I visited six apartments on Sunday, and will post comments as time permits. I hope others will contribute. 470 West End Avenue #14FG Coop, 4BR ~2.5BA, ~2450 sq.ft. $2,495,000 Maint. $3147 This new listing offers a prodigious corner space in a well-established coop on a prime stretch of WEA. At the open house, numbers like 2700-2800 square feet were mentioned. I think 2450 is more likely. At any... [more]
I visited six apartments on Sunday, and will post comments as time permits. I hope others will contribute.
470 West End Avenue #14FG
Coop, 4BR ~2.5BA, ~2450 sq.ft.
$2,495,000 Maint. $3147
This new listing offers a prodigious corner space in a well-established coop on a prime stretch of WEA. At the open house, numbers like 2700-2800 square feet were mentioned. I think 2450 is more likely. At any rate, the footprint is ample for a large three-bedroom apartment or a reasonable 4BR.
Halstead's text explains, "Originally two separate apartments, this home has been combined but can be redesigned to your heart's content." That's a tactful way of saying that the combination, probably done about seven years ago, comprised removing 14F's kitchen and part of the wall separating the two living rooms, and shifting some closet space.
The result is rambling and awkward. The kitchen is tiny, and is separated from the dining room by the narrow foyer and a piece of the living room. The two bedroom wings are reached via the living room and dining room, respectively, and do not communication with each other or the foyer. Fractions of bathrooms are scattered in odd corners. So bring your architect and start over. Halstead has roughed out one possible floor plan; I think it calls attention to the challenges more than it solves them, particularly with regard to the placement of bathrooms. This isn't an easy job, and it will cost real money.
The question, then, is whether it's worth doing. My first concern would be the price of the raw materials. Same-line comps from 2006-2008 suggest that $2.495MM is close to what #14F and #14G would have fetched, cumulatively, at the top of the market. This year, #10F failed to sell even after cutting below $1MM. In the front of the building, #14B (about 20% smaller and similarly raw) sold earlier this year for $1.6MM.
Another worry for the rear section of 470 is what might eventually happen to the adjacent buildings. #14FG currently enjoys open views to the east, over Barnes & Noble, and to the south, over PS811M/Mickey Mantle. I think the school is landmarked. Clearly, a buyer should do careful diligence into the possibility of high-rise development on either site. Even if the views and light endure, the back side of 470 WEA will always play second fiddle to the swankier apartments facing West End. A $3MM apartment with a lot of $1MM neighbors might not be the best bet for resale. Nonetheless, the current selection of UWS 3-4BRs is so weak that #14FG could attract a lot of interest.
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Response by West81st
about 16 years ago
Posts: 5564
Member since: Jan 2008
Sorry, "communication" s/b "communicate".
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Response by NYRENewbie
about 16 years ago
Posts: 591
Member since: Mar 2008
Nice to read your open house reports once again. Thanks.
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Response by KISS
about 16 years ago
Posts: 303
Member since: Mar 2008
Wonderful to see your OH reports again. Would love to see your analyses on downtown places too in the future.
A beautifully renovated (I rarely say this) red-brick TH on WEA went on the market for close to 5m 2 years ago, and went into K almost immediately, but I don't see a recorded sale in ACRIS.
At 4.8ishm, 305W78 has few remaining details, apart from fps and staircase. It is in good move-in condition, but I suspect if someone bought they would spend some money updating. The layout is predictable for a narrow house, 2 bedrooms/ floor with plumbing stack in the middle, kitchen on the ground floor, living space on parlor. This house also has 2 narrow rooms on the 5th floor behind brickwork (not necessarily true of its other red-brick neighbors) and a small extension off the back which yields some upper-floor deck space for a rear bedroom.
As far as interior condition goes, the 10yr+ renovation stripped most of the walls down to the brick. Some dig this look, I don't. Because of the relatively recent renovation, I would think that the plumbing stack and electricals arein okay condition, so it's more of a case of replacing fixtures to your taste. The heating/AC system is a combo of steam radiator/ductless AC, which will appeal to some and not others.
This house will not appeal to those looking for intact detail or width. The trouble is getting a handle on renovation costs - to some, this will look like a gut job, to others it will look like a cosmetic renovation, which will still take a great deal of money and time. So, even though it's in move-in condition, the price does not reflect the work which needs to be done.
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Response by hsw9001
about 16 years ago
Posts: 278
Member since: Apr 2007
The Alfred
161 West 61st Street #3A
$ 1.025 M
1,167 ft�
$878 per ft�
4 rooms 2 beds, 1 bath, 1 half bath
Common Charges: $1,326
Taxes: $980
This is a 1.5 bdrm with a wall put up to make a second bedroom. I've seen a higher apartment with the same line w/o the partitioning and the partitioning makes the living room much more cramped (as expected). I like the double height ceilings of the living room but the second bedroom really takes away from that grandeur. Monthly charges of > $2000 for a condo is kind of steep.
One thing I wonder about is this same apartment was marketed as 973 sq ft in 07 along with other apartments in the same line. Now it is marketed as 1167 sq ft. I wonder where the 200 sq ft cames from.
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Response by walterh7
about 16 years ago
Posts: 383
Member since: Dec 2006
Plenty of traffic at 277 WEA. I never had the chance to see 6C. How bad was it compared to 6D? I didn't think 6D was a super high reno but a solid one done nicely. The baths and kitchen were the highlights and done well (though cabinets in the kitchen were not particularly robust, but looked nice).
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Response by nyc10023
about 16 years ago
Posts: 7614
Member since: Nov 2008
6C needed "everything" - everything was original and not well-maintained. On the other hand, I'm an advocate of the light touch when you are working with original condition prewar apts. The floors just needed sanding down & matte finish poly. New electricals - but that means running new BX cable everywhere which means holes in the plaster, messy but you don't need to take down the walls. Plaster walls - skim coating. No woodwork to strip. New baths, but huge charm in the original fixtures and nothing wrong with placement - so just rip all bathroom walls down to put in new cement board, new plumbing where necessary. New kitchen - but I think the old cabs were wood & glass, so could be stripped & incorporated into design.
If the traffic was great for 6D, then buyers are indeed sheep, when they could have had 6C with one more bedroom for less. Granted that 6D is west of 6C, so I suppose you could stick your neck out the window and see more of RSD and the Hudson.
I just noticed that 12MD (13th flr) is on the market - ditto with the estate-condition 12MC closing for less last year (before Lehman).
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Response by nyc10023
about 16 years ago
Posts: 7614
Member since: Nov 2008
In addition, the C-line apts had a larger foyer (15+' X 11+') adjacent to the DR, which means more flexibility in configuring the DR/kitch area which is always problematic in these separated LR/DR prewar apts.
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Response by liquidpaper
about 16 years ago
Posts: 309
Member since: Jan 2009
re: 277 WEA - When I looked at 12MC a few years ago the next door neighbor from 12MD was considering bidding for and then combining. We looked at what that apartment would have been like (well out of my budget) and concluded it would have been an easy combo and resulted in a terrific apartment with great light & river views. I guess it ddidn't break that way for him, I wonder if whoever bot 12MC will think about this opportunity
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Response by lizyank
about 16 years ago
Posts: 907
Member since: Oct 2006
Woo Hoo West 81st OH comments are back!!! One of the reasons I got hooked on SE to begin with. 10023 is also a great correspondent although I guess we are about to lose her real soon to additional newborn/keeping siblings happy responsiblity.
Starting to think I should do some Gramercy Park OH's...
336 Central Park West #9F
Coop, 2BR 2BA + maid's, ~1750 sq.ft.
$1,875,000 Maint. $2216
#9F is a pleasant classic six in nearly move-in condition. The "nearly" is an important caveat. At a minimum, buyers should budget for new appliances, because several of the name-brand units touted in the listing are near end-of-life. Nothing else seems to need immediate attention.
Flow is decent but imperfect. Access to most of the apartment is through the dining room. Options for modifying the floor plan include routing traffic through the living room (the original configuration), creating a small hallway between the LR and DR (as in #5F) or opening up the front half of the apartment. In the third scenario, the DR window could be used to create an additional bedroom. The extra room would be of reasonable size and could be incorporated into the bedroom wing. On the downside, the occupant would probably have to use the cramped maid's bathroom.
I think the bedroom wing is the strength of the apartment. The master suite is excellent, with a dressing room that could easily host a home office in a corner where the owners currently have a dresser. Closet space is extensive. The second bedroom is reasonably big, with en-suite bathroom. Currently, the width of BR2 is reduced by built-ins that include a Murphy bed. The quality seems quite good, and a buyer might consider keeping it.
During the boom years, the secondary six-room lines in the rear wing of 336 CPW enjoyed impressive appreciation. The run-up culminated in H1 2008 with the repeat sale of #4F, in poor condition, for $2.1MM and then $2.3MM, and the sale of #10E for $2.667MM. (2008 also featured a swap of #15F and #2EF that involved impressive numbers.)
In 2009, the pickings have been much less lush. #5F, fully renovated, failed to sell after cutting to $2MM. The important recent sale, however, took place on the front side of the building. #7B - in excellent condition, with much better flow and park views from the LR and MBR - fetched just $2.2MM after opening at $2.995MM. That was a June contract. #9F debuted in September at $1.995MM, and now asks $1.875MM. If #9F sells close to ask, it will be a sign that either the market is firming or the premium for views here is surprisingly narrow. The agent for #9F also sold #7B.
By the way, 336 CPW has an informative web site at www.336cpw.org.
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Response by West81st
about 16 years ago
Posts: 5564
Member since: Jan 2008
I should have mentioned that the views to the north over 94th Street from the LR and MBR of #9F are about 50% open. It's not a particularly bright apartment, but it's not a cave either.
Sorry, "communication" s/b "communicate".
Nice to read your open house reports once again. Thanks.
Wonderful to see your OH reports again. Would love to see your analyses on downtown places too in the future.
305W78 - single-family TH, an orphaned part of the red-brick row of townhouses on WEA, bet. 78th & 79th. http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/04/realestate/streetscapes-west-end-avenue-78th-street-blazing-red-that-reproached-sea-brown.html
A beautifully renovated (I rarely say this) red-brick TH on WEA went on the market for close to 5m 2 years ago, and went into K almost immediately, but I don't see a recorded sale in ACRIS.
At 4.8ishm, 305W78 has few remaining details, apart from fps and staircase. It is in good move-in condition, but I suspect if someone bought they would spend some money updating. The layout is predictable for a narrow house, 2 bedrooms/ floor with plumbing stack in the middle, kitchen on the ground floor, living space on parlor. This house also has 2 narrow rooms on the 5th floor behind brickwork (not necessarily true of its other red-brick neighbors) and a small extension off the back which yields some upper-floor deck space for a rear bedroom.
As far as interior condition goes, the 10yr+ renovation stripped most of the walls down to the brick. Some dig this look, I don't. Because of the relatively recent renovation, I would think that the plumbing stack and electricals arein okay condition, so it's more of a case of replacing fixtures to your taste. The heating/AC system is a combo of steam radiator/ductless AC, which will appeal to some and not others.
This house will not appeal to those looking for intact detail or width. The trouble is getting a handle on renovation costs - to some, this will look like a gut job, to others it will look like a cosmetic renovation, which will still take a great deal of money and time. So, even though it's in move-in condition, the price does not reflect the work which needs to be done.
The Alfred
161 West 61st Street #3A
$ 1.025 M
1,167 ft�
$878 per ft�
4 rooms 2 beds, 1 bath, 1 half bath
Common Charges: $1,326
Taxes: $980
This is a 1.5 bdrm with a wall put up to make a second bedroom. I've seen a higher apartment with the same line w/o the partitioning and the partitioning makes the living room much more cramped (as expected). I like the double height ceilings of the living room but the second bedroom really takes away from that grandeur. Monthly charges of > $2000 for a condo is kind of steep.
One thing I wonder about is this same apartment was marketed as 973 sq ft in 07 along with other apartments in the same line. Now it is marketed as 1167 sq ft. I wonder where the 200 sq ft cames from.
Plenty of traffic at 277 WEA. I never had the chance to see 6C. How bad was it compared to 6D? I didn't think 6D was a super high reno but a solid one done nicely. The baths and kitchen were the highlights and done well (though cabinets in the kitchen were not particularly robust, but looked nice).
6C needed "everything" - everything was original and not well-maintained. On the other hand, I'm an advocate of the light touch when you are working with original condition prewar apts. The floors just needed sanding down & matte finish poly. New electricals - but that means running new BX cable everywhere which means holes in the plaster, messy but you don't need to take down the walls. Plaster walls - skim coating. No woodwork to strip. New baths, but huge charm in the original fixtures and nothing wrong with placement - so just rip all bathroom walls down to put in new cement board, new plumbing where necessary. New kitchen - but I think the old cabs were wood & glass, so could be stripped & incorporated into design.
If the traffic was great for 6D, then buyers are indeed sheep, when they could have had 6C with one more bedroom for less. Granted that 6D is west of 6C, so I suppose you could stick your neck out the window and see more of RSD and the Hudson.
I just noticed that 12MD (13th flr) is on the market - ditto with the estate-condition 12MC closing for less last year (before Lehman).
In addition, the C-line apts had a larger foyer (15+' X 11+') adjacent to the DR, which means more flexibility in configuring the DR/kitch area which is always problematic in these separated LR/DR prewar apts.
re: 277 WEA - When I looked at 12MC a few years ago the next door neighbor from 12MD was considering bidding for and then combining. We looked at what that apartment would have been like (well out of my budget) and concluded it would have been an easy combo and resulted in a terrific apartment with great light & river views. I guess it ddidn't break that way for him, I wonder if whoever bot 12MC will think about this opportunity
Woo Hoo West 81st OH comments are back!!! One of the reasons I got hooked on SE to begin with. 10023 is also a great correspondent although I guess we are about to lose her real soon to additional newborn/keeping siblings happy responsiblity.
Starting to think I should do some Gramercy Park OH's...
At some point in the next 100 years, apt 14A/B/C (can't tell which) will come on the market -
http://www.villagevoice.com/2000-04-18/news/elder-hostile/
And, the mother of all combinations ...
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/realestate/11habi.html
336 Central Park West #9F
Coop, 2BR 2BA + maid's, ~1750 sq.ft.
$1,875,000 Maint. $2216
#9F is a pleasant classic six in nearly move-in condition. The "nearly" is an important caveat. At a minimum, buyers should budget for new appliances, because several of the name-brand units touted in the listing are near end-of-life. Nothing else seems to need immediate attention.
Flow is decent but imperfect. Access to most of the apartment is through the dining room. Options for modifying the floor plan include routing traffic through the living room (the original configuration), creating a small hallway between the LR and DR (as in #5F) or opening up the front half of the apartment. In the third scenario, the DR window could be used to create an additional bedroom. The extra room would be of reasonable size and could be incorporated into the bedroom wing. On the downside, the occupant would probably have to use the cramped maid's bathroom.
I think the bedroom wing is the strength of the apartment. The master suite is excellent, with a dressing room that could easily host a home office in a corner where the owners currently have a dresser. Closet space is extensive. The second bedroom is reasonably big, with en-suite bathroom. Currently, the width of BR2 is reduced by built-ins that include a Murphy bed. The quality seems quite good, and a buyer might consider keeping it.
During the boom years, the secondary six-room lines in the rear wing of 336 CPW enjoyed impressive appreciation. The run-up culminated in H1 2008 with the repeat sale of #4F, in poor condition, for $2.1MM and then $2.3MM, and the sale of #10E for $2.667MM. (2008 also featured a swap of #15F and #2EF that involved impressive numbers.)
In 2009, the pickings have been much less lush. #5F, fully renovated, failed to sell after cutting to $2MM. The important recent sale, however, took place on the front side of the building. #7B - in excellent condition, with much better flow and park views from the LR and MBR - fetched just $2.2MM after opening at $2.995MM. That was a June contract. #9F debuted in September at $1.995MM, and now asks $1.875MM. If #9F sells close to ask, it will be a sign that either the market is firming or the premium for views here is surprisingly narrow. The agent for #9F also sold #7B.
By the way, 336 CPW has an informative web site at www.336cpw.org.
I should have mentioned that the views to the north over 94th Street from the LR and MBR of #9F are about 50% open. It's not a particularly bright apartment, but it's not a cave either.