4th Ave Park Slope Condos

You should always use a buyer's broker. And yes, $1,000 seems like alot for new construction in that area. Does the building have a tax abatement? If so, I wouldn't go for it.

Fourth Avenue doesn't run through Park Slope.

The neighborhood is called "Gowanus".

I don't really understand the point of a buyer's broker if we've already found the apartment and there is no board approval. I mean, really - what do they do at this stage that we couldn't do ourselves? The building is tax abated for 15 years, so I'd imagine that when it kicks out of the abatement, we'd be paying another $1000 or so per month for taxes, which also seems high and not consistent with other non-luxury buildings in the area.

Thanks NYCMatt :) - I'm looking for help regardless of what the neighborhood is called.

$1,000/mo including abatement seems extremely high. Those costs are only going up. Look elsewhere.

Thanks REMom - I was thinking the same thing. Are there any buyers in this building on these message boards? Any insight into the common charges would be much appreciated and also comparisons vs. the other new construction on 4th.

There's been lots of discussion about the Argyle and other Fourth Ave condos -- you should search the discussion threads. There is a function in the upper right cornoer of this page where you can do that.

Also, newbie, the Fourth Ave condos are pretty controversial. NYCMatt is correct, they are technically not in the Slope and that would affect your resale value if you do go ahead and buy.

Thanks Graffiti - I did search and most of the other threads are from about 6 months back, so I was hoping to get some more updated info...

Oh em gee. It's amazing to me how this is necessary every few weeks.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/html/neigh_info/bk06_info.shtml
http://nymag.com/realestate/articles/neighborhoods/parkslope.htm
http://www.city-data.com/neighborhood/Park-Slope-Brooklyn-NY.html

4th Ave is definitely Park Slope StreeteasyNewbie according to every neighborhood boundary guide you'll find. It's the end of Park Slope, but so is Prospect Park West. I'm obviously not trying to compare properties on these streets but a border is a border, period.

Now the Argyle, many would argue, is on the Gowanus side of 4th Ave, although it sounds as though that's not really an issue for you. If you want advice from someone who actually lives in this neighborhood and not a speculator who just loves to put down any and everything 4th Ave related, I gotta say that this building is probably the worst investment of them all, well after the Elan and a few others further up north that aren't selling at all. The amenities are minimal and the common charges are oddly high (and yes may very well go up), the price per square foot and common charges are way higher than apartments that sold in buildings like the Novo and the Crest and those would be your comps so you'd be starting off in a much worse position than people living in those buildings when you are ready to sell (and those buildings are on the "right" side of dreaded 4th Ave which means a lot to certain people). Take a look at 500 4th Ave (again Gowanus side of 4th and even further south) to get an idea of what similar buildings offer amenity wise for less than what the Argyle is asking if you are interesting in buying in that area.

Although neighborhoods are not distinct political entities, the western boundary of Park Slope is most commonly recognized as being 4th Ave. So technically, since The Argyle is on the west side of the street, it is in Gowanus. There are plenty of threads about 4th Ave in general and The Argyle in particular on Brownstoner. I looked at this and other new developments on 4th Ave for the better part of a year. Some observations: 4th Ave is a busy, loud, commercial drag - a well known north/south alternative to The Gowanus. The subway (M,R) is not the best. It is a haul to the park. As for The Argyle - early closings were marred by poor construction revelations. Fairly high maintenance for "virtual" services. Lots of inventory around (The Elan, 500 4th) - watch for comp values. I would look closer to the park - "classic" Park Slope, better shops, quieter, more accessible transport, and closer to the Park, the Botanical gardens, museum, green market.

Oh and one last thing, being on the "right" side of 4th ave does actually count so far as school zoning and if you are looking at two bedrooms that should definitely matter to you (even if you don't have kids cause of resale value). The Argyle is not zoned for PS 321, and some parents would sell their souls to get their kids into that school, whereas the center and north slope new construction buildings on the other side of 4th Ave near the Argyle are. Something else to think about.

sjtmd-the Argyle is two blocks from the M, R AND the F, G. That's the best train access in Park Slope outside of the North Slope express trains.

Thanks everyone! Is there a school zone map that you could point me too? sjtmd - what did you ultimately decide on? Is the "right" side of 4th avenue only important from a school district standpoint? I got the feeling that only 500 4th has a good amount of inventory, however that building is the furthest from the 2,3 etc. We are also looking for a large outdoor space, which the Argyle seems to be able to offer.

StreeteasyNewbie - I actually live in the Argyle & can answer some of your questions, honestly, unlike most people on this site that just bash all properities unless its the place they live. Shoot me a message if you want to chat.

StreeteasyNewbie all of these buildings are far from the 2,3. If those are the trains you want to be near you need to be looking in the North Slope, Downtown BK or Prospect Heights. Look at the map on the building's streeteasy page, scroll and zoom in on the train stations to see what trains stop where in the neighborhood. There are also plenty of places in PS with decent outdoor space so you may want to look a little more before deciding on anything.

According to insideschools.org the PS321 zone extends up to 3rd Ave. on the narrow sliver of cross-streets that are covered. In terms of the philosophical discussion going on, yes, some advantages available in the nicest areas of Park Slope do extend to 4th ave and even further west (school zone, although that may change since PS321 is very overcrowded) but to anyone who has ever walked in the neighborhood there's a clear change (boutiques, cafes and posh restaurants replaced by Hispanic evangelical churches, mechanic shops and bodegas; brownstone replaced by vinyl siding) and the border is actually 5th ave. on the East-West axis. It becomes even more visible on 4th. On a side note: I personally would recommend a floor-through apartment in a brownstone rather than an apt. in a new development, because maintenance tends to be very low in brownstones (of course they are walk-ups, old, no doorman, etc) and they're probably going to keep their value better.

Trompiloco the Argyle is not zoned for PS321. I know everyone on these boards loves to obsess about east/west boundaries and 4th ave but there's also a north/south border and for PS321 it's Union on the north end and 5th street on the south. The argyle is on 7th street.

When you say "and the border is actually 5th ave. on the East-West axis" again, I don't get what you mean. What map has Park Slope ending at 5th ave? And as a native Nyer I don't mind a bodega here or there and don't necessarily have an aversion to living in a neighborhood with a "Hispanic evangelical church." It's NYC. But to each his own.

Without stepping across the "pc line" - 4th ave IS different. Tire shops. McDonalds. Staples. New condo developments with parking on the first floor and no positive commercial appeal. A wide avenue with cars and trucks traveling at high speeds 24/7. If that's what you like, again "to each his own". I just feel the "value" on 4th doesn't nearly compensate for what I believe are the many negatives.

"4th Ave is definitely Park Slope"

Yeah. And the Empire State Building is "definitely" in Chelsea.

If Chelsea extended to 5th Ave as far up as 34th St I guess you could make that argument, but it doesn't.

A factual debate on the "value" of 4th Ave is one thing, but just making stuff up doesn't really help anyone.

what, exactly was made up? Oh, I forgot - they are "tire, rims, and wheels" shops

"A factual debate on the "value" of 4th Ave is one thing"

That's what I thought we were having.

And Fourth Avenue isn't by any STRETCH part of the neighborhood of "Park Slope".

Kimerama, I didn't think about the Argyle. I was commenting about 4th Ave in general. I clearly stated that the zone is a thin sliver in terms of North-south, I just didn't know the exact streets. As for the rest, I'm Peruvian, born and raised there until 26, my entire family lives down there. So it's not bodega-aversion or anything, but it's pretty obvious that Park Slope becomes less affluent west of 5th, and my impression is that the change is more marked in that intersection rather than, say, west of 8th ave. vis-a-vis east of 8th. Although Park Slope is more expensive the closest you are to the park.

"And Fourth Avenue isn't by any STRETCH part of the neighborhood of "Park Slope"."

This discussion has been done to death on other threads, but as usual Matt is wrong. Is it as nice as much of the neighborhood? No. But is it the border and thus a part of it? Yes.

sjtmd-relax, I wasn't referring to your post as made up as you weren't the one comparing a legitimate Park Slope border to a fabricated Chelsea one.

Trompiloco-That's fair, again like I said it's one thing if you just prefer not to live or walk along 4th Ave but to say that it's not part of a neighborhood that it is because of a personal preference is just weird to me and that was my issue with some of these comments. I also just wanted to make it clear to the person asking for more info about the Argyle what school zone it did or didn't fall into and why. I obviously agree that PS is nicer after 4th Ave (I also happen to think that it's a hell of a lot nicer above 5th street when it comes down to personal preference) but I don't think that means that you can't be happy living near 4th Ave.

14th Street is *technically* the start of Midtown. So do we call 16th Street "Midtown"?

Of course not.

16th Street is no more "Midtown" than Fourth Avenue is Park Slope.

That is a godawful analogy. Rather shameless, really. "Midtown" isn't really a neighborhood anymore than "downtown" or "uptown" are.

"Midtown" isn't really a neighborhood anymore than "downtown" or "uptown" are."

Actually, it is.

Have you ever visited New York?

This thread is getting as toxic as the water in the Gowanus Canal. The borders of the Park Slope "neighborhood" have been discussed ad nauseum.

"Actually, it is.
Have you ever visited New York?"

Not in the way you were using it. No one would claim the neighborhood of Midtown starts at 14th St. Have you ever visited? I just live here. And yes, this thread is toxic.

"No one would claim the neighborhood of Midtown starts at 14th St. "

And yet, TECHNICALLY, it does.

Just like TECHNICALLY Park Slope starts Fourth Avenue. But it's just as ridiculous to call that area "Park Slope" as it is to call Chelsea "Midtown".

So you're saying it's actually correct, just that it's "ridiculous" to call it such? Got it. Good work. And you're still confusing midtown (the area) with Midtown (the neighborhood, which doesn't begin anywhere near 14th St).

Officially, according to the city's ORIGINAL maps, "Midtown" begins at the grid: 14th Street.

WillK74 - would love to hear your thoughts. You can email me at cocomufster at gmail.com if you wouldn't mind.

We're not particularly obsessed with neighborhood boundaries although the school zone thing could be an issue in the future. 4th avenue doesn't seem particularly seedy to me and it is only a block away from 5th, so honestly, I just don't think the distinction matters at all. We've looked at apartments on Avenue C & D in the East Village, and I have to say that 4th ave feels safer to me and is near a subway, which is a major bonus, even if it is the slow "R" train. I would of course prefer not to live on a busy street with a Staples and some auto mechanics, however that's just a trade-off with the new construction. I'd also rather not live in a walkup with window A/C units and no parking, so I guess it's a personal preference :)

For the money, I think these new condos are actually a pretty good value. We're coming from Manhattan where there are many, many overpriced condos in questionable neighborhoods that are far from the subway. So for us, seeing affordable new construction in a decent area that's close to transportation is enticing. Those common charges though...

If you look beyond the "new development" and priced other apartments in these questionable areas of Brooklyn, you'd see that those new buildings aren't a "value" at all.

So Gramercy Park,Murray Hill, and Turtle Bay have all been wiped out - now, they're all just "Midtown"?

I feel like a kid tugging at her mother's skirt for attention but I'll try this one more time: StreeteasyNewbie if you end up at the Argyle you are two blocks from the R, M, F, and G which is pretty darn good train access for any area, but especially PS. And there's no question about this, the MTA map is the only one that's apparently not debatable.

Also I can tell you from experience that 4th Ave is not scary, I walk home from those trains all the time, sometimes late, and never feel frightened. I even walk home from the Bell House and Littlefield which are both in Gowanus (ahhhhh) and feel perfectly safe. I mean I don't think 4th Ave is any uglier than Williamsburg and it certainly feels safer (I'm sure it is but I couldn't give you numbers) but that's just my personal opinion.

We have looked at other new developments in areas of Brooklyn that are near the subway and relatively close to desirable bars/restaurants and right now, we're thinking that these Park Slope buildings actually are the best value. Which other developments would you recommend? Williamsburg is also cheap but there is so much inventory that we're not willing to take a financial risk on a condo there. Other than that, we haven't really found anything particularly comparable.

StreeteasyNewbie - I was in your shoes a couple of month's ago. My wife and I was looking for a 2BR in Brooklyn or Manhattan with outdoor space. I scoured everywhere, and settled on Fourth Avenue. I have not moved in yet but am happy with my choice.

StreeteasyNewbie you made a decision to avoid Williamsburg because of inventory and you've decided to go to 4 Ave? There's a lot of inventory there and a lot more to come soon. As for the school zone map, go to maps.nycboe.net/.

good luck

Hi Todd - did you buy or rent? How did you pick your building?

ab_11218 - thanks for the school zone map! I mean, I get the idea that there will be more inventory on 4th ave but I can't even imagine that it would come close to the actual + shadow inventory in Williamsburg today (never mind the additional inventory coming on in Williamsburg for both sales and rentals).

I bought on 4th Ave. I picked based on my needs. I wanted outdoor space, a 2BR, close to trains, the park, restaurants/bars...

Feel free to private message me if that's possible.

Can't seem to get comments to come up... working on it.

Has anyone seen 401 8th Ave #53 in Park Slope? Listing is here: http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/534365-coop-401-8th-avenue-park-slope-brooklyn

Just wanted some thoughts.