours they work/travel, and certainly as you get older you value your time more highly and outsource what you can.

and if i ever say "my marriage would have been perfect had it not been for vertical living", just shoot me.