Housing options for family with 1 boy and 1 girl

That's why Brooklyn is so popular. You can get a nice 3br rental for under $4,000.

Can't imagine too many said families are currently paying close to $4k on 3br rental in Brooklyn. If they are spending $4k for housing and willing to live in Brooklyn, won't they buy something there instead?

Not if to buy a similar place would cost them $6,000 a month. It's the same reason why people who rent for $6,000 don't necessarily buy, because it would cost them $8,000 to $9,000 to buy the equivalent apartment.

I have friends with three kids (2 boys, 1 girl) who are living quite comfortably on the Upper West Side in a large 2-bedroom apartment for $2600/month.

I understand and agree with the logic. I'm just specifically not convinced that too many "average middle/upper middle class family with 1 boy and 1 girl" would pick the route of renting a $4k rental in Brooklyn. I don't know who's right since I have not numbers/sources. It's just my gut feeling.

Anyone else out there with in that situation or know someone in that situation? Or better yet, have some published statistics on the subject?

I also have friends (lesbian couple) with three kids (2 girls, 1 boy) who live in a nice 3-bedroom house in Dyker Heights. I don't know what they paid for the house, but they've been able to swing it on one teacher's salary.

Matt, how old are the kids? I can imagine it's ok when they're very young.

Which family?

UWS couple's kids are in the 8-14 range.

Dyker Heights dykes (sorry couldn't resist) have kids in the 3-8 age range, I believe.

Matt, my previous Q was referring to the 2bd. As for the the 3br in Dyker Heights. That sounds like a realistic option. That full sentence from your post was a bit funny though. I know, it's childish on my part. :)

Family with boys and girls in 8-14 age range can't be that comfortable. Privacy issues?

What they did was annex a part of the kids' bedroom (which is huge ... looks like 12x18), separating the girl's "room" with a very attractive semi-permanent translucent glass wall with sliding door.

When I was a kid with siblings in that age range, my family was in a 2br for a couple of years, the living rm became a bedroom...

With a 12' X 18' room, I can see how that would work. Don't know too many 2brs with that size rooms.

Three of my cousins (2 boys and a girl) shared the same bedroom until they graduated college and moved out of the house. No problems. It's not like you're "naked" all the time in your room -- they used to just take turns in the room alone when they were changing clothes. No big deal.

Americans have way too many hangups about sex, "privacy", and of course an obsession with personal space.

Matt. So what? I had an adopted cousin who was schizophrenic (really) and I had to live with her when my mom had cancer when I was in 5th grade. It was hell. There are good, decent,not so good and awful compromises in terms of living arrangements. Some, like mine, horrible though they might be, are necessary. Others are choices made when other choices exist.

My relative, a boy with 2 older sisters and 1 younger sister, was orphaned by a war. No problems. It's not like he was going to marry them -- he found a woman and got married. No big deal.

Americans have way too many hangups about family, life, and of course an obsession with things that are NORMAL.

Fucking moron.

soosu, maybe I ask who you were directing that last statement to and why?

Matt, I agree with you to some extent. I would want my kids to share a room for as long as possible, even if I had an extra room. I think it would strengthen their bonds as siblings. However, as an introvert, I do appreciate my alone time for sanity reasons.

happily wed for 20 years, yale degree, good self esteem, lovely daughter who is doing stupendously, wonderful travel, nice rental home, beautiful country home.

thanks for making me focus on the good. and nice of you to make fun of someone who had a mother suffering from cancer. you're a PRIZE!!

your morality issues? you care about language oh so much. ethics not so much.

ar, sorry to hear that.

I imagine many people do end up in some uncomfortable living situations for at least part of their childhood. It just seems like NYC is not really build for housing an average middle/upper middle class family with 1 boy and 1 girl, based on the typical preference to have them in separate rooms. Most multiple family dwellings/condos/co-ops seems to be 1br or 2br units. 1 family houses seem very expensive or have terrible commutes.

ar, good to hear things turn out pretty good for you afterall.

ooo, you're there, just waiting, aren't you? wow, 30 seconds? pitiful.

get a life. you haven't shared anything about yours. i can only surmise why.

i have a FABULOUS life. jealous, much?

sorry, sunday, i let myself be distracted. i think one of the major questions left unasked here is school. if you need or feel you need private school in NYC for two kids (if not at the elementary level maybe the junior high school level) you're talking a huge difference.

but even if you're not, preschool is hugely expensive these days. everything is expensive. back in the day (3-4 years ago) my whole commentary here was about how tough it was for people in the upper middle class to do OK in terms of real estate, school, etc. in NYC. it's not that i don't feel the same today, it's that we're doing better, relatively. and so, while i have very vivid memories of having a hard time coming up with the cash for tuition (after 9/11, when law firms cut bonuses to the bone, just because they could, we actually had to borrow for private school tuition, i sold the condo shortly thereafter), it's not a theme i can talk about so genuinely these days.

are there areas you might be interested in? do you need schools? is it a work/life balance thing? you or your spouse want to be at home earlier? so many issues.

Re-posting question:

Housing options for an average middle/upper middle class family with 1 boy and 1 girl seems very limited in NYC.

Anyone else out there with in that situation or know someone in that situation? Or better yet, have some published statistics on the subject?

published stats would lag, if that makes any sense. but the city has been hell for a number of years (about 11) for those who are middle class with kids. upper middle class, one kid might have been ok.

"It just seems like NYC is not really build for housing an average middle/upper middle class family with 1 boy and 1 girl, based on the typical preference to have them in separate rooms."

Not really.

It's "based on TODAY'S preference to have them in separate rooms."

Generations ago, brothers and sisters shared rooms with no problem.

Agree, both housing costs & private school costs have risen way much higher than the rate of inflation. Curiously enough, this seems to be true in many cities, not just NYC.

NYCMatt- interesting comment, because the classic 6's were built for families, which back then most often consisted of 2 adults/2 children, so it was probably much more common then to have two kids sharing a room, even if brother/sister. (and, back then the maid's room was actually for the maid)

ar, I'm not actually in that situation at this point. I just thought it's an interesting topic. Schools are a very important factor as you pointed out and it only adds to the difficulty.

I understand your point about how even the upper middle class has a tough time in the city. Before people start screaming about how they are doing better than a lot of people making less, the point is that being in the 'upper middle' is suppose to mean comfortable living situations and no money issues. At least that's my definition. Perhaps, the upper middle class here is really just middle class and that you have to be making a million a year to be called 'upper' middle class. I'm just throwing random numbers out to make a point, so others, please don't start arguing with me about the specifics.

I think the golden age for the "middle class" or the bottom end of the "upper middle class" ended in the late 70s.

a couple of years ago on this board people told me that there wasn't really any way we could be upper middle class on one law firm income (unless senior partner). i can't tell you how many junior law firm partners used to buy apartments (any time prior to 2004) in very prime locations.

the question has been interesting to me for years. i think it depends on the number of children. with one child i'd say $700k is upper middle class (primish manhattan) if you're willing to rent. or if you've saved enough to have the equivalent cost purchasing.

Never really thought of professional people as middle class, especially architects, lawyers, accountants. Teachers , lawyers & plumbers would be more of what I'd expect. When I think middle class I'm thinking semi-skilled.

correction: i meant to say teachers & plumbers would be middle class. Lawyers are professionals.

what is your profession?

so...riversider, can you speak for yourself?

of COURSE i can fix my own toilet seat. i just learned that i dont HAVE to. you are so thick.

how dumb is it to pay for things when you aren't obligated to do so? do you volunteer to pay for extra things? are you THAT stupid? your grammar is OK (although i've noticed a few mistakes but i'm not the type to mention those), but your general logic skills seem very weak. maybe some tutoring?

No feedy the needy.

done.

you're right...as always.

"the point is that being in the 'upper middle' is suppose to mean comfortable living situations and no money issues. At least that's my definition. Perhaps, the upper middle class here is really just middle class and that you have to be making a million a year to be called 'upper' middle class."

Your definition is wrong.

"Middle Class" is not a lifestyle or state of mind -- it's where your household income falls on a continuum, as defined by the Department of Labor and Census Bureau.

In America (that includes New York), "MIddle Class" is a household income of $30,000 to $55,000. "Upper Middle Class" is $55,000 to $92,000.

Households making above $92,000 are in the economic top 20% of the nation -- the UPPER Class. There's nothing "middle" about being in the top fifth.

What you do with that $92,000+ does not change your "upper class" status, regardless of whether you choose to live in Houston and live in a 5,000 square foot McMansion with five cars, or whether you choose to live in Manhattan in a comparatively cramped 2-bedroom apartment. Just because you don't "feel" as affluent as the Texan doesn't make you "middle class" -- it just means you've chosen to live in the most expensive city in America, and your housing dollar simply does not go as far.

Sunday - do you have 2 children (1 boy and 1 girl) and are you looking for a rental where they will each have their own space/privacy?

BTW - i have NO idea what constitutes manhattan's middle or upper middle class. my guess is our single income lawyer salary makes us very middle class here and we're swinging a 3 br rental.

uwsmom, i think a large portion of whether or not you feel comfortable depends on how large the student loan burden is and whether or not you had/have savings before you have kids. and whether or not your kids can go to public school.

"BTW - i have NO idea what constitutes manhattan's middle or upper middle class."

See above.

The American middle class (including Manhattan) has a household income of $30K to $50K.

The American upper middle class (including Manhattan) has a household income of $50K to $92K.

Now you know.

Matt, 'middle class' is actually defined differently by different people. It can refer for income, profession, financial comfort/state of mind, etc... You are free to disagree with MY definition which is focused on financial comfort given a certain family size/mix.

In NYC, the household income definition of 'middle class' is not 30K to 55K. I can't remember the link, but I believe it's something like 75K to 135K.

"i think a large portion of whether or not you feel comfortable depends on how large the student loan burden is and whether or not you had/have savings before you have kids. and whether or not your kids can go to public school."

And, of course, whether you're living within your means.

All kids CAN go to public school. It's parents who choose not to send them to public school who, for one reason or another, say they "can't" go to public school.

matt, for the 100th time you're wrong. wrong. wrong. wrong.

"Matt, 'middle class' is actually defined differently by different people."

That may be true, but the only correct definition is the one that I set forth, as defined by the government.

Aboutready, I know you like to THINK that you're "middle class", but you're not.

You're upper class. Embrace it.

matt, i have posted at least THREE times information from the gov't that says that there is no definition of middle class. but you refuse to read, or admit, it.

matt, i know that i am not middle class at this point. but i was "upper middle class" with less than "upper middle class lifestyle" for many years in the past decade.

Posted on another thread. Typical Middle Class professions are teachers, plumbers & Electricians. Lawyers, Accountants Engineers , Doctors & Architects are not middle class. Have to agree with Matt on this one.

what is your profession?

uwsmom, I'm not in that situation right now. Just thought the topic is interesting. Your comment and definition for example is interesting.

everything feels (one might argue "is") skewed in manhattan. just my observation.

sunday - i have no idea what type of information you're looking for. sorry :(

Aboutready, I'm not sure where you got that information, but it's incorrect.

The fact of the matter is, when you put the entire population on a continuum, there's a swell in the middle that falls squarely in the $30-50K range. THAT is what defines "middle class".

actually, good question. RS, what is your profession? you're so quick to opine. why not share?

jimstreeteasy, are you paying attention?

There's nothing romantic about being one class or the other, nor is there shame. I'm sure every parent wants his child to do better than he/she. It is true that living in Manhattan is quite expensive. That said,what is the attraction to being called middle class?

ah, i'm slow. sunday - just saw your last comment. it is interesting...

aboutready is a Yale graduate with plenty of time on her hands, don't you think she can respond, appropriately, herself?

matt, the info that i continually post and you don't read? the stuff from the gov't?

oh well. uwsmom, how's the baby? how are you doing?

"what is the attraction to being called middle class?"

It's an interesting phenomenon among New York liberals who, in their ernest desire to be "of the people" and in touch with the downtrodden, see being "upper class" as something that's shameful and ... Republican.

ar - she's fab. we're fab. everyone is doing great. thanks!
ok, i'm exhausted and should be sleeping, but.... :)

as if you've moved on, carefree

as long as everyone's fab. we should have a lunch or afternoon snack sometime, including babies, children, whatever.

Leave the kids with the nanny, please.

matt, who asked you?

what time and where?

"matt, would you like to come to lunch? with women with children?"

Sure, why not.

I also wonder to what extend this impact people's decision on having more than one kid, or any kids for that matter. I know finance is always a consideration, but to what extend. i.e. Does it stop people from having 1 or 2 more than they would have otherwise wanted if finance wasn't an issue. Do you want one more if you can afford it?

In the UK people always know what class they are. You can have a working class millionaire, and members of the upper class can have no money. The US understanding of class is based on money, which is nothing to do with class but with how rich a person is. As they say, money is temporary, class is permanant.

About !..so many things going on in this thread, not sure what I was supposed to respond to when you asked if I was paying attention. I know hfs needs his two big orange suppositories everyday, and more, but geez nothing seems to work, and big pharma r/d budgets are only so big....and as to the exasperating posters (to me it's matt, maybe to others rs), such is life.

Moving on..This class thing is complex. Having lived and worked in latin america, western europe, and eastern europe, I personally think the USA is by far the least class-conscious country, where on the job, at your desk, you are judged by your merits (mostly), and people just don't sit around talking about your family all that much. Of course there are exceptions, but in other countries I have experienced it is more likely that you are looked at based on your background. Thinking purely within the US, to me it seems like the vast majority are roughly middle class in a social sense with a wide spectrum of income/wealth, and it is pointless to try to draw fine lines. Based on wealth or family background there are what I would call upper middle class -- in nyc the rich types, in middle-america the country club types -- but they don't occupy a society position comparable to what happens in more class-conscious countries.

Good post. I have to agree.
People here don't focus on "what class" they are, though throwing out being , parents of or married to a Doctor or Lawyer has some cache. Outside of that I don't think anyone really cares. Although being successful always rates higher than not being successful in any profession.

jim: "...I personally think the USA is by far the least class-conscious country, where on the job, at your desk, you are judged by your merits (mostly)..."

That's probably one of the many reasons why so many people love this country, especially immigrants.

Matt - aren't you following along? The middle class can't afford nannies!

AR - that would be so lovely, although to be honest, i'm still taking baby steps with these two. hubby and i haven't even attempted to take the duo out to eat yet. my kitchen is getting LOTS of use! Hoping to have a little help sometime soon, then perhaps i could have a real life grown-ups only encounter :)

Sunday - where did you find that figure (NYC middle class income range)?

Sunday - i can imagine that finances may actually impact the number of offspring more with NYC folks than in other parts of the country (where life is more affordable and schools, and everything else, is simpler). although it's interesting to ponder whether people would actually restrict the number of children they desire to stay in manhattan vs. having the children and living elsewhere.

I think it's strange that more affluent folk often worry about affording more kids, whereas people far less affluent have no qualms having 3 or more. Carry on.

nyc10023- there are people who "believe" that their financial situation will work itself out. and there are others that just don't care. maybe the affluent are less financially delusional.

I haven't seen a double-wide in Fway yet :) keeping an eye out for you. Good luck.

There is not just one definition of what constitutes the middle-class, sorry Matt. People have written entire books trying to define the concept, tying it to income, occupation, education, social status, etc. Because the US myth is so strongly associated with a classless society, most everyone would revendicate the label, whether their income is $25,000 or $250,000 a year.
I don't think you can credibly shut down others by giving a range of income and say "that's it! I'm right" three times.
My favorite definition of what constitutes the middle-class is about the necessity of work: if you can afford to pay for all your basic needs, but you have to work, you're middle-class. If you can do that through capital gains, you're upper class. If you need welfare, you're poor.

Access to a nanny has never been part of that definition to the best of my knowledge :)

Matt, will you please post a link to a Federal Govt. document that defines "middle class" (non "middle income", which is not the same thing)?

“A moderately honest man with a moderately faithful wife, moderate drinkers both, in a moderately healthy house : that is the true middle-class unit.”

-- George Bernard Shaw

Never mind, Matt, I found it. Please memorize this definition of middle class, from the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS):

http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/faq.shtml#definition

.

"Never really thought of professional people as middle class, especially architects, lawyers, accountants. Teachers , lawyers & plumbers would be more of what I'd expect."

What if i told you there are plumbers making more than archietects, lawyers, and accountants? Skill means nothing in determining class. It's the income that matters. A union plumber is going to beat any junior accountant any day of the week.

Same thing with electricians. Many registered electricians in this city are well into the six figures.

But by the time you're a fully registered electrician (or certified (?) plumber), most often you are also an independent business owner, much like the lawyer or accountant who has their own practice.

One can be a very successful electrician and an unsuccessful lawyer. I'd still go with the former being more of a middle class profession.

Actually, in this city, if you're a fully registered and licensed electrician, it's hard NOT to make at least $80,000 in this city.

And if that fully registered and licensed electrician is educated and has reality-based planning for the future, he might even attain middle-class status.

10023 - aw schucks! i was just there! but alas, i am a master of disguise (single + carrier today ;). but keep an eye out. i would be delighted to be outed.

Uwsmom, just not resorting to freshdirect during the dog days of winter gets you major points. While taking the two out for dinner with the hubby might be a notable accomplishment, it might not be the most relaxing event.

Not haute cuisine, but Citrus, Landmarc & City Grill are good for eating with multiple kids. Yay booths. Go at 5...

I just missed you at Fway, I was there approx. the same time, but I don't linger - in and out in 15 mins.

"Landmarc & City Grill are good for eating with multiple kids. Yay booths. "

Love Landmarc's booths, and the general roominess of the restaurant.

Don't forget to ask about the cotton candy!

why can't i place Landmarc? we had many brunches at Citrus w/ #1 (hubby likes the steak and eggs)

ar - there is just no way i can stay in the house all day with a toddler. i have to keep her busy, so while i'm out, i might as well be prodcutive :)

uwsmom, apparently I got the NYC middle class household income range ($75-$135K) from the following article:

http://www.drummajorinstitute.org/library/report.php?ID=44

I'm not saying THAT is the official number. The range is probably debatable. I just thought Matt's statement about 30k-50k being middle class for NYC is way off.

"why can't i place Landmarc? "

Third floor Time Warner building at Columbus Circle.

landmarc is a great option. noisy, but just so that you won't necessarily bother the neighboring diners to death. a better houstons (now hillstone, how odd is that?).

btw, if you're ever downtown, blue smoke has some things that were designed by danny meyer's daughter. a pig cookie to decorate with sprinkles and then is baked and returned. mac and cheese on the menu. etc.

that would be a great thread. good places for kids. and they wouldn't always be the obvious choices. at all.

Thanks AR! I would never have thought of it as kid-friendly, but now I have to try.

This is how I get downtown via subway (all elevator) if I don't want to bump stroller up and down - take subway from 72nd St 1,2,3 station to 34th Penn. Exit and pay another fare at 34th & Bway (N,R) - the next elevator exit at Union Sq. Hold your nose.

All depends on the temperament of the kids. My one kid who is easily amused & well-behaved at restaurants, I've taken everywhere - all kinds of places downtown, and even Bubby's (are they still open?) in both Tribeca and Billyburg.