Poor bankers only getting $300k in bonus. Does anyone know what is the average salary of a serviceperson killed in iraq/afghan?

Less than 2 years in the military is $18k per year. Of course the pay is higher once you factor in the free housing, food, medical care, schooling, etc.

So a serviceperson would have to work 20 yrs of their lives to equate to 1 yr banker bonus plus salary? You see where I'm going with this. Maybe the part of society that allows us to allocate capital has gotten way too big for it's thong.

One other thing, combat wages pay no income tax, so truly not apples to apples. ;) but I do recollect the stupid dinner/ car stipend for working past 8 pm. Flmao. Maybe that's q banker's version of 'combat'.

Thes apples to vegetable comparisons really clarify the issue

kinda sucks. If they could get that avg up to $500k (in cash), it would be better. That way each NYC based employee would be contributing about $20k to the city and $45k to the state. We certainly could use it. Not to mention the $150k to Pelosi and her boy Obama.

patient, you updated! happy new year.

how about actors and athletes... how come nobody complains about them??

juliag,

probably because the actors and athletes didn't almost take down the entire economic system via over leveraging and excessive risk.

no the losers who foreclosed on their investments caused the system to implode

maybe not, but they sure have convinced the majority of the economically disadvantaged that it is more important to play hoops than to go to school.

"probably because the actors and athletes didn't almost take down the entire economic system via over leveraging and excessive risk."

But of course you KNOW that the vast majority of people on Wall Street do work that has zero to do with the mortgage melt-down, CDOs, CLOs, etc, etc.

what about fannie and fredie dodd and frank should be in prison

Whether you guys like it or not. The Securitized market contributes a great deal of funding. Properly done it's a good thing.

"what about fannie and fredie dodd and frank should be in prison"

they are in their own prison, Congress

juliag Agree about Dodd & Frank.

they should be in gitmo

"But of course you KNOW that the vast majority of people on Wall Street do work that has zero to do with the mortgage melt-down, CDOs, CLOs, etc, etc."

Yes, they work in other risky areas, just not the one that happened to explode this year. The majority of profit is from principal trading, period. They had no problem cashing the bonus checks PAID FOR by that activity.

I remember the AIG whiner guy said something like "if the house blows up because of the plumber, do you not pay the electrician".

To which I reply, well, if the two decide to go into business for their own self interest, YES. There are pros and cons to being at a company and sharing risks.

If you don't want to be responsible for another trading desk's risks... DON'T JOIN THE SAME COMPANY.

the closer the firms are to the government the more corrupt they are

julialg...copycat

i am the original

haha i was waiting for this! i keep thinking julia is posting but it's julialg

No, julialg, you're number 1077066 ... julia is 1003949.
You're a julia-come-lately.

i am the original thinker...

Re: what about fannie and fredie dodd and frank should be in prison

yeah it was just those CRA loans that caused the crisis. the myth endures

anything the government touches turns to shit

Now wait just one moment

Pretty much any healthy over 18 individual in this country regardless of citizenship can join the military, get trained and, subsequently get shot at in a third world nation.

Investment Banker is not such an easy job to get your hands on. Have to go to the right schools, perform well there, make connections, do internships and look the part. Then you might get a crack at the job where you will met with tireless back breaking mind numbing reading and computer work for 12 hours a day for your first 5 years. Then assuming you are an expert politician and a work dog extraordinaire then and only then do you advance to the minor money round. Don't kid yourselves, few have the brains or perseverance to even take a crack at the job. For the lucky few you get a coveted seat with one of the big firms where you and your super smart hard working brethren scheme together to rip-off just about anything that's not nailed down. From every investor to the federal government you scheme endless hours to redistribute the wealth to line your pockets and the pockets of the partners of your firm.

How you can compare this task to getting shot at in Iraq boggles my mind.
Any idiot can get shot...only a genius can score a seat amongst the greatest criminal minds in the universe.

Nice nice p10!!!!! Woot.

Julia is original. But me likes new Julia too. Btw yeah crazy how the govt stopped pcbs from being dumped into the Hudson. WTF were they thinking?

Oh yeah WTF r they doing taking my liberty to smoke in front of the pre-k school. Every child needs nicotine bf circle time.

Don't get me started on vaccinations. Polio has rightz too.

WTF with all these curb cuts and elevators for handicaps. What a waste of the developer's monies

Damn national security too. Id like to see the reds come over palin's watch.

"you might get a crack at the job where you will met with tireless back breaking mind numbing reading and computer work for 12 hours a day for your first 5 years"

And start at $100k and be at $500k at the end of the 5 years. Really doesn't sound lie much of a problem.

"Don't kid yourselves, few have the brains or perseverance to even take a crack at the job. "

Don't kid yourself that its a brain piece. The smartest kids *don't* go into banking... its actually the second and third tier within the ivies. The pretty smart but not so smart, who are willing to just put in the hours, are the folks who do well in banking.

Shall I go on like Celine?

Falco. But the bankers do dress well. Shouldn't that count for something?

"Shall I go on like Celine?"

... you shall.

... and you should.

... and that, yes.

you have to 'look the part'.

say what you will about bankers...it's a brainy group. Where do you think the grey matter is going? Education? Medicine? Science?
Welcome to the 'GREEN' Generation....interested in generating GREEN in their pockets regardless of the consequences.

w67,
I don't know about Celine but I wouldn't mind seeing a picture of you in J-LO's New Year's eve body suit.

400k for a servicemember killed in iraq/afghan.

the same idiots that send our military over seas are the same idiots that forced the banks to lend to people who could never pay back.... the government

Mutom, is that death pay out? Interesting. ' better off dead'..... Or at least 1yr banker salary.

Yes I concur WTF was j Lo thinking?

"say what you will about bankers...it's a brainy group. Where do you think the grey matter is going? Education? Medicine? Science?"

well, of the finance-focused, almost anyone who could went hedge.
But the smartest kids went, yes, medicine. Or law school. Or consulting (mckinsey kids will take down any analyst class)

The bulge bracket was more likely to take the hocker player with ok grades... or the attractive girl... than the smartest guy.

Also, don't forget... the senior bankers are more likely to come from the MBA pool. Which is definitely not the smartest to begin with (Harvard undergrad kids are MUCH smarter than the mba pool, many of whom were ok students with good work experience). And even among them, it was pretty routine for the middle pool to do banking, not the top...

w67,

Its their SGLI - servicemembers group life insurance which is paid to their beneficiarie(s) who have too be over the age of 18.

That's inurance so not true wage to wage comp.

Heres a little moral dilemma. Does the govt pay low wages and then ups the insurance to $1mm? That's like the bankers saying low base but huge bonus. But if it goes tits up, the taxpayer pays. Hmmmm

Totally agree with Julialg- pretty much 100% the govts fault with their idiotic policies that lent money to anything that had a pulse. Sure you make $40k a year why shouldnt you buy a house that costs $600k that you surely cant pay back!!

And what about the RE brokers that kept pumping it up- NAR, etc, and every time you'd go to an open house the brokers would tell you definitively what a great investment RE was. Forget that forget that if it isnt it should be illegal for them to give investment advice- where's their NASD licenses? Equity analysts have MBAs, CFAs and 4 NASD licenses and even then they can only say "We believe this may happen", but Joe Shmo broker with no college degree and one RE licensure exam is fine to say THE MARKET WILL GO UP with no caveat.

Wall Street only took the risk because the govt basically said to by making credit so damn easy when it never should have been due to the govt regulation.

Wall Streeters work 100 hours a week under tremendous pressure, they deserve $300k bonus- more so than Cameron Diaz who shows up for 10 hours and gets $18M for Shrek or Mr. Baseball Player who hits a ball and gets $40M a year.

Maybe, but if the $18M falls thru I'd pay Cameron $300k to put her up in a studio and keep her for my "needs".

All this would be fixed if there were a draft for able-bodied persons 18 and above, male and female with no college exceptions.

> Wall Streeters work 100 hours a week under tremendous pressure

Uh, no. Most of that time is waiting around... primarily facetime.

> more so than Cameron Diaz who shows up for 10 hours and gets $18M for Shrek
And also has to work out like a motherf*cker and put in appearances and all that stuff. And 10 hours? You're kidding. Show up at 5am for make up calls, and the shoots go late.

Much, much easier to sit your fat ass at a desk and wait around most of the day occasionally touching your ebitda model or calling to check the name of the second vp listed in the deal book.

> or Mr. Baseball Player who hits a ball and gets $40M a year.

well, NO baseball player makes $40 mil a year salary. Lets get that straight. But at least those guys have on in a million (really one in 10 mil or 100 mil) talent.

Compare that to the top 100 hedge guys who ALL make more than that!

sorry, there is NO way you can logically say bankers aren't overpaid.

They're glorified middle managers!

not to mention... the avg. pro football career is 3 years. I think I remember baseball being 5.

No comparison. Given work effort and their actual ability relative to the population, bankers are waaaaaay overpaid. Many of the best bankers... simply don't go into banking!

> Wall Streeters work 100 hours a week under tremendous pressure

Uh, no. Most of that time is waiting around... primarily facetime.

- - Uh, yes I did it- I was in equity research for a number of years and this is what it was- no facetime or downtime.

> more so than Cameron Diaz who shows up for 10 hours and gets $18M for Shrek
And also has to work out like a motherf*cker and put in appearances and all that stuff. And 10 hours? You're kidding. Show up at 5am for make up calls, and the shoots go late.

Much, much easier to sit your fat ass at a desk and wait around most of the day occasionally touching your ebitda model or calling to check the name of the second vp listed in the deal book.

--I'm sorry but I'll take working out anyday over trying to finish my earnings model and note until 3am and then waking up at 6 then getting on the morning call.

--Being beautiful is not something thats such an achievement. And I dont really think it matters what she looks like when she's just USING HER VOICE IN SHREK.

> or Mr. Baseball Player who hits a ball and gets $40M a year.

well, NO baseball player makes $40 mil a year salary. Lets get that straight. But at least those guys have on in a million (really one in 10 mil or 100 mil) talent.

Compare that to the top 100 hedge guys who ALL make more than that!

--oh what a super, duper talent it is to hit a freaking ball. Trust me its more stressful to use your brain and thats what people should get paid big $$$ for.

sorry, there is NO way you can logically say bankers aren't overpaid.

They're glorified middle managers!

Oh and yes I can say that bankers are NOT overpaid. Because they arent.

How are bankers not overpaid? Did you know that most bankers make more than the average doctor? Don't you think something is wrong with that?? Medical school is a thousand times more difficult and expensive than busines school.

Nobody ever said medical school is difficult, you can't jump to that conclusion. The top students at any university would usually succeed in any post grad pursuit.

Interesting that others see that somewhereelse has no clue of what he talks about.

but he has the giant inflatable rat and bullhorn going for him!

Oh I'm sorry...but with the true and truly tragic exception of 9/1l how many investment bankers ever had to put their lives at risk? How many people who were in Haiti to help the people there solve the provlems of poverty, hunger, health care etc are now dead or missing? Want to bet they were making a shit load less than an investment banker? Probably the whole group together was making less than an investment banker. Work 100 hours a week under pressure? How about Smoke Jumpers who jump out of airplanes into forest fires? I once dated a EMS paramedic who remarked that I had a "high pressure job".

I hope that no one who thinks Wall Street, or Madison Avenue for that matter, defines pressure ever has to deal with the real thing. The irony is almost every one who does makes so much less than an investment banker...or a creative director.

julialg sounds smarter than me so thanks for the copycat..

I have several family members who work in the medical field including 2 paramedics.

What they do is very noble and I admire those in the medical field.

I dont really see what 9/11 or the Haitian earthquake has to do with investment bankers making money- which btw most wall streeters i would say are probably donating a lot $(collectively) to help the rescue efforts.

But my paramedic brother in law (who also happened to previously serve 10 years in the army), knows that working on wall street is way more pressure than his job - he doesnt have a blackberry go off on sunday night at 9pm and then have logon or go into work for the rest of the night- he finishes work goes home and doesnt have to do anything for work again until his next shift. He gets to go on vacation and actually go on vacation.

"Yes, they work in other risky areas, just not the one that happened to explode this year. The majority of profit is from principal trading, period. They had no problem cashing the bonus checks PAID FOR by that activity."

At Goldman, yes, most profits are from TRADING but not all from prop trading. But at other firms? hardly. In fact, if you work at jefferies, Lazard or Greenhill - or in asset management at any of these firms (including goldman) you had nothing whatsoever to do with what you are referring to. Many M&A shops dont even TRADE at all.

Juliag you are the original piece of shit. What brought down the system is levering bad loans 40 to 1. Who's fault is it when the 'experts' bet the farm on bad risk lendees...the lenders, not the ignorant lendees you moron.

The government should have beeen smart enough to force zero bonuses on firms who needed TARP funds. Soros has it right. Risky trading operations should not exist in entities deemed too big to fail.

"If you don't want to be responsible for another trading desk's risks... DON'T JOIN THE SAME COMPANY."

Conversely, if you want to always be paid out on your own productivity, without any influence from the banks overall profits (or losses), then start your own firm.

"Or consulting (mckinsey kids will take down any analyst class)"

What does 'smart' mean? As they say, if you're so smart, why arent you rich? The smartest trade for SAC or Millenium or for themselves. Banking is for second tier automatons willing to put in the hours.

Somewhereelse, you speak with such authority on Harvard undergrad and the MBA circuit....do you have experience at a top undergrad or business school?

5thGen, there are plenty of people tied to their beepers, blackberries, who make nowhere near what bankers make and have very high stress levels. and quite likely more education and debt levels.

the question isn't whether bankers should make a good living. they made good livings in years past. many of them bought on park avenue in the 1980s. and in the 1990s. they did just fine. the question is whether the relentless preferential treatment by the gov't to ensure that they received an ever larger proportion of the economic pie was justified. and then, when it clearly wasn't, whether they deserved to be handheld out this mess when average americans were going down the toilet.

stress? how about a family without income for two years? losing the home?

Juia, juliag is an idiot and you are great.

What you are forgetting about finance vs. medical school is finance is soulless. There is a price to be paid for fulfillment...like teachers.

Bankers should get paid every bit they can get...like everyone else....until the government had to step in to guarantee the survival of these firms...and the government should have seen to everyone getting zeroed bonus wise until that money was payed back to the taxpayers. High risk/ high reward business....it should not be high reward / high reward. If you want to get paid 100% on performance, start your own firm. If you want to exist at a too big to fail bank then you risk getting zeroed when the mortgage banked department bankrupts the firm.

"the question isn't whether bankers should make a good living. they made good livings in years past. many of them bought on park avenue in the 1980s. and in the 1990s. they did just fine. the question is whether the relentless preferential treatment by the gov't to ensure that they received an ever larger proportion of the economic pie was justified. and then, when it clearly wasn't, whether they deserved to be handheld out this mess when average americans were going down the toilet."

This is true...There really isnt any reason why anyone at one of these firms at the center of the crisis should get any bonus for 2008 or 2009....all it is, is the flip side of their massive upside compensation in good years.

rhino you'd be amazed at how little fulfillment there is these days for young doctors. and teachers, that's a joke and a myth. many hate it.

They may hate it...but it cant be denied it has redeeming value. Frankly, I usually shit on such a debate as this. However, what makes it interesting today is that we bailed out this institutions. First off, firms should not be allowed to grow 'too big to fail'. But once they did, people have a right to be pissed that bailout money was recycled into bonuses. Good people should leave the too big to fail firms, go to better firms or start their own.

that's the thing, rhino. banking SHOULD have redeeming value. it's necessary. it doesn't have to be what it has become. financial people can make a good living without this crap. not as good, of course. but good. very good.

i'm not an angry person generally. but blankfein's face and commentary really irritates me.

mimi...thank you...after reading julialg's posts i tend to agree with you...

julia, i agree with mimi.

Shitcomm, you log into Streeteasy to see how many people you can get to dislike you...and you're great at it. Chances are you aren't a teacher or a doctor...

Aboutready, finance can never be that redeeming...All it is, is the brokering of money essentially. Its an honest living, except when its holding the taxpayers hostage...Can't ever compare to teaching or being a doctor. I am not sure what you mean that it has become. Someone earlier made the true observation that real estate securitization was a small part of any bank...

rhino, i think more highly of your field than you do? not surprising.

it's an honest living, and it often gets things done. in terms of social utility, i think doctors definitely win the game, but they are having obvious cost-benefit issues these days, particularly the younger ones. i don't know how wonderful you can feel when you are hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt and everyone is demonizing you almost as much as bankers.

teaching. it takes a saint for a top-notch teacher (unless independently wealthy or a second income in a well-off family) to feel that he or she is adequately compensated, compared to bankers, or anyone really.

securitization may have been a relatively small percentage of employee activities, but it was a very large percentage of profits. recently selling treasuries has been very profitable. borrow at zero. make money. thank you sir, may i have another.

Securitization was not a big part of the profits. And I think my profession is fine. No worse than any sales job just more profitable. No worse than being a lawyer.

Teaching must have redeeming value because people
keep choosing it despite the pay.

rhino, people also choose to be whores and cleaning people. the vast majority of careers, such as they may be, have redeeming value. we need people to do what they do.

they just don't have huge paychecks.

I think we are using the word redeeming differently.

I don't care what people get paid until taxpayers pay in. That's really it.

but rhino. taxpayers pay in in many ways. not just a bailout. if an industry is totally goosed just to goose an economy, the profits from that goosing are distributed to those goosing. if you see what i mean. and this economy has been excessively goosed for decades. 1998-99 comes to mind, as just a start.

ppl should stop whining about bankers being overpaid - enough with the (commy) govt propaganda!

how about RE agents - do you think they are less overpaid relative to the "value" they add in terms of effort, stress and brains ?

Aboutready, was that supposed to make sense or be funny? Not following. Yes excess money in the system benefits all, I guess.

The avg salary was $120K, only $350K in ibanking. The service point is irrelevant to SE-- nobody making $18K/yr is buying a coop in manhattan.... Well, not yet...

"No one joins banking to win a Nobel. The(y) do it to make money."

Yup.

"Think about that the next time you want to bitch about what we do or don't deserve....."

Agreed. I never understood why people sit around and bitch about what other people earn, have, do, etc. If you don't like something about yourself, change and stop bitching about it.

you don't have to be a banker to get $300K bonus...we need an extra tax on these guys too. let's tax our way to recovery!!!

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/16/nyregion/16bonuses.html

Instead of bitching about other people's bonuses, why not work on being the people who receive those type of bonuses. If it's too late for you, then get your children into it. This is America, that's how it works and that's why it's so great.

sjmith, I think Bloomberg's advisors deserve every penny in salary and bonuses that were paid to them. Bloomberg is successful because he recognize the value they provided him and compensated them properly.

Bitching about bonuses is stupid...except when the money has been recycled from taxpayers. If you need help understanding that, let me know.

Rhino: "except when the money has been recycled from taxpayers"

Go after the 'individuals' responsible, but not the entire industry. There are plenty of hardworking people in these banks who deserves every penny paid to them. Break the banks up, punish the company, but don't group all the employees together as if they're all responsible. Most of them are just worker bees who deserve their total compensation which includes a bonus.

As for 'recycling money' from taxpayers, how much money has the Federal government received from these banks and employees of these banks in the past 30 years???!!! How much more will they be collecting in the future? How much of the bonus being paid out do you think will end up becoming tax revenue? What about all the jobs and business who depend on that industry and their big payouts?

Again, for the record, I am not a banker or work for any company that received government bailout.

Part of working for a big bank is getting paid on the combination of personal and firm performance. If your firms is constructively bankrupt without government help, you should not get a bonus. If you dont like that arrangement, start a hedge fund or a boutique brokerage house. You just have the concept wrong.

rhino: "If you dont like that arrangement, start a hedge fund or a boutique brokerage house. You just have the concept wrong."

That is exactly what the bank and potentially the government should be afraid of! If all of these top performers in the successful businesses that compete globally (as in against companies from other countries) leave the bank to start their own business or join foreign banks, the tax revenue could flow out of this country all together. Many more people could lose their jobs. Small shops can make a lot of money and hire people as well, but they cannot compete in certain businesses at all.

I totally understand the concept of a bonus being tied to personal performance, team/group performance, and overall company performance. However, they must balance the need to keep the performers of the profitable business happy. Their pay must be competitive, else like you said, they will leave.

The government should want star performers at banks to start their own firms. Lots of people have made lots of money in lots of industries and paid taxes. I think you are dead wrong. There is no reason for the government to keep the people at these big shittily run banks paid with taxpayer dollars. Capitalism is for these shitty firms to lose their good people, by those good people leaving to start their own firms. Your foreign bank argument is really off point. By your own admission you dont work in finance. I dont find your point of view interesting or accurate so lets drop the debate. I dont know why you are assuming the resulting start ups will not be US companies paying US taxes. Honestly you've been fed the line of bullshit and you've digested it and made it your own.

rhino, why do you always assume that everyone else is an idiot and that you know it all?

What I said was: "I am not a banker or work for any company that received government bailout."

You are right, there is no point in you and I debating. A conversation is more interesting when there's respect between the parties.

You're not an idiot...at least not according to what you have written. You just have a lot of misconceptions about the finance industry and you are strangely comfortable with using taxpayer money to shield people in a high risk high reward industry from a bad year...because the right wing fed you a line of bullshit. 95% of the people at these shitty banks have nonwhere to go....and the 5% of stars should leave...that should be the price of shitty management decisions.

I seem to recall some rather scathing remarks about NYC cops and other public sector employees..... I don't recall any sympathy for them.

perhaps you have very selective memory.

When someone posted something about how they are overpaid here for example, I certainly made a comment.

perhaps you have very selective memory.

When someone posted something about how they are overpaid here for example, I certainly made a comment.

Positivecarry, nice rant. For the record, it's not the individuals bankers it's the system, but bf I get into that a coupla comments on the rant.

1) free market to abolish natural circuit brkers in finance, free mkt to lever up to untold leverage, free mkt to credit cds, free mkt to get into counterparty risk, free mkt to set compensation, free mkt to blk box 1 STD dev event, free mkt to go bnkrpt when 2 STD dev event occurs....... I don't think so.
2) I'm glad as your parent is dying and their greatest desire would be to have son/daughter at their bedside, you drop off a$ filled effigy of yourself on their bed, great!,
3) the doctors treating your parents, their wages are not free mkt, don't kid yourself,
4) universities and education by and large is and never was 'free 'mkt'' based on meritocracy. Bush jr went to Yale? Not free mk.
5) I used to be like you.... 'pay me' dude..... Somewhere along the line I gotz very very cynical. :).

Nice rant