Landlord made exorbinant deductions from security deposit. Help!

I mean the apartment wasn't bad. We're civilized adults. I wouldn't classify the state of the apartment beyond normal wear and tear for 7 years of living.

How much was the amount deducted?

Keep in mind that people have very elastic definitions of "light cleaning" and "normal wear and tear".

Even for "light cleaning", the landlord might have had to bring in a cleaning crew at a cost of $500.

It is illegal what they did because they can not deduct for normal cleaning or normal wear and tear or painting and they have to expect things like appliances aren't in the same condition

thats why you never pay your last month and let them have the security. anyways...tell them you are taking them to court.

Yup, that's illegal, baby.

So sorry! Before filing in court, call them and tell them, calmly, that you are outraged and that you will NOT let this slide. That may be enough to get your money back.

I'm a landlord, I want to declare that I never pull such #$%^&! and I get angry when I hear of people doing this.

PS marco_m's advice isn't very good, the better advice is to not rent from knuckleheads. Fortunately, in this economy, no one has to anymore.

Take them to small claims court, they won't even show. That's what happened when Related tried to do the same thing to me.

my advice is the only way ur guaranteed to get ur money back. I only advocate this if you are actually leaving the place in good condition. If you really did trash it, then you should pay to fix it.

Write them a letter that's polite but firm, with a copy of the original report and a deadline to refund your deposit. Some landlords notoriously play that game. My old landlord actually admitted to me it was "more fun and better odds than playing the ponies, and the commute is shorter than Atlantic City" after the hearing. The judge had made him write a check on the spot, but I guess most tenants never bother.
Is your landlord Related?

I always assume I will lose most, if not all my security deposit...it's free and easy money for the LL.

My money's on the landlord being sleazy, but still I wonder if the exit inspection was done prior to actual move-out, and if subsequently there was indeed damage done by movers.

I also wonder if the landlord's rep signed the original inspection report before giving OP a copy.

"SUE, SUE, SUE". That's what is wrong with this country too many lawyers and too much litigation. Its just business, just take your lumps and learn for next time (ie don't pay last month's rent)...

Right on man, qwerty, tell it like it is, amen, you go girl, ain't it the truth, words of wisdom, old boy

... it reminds me of http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/4619-secty-depsit-charge-tenant-for-re-caulking-tub-bc-mold

""SUE, SUE, SUE". That's what is wrong with this country too many lawyers and too much litigation. Its just business, just take your lumps and learn for next time (ie don't pay last month's rent)..."

You don't need a lawyer for small claims court, you dope. Your advice for improving our country, however, is great: do not uphold your responsibilities per contracts you sign. Much better than a country where people who do not uphold their responsibilities per contracts get sued.

cstrabone, this is no big deal: relax and don't get emotional. The sleazy landlord is playing a numbers game on you: many people get overwhelmed in situations like these and are a bit paralyzed to take proper action. All you need to do is what Maly suggests: a firm letter with a specific response date, along with a copy of the original inspection. If they don't respond by the date, take them to small claims. It's quite easy, and you have a pretty simple case (i.e., documentation from the LL or LL's representative that there were no damages).

Have you ever lived in a country where you can't effectively sue someone for breach of contract or liability issues? It isn't pleasant.

How much is your time worth? spend say an hour writing a letter, another filing with small claims, a day + preparing the case and slinging-it out (its worse than jury duty). Save your time/money, just chalk it up to experience.

"improving on country" get with the program! defaulting on obligations IS the American way, ask GM, Chysler, AIG, Tishman, Lehman, Bear....

Is it "Related"? They pulled that same shit to me, which really pissed me off, as I am a landlord myself and would never dream of pulling some of the stunts they did to me to any of my outgoing tenants. I guess they really know how to maximize their profits at such big companies.

That's why you get for moving into a "Luxury building" without screens in the windows. When they refused to give me screens, that should have been my first sign.

when i worked for a realtor, they had a policy of not returning any security deposit until litigation was threatened. i kid you not.

At the end of your letter, include a cc:John (Insert your surname here) Esq.

It tells the landlord you have a lawyer in the family and your gonna be a pain in the ass.

"How much is your time worth? spend say an hour writing a letter, another filing with small claims, a day + preparing the case and slinging-it out (its worse than jury duty). Save your time/money, just chalk it up to experience."

Hmmm. Let's call it a $3000 apartment, so $1500 of deposit was taken. Let's use your estimate of a day's work. Works out to a $375K per year on an after-tax basis, or a $650K gross annual income. The person renting a $3000 place is likely making less than $650K annually, so well worth their time.

Realistically, it'll be an hour or two of work. Write the letter in the first hour. If that doesn't get a response, file a small claims suit in the second hour. That'll get the job done since the landlord isn't going to want to waste their time or pay a lawyer for a sure-lose case. Prep time is zero: just walk in w/ your 7 years worth of lease info, your "no damage" paper followed by one 60 days later that says "damage", and if you were wise enough, any pics you took. Tell your story, judge rules in your favor. So maybe, worst-case, you spend another couple of hours waiting for court.

To someone like me, the money is secondary: the satisfaction of saying smacking down such a person is joy enough.

"It is illegal what they did because they can not deduct for normal cleaning or normal wear and tear or painting and they have to expect things like appliances aren't in the same condition"

Ah, but there is no legal distinction between "normal cleaning" or "normal wear and tear" and "extensive" cleaning and "excessive" wear and tear.

Also, if you sue the LL when you apply for another apartment and the LL finds out you'll never be able to rent in Manhattan again...

98% probability the letter works (and then you have twisted fucks like my old ll). It's worth a letter, and I like the cc idea.
Qwerty, small claims court was very fast and efficient for us; the judges can see through the BS of a crooked ll in a NY minute (so watch out for your caulk charges.)

maly, don't you mean grout charges?

Don't pay last month - I never have, have left my apartments in good condition, and have never had any issue with LLs on it.

I thought qwerty was really into caulk for that moldy feeling?

I think qwerty is cstrabone's landlord. It's pretty clear from the infamous caulk thread that he would never recommend that a tenant use the deposit as last month's rent. Hence, why the "live-and-learn" recommendation, "lawsuits are bad", "a contract isn't important", etc. attitude? Because he is cstrabone's landlord.

Hey qwerty, do you recommend to your tenants to use the deposit as last month's rent?

I was having no luck with a landlord returning a deposit. I'm from UK and wasn't sure what to do so I called 311, they were v helpful and advised that LL has 90 days to return it. As our 90 days was just up they told me to call the Attorney General's office and that they would advise further. I did this and told LL I was involving the AG, hey presto check was mailed that day. Might be worth a try and it doesn't cost anything.

"Normal Wear and Tear" is an objective matter that's generally disagreed upon in T&L issues.

From tenants argument sake, it's generally recommend that all vacating tenants take photos of their property prior to completely vacating the unit. It's invaluable evidence if you have proof on the day you left, that there was no leftover furniture OR Trash, no water damage on the vanity, no excessive wear and tear in the kitchen and all windows, etc. once you decide to take your owner to small claims court, any amateur will be able to assess the deduction not fitting the landlords expense for improvements.

For the property side's sake, the amount deducted from your security deposit can be reflective on how large your apartment was. Just simply repainting a 2 bedroom can cost as much as $2,000 (including materials for at least 2 coats of paint, and labor including scraping walls). If the flooring was in bad shape, the labor and materials required to re-buff and lay a coat of polyurethane exceeds a few thousand dollars as well.

It may be the management company for your building that is assessing it's capital improvements within the building, and deciding to allocate some funds to certain areas to help pay for the hundred other expenses that building must pay off, or just simply adjusting the loss of rent due to the rental climate to minimize their losses.

Either way, the courts always favor the tenants in New York, so with proper argument and evidence, you'll most likely be able to get some of your security back.

"it's generally recommend that all vacating tenants take photos of their property prior to completely vacating the unit."

And even more importantly, take photos of the apartment before you MOVE IN.

That way you have photographic evidence of both "after" AND "before".

If it's really necessary to document the exact condition of your apartment before moving in, chances are you're dealing with an unreasonable landlord. If a firm but polite letter letting it be known you won't stand for an unreasonable situation fails to work, it may not be worth your time or effort to pursue the matter in court.

This is why it's probably worth working your impressions of your new landlord into the equation before signing a lease, along with your other requirements. As cliched as it is, "what goes around comes around" holds up fairly well in my experience. And if you really feel that you've been screwed unnecessarily, having known the landlord via your tenancy you can probably figure out a few ways to even the score. Not recommending anything illegal of course, but there's nothing unjustified about spreading the word to whomever occupies the place after you. If you were an upstanding tenant and your landlord is of the assumption that your kind is a dime a dozen, let him test the waters and take on a few deadbeat renters or have his place go unrented for a couple of months. Either way, things will catch up with him.

"f it's really necessary to document the exact condition of your apartment before moving in, chances are you're dealing with an unreasonable landlord."

One doesn't know if the landlord is "unreasonable" until AFTER they've moved in.

What could possibly be the harm in taking 10 minutes and shooting a roll of film (or you can totally cheap out and use a digital camera)?

Agreed NYCmatt but when people are moving into a new place, it's either exciting, or stressful, and the last thing on their minds is doing something useful for who-knows-when they are moving out.

Just sayin preachin it and practicing it are two different things.

Absolutely no harm in taking digital images of the apartment before you move in, and of course in most cases you won't know whether your landlord is "unreasonable" or not until after you've moved in. This said, if you end up dealing with the sort of person who would withhold your deposit without just cause, they will have little trouble justifying this despite whatever "photographic evidence" you supply. (If it's a digital image, there's no certain way of proving that the photos weren't take post-tenancy, as the date is easily manipulated.)

It more likely will come down to whether it's worth your time, hassle and money to pursue such a matter in court. If your conclusion is yes, then having photos would be helpful. But if it is no, then taking the time before you move in to note your general impressions of the landlord (and particularly, if possible, asking the former tenant if they had any issues - specifically with getting their money back) would be worthwhile.

also .. the word is "exorbitant", so despite my sympathy for your cause, you may have warranted some kind of deduction from your deposit right there..

I recommend Small Claims Court which really isn't a hassle. I do recommend calling the Clerk in advance and checking on the date. You can't pick a date but you can decide not to go file that day if the day that would be assigned isn't convenient.

Generally, the burden will be on the landlord to prove damages.

As far as sending a letter on some real or imagined lawyer's letterhead, that's a joke.

And as far as the landlord having to paint or rebuff the floors, that isn't the tenant's responsibility. Broom clean is the standard, and painting, unless you painted a different color that needs to be restored to white, is normal before a new tenant moves in and is not the responsibility of the departing tenant.

my 2 cents: definitely agree with the posts recommending not paying last month's rent and the letter and then small claims court. A few years back I had a landlord who refused to fix/replace the failing air conditioner, took almost two months to fix a crack in the window (it was there before I moved in), so I simply did not pay last month's rent and moved out. Recently one of my of acquaintances pursued a landlord in court and won. Situation ws similar to the one described obove: $100 worth of work was estimated at almost $1,500. Sue them.

My experience with small claims court (I won) is that it's relatively easy and painless.

You end up blocking out an entire evening, but it's quicker if you go with arbitration rather than a judge.

Bring action in the beautiful Harlem Courthouse and your LL/mgmt will never show.

splaken
"As far as sending a letter on some real or imagined lawyer's letterhead, that's a joke."

Who gave that advice?

Truthskr10, sorry to have misrepresented your position. Not on a lawyer's letterhead but a "carbon copy" to a member of the family who is a lawyer. Same punch line, truth seeker.

i would actually recommend, given the current political climate and recent disclosures, a cc to the attorney general's office.

the shit i'm hearing these days is unreal. broom swept, people. that's the standard. normal wear and tear includes some wear.

aboutready, can you figure out an angle to make some money (aka damages) from this situation, even though you have nothing to do with it?

marco_m
4 days ago
ignore this person
report abuse thats why you never pay your last month and let them have the security. anyways...tell them you are taking them to court.

Marco's advise is, as usual, bad. No landlord will allow for this, except maybe small timers in buildings you wouldnt want to live in. It is a clause in all standard leases that the security deposit can't be used in lieu of rent. unless of course, like marco, you live in the ghetto.

This is crap. If they haven't painted in 7 years -- screw that. The apartment has to be broom swept by most contracts -- not cleaned. Check and go to Landlord Tenant court pro se -- they will lose...

sure jim -- but possession... better in your hands than theirs...

splaken
2 days ago
ignore this person
Truthskr10, sorry to have misrepresented your position. Not on a lawyer's letterhead but a "carbon copy" to a member of the family who is a lawyer. Same punch line, truth seeker."

It's a big difference, one is outright fraud, the other is to be used when a landlord is outright wrong and trying to bully someone who might not take action. I would think the difference is clear.
I've done it, twice. No way to quantify how much it helped or didn't but it definitely didn't hurt.

And yes, you have mistaken truth seeking with truth giving.
What are you, anti- semantic? :)

> Even for "light cleaning", the landlord might have had to bring in a cleaning crew at a cost of $500.

Granted, the landlord has to have a crew in to clean and paint anyway for new tenants... buff the floors, whatever.

Ok. I sent the landlord a demand for the difference and made a strong case as to why they should pay me and avoid small claims court. I told them a judge would probably rule in my favor, given the clean move-out report signed by their manager, which differs greatly from their 'revised' version.

Basically I asked what was the point of having me and their manager sign the report, if it was going to be totally disregarded.

BTW, this is a major landlord of modern buildings. This is not your run of the mill slumlord.

I'll post again, when I have their response.

Thanks to all for the input.

Good luck cstrabone!

Any update?

That signed move-out report will mean a short trial at Small Claims. Very short. And the ruling will appear by mail. In your favor.

Here's what Hugh did the last time a landlord tried to keep MY money:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--GG5hkrx40&feature=related

They deducted half my security.

Of the half they deducted, I asked them to return 75% of that in my letter. I made a strong case as to why I would win in court, but would accept the lesser amount as a matter of convenience.

I just spoke to their rep and supposedly they are cutting me a check for the 75% I requested.

I'll post again if I get the check.

Thanks to all for the support and advice.

Good to hear, cstrabone.

well done.

Did you get the check?

Did you get the check?

NO hasn't gotten the check, b/c I was lying. I'm NOT sending the check!!!!

But what if cstrabone buys you a bag of grout? Will you send the check then?

Ok. Spoke to them again. Apparently, they only do a check run once per month, in the last week of each month.

I'm told that my check should be cut next week.

I'll post around 4/1 and let you know if it was received.

If not, we go to court.

I'll see you in court....

Got paid in full last week.

Check was deposited and cleared.

Chalk up a victory on the tenant side of the ledger for a change.

Thanks to all for your support.

So which management company was it?

Since they settled with me, I'd rather not give them a black eye in a public forum.

All I say it that they are one the top 10 largest landlords in NYC.

I thought this was a complaint by aboutready and her toilet seat. My mistake.

I have had my deposit kept by a well known large management firm, in spite of the fact that I left the apartment in immaculate condition - even had it freshly repainted white because I had changed the colors during my two years there. So I know people's money can be kept for no good reason.

I am about to move out of an apartment in a doorman building near Central Park South owned by a small management firm which has not played fair with me all along. I've payed my rent on time, never made a problem for anyone, made no complaints and will be leaving the apartment in perfect condition. but I know - and have suspected for a long time - that it has no intent to return my deposit. It's made moving out difficult, and even tried to get me out three days earlier than my lease states. Does anyone have any advice about what I might be able to do do protect myself? The firm refuses to do a walk through with me, just wants me to hand the keys to the doorman. I will be taking photographs of everything along with a newspaper showing the current date, but I am not sure what good they will do me.

Send them the pictures in email so you have a record. tell them unless they disagree with this they are welcome to do a final walk thru. Either way, you will have a record in case they don't return your deposit and you go to court.

Guess what, they changed their email address and thus far won't give it to me although I have asked for it several times when I have been there to pay my rent - always on time. That's one more reason I don't trust them. I will have to send the pictures by registered mail instead. I intended to send them a letter after I moved out, but pictures make sense.

This is a doorman building in a good area which required almost $3000 in security. I had no idea the owners were problems when the broker brought me there, but I should have guessed when he got squirrel-ly and wouldn't help negotiate after showing me the place. He just wanted his commission from them and left all the details to me.

Eventually you go to Small Claims Court. 110 Centre Street.
Telephone in advance (same day) and ask the clerk what day they are calendaring, so that if the date isn't convenient, call the next day.
Make sure you file against the specific name (and address) of the landlord on your lease. If there is a separate managing agent, etc., add them too, but make sure you get the specific name of the landlord as written on the lease.