Bye bye Manhattan, hello Brooklyn (but where?)

Why not look for kid friendly areas in Manhattan...i see plenty of parents and kids on the UWS...good luck in your search.

Midwood, Kensington, Windsor Terrace, Dyker Heights, Ditmas Park, Bensonhurst, and Bay Ridge all provide significantly more bang for your buck and are all wonderful neighborhoods too.

As a starting point, see streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/16883-brooklyn-vs-manhattan

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/16883-brooklyn-vs-manhattan

You want it all, I guess. Can you find 1500 sq ft apt under $1MM in those areas in a good school zone? If you can, I guess things have really fallen a lot in Brooklyn. And outdoor space...

I think those are the nabes to look at. I do think Park Slope and Cobble Hill are more family friendly and swarming with young kids than Brooklyn Heights. I loved living in PS and CH. Lots of restaurants, stores... but CH has too many big drug stores now. Used to be so cute. CH is more convenient subway-wise. Closer commute. But you can't beat PS for the overall family friendliness. IF you go to PS, stick to NOrth Slope. Hate the trains from center slope and south slope. Esply past 10pm and weekends.

G/L!! I hope you will find everything you want. Make sure you're in the school zone - if a home is on the border, make sure it's on the right side of the street.

I'm going through exactly the same search as you are Nypaloto, but with a smaller budget. In terms of good schools you should limit yourself to the ones located within school district 15 (Cobble Hill, Carroll Gardens, Park Slope), because there you have also at least 2 good middle schools. However, be aware that Park Slope (or what they advertise as such) is pretty big and not all schools are equally good. Personally, I'm only considering the areas zoned for PS321 and PS107 in Park Slope. If you're really that concerned about schools it's never too early to go to the school's open houses. If Brooklyn is your choice you should quickly decide between walk-ups (the vast majority of the housing stock) and elevator/doormen buildings (which were concentrated traditionally in Brooklyn Heights and almost only exist in other hoods as new developments). In case of new developments, pay close attention to the tax abatement details. Anyway, good luck and keep in touch.

If you looking to move again in 5 years you certainly should not be buying.

Let me re-phrase that (give me a break, it's early!):

If _I_ was looking to move again in 5 years, I certainly wouldn't be buying. But, hey, it's your money, give it to whomever you want.

this is hard to address without knowing your budget and what kind of apt. you want (especially size). or, do you want a building?

having moved from Park Slope to Williamsburg, I can tell you that convenience to the city is way better here, and the parents community is about 10 million times better and more supportive. PS 132, 84, 34, and 31 all worth looking at. 84 is going through big wonderful, positive changes and they have once of the best pre-k programs in the entire city - they also offer dual language classes for K and up.
in general, north williamsburg and greenpoint have way better schools than south park slope. have a friend who describes her kid's school in the south slope as totally ghetto.
also, williamsburg northside (private school) has extended their successful infant and pre-school program into a elementary school as well. other preschools include WNNS, MiEscuelita, ABC daycare, Montessori on Olive, and the Greenpoint Y (excellent for 3's and 4's). There's a brand new charter, T.E.C.C.S and another, Beginnings.

do you commute to work?

Your time horizon is key here. Find a great place in Brooklyn to raise your twins with outdoor space and room to roam. Enjoy it and become part of the community of parents with deep seated stroller envy, working on little sleep and too much stress.

I wonder though how well you have thought out the future if school is an issue for you but your timeline is 5 years. Its a red flag to me and should be to you. You won't find what you want for 1M anyway, and if you do you say you're prepared to renovate. OK, I challenge you to try that with newborn twins and report back later.

My advice to you: RENT until you get it figured out.

You're welcome.

"Our shortlist includes Brooklyn Heights, Cobble Hill, Carroll Gardens and Park Slope, but, as said, we're really hoping you can add some insight to our search. For example, what about Boerum Hill or Fort Greene? Ah, and our intent is to sell in about 5 years."

I love cobble hill. Carroll Gardens might get there, and Ft. Green definitely will. FG is very charming, but needs a few more years of development to get all the things you might need for a yuppie family. Parts of Boerum are even closer. I say avoid BH, you'll pay more and get less. Haven't been a huge fan of PS for years, but it technically will hit your bill.

But here is the thing... you're moving in 5 years. Why buy? Thats considered the breakeven.

And you don't even know what you like!

Why don't you rent, and see what YOU like.

Agree with spinnaker here - your first step is really to explore Brooklyn and figure out what you're really looking for. The neighborhoods can have very different feels from one another, and depending on where your work/social life is (esp if it's all in Manhattan) should have a big say in this. Most people coming from Manhattan probably need to be weaned off it a bit, so going to Bay Ridge, Bensonhurst, etc. might be a bit of a shock, though it's definitely worth visiting.

Why not rent in your neighborhood of choice? Check rentals with outdoor space in the PS 29, PS 261, PS 321, PS 58 school district and make sure you like living there before committing your money.

I think you could find a nice place in PS 321 or 107 in Park Slope in your budget. Here's a classic six that was just listed on Prospect Park West for $1.1 million and low maintenance: http://www.corcoran.com/property/listing.aspx?Region=NYC&ListingID=1949612

No outdoor space, but the park makes a nice backyard. And it's in PS 321.

So, wander around and see what neighborhoods you like. If you check out PS I suggest you go on a Saturday and wander around the farmers' market at Grand Army Plaza. With respect to real estate listings, keep in mind that StreetEasy lets you search by elementary school catchment.

Yeah, I don't get why you care about school zones if you are moving in 5 yrs.

OK, sorry, shouldn't have thrown in that 5-year curve ball. There's a chance I'll be transferring to another office abroad in a few years. Nothing's set in stone though, so I shouldn't have brought it up at this point. But thanks for all the comments.

As to some of the other questions: I commute daily to Midtown; my wife works from home. And we've been renting all life long and just feel like owning a home now. Plus we have some cash, and think it's a reasonably good time to buy (despite possible further slips this year). Lastly, since we meanwhile know what it takes to handle twins (a lot!), we can make a good judgment on if or if not we can do some renovation. We're not talking a gut renovation, but maybe just some updating here and there.

"Yeah, I don't get why you care about school zones if you are moving in 5 yrs. "

true dat.

If there is a significant chance you have to move, I say rent. Then you can figure out where you want to be up until the kids enter school.

Nypaloto - I'm a broker in Brooklyn, and I think you'll be able to find both rentals and sales that suit your needs. And I while get what everyone is saying about renting vs buying, I know what you mean when you say you just feel like owning a home. And even if you're relocating after 5 years, you're looking at a year of preschool (at least - how old are the twins?) before you do so. And in Brooklyn, school districts drive property values pretty consistently.

My office is in Carroll Gardens/Cobble Hill, so I may be a bit biased, but these are great neighborhoods for kids AND parents. There isn't the tyranny of the stroller set (as you might get in Park Slope), nor do you feel like a breeder freak (as you might among the bearded hipsters of North Brooklyn). If you have a car, parking is easier than in Brooklyn Heights or the Slope, and Fairway is just down the road in Red Hook. Cobble Hill is pricier, but if you cross Hicks Street into the Columbia Waterfront District (notably on Tiffany Place), you get the school without the high prices.

Carroll Gardens South has great places/prices, plus Frankies, Prime Meats, and Buttermilk Channel...

Tina
(Brooklyn broker)

nyp, tina's writeup is right on. Frankies, maybe the best Italian in all of the city. Freakin' awesome.

While the hype might go to the bearded spots, the foood estabishment pretty clearly recognizes Smith street and such as the best food in Brooklyn. I'll add in Saul (michelin pick, thats a BFD).... that French place on Court & Kane. And I'm a fan of Chip Shop (also in PS).

Love Frankie's, but have only been to the LE location. The twins are meanwhile 4 months old, so we're slowly resurrecting from hibernation! Thanks all for your tips and thoughts.

I've been to the Brooklyn original probably 30 times, never the LES one, so I can't speak to the comparison.

All I know is, the Cavatelli is freakishly good (even, if not specifically, cold at 2 am that night).... and the majority of people I've gone with agree that it at the top tier of casual italian, if not the best. They also opened the next door as the steak place, and supposedly coffee store and cafe coming, like a corner empire. Thats technically Carrol Gardens, but with that a close walk, and all the other little decent places, I think Cobble Hill is as good as it gets with Brooklyn cuisine.

just remember, the hike from CG on the other side of the highway to the train is 15 min up hill. that would add quite a bit to the 40 minute commute to midtown.

the other thing to consider in CG and CH is that if you're above Smith, where prices are reasonable, you get the Projects school. all of of Boerum Hill and Fort Greene, belong to schools that you would not want your kids going to. if you want the park and a pleasant place to raise kids, Windsor Terrace is the place to be. You can get a nice house in a good school district with a parking spot for under $1M. You'll be right next to Prospect Park and the lake, kensington horse stables, walking distance to good part of South Park Slope and a 3 minute drive from the rest of Park Slope. Depending on where you'll be, you'll take the train on the border of PS or 1 stop away.

> just remember, the hike from CG on the other side of the highway to the train is 15 min up hill.

Just remember, that isn't Caroll Gardens. If you cross the bqe, you're in Red Hook. If you cross in in Cobble Hill, you're in the "Columbia Heights Waterfront District". Neither is what we're talkoing about.

> the other thing to consider in CG and CH is that if you're above Smith,

I assume you mean below / west of Smith. The projects are South West of CH.
And, if you're on that side of Smith, I don't think you're in CH or CG anyway.

Which was part of the earlier point I made... you want to be on the water side of Court...

> Windsor Terrace is the place

Weren't you just complaining about 40 minute commutes? Way too far out for my tastes. Plus, in terms of food, culture, retail, WT isn't even close. At that point, you might as well be in Forest Hills.

And CH/CG won't need the car you keep mentioning...

Hi guys, I just found something that looks pretty interesting. A sale in a new development in Carroll Gardens for 225 psf. Yes, 225. I tried to start a new thread about it but SE didn't let me, so I'm posting it here:

Reviewing recent closed sales I ran into one for apartment 4N at Court Street Lofts, in Carroll Gardens. It's listed as the sponsor sale of a 1175 sqft apt. for 265,000. According to the dimensions, this apartment looks similar to 3N, a 2 bed 1.5 bath apt. that sold for 610,000 in Feb. 2007. Comments? That would be a loss of 57% of the value in 3 years. Does anybody know how distressed is this building?

Actually, they seem to have closed on several apt. at around 220 to 260 psf during the last months of last year. I wonder if they needed to raise cash fast or if they were firesaling the last units.

Tromp: there were many posts devoted to Court Street lofts on Bstoner and curbed.

Tromp: could be an insider sale.

based on the CG borders of 5 years ago, Court Street Lofts are in Red Hook. Everything beyond Luquer St was considered that for many years. It's like saying that 20 st is in Park Slope South. The kids would definitely be going to the project school that's associated with Red Hook.

somewhereelse, the comment was not meant on your post, but the one from tina, so just relax your self (a little less coffee would do you good). as far as the cuisine and such, i would like to see what's more important to parents of 4 month old twins, nice restaurants that they don't have time to go to on regular basis or the huge park at their side and a car to get them to and from whereever they need to go. i have 2 kids and the last thing that i would want to do was drag them on the train on regular basis.

ab_11218 it would be great if you researched just a bit before posting. All that area is zoned for PS58, which is a very good school. And frankly Luquer, Huntington, Nelson, etc. are all pretty tree-lined streets with identical housing stock than, say, 3rd Place. IMHO Carroll Garden's fringe is better than, say, Park Slope's fringe, meaning 4th Street.

The Bstoner and Curbed posts on Court Street Lofts are old, nothing concerning recent dramatic trouble that could have led to such sales. And I don't think those were insider sales because they were numerous, but who knows, really.

Actually, they ARE insider sales. There's 8 of them in the realm of 320 to 220 psf and none had a previous listing. The ones that did have formal listing with a brokerage sold for 470 to 580, which is more in line with current reality. Bummer.

"While the hype might go to the bearded spots, the foood estabishment pretty clearly recognizes Smith street and such as the best food in Brooklyn"

There's no denying Smith Street has great food, but there's really no denying that Williamsburg is an essential hood to experience some of the best Brooklyn cuisine. All the major food critics have said as much and I believe it's the only other Brooklyn hood with Michelin stars (though some people put way too much stock in those, IMHO). The food is one of the reasons I feel in love with the neighborhood. There are some great places in Prospect Heights and a couple noteworthy restaurants on Cortelyou Rd.