Poor bankers only getting $300k in bonus. Does anyone know what is the average salary of a serviceperson killed in iraq/afghan?

"I used to be like you.... 'pay me' dude..... Somewhere along the line I gotz very very cynical. :). "

HA! How much did you put in the bank before you could AFFORD to be "cynical"?

Point well taken juicy.

I don't understand what you people have against bankers. If there weren’t so many investors searching for yield, the CDOs, SIV, CPs and other paper wouldn't exist or wouldn't have moved to such an unstainable level. Investors who have participated in mutual funds, wealth management, and hedge funds have all profited from the real estate boom. We all made money during the bull years. Now that the RE market had crashed, you guys start blaming the banks. Bankers may/may not be over paid but there are a lot of other professions that paid well too. Why isn’t anyone complaining about them? It all comes down to greed. If any of you are not greedy or want a better life for your children, you can make the above statements, but I doubt anyone on this forum that can say that. Since most of you are all looking for cheap apartments and wishing the real estate market crashes so that you can buy apts for cheap to make more money.

Now we can come to tax money that banks received. Sure, cheap funding has helped banks make a lot of money. However, most banks have paid the TARP money back to the government with interest. The government made money on there investments. If bankers don’t make money, I can tell you that NYC wouldn’t be the place it is currently. NY wouldn’t have enough tax income to support many programs. Why isn’t anyone complaining when bankers pay so much tax to support other programs that don’t benefit them directly or indirectly? Why isn't anyone complaining when the government mishandles all that tax money and spend it frivolously? Each bankers support about five NY workers, why isn’t anyone complaining about that?

I agree with positivecarry and w67th street.

Re-pro. Hmmmmmmmmm. Investor desire for yield? That's like blaming a cancer patient for taking a pill from a regulated pharma and vetted by th FDA, and who subsequently dies from taking the pill. Later it's discovered the pharma petitioned and changed the FDA rules regarding new drug tests. Does it make sense now why I am a smidge upset at the bankers bonus?

Rule was 1) natural breaks in financial players 2) a bank did credit analyis as did moodys and sp 3) fed kept a balance btwn savers/ spenders ( ie real rate above 0%) 4) saved/consumed based on income not bubble assets (first equity, then tech equity, then re, now commodities, soon to be currency) 5) bkrpts were natural order for insolvent cos., autos, banks, ppl.

Now I don't know how to teach my kids. What values shall I instill in them. 'just make sure you get in on the ground on the next bubble!' now go party.

67, It is a very odd comparison, cancer versus making money. Forget about teaching your kids, this society is crumbling around us, lack of culture. The good versus the bad and I think the bad/evil are winning. What is your profession?

Every time I see someone describing a society as lacking culture, I can't help but wonder if that person is a total snob or just have a very narrow definition of the word.

I'll just comment on the good/ bad ..... Yes America has somehow lost it's savings value and gone full tits on consumption and using debt to consume things they can no longer afford. But wouldn't want to live anywhere else. Culture...-shrug- it's what you make of it... But it's all here.

As to my profession... So far retail, delivery (beer), I banker, law intern, commer banker, workout/ asset recovery, father of two, commercial landlord, residential re flipper (when it made sense), sailor, try to be a good hubby and whatever I feel like fibbing on my resume. :)

My rant seems to have vanished. Interesting. Rhino can call someone a sack of crap on this thread and that stays, yet I talk about sacrificing family time to grow my business and that's deleted.

positivecarry, first they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak out

ah the irony of hiding this post:

gogocomm1
about 1 hour ago
positivecarry, first they came for the communists, and I did not speak out%u2014because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out%u2014because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out%u2014because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me%u2014and there was no one left to speak out

@Rhino "The government should want star performers at banks to start their own firms."

U nailed it. What the hell happened to capitalist markets? Not so open after all

"notice how somewhereelse/ny90210/aliceinwonderland/eddieshiltson flees the scene after his big fat rat deflates???"

notice how the more he gets proven clueless, the more he posts?

> 4) universities and education by and large is and never was 'free 'mkt'' based on meritocracy. Bush
> jr went to Yale? Not free mk.

You're using an example from half a century ago? Times have changed. The majority of folks who made it back then would not now, the stats go up every year, and its become incredibly difficult, and much more based on performance. There will be some exceptions (Brown, anyone), but pretending its daddy who got these folks in isn't accurate, and gets in the way of honest discussion.

ignore this person
report abuse
> Wall Streeters work 100 hours a week under tremendous pressure

> > Uh, no. Most of that time is waiting around... primarily facetime.

> - - Uh, yes I did it- I was in equity research for a number of years and this is what it was- no
> facetime or downtime.

Actually, sounds like you didn't do it. I did actual investment banking. If you think it wasn't primarily facetime, you need to talk to an actual banker. Investment research isn't investment banking.

> --I'm sorry but I'll take working out anyday over trying to finish my earnings model and note until
> 3am and then waking up at 6 then getting on the morning call.

I like how you're going with a fake comparison. You left out the part where you're on the shoot till 3 and then have to be there at 5 for makeup. THe workout you squeeze in during sleeping hours.

> --Being beautiful is not something thats such an achievement.

Neither is being smart. Or lucky. Point?

> And I dont really think it matters what she looks like when she's just USING HER VOICE IN SHREK.
But the recognizability of her voice sells the picture, and that comes from what she looks like, like it or not.

> or Mr. Baseball Player who hits a ball and gets $40M a year.

well, NO baseball player makes $40 mil a year salary. Lets get that straight. But at least those guys have on in a million (really one in 10 mil or 100 mil) talent.

Compare that to the top 100 hedge guys who ALL make more than that!

> --oh what a super, duper talent it is to hit a freaking ball.

Well, it takes less talent to be a banker. Far more people do it.

And nobody I know pays $1500 for box seats to watch a guy make a spreadsheet and sucker a client.

> Trust me its more stressful to use your brain and thats what people should get paid big $$$ for.

Sorry, I don't trust you... unless... are you Arod?

You have no idea how much stress it takes to be a top performer in professional athletics.

Rhino, you can disagree, but at least evaluate what the other side has to say instead just assuming that other person doesn't know anything or just the cool aide talking. Here's someone else who drew the same conclusion about what happens if US firms start breaking up into smaller entities.

"Treasury chief is concerned the proposed limits on big banks' trading and size could impact U.S. firms' global competitiveness."

http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKN2123718120100122?pageNumber=1

(Thanks Riversider for posting the above link.)

Sounds like all the logic they used to explain how Wall Street was too regulated... right BEFORE the crash.

Nice job, Chuck Schumer!

Swe. The whole California system is skewed so that certain minorities need a better score to get in. Was when I was applying. If you go further down, how many inner city kids can afford private lessons, kaplan prep, a good guidance counselor etc etc. Now one could argue higher education should 'correct' these ills by 'leveling' the field. Maybe...... But then not free mkt.

> Wall Streeters work 100 hours a week under tremendous pressure

> > Uh, no. Most of that time is waiting around... primarily facetime.

> - - Uh, yes I did it- I was in equity research for a number of years and this is what it was- no
> facetime or downtime.

Actually, sounds like you didn't do it. I did actual investment banking. If you think it wasn't primarily facetime, you need to talk to an actual banker. Investment research isn't investment banking.

> --I'm sorry but I'll take working out anyday over trying to finish my earnings model and note until
> 3am and then waking up at 6 then getting on the morning call.

I like how you're going with a fake comparison. You left out the part where you're on the shoot till 3 and then have to be there at 5 for makeup. THe workout you squeeze in during sleeping hours.

> --Being beautiful is not something thats such an achievement.

Neither is being smart. Or lucky. Point?

> And I dont really think it matters what she looks like when she's just USING HER VOICE IN SHREK.
But the recognizability of her voice sells the picture, and that comes from what she looks like, like it or not.

> or Mr. Baseball Player who hits a ball and gets $40M a year.

well, NO baseball player makes $40 mil a year salary. Lets get that straight. But at least those guys have on in a million (really one in 10 mil or 100 mil) talent.

Compare that to the top 100 hedge guys who ALL make more than that!

> --oh what a super, duper talent it is to hit a freaking ball.

Well, it takes less talent to be a banker. Far more people do it.

And nobody I know pays $1500 for box seats to watch a guy make a spreadsheet and sucker a client.

> Trust me its more stressful to use your brain and thats what people should get paid big $$$ for.

Sorry, I don't trust you... unless... are you Arod?

You have no idea how much stress it takes to be a top performer in professional athletics.

---Actually I did both but I worked at a boutique in the banking case so hours were much less only 60-70. So I used the research comparison instead since its still wall street and my hours were more.

I know plenty of bankers and thats what they do--100 hours weeks and yes its highly stressful.

If you honestly believe that being a stupid baseball player or actor is more stressful than banking or any wall street job and they deserve $20M a year or a movie for that but someone who works 100 hours a week with an MBA doesnt deserve $400k then youre thinking is completely messed up and there's no point in discussing this with you.

None of your arguments make sense- I can show up at a stupid camera shooting and read some lines or get on a baseball field and hit a ball, but I would HIGHLY doubt that any baseball player or hockey player or Cameron Diaz or pretty much any other actor could just come in and sit at my desk and build a model from scratch and write a research note or an offering memorandum. Actors and sports stars have tons of down time and vacation. When does a wall streeter even get to take a day or a week off. And the other proof that they dont work hard for the money is the way they party and spend it- completely carelessly. When you actually work for your money youre more careful with it.

And I dont believe you were in banking- touching up an EBITDA model?? Really, I've heard of LBO models, DCF models, etc, but maybe but there's no such thing as an EBITDA model- especially from someone who claims to have worked in banking.

"None of your arguments make sense- I can show up at a stupid camera shooting and read some lines or get on a baseball field and hit a ball"

Funny, nobody has offered you $20 million.. or even $20 to do it. So, clearly you don't fit the bill.

You can hit a major league curve ball? Really? Please say yes, please say yes....

rotlf

> I would HIGHLY doubt that any baseball player or hockey player or Cameron Diaz or pretty much any
> other actor could just come in and sit at my desk and build a model from scratch and write a
> research note or an offering memorandum

But 100,000 middle manager monkeys can.

Arod might not be able to balance a spoon on his nose either, but that doesn't make it a valuable skill.

Most of this planet would love to be Pujols, but can't. Its maybe a handful of people.

But a HUGE chunk of folks on this earth can make a spreadsheet. And if as many practiced it as they did baseball, it would probably be half the planet. And how many morons a year graduate law school? They can all put together docs you can't either.

Its not a valuable skill when its so easy to acquire.

> None of your arguments make sense

Coming from the guy who can be a major leaguer but apparently just doesn't want to.

lol.

Sorry but I'm not a guy.

And I'd gladly switch from working on Wall Street to being any sort of entertainer in an instant.

And I did play a sport for 15 years of my life and my team was NY state champions in the mid-90s- sports are great, but definitely not worth $20M/head per year.

"And I did play a sport for 15 years of my life and my team was NY state champions in the mid-90s"

So, you were a champion, and even still nobody offered you 20 bucks to play. Just demonstrates how much harder it is to get to the top of sports, where only the cream of the crop get paid, unlike wall street, where a lot of mediocres make millions.

"And I'd gladly switch from working on Wall Street to being any sort of entertainer in an instant."

Exactly... and nobody has offered. You're talented enough for wall street, and not for entertainment or sports.

Just proves the point, its a much harder cut. Wall Street is the easy one.

Not to mention, I don't remember it being the, uh, bankers, who kill themselves because of the stress (unless they got caught stealing). If you don't think fame is stressful, its only because you aren't famous. And there are a lot more wall streeters than $20 mil actors or baseball players. A LOT more...

SWE, 5thgener.... maybe the problem is the "media" companies and their stranglehold on $200/month cable bills from every couch potato in US. I'd have no problem w/ it except the public monies that go into stadium building and the lack of competition in the media world.. but it's slowly happening...

So in closing, I'd like to argue.... your beef is not btwn yourselves... but dig deeper into what causes such disparity in "wages." FYI, disney extended copyright laws with "your" gov't's help... if that didn't happen my 50K shirts with a mickey mouse stealing my kids piggybank would've make millions.... millions... hahahahahahahahahahaaaaaa

> I'd have no problem w/ it except the public monies that go into stadium building

Unlike the public monies that go into... uh... banking.
;-)

Fact is, people every day pay $100 a ticket for a game. Some $500. They say watching the game is worth their time. Or millions of us buy movie tickets to watch the folks. We vote with our dollars for their product.

Wall street, thats a whole different story.... where middle managers don't have to be talented to scam some money from the public... they just need to work for a connected firm.

"None of your arguments make sense- I can show up at a stupid camera shooting and read some lines or get on a baseball field and hit a ball"

Funny, nobody has offered you $20 million.. or even $20 to do it. So, clearly you don't fit the bill.
---Yeah noone did but I never tried- all I'm saying is that if someone came up to you and gave you a script and said read these lines anyone could read a few lines- assuming they are literate of course.

You can hit a major league curve ball? Really? Please say yes, please say yes....
---Well I never tried so I couldnt say either way. But I'm 100% sure whomever baseball player you idolize could definitely not build a model. I dont watch sports or any tv much (dont have cable and dont go to the movies as I dont have time and I wouldnt support in any way these idiots getting paid the kind of money for what they do (or dont do).)- But I've heard a few interviews and most of them cant put a sentence together.

rotlf

> I would HIGHLY doubt that any baseball player or hockey player or Cameron Diaz or pretty much any
> other actor could just come in and sit at my desk and build a model from scratch and write a
> research note or an offering memorandum

But 100,000 middle manager monkeys can.

---Oh really- I dont think so- we've hired and fired a lot of smart people at my company because they couldnt pull it off- people who went to Ivy league schools and had engineering degrees.

Arod might not be able to balance a spoon on his nose either, but that doesn't make it a valuable skill.

Most of this planet would love to be Pujols, but can't. Its maybe a handful of people.
--Sorry but whats Pujols??

But a HUGE chunk of folks on this earth can make a spreadsheet. And if as many practiced it as they did baseball, it would probably be half the planet. And how many morons a year graduate law school? They can all put together docs you can't either.

Its not a valuable skill when its so easy to acquire.

--I dont think its that easy. I think being an entertainer or sports player IS easy.

.. or be involved in the banking-fortune 500 kickback scheme (the ibanking/research/trading cozy relationship)

> I dont watch sports or any tv much

Ah, now its clear... you just don't know what you're talking about.

> I dont think its that easy. I think being an entertainer or sports player IS easy.

only because you don't seem to know much about either.

Again, a small percentage of the population tries to be bankers, many not particularly smart or skilled, and a huge chunk get to do it.

Many, Many, MANY more folks try to be movie starts or sports starts, and WAY fewer are successful.

Looks like you just don't know what the word "easy" means.

The thing that is harder to do (as evidenced by the fact that fewer can do is) is the HARDER thing.

you also seemed to ignore this part...

"Not to mention, I don't remember it being the, uh, bankers, who kill themselves because of the stress (unless they got caught stealing). If you don't think fame is stressful, its only because you aren't famous. And there are a lot more wall streeters than $20 mil actors or baseball players. A LOT more..."

> Well I never tried so I couldnt say either way

Except you did.

You never tried, yet you're trying to tell everyone its easy.

Funny.

> I worked at a boutique in the banking case so hours were much less only 60-70

60-70 sitting at a desk. Sounds so painful.

BTW, if you are this specialized talent in terms of research and analytics, how come you can't figure out how to properly quote someone in a newsgroup post?

btw, we also left out pain/injury. Baseball players play through sprains, pulls, often broken bones.
Football players have their bodies absolutely destroyed. Many linemen have their LIVES cut short by 10 or 20 years.

Have you seen Joe Namath's knees lately? Or counted the number of football players who died in their 40s? Or the ones who died in practice?

Yeah, I've heard of a lot of bankers crippling themselves falling out of their desk chairs... or having the deal toys fall on their heads.

;-)

"And I did play a sport for 15 years of my life and my team was NY state champions in the mid-90s"

So, you were a champion, and even still nobody offered you 20 bucks to play. Just demonstrates how much harder it is to get to the top of sports, where only the cream of the crop get paid, unlike wall street, where a lot of mediocres make millions.

---Actually I was offered scholarships to play. But I turned them down to go to a better school to get a better education. I dont think they pay much for women's sports anyway.

"And I'd gladly switch from working on Wall Street to being any sort of entertainer in an instant."

Exactly... and nobody has offered. You're talented enough for wall street, and not for entertainment or sports.

---Yes well I've never tried to be in entertainment so how do you know I'm not talented. And as for sports, like I said, how much do women really make in professional sports anyway?

Just proves the point, its a much harder cut. Wall Street is the easy one.

--Many more people want to go into sports and entertainment because its so easy to do.

Not to mention, I don't remember it being the, uh, bankers, who kill themselves because of the stress (unless they got caught stealing). If you don't think fame is stressful, its only because you aren't famous. And there are a lot more wall streeters than $20 mil actors or baseball players. A LOT more..

---Actually there was a Wells Fargo banker who dropped dead in his office from working to hard. And Im sure in 15-20 years when all those analysts, associates etc are older, their lives will be shorter than say any actor/actress because they worked 100 hours a week for years. It definitely takes a hard toll on your body.

I worked at a boutique in the banking case so hours were much less only 60-70

60-70 sitting at a desk. Sounds so painful.

---sorry but i didnt just sit at my desk - i worked for a living. unlike entertainers.

BTW, if you are this specialized talent in terms of research and analytics, how come you can't figure out how to properly quote someone in a newsgroup post?

--I dont see what I got wrong. And even if I did this is just a newsgroup as you said and quite frankly Im not putting in the same effort as when I do my job.

> Well I never tried so I couldnt say either way

Except you did.

---No- again I'm a woman and I never wanted to be a professional sports player. And I never tried to be an actress or comedian or whatever.

You never tried, yet you're trying to tell everyone its easy.

Funny.

--Funny. It is easy.

> Actually I was offered scholarships to play.

And, again, never went pro. Noone wanted to pay $20 to watch you play.

> Yes well I've never tried to be in entertainment so how do you know I'm not talented.

Because of how jealous you are of those who are.

> Many more people want to go into sports and entertainment because its so easy to do.

Thats nonsensical. Most fail, it obviously isn't easy. If it were easy, THEY WOULD BE DOING IT.
But most have to settle for what is easier to do, like Wall Street. Tons of failed athletes there. Not many failed bankers end up in sports... because if you can't even succeed on Wall Street, wow, you don't have much.

You logic is horrific, and basically circular.

Just goes to show that it doesn't take a whole lot to make it on wall street....
;-)

> ---Actually there was a Wells Fargo banker who dropped dead in his office from working to hard.

Yes, one once, YOU CRACKED THE CASE.

ROTFL.

When you get the proportion 10,000 or so that would equal sports/entertainment, let me know.

Until then, thanks for proving my point.

"Swe. The whole California system is skewed so that certain minorities need a better score to get in. Was when I was applying."

I believe they were forced by the courts to change that.. about 5 years ago. And the story was that UCLA and such went from like a big chunk asian to majority asian.

> If you go further down, how many inner city kids can afford private lessons, kaplan prep, a good
> guidance counselor etc etc. Now one could argue higher education should 'correct' these ills
> by 'leveling' the field. Maybe...... But then not free mkt.

You don't correct the ills by lowering the bar, you "correct" them by trying to give similar advantages to inner city kids. Stuyvesant high school had a program where minority kids who came near the cutoff could take a summer program and raise scored and get into Stuy. Awesome. Thats levelling the field. Letting the kids in without the program, thats not levelling the field, thats just lowering the bar.

Offer more programs and services to folks in need. I think thats good.

But saying "well, close enough" because you come from the zip code with more poor people in it... thats not level, thats quota.

> Funny. It is easy.

Yes, if you repeat yourself enough times, you make made up things true. You live in Neverland, apparently.

With every post, you only demonstrate how low the bar for Wall Street is...

;-)

And I love the "oh, its so easy, I could have done that, I just wanted to" jealousy. If you're so certain its easy, go do it.

You're like the 5 year old who can't ride a bike and says "I can, I just don't want too, its for babies".

Actually I was offered scholarships to play.

And, again, never went pro. Noone wanted to pay $20 to watch you play.

---HELLO? HOW MANY WOMEN PLAYERS GO PRO? AND GET PAID LIKE GUYS FOR IT???? WHY WOULD I WANT TO DO THAT?
And scholarships were worth about $100k for four years. More than $20.

> Yes well I've never tried to be in entertainment so how do you know I'm not talented.

Because of how jealous you are of those who are.

--Not jealous, think they are overpaid thats different. And they are not the only ones who I think are overpaid. Actually there's many. like public servants particularly NY state teachers. Architects and engineers are underpaid. I'm not jealous of public servants either.

> Many more people want to go into sports and entertainment because its so easy to do.

Thats nonsensical. Most fail, it obviously isn't easy. If it were easy, THEY WOULD BE DOING IT.
But most have to settle for what is easier to do, like Wall Street. Tons of failed athletes there. Not many failed bankers end up in sports... because if you can't even succeed on Wall Street, wow, you don't have much.

---Really- which failed professional players are now working as bankers?? A

You logic is horrific, and basically circular.
-No yours is. $20M to make a movie and hit a ball and its fair because ?? I think you havent given any sound argument for why and clearly its not.

Just goes to show that it doesn't take a whole lot to make it on wall street....
;-)

--Actually it does. Since you were too good for wall street what do you do besides defend a bunch over overpaid sports players?

> ---Actually there was a Wells Fargo banker who dropped dead in his office from working to hard.

Yes, one once, YOU CRACKED THE CASE.
-Thats the only one I know of. I also heard about a Lazard banker who fainted from exhaustion.
ROTFL.

When you get the proportion 10,000 or so that would equal sports/entertainment, let me know.

Until then, thanks for proving my point.

"I dont see what I got wrong. And even if I did this is just a newsgroup as you said and quite frankly Im not putting in the same effort as when I do my job."

You must be doing quite an awesome job spending all day on this newsgroup...
a job so hard you can do it with one eye watching streeteasy.
lol

Imagine if Pujols did that... he'd have a cracked skull. (probably from falling off his herman miller chair)

"I dont see what I got wrong. And even if I did this is just a newsgroup as you said and quite frankly Im not putting in the same effort as when I do my job."

You must be doing quite an awesome job spending all day on this newsgroup...
a job so hard you can do it with one eye watching streeteasy.
lol

--Its 3:30 on a friday and the markets going to close in 30 minutes. i just finished a week of earnings so this afternoon is a bit slower. but thanks for your concern. And what about you? Besides defending the overpaid, and underworked?

Imagine if Pujols did that... he'd have a cracked skull. (probably from falling off his herman miller chair)

I guess he must be a baseball player too?? And I'd say he could probably do that for his 6 months of off season time.

oh yeah, and the economic definition of "easy":

> a. Less in demand and therefore readily obtainable
> b. Plentiful

Wall Street wins again... 160k middle managers (even after cutting 40k).

Folks in the NBA, MLB, and NFL COMBINED (with a large chunk making UNDER a million)....
3k or so.

And, even as you said... with FAR more people trying to do the latter.

I guess Wall Street doesn't require even math anymore...

;-)

"HELLO? HOW MANY WOMEN PLAYERS GO PRO? AND GET PAID LIKE GUYS FOR IT???? WHY WOULD I WANT TO DO THAT? "

You're just proving the point. Its so easy that not one woman in history has been able to even PLAY in the NBA or MLB. So easy that it was impossible for you to do it.

Btw, what sport did you play.. badminton.

"Not jealous, think they are overpaid thats different. And they are not the only ones who I think are overpaid. Actually there's many. like public servants particularly NY state teachers."

I love it, a glorified middle manager making 10x a teacher's salary saying the teachers are overpaid.

My, my, you clearly have no idea of worth.

And you work in investment research? Sorry hun, but somebody needs to wake you up to the fact that that area of banking is a scam. You're not providing value, you're part of a kickback scheme.

Which is why its so easy... noone actually cares what you write.

> Really- which failed professional players are now working as bankers??

I can't name 'em all, its most of Wall Street. Half the guys who went bulge bracket my year were folks who played varsity sports and would have KILLED for a shot at the pros...

but it was too hard.

So they went to banking intead.

> > Just goes to show that it doesn't take a whole lot to make it on wall street....
> > ;-)
>
> --Actually it does

What a comeback! Are you pee wee herman?

> Since you were too good for wall street what do you do besides defend a bunch over overpaid sports
> players

Another space where I'm overpaid, just not as much as wall street (I make similar, but this requires more skill).

> > You logic is horrific, and basically circular.
> -No yours is.

Really, are you 12?

You're making a horrible case for there being ANY sort of a bar on Wall Street.

> $20M to make a movie and hit a ball and its fair because ?? I think you havent
> given any sound argument for why and clearly its not

OK, now I'm getting fairly sure that you don't have a good grasp of the english language. What do you think circular logic means?

Seriously. (and, I gave an actual NUMERICAL comparison. Which you just skipped). And the definitional comparison. That you don't understand them doesn't mean they aren't there.

I don't think you're particularly good with the reading comprehension. And the math missed you as well.

So tell me, what highly sought after skill do you think you have?

Really. I'm asking seriously.

Exactly what do you think you have a talent for that others don't? What is this talent you think you have?

> And I'd say he could probably do that for his 6 months of off season time.

Again, you clearly don't know what you're talking about. If you think players are on vacation in the off season, my, my my, you are just clueless.

I'm not sure where all your jealousy comes from.

Did you just find out your bonus, and its only 7x what a schoolteacher makes?

Poor you.

At least the teachers have to get a masters degree.

Seriously, what value do you bring to this earth that you think ENTITLES you to make 10x what a teacher works. What is this magical skill that is so hard to acquire. What feats of strength can you and you alone do?

somewhereelse really is dense. It's painful to try to read his comments.

You are comparing completely different skills. What is the point? However, if you are going to compare professional athletes, why are you only comparing the majors? You have to include all- Arena League, CBA, minor league baseball, everything. Do that and your arguments weakens. Only comparing the majors is like only looking at the executive committees of the banks and firms.

SWE, 5thgener.... maybe the problem is the "media" companies and their stranglehold on $200/month cable bills from every couch potato in US. I'd have no problem w/ it except the public monies that go into stadium building and the lack of competition in the media world.. but it's slowly happening...

So in closing, I'd like to argue.... your beef is not btwn yourselves... but dig deeper into what causes such disparity in "wages." FYI, disney extended copyright laws with "your" gov't's help... if that didn't happen my 50K shirts with a mickey mouse stealing my kids piggybank would've make millions.... millions... hahahahahahahahahahaaaaaa.

there is a school of economics that believes not that it's the person who makes the money, but the "position." So all we are really doing id competing for the "positions" for the payout. Like the argument if not Bill Gates... then Wong Nung... "chinese for bill gates....

No employee ever put a gun to an employer and say "pay me $x, or I will shoot you' and get away with it. The employer paid the employee $x because the employer believe in the value the employee bring to his/her organization. It does not matter whether it's because of the employee's talent/skills, brain, or looks. Employers will always try to pay the minimal they can get away with and the employees will always try to get the maximum employers are willing to pay. Arguing whether a banker, actor, or ball player deserves their pay is a waste of time. They are deserve it because someone is willing to pay it. If you don't like that the government is subsidizing the pay in anyway, then vote someone else in to change that.

> somewhereelse really is dense. It's painful to try to read his comments.

From you, thats a compliment. I know I'm a little above your 4th grade reading level.

;-)

> However, if you are going to compare professional athletes, why are you only comparing the majors?

Because I actually read the post I'm responding to. We're talking about overpaid. If you want to include the guys who make $20k in whether professional athletes are overpaid relative to bankers, they, hey, you're just helping my case.

But the original post was about baseball players making $40 million.

Your comments, relative to that, are nonsensical.

"You have to include all- Arena League, CBA, minor league baseball, everything. Do that and your arguments weakens."

Only if you don't understand what you're arguing.

> Only comparing the majors is like only looking at the executive committees of the banks and firms.

Thanks for helping my point... when the guys who are a couple years out of college make more than major leaguers, my point is strengthened. On Wall Street, you don't need to be top to make millions. You can be 2nd tier and a 2nd tier firm. Yet you can be a major leaguer, the absolute top of the top, top 500 in the world, and not make a million.

Funny, this time your lack of understanding actually strengthened my point.

Thanks.

"No employee ever put a gun to an employer and say "pay me $x, or I will shoot you' and get away with it."

Except a union.

> The employer paid the employee $x because the employer believe in the value the employee bring to
> his/her organization.

And the thieves split up the loot. Does that mean they all deserved it? Of course not.

The employer can afford to pay that because they got a handout. If you give my company a billion dollars, I'm also going to pay more.

Does that mean we're better tomorrow than today? Of course not, thats nonsensical.

Your assumption that the company is earning by creating value is a flawed one, and it renders the rest of the argument meaningless.

> Arguing whether a banker, actor, or ball player deserves their pay is a waste of time. They are
> deserve it because someone is willing to pay it. If you don't like that the government is
> subsidizing the pay in anyway, then vote someone else in to change that

This is where you are missing the point. An American pays to see a baseball game. Or a movie. Or for a waffle. Or a car. Yes, they are voting with their dollars, and the company provided value.

But, if your profit comes from taking government money and guarantees, and trading with it, and then keeping all of the profit, then you are getting BY FAR more than what value you actually contributed. The government is party to your profit.

Or, make it easier. If your firms blew up because you screwed it up, you deserve zero pay. You failed. Game over. You shouldn't get anything. Your venture was a failure. You brought no value, you lost value.

If the government steps in to pick up the pieces, you didn't just create value, YOU GOT YOUR ASS SAVED.

Pretending the profit is all yours is ludicrious.

If Wall Street earned its money from M&A fees, sure, great, keep it. Some company paid you, fine.

But given that principal trading has taken over AND the banks are playing with government money, its nonsensical to pretend the banks are the ones who created that value.

If only I had the time on my hands like Somewhere else to continue to counter argue his points which clearly have zero merit and make no sense to anyone on this board but him.

And on top of making no sense he's sexist. Nice.

And sorry teaching does not require a masters degree. Most people who work on wall street have one however.

And don't purport to assume how much you think I make.

And you clearly never worked on wall street if youre using terms like "middle managers" and "EBITDA models". sorry but if you want to appear credible you might want to use the correct terms.

somewhereelse, your lack of intelligence is transparent here. You prove the point that Ivy Leaguers generally are the products of wealthier families and are no more skilled than anyone else.
No wonder you couldn't make it in Wall Street. You were trying to argue that most bankers don't have as valuable skills as professional athletes, and your point of comparison was ARod and Pujols. Therefore, if you do not ignore all professional athletes, your argument weakens.

I guess the 5th grade is too much for you.

somewhereelse, your lack of intelligence is transparent here.

Couldnt agree with you more LICC. I cant believe he ever worked on Wall Street. His clear lack of knowledge as to what the job actually entails- or any other office job for that matter proves he never had one.

And I've never met or come across anyone else that doesnt think those entertainers and sports figures are overpaid. And I dont see anyone on this board agreeing with him on this.

And I happen to have about a dozen friends who are NYS teachers- most of them became teachers after they couldnt make it in the private sector- they get paid more, have a pension, finish at 2:30pm and get 13 weeks vacation per year. They will tell you so themselves.

5thGenNYer, I don't agree with somewhereelse, but I can't say I agree with you either. A good teacher' job isn't done at 2:30pm and they do have to get their master if they want to get paid properly. As for the 13 wk vacation, many of them have to get some summer work to make up for the lower pay.

As for ibankers, both you and somewhereelse don't tell the whole story. You described what junior bankers do while somewhereelse described what seniors bankers do. The daily life of an Analyst is totally different from that of an MD and so are their compensation.

5thGenNYer, I don't agree with somewhereelse, but I can't say I agree with you either. A good teacher' job isn't done at 2:30pm and they do have to get their master if they want to get paid properly. As for the 13 wk vacation, many of them have to get some summer work to make up for the lower pay.

==As I said Sunday, I have about a dozen friends who are NYS teachers- they are all home by 3pm, and none of them work in the summers. Only half have a masters. And they all make 75k+. Many in the private sector make less than that and work full days and dont have the summers to make up for extra money if they wanted. And my point more was that NYS teachers are overpaid. CT teachers and teachers in other states (I know one who is nearing retirement and makes about 55k) are more properly compensated.

As for ibankers, both you and somewhereelse don't tell the whole story. You described what junior bankers do while somewhereelse described what seniors bankers do. The daily life of an Analyst is totally different from that of an MD and so are their compensation

---Yes youre right- they do have different responsibilities. Where in any of his posts did somewhereelse describe what senior bankers do? He didnt he just lumped everyone together as "middle managers" - a term that doesnt exist in ibanking and then proceeded to mention EBITDA models- something that doesnt even exist. Clearly he has no clue what either jr or sr level bankers do. He just thinks anyone who works at an office does nothing all day which is totally false.

5thGenNYer, I just glanced through most of the posts from you two as it was a bit difficult to follow. somewhereelse did describe the 'face time' aspect of an MD's job, but again don't take it as my endorsement of the rest of his comments.

I have to strongly disagree with you in regard to NY teachers being overpaid. Their pays have gotten better in recent years, but I would definitely not consider them as being overpaid. Many teachers might be home early, but they have to spend time preparing lesson plans and grading work. Some work on after school programs with the kids as well. I had my share of bad teachers growing up here and many are simply babysitters who don't deserve half their pay, but I also had many excellent teachers who deserve every penny and then some.

Sunday- If Somewhereelse described MDs as doing face time he definitely has no clue what he's talking about. Sometimes analysts and maybe first year associates in certain firms could have so called face time while they wait for MDs to give them back the corrected work. MDs certainly dont put in any face time.

Most teachers I had growing up used the same lesson plans as the prior years - they didnt really have to update anything from their first few years of teaching. And some teachers just have to run exams through an scantron- that doesnt take very long. And most middle and high school teachers only actually teach about 3 hours a day- so they have their off periods where they arent teaching to grade papers and tweak lesson plans. And I wouldnt say that there are no good teachers who dont deserve to be well paid- I actually know one who is an absolutely outstanding teacher- he makes 100k and quite frankly given his passion for teaching and what he puts into it he deserves every deserves every penny he makes. I think teachers should be on a performance system- so the good ones that you had and that I mention here get paid what they deserve and the bad ones you mentioned get low pay or are fired.

I would support a pay for performance type of system for school teachers.

I was assuming he meant face time as in the MD flying all over the place for client meetings with the CEO, CFO, etc... and playing golf them...

somewherewelosttrackofEddieWilsonin10022 is a good Jewish boy from Brooklyn 5'7 with curly hair, whose mom worked for the Board of Ed. He was beat up in school and no teacher came to his rescue. So the combination of mom in a management role and no rescue has him angry at teachers.

somewherewelosttrackofEddieWilsonin10022 was a smart boy and went to Harvard. He then managed to get into a job in investment banking because investment banks just want smart hard workers in the entry-level years and mix them in the geeks with the blond chicks and the more personable jocks. He was mistreated as all analysts were, but managed to stay on as a third year analyst where he mentored younger analysts until they understood and just viewed him as a loser. He told a lot of bad jokes and was always good for complaining about the MDs. He worked directly with the VPs by his 2nd year and wanted to be promoted to associate and he saw all of these other guys coming out of business school who weren't as smart as him so he figured he should be promoted. But it didn't happen, because likeability and maturity are factors that count (draw your own conclusion based on his history of posts) and during certain periods the banks don't like to promote. So after 3 years he was out. And couldn't get a private equity job because of the same likeability and maturity factor and because he kept saying he didn't need to go to business school because he already knew what they taught.

Eddie Wilson is somewhereelse other than in nyc10022.

Sunday- playing golf usually occurs on the weekends and isnt considered facetime.

Neither is flying to meetings - thats actual work. Again MDs dont do facetime. So if Somewhereelse implied this he's wrong plain and simple.

5thGenNYer, the time the MD spent in meeting with the potential client's CEO/CFO or playing golf with them is not facetime? Do they wear masks like the other kind of MD's (dr)? Are we talking about the same thing? The MD's are the sales people. The Analysts and Associates generate the material/research used in the sales pitches.

Facetime is generally meaning time in the office you dont spend working but you have to be there.

I'm saying that MDs dont do this however at some firms analysts and some associates who have downtime sometimes its called facetime.

ok, I get it now. I gave somewhereelse too much credit because I misinterpreted what he wrote.