Nearly half of US households do pay fed income tax

i'm kind of looking forward for the coming mess in entitlements and public pensions, the earlier the better so that we can move on and talk about sth more fun...

The secret to wearing a thong comfortably is to get one a size or 2 bigger so it doesn't dig in & up.

okay, fair enough. keep a keen eye on how things unfold, if it really starts to get ugly the light will have all the critters scurrying to the cracks in the foundation. then 500 psf will seem more than a dream - although i am almost with ya on that one too.

dwell, thanks for the advice on the thong - sounds like you know of what you speak :)

you're welcome, ranger ;)

Federal borrowing to throw money at states, so the states wouldn't have to fix their budgets and just continue irresponsible spending, made the problem worse, not better.

It's the predictable outcome of Federal non-military spending cuts in the 1980s, pushing expenditures down to the state and local level. Reap what you sow.

Seldom right and wrong again alan. The biggest problem with state budgets are the outsized costs of union employee benefits. That and Medicare fraud.

The solution to Medicare fraud is obvious: hire adequate staff to root it out. Same goes for taxation fraud, which I bet is more rampant than Medicare, by leaps and bounds, orders of magnitudes, et cetera.

But really ... the biggest problem with state budgets is that they were forced to take on the spending that should happen at the Federal level. It's a fact, Jack___.

http://www.pewcenteronthestates.org/report_detail.aspx?id=57264

actually, is states stop providing health care benefits to public retirees (which are not guaranteed by any constitution) the unfunded problem gets solved almost right away.

The solution is never going to be about singling out one group and taking away their money. As soon as we can get past that, we may be able to start tackling the problem for real.

We could save a ton of money on medicare by permitting the purchase of Canadian pharmaceuticals. The current policy allows for higher drug prices in the u.s. than outside. Hiring more cops doesn't seem to work.

and asking people to use generics whenever they are available if the taxpayer is paying.

Yet another plan to screw one group of stakeholders. Brilliant.

>> he solution is never going to be about singling out one group
>> and taking away their money. As soon as we can get past that,
>> we may be able to start tackling the problem for real.

hey, we agree on something! :)

so...here's how we get started.

a politician stands up and says: there are no easy answers anymore. for a viable future, we need to have shared sacrifice. rather than try to figure out how and which programs to cut, lets start with a lengthy dialogue aimed at creating a process that is fair.

i naively thought that obama was that guy; i think he may have thought he was as well.

There are two phrases my children are never allowed to say... shared sacrifice and fair share... Two of the most evil ideas in politics.

Lets see cc... I think all the old people on social security with income over $30.000 a year should give up their benifits...Ya know shared sacrifice. Also, the poor instead of paying taxes should do thei fair share with community service. You bettcha.

we've already established that you have no answers and no desire to do anything but spout empty slogans. and of course shout down any attempt at anything constructive while you rant on about slavery and income taxes. if only everyone were like you, all our problems would be infinitely worse.

Julialg. Flmao. Your problem (w all this talk of individual merit etc etc) is that you are not successful enough to 'share' anything. How can you split penny?

So let me get this straight, if you are dying of cancer and one of your child lives near you and another lives in australia for work and that Australian kid sends money to the other sibling (as a thank you to taking care of a dying mom) is that shared sacrifice? Or would you prohibit it? Or you think it's okay bc it's in family?

Plz keep youR neurotic psycho selfish kids away from my kid in the sandbox. I'm trying to teach my kid to share the sand shovel so that in my utopian vision we'd have a pile of sand toys at each park so that we don't fill the planet w/ crappy plastic toys.

Don't do Palin..... Thatz not funny

>>------------------
>> process that is fair.

sure, i guess the friction is in how one defines fairness though. some folks say "i won, fair and square" whereas others say "you won; i lost; that's *not* fair". the conversation gets muddied to hell when one introduces entitlements, welfare, corporate welfare, bailouts, etc. i hope that all of these things can be minimized as much as possible so that everyone can feel that they truly have an equal opportunity as success. otherwise there will continue to be feelings of resentment and unfairness.

>>------------------
>> i naively thought that obama was that guy; i think he may have thought he was as well.
maybe; he certainly has a good drumbeat going with "shared sacrifice" and collectivism stuff. btw, i still think somebody hacked into CC's account :)

fair is not about winning or losing. and the old adage about life not being fair is true. while i'm citing cliches, how about: we are where we are. whining and complaining about how we got here and trying to retroactively change things is never going to work. i don't pretend to have answers; as i said earlier, i think a conversation needs to begin about defining a process to go forward. without slogans, without agendas other than to make the most of what we have.

>> Australian kid sends money to the other sibling

take it easy...you guys are closer than you think. shared sacrifice is good. charity is good.

the problem is that when you have a leader that twists this language to mean that the citizen has to surrender their property so that govt can help out a third party. nevermind that this isn't charity or shared sacrifice...there is no personal connection between the "sacrifice" being made and the supposed benefit.

to further state the case, i'd suggest looking at the administrations tax policy on charitable contributions as well as the wholesale destruction of the private student lending industry. yuck

the rightful place for shared sacrifice IS the family like you are saying w67. and...this is key...the family sacrifices FIRST...not the taxpayer. the local community and civic organizations can play a role next, and then the state....in that order. isn't this fair and appropriate?

>> fair is not about winning or losing
agree 100%

>> begin about defining a process to go forward
fair enough.

oh, and HI julia!

careful. we're trying to have a dialogue about process and you're citing details. for every stupid policy on one side of the equation, there is an equally stupid one on the other side. fox news is making $700 million a year pointing fingers; good for them and bad for the rest of us. msnbc just isn't as good at it.

help me out: why are you so enamored of julia? she seems like a hate mongering sycophant. what am i missing?

Let me adjust the story. Both of Julia's children die in afghanistan fighting against terrorists.

Your turn.

660incontract, cc hasn't changed. at all. and he and others are WORLDS apart from julia. yes, family to the extent possible should be the first source of aid and compassion. but there should be other sources as well, including society as a general concept.

i'd bet if you approached julia's kids and said compassion you'd be met with vacant stares.

julia, i think you should pay for all of your own medical treatments out of pocket forever. insurance after all is just a way of spreading risk and sharing it. so you must not believe in it. do you have a million lying around to pay for a lifetime of medical treatments should you need them? do all of the people you love have the same? if your child were to be diagnosed with leukemia tomorrow could you cover the costs without insurance? if not shut the fuck up. if so, good for you, and now try to envision a world where health insurance isn't available for anyone.

w67thstreet
42 minutes ago
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...
Plz keep youR neurotic psycho selfish kids away from my kid in the sandbox. I'm trying to teach my kid to share the sand shovel so that in my utopian vision we'd have a pile of sand toys at each park so that we don't fill the planet w/ crappy plastic toys.

Liar.
You've advocated mortgage fraud.
Your criticism of the IRS is suspect.
You cheated one of your landlords.
When you were a landlord you engaged in litigation with your tenants.
You brag about how smart you are compared to others.
You brag about your posessions compared to others.
And you tell someone not to hang around your kids in the sandbox, yet you go an make fun of other kids because you don't like their name. Does little Aslan ring a bell.
Liar

And columbiacounty thinks the solution is a "lengthy dialog". Amusing.

wait, wait, let me correct my last sentence,
And columbiacounty thinks the solution is a "lengthy dialog" initiated by a politician. Amusing.

It is not sacrifice if you want to do it... If i want to help my brother that is fine...But, if i 'am forced to help that is "shared sacrifice".

Look, we've got the triumvirate posting today.

w67thstreet makes fun of 5 years old kids' names but wants his kids to be a role model.
w67thstreet who was ejected by his father's real estate business.
w67thstreet encourages mortgage fraud and has a questionable point of view on the IRS.

columbiacounty thinks the solutions to our problems is a "lengthy dialog" initiated by a politician.

aboutready is lecturing on collective insurance yet contributes nothing to our tax base, wants her landlord to pay her, won't fix even the simplest thing in her apartment (to questionable hygiene), blames others for her daughter's asthma.

It is really funny aboutready, my daughter did have a terrible cancer when she was 3 years old.(neuroblastoma stage 4).. I really despise liberals preaching their do goodism.

Flmao. One final quick note.

They did a 'shared sacrifice' psycology study. Put lots of ppl in a train platform. Then one person gets mugged by a big dude. The muggeee yells 'help'. The more ppl around less they would help. Ie if one other person on platform that person would come to rescue.

So much for counting on the goodwill of th populous.

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/17221-lesson-4-mathematical-example-of-moral-hazard-why-taxpayers-r-screwed

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/16702-dems-reject-same-sex-marriage-bill

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/18080-its-official-the-irs-are-morons

Can't help myself. It's like toting with a rat bf I kill it.

In Julia's world it would be julia's fault for not taking out death insurance on her two kids. Individual merit!

Quick, everyone press "report abuse" so that no one thinks anything bad about w67thstreet or aboutready. (Sorry but columbiacounty has been banned/opt-in required since January and that hasn't changed.)

w67thstreet
16 minutes ago
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Can't help myself. It's like toting with a rat bf I kill it.
In Julia's world it would be julia's fault for not taking out death insurance on her two kids. Individual merit!

Didn't you used to sue your tenants when you were a landlord, and at the same time turn around and not pay your last month's rent on the apartment you rented?

and did your child have health insurance julia? or did you pay every fucking cent yourself? that's my point.

you'd think someone who'd had such a dreadful experience might have more empathy.

i really do despise assholes preaching their hate. you're like a 14-year-old who has just discovered an "ism". wow, mom, we suck and we should be _____. when forced to analyze the implications or possibilities, the teen pouts and slams the bedroom door. "you don't KNOW mom. libertarianism COULD work. it SHOULD work." grow up. the world is more complicated than any "ism."

helpful rant, really explanatory.

"It is really funny aboutready, my daughter did have a terrible cancer when she was 3 years old.(neuroblastoma stage 4)."

I'm really sorry that happened to your daughter, and to you ... but it goes a long way to explain why you're a broken person.

I find that many people at the lunatic fringes of the GOP -- the "religious" "right", the dittoheads, etc. -- have a sad sad story that defines their lives: sickness, death, alcoholism, child abuse, etc.

Find personal healing through mass compassion -- not merely meting out little gifts to the particular individuals upon whom you choose to bestow them, in exchange for daily acknowledgment of your transfer of that which you have plenty, and they have little. Bow, bow, ye lower-middle-classes ...

Life isn't complicated. This country is about equal opportunity, not equal outcome. Gifting other people's money is not gifting.

ah, i don't agree and i don't disagree (although i do agree that it was a terrible thing to happen to a child, mother and a family). many people have had misfortune. people react differently.

the bottom line is that if julia had health insurance she has accepted largesse from others, as she has spent more in terms of health care than she has paid for. which is as it should be. the risk should be spread. but i wonder what she would say about a three-year-old who needed care who had no health insurance? because the parents hadn't paid the $600 per month or so necessary to maintain insurance over the 36 months of the child's life should that child not receive care? because care would certainly cost more than the $25,000ish that would have been paid in insurance premiums.

julia, would you let the child die without care? or would you think that the system should keep the child alive?

rs, do you have health insurance? if you have a disease that costs more than you've paid do you expect the insurance to pay for it?

equal opportunity. you crack me up.

Purchasing insurance is not socialism. First time I heard Life,Hurricane or Car insurance or any insurance described this way.

of course it's a form of socialism, particularly health insurance.

does everyone receive the same benefit? does everyone pay the same costs? you can pay huge amounts and only utilize half of the amount you spent or you can spend the same amount and utilize double the amount you spent.

what does that sound like to you? although you don't want to think about it in those terms, of course, because you're not willing to forego your health insurance.

geez, leave for a little while and look what happens - absolute anarchy on the board. w67 i might have to mail you your thong back soon.

ar - to answer your question to rs (if i may) the insurance company should pick up the tab. thats their business, how they derive their p&l not a zero sum game for them. however, just so that you know how i feel on the "moral" issue - i am for healthcare coverage for all just that i am very frightened that the gvmt will screw this one up too.

alan - you are a pretty dispicable dude. take you effin armchair judgements and stick them up your a**.

w67th - keep rockin even with all the crazies gunning for ya.

Q:Does everyone receive the same benefit? does everyone pay the same costs
A:Risk based pricing

For what it's worth I believe that making health care coverage more available and at lower cost is a good thing. My issue has been that the current bill that passed wasn't a responsible one for cost reasons.

rf, yes i agree, healthcare coverage is vital. i'm just chatting with some libertarians who think that taxes are vile and people shouldn't get aid. RS and julia, namely, randians both. before you judge AH, i wonder if you've been paying attention to what julia espouses?

healthcare is an interesting issue in this regard. because i doubt that even the most hardcore libertarian wants to give up his/her health insurance, and yet it is a blatant distribution of risk/benefit/costs.

RS, underwriting isn't your strong suit, but that's the basis for health care insurance. you spend too much, i pay more. julia's child had cancer (once again, tragic) that affects the premiums everyone in her office pays, particularly if it's a small office, less so if it's a big one.

rs, i agree that the plan as passed wasn't what i would like. you and i would disagree as to whose fault that was.

We needed tort reform, ability to buy Canadian drugs, higher deductibles, used the Swiss system of basic and extra health insurance. The list is endless.

"Just a thought, but after the expiration of the bush tax cuts - NYC households who make over $500K will be taxed more than 50% (roughly 3.6% to NYC, NY State 8.97% for those making over 500K and 39.6% Federal). $500K may be some fabulous amount of money in some places, but for a family living in NYC it makes you (maybe) just above middle class -- It makes me wonder if (some) people will move to CT to save that 6% and if it will impact some part of the real estate market here."

Yes they probably will. Because they can buy a better lifestyle for $300k and put the $100k netted on the last $200k into savings. However, do note that state and city tax are a deduction vs federal. Go to PaycheckCity.com. Taxes on $500k all in are like 42%.

sr - okay, spar away. not rushing to judgement on ah in my opinion. just a low blow by him when someone discloses personal info and its used as a stick. not very becoming, especially for one of the boys who apparently is carrying the flag for the masses. dubious at best.

"$500K may be some fabulous amount of money in some places, but for a family living in NYC it makes you (maybe) just above middle class"

... I missed this amusing statement the first time around. But it makes me wonder: what exactly is the median income for a family living in NYC? And what percentage premium is $500K to that? I'm very curious to know, if anyone has the numbers and can do the math.

I love when someone makes fun of someone else for 'carrying the flag for the masses'. Maybe some of you cocksuckers should ask yourself if we are doing enough for the lower classes when the degree of income inequality has been on such a flat rise for so long...rather than worrying about whether or not the cop or teacher pays taxes. In America, all men are created equal...except for the health care provided (changing) and the local public school education. Then talk about how $500k isn't a great income and lifestyle anywhere, including Manhattan. Sickening.

A good way to look at and understand the personal-choice opt-in health insurance risk pool versus the government-mandated, even single-payer approach is not theoretical. It is/was quite real. It's urban fire-fighting, now firmly accepted by all but the most lunatic of the lunatic Liberian fringe (probably even by julialg, who will come up with an excuse for why it's an exception to the Liberian mandate).

Fire brigades used to be wholly-owned subsidiaries of property insurance companies. 123 Main St. is insured by Acme Insurance, and Acme Bucket 'n' Ladder comes to put the fire out. The same kerosene lamp that's knocked over by Mrs. O'Leary's cow also sets 125 Main Street ablaze? Tough shit, McGillicudy ... burn, MF, burn! Sue Elsie.

Are today's municipal fire departments just another example of creeping socialism?

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_New_York_City#Income

Manhattan median HHI in 2007 was $64K. Average was $121K.

rf, i understand how it seems but this is someone (julia) who consistently shows nothing but scorn for just about everyone. she even channels palin. she engages in low blows against the masses daily. even so, i feel nothing but empathy for a mother who had to undergo such pain.

hey, fuck you rhino. i wasnt making fun of him, its called IRONY you half-cocked meathead. can you go back to what you do best and turn on your excel spreadsheets and crank out some bullshit model.

Go fuck a teapot you ignorant loser...

oooooh, good comeback. remeber the roid shots are after your six cups of coffee.

So witty. Go to church with the rest of your fucking right wingers and talk with your pals about how wrong it is that you 'carry' American society degenerate. Then choose a fanboy handle.

Thanks, NWT ... I was wondering about that. Are there any mathematicians out there? I'm not all, like, mathy and stuff, but it sounds to me like a middle-class NYC family ekeing by on $500K probably earns like, y'know, ten or fifteen percent* more than the median earner-family, which is a lot of Happy Meals."

* Nota Bene: That's just a rough ballpark guesstimate; we'll have to wait for the math team and their arsenal of slide rules for the official numbers.

wow, somehow i missed much of this.

I think even the morons here realize that $500k is not the middle of anything. The biggest issue is whether or not the 45% and rising average tax burden is too much....especially considering the cost of living here in Manhattan. The other issue, is apparently that families who make under $50k in America are milking the upper 50%. What a fucking sad joke when the sickeningly fortunate cry. Forget European socialism...apparently they want European feudalism.

you know, RS, i am SO fucking tired of putting up studies that show you are wrong. tort reform is but a penny in the massive problem that is health care.

and i've posted study after study to show so, but of course because of your agenda you ignore. the plaintiff's bar has been virtually eviscerated in health care.

when my daughter had her appendix out they showed me a chalked X on her abdomen, above the appendix. i asked why. they said to avoid mistakes. it was a newish policy.

Tort reform blah blah. This country works because you and your dad made some money. If others are born into shit well that's their own problem. Anything else is socialism.

If you could save a few billion why not? OK. the lawyers won't be happy. But it lowers insurance premiums on doctors, reduces unnecessary tests, and lowers health care costs a little. Why would anyone other than a lawyer be against Tort reform?

Doctors will always make mistakes. A mistake is not the same as negligence. People should not view having a procedure as a potential lottery. And let's not talk about the ambulance chasing lawyer.

By the way, there are many talented and ethical lawyers out there. Clearly I'm discussing the other kind of which there are more than a few.

It's always good, when feeling poor and down-trodden, to get the woe-is-me whapped out of us by looking at some statistics.

nwt, so true. rhino, so true.

RS, AGAIN, you are just spouting a baseless opinion. i've posted study after study. tort reform has already largely occurred. if somebody takes out the wrong organ they should be sued. it's malpractice. just like stroock might be sued for putting in the wrong date on an offering plan. or are you saying corporations shouldn't be allowed to sue as well, was that just a mistake?

you're such a lying, manipulative piece of shit.

hey rhino you heaping bag of shit - wrong on your profile analysis but not surprising. youre like the dude who comes to the party three hours late, goes straight to the bar and sucks up all the booze and then changes the music that everyone has been listening to the last few hours.

most of what has been said over the last day and a half (despite the thread headline) has nothing to do with the poor sucking money from the upper class. its been about gvmt waste and fiscal suicide. now feel free to thump away at your keyboard. what a maroon. rhino - geez talk about handles.

Politics is this. Some people don't feel that its part of the American dream to provide a decent base of education and health care to its least fortunate citizens. Often these same people are the ones who are willing to go to any length and expense to police the globe. Then they go to church. I could do with almost all of it....if the kicker wasn't churchgoing.

Ranger, I am going to bid you fuck off now. You can stop directing comments at me.

moi, aussi. fuck you too.

rf, you do realize that rhino was being sarcastic (or at least i think so, given a long history of reading rhino's posts, sorry rhino if i misrepresented).

and rf, there have been many over the past few weeks who are only concerned about the poor sucking money from the upper class, or from any class. the tone here has changed considerably, so maybe people are a bit touchy.

ar - fair enough, not opposed to healthy discourse and even grousing but when somebody stomps in the room and starts alamming the furniture around, they need to sit down or get thrown out.

listen, i am a bit opposed to giving too much on personal history (i am sure you can appreciate) but i certainly understand from what you speak. i came from it, lived it and to a certain degree "escaped" it. i am one of the "lucky" ones - and i don't look back or down at any of it. nor do i dismiss the real plight that exists for many. But, theres always buts.....

aboutready
17 minutes ago
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rf, you do realize that rhino was being sarcastic (or at least i think so, given a long history of reading rhino's posts, sorry rhino if i misrepresented).
...

Rhino86
about 1 hour ago
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Go fuck a teapot you ignorant loser...
...

rf, you're one of the ones who realizes there are no easy answers. and yet...

it's hard. very hard. what do we do now? how do we repair what was done? how can we avoid being bitter and trying to assign blame, which while temporarily rewarding isn't very useful?

i give a lot of personal history, and i don't regret it. how can we understand people without knowing where they come from? and why should we be ashamed of our personal history, insofar as it came before we had free will? these things are important and interesting, although i can certainly understand others wishing to be discreet. i feel that so many people share the pain, but so few are willing to admit it (other than the oprah sorts, i'm not talking about that). how british/american.

anyway, good for you on the escape. i escaped too. and we have a household income that's multitudes of times larger than my family's was when i grew up. and would i like to be able to save, and have this that and the other and not pay exorbinant taxes to the various governments? of course. but at what cost?

i'm pissed beyond belief. but not at the poor. at the system that decided in 1998 and 2003 that economic pain was unacceptable and we needed to pump pump pump beyond belief. and then the people in regulatory positions who didn't give a rat's ass that nobody was obeying the rules. and then the regulatory agencies (quasi included, fasb) who decided in 2008 that the rules needed to be loosened.

rangersfan
4 minutes ago
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ar - fair enough, not opposed to healthy discourse and even grousing but when somebody stomps in the room and starts alamming the furniture around, they need to sit down or get thrown out.

listen, i am a bit opposed to giving too much on personal history (i am sure you can appreciate)...

AR can appreciate? She just again revealed a medical procedure on her daughter. Previously she told us about her daughter's sexual history. And her husband's tax problems. And her older brother's derelictness. And her date with the toilet plunger around Christmas Eve in the late 1980s.

ar - got to sign off but i will hit you back up - too much "noise" right now so taking my boy to the park. have a good day.

Have fun at the public governmental park, and don't run into any Oylindiz feeyuhnz!

At least the Liberians won't be there, because they didn't make a personal choice to pay for it.

Once again I think I'm not getting something here

Eats you up when you just can't get everything from everyone else without any effort.

aboutready, I was employing regional dialect for "Islanders fans" ... they're a hockey team in or near Hicksville.

But that's not all -- you're also missing sidecars on the terrace.

hey---maxcomm1....go fuck yourself.

columbiacounty Ignored comment. Unhide

what?

fuck you

Very frustrating I can't read what you are saying.

good...fuck you stupid.

Please try typing more slowly. There may be an art to it like the Metrocard swipe.

to 660: not sure that you can wade through this but interesting to see what happens, isn't it?

LICComment
2 days ago
alan, you really don't know what you are talking about. Switzerland? The whole country has less people than NYC alone, it has one of the most competitively capitalist economies in the world, low tax rates, minimal military costs, and has highly profitable banks due to its bank secrecy laws.

... thank you for supporting my view, LICC, although you should have pointed out that by "Belgium" I meant, of course, Luxembourg.

What you say goes a long way to explain that according to the CIA (those pinkos), the US is #8 worldwide by GDP per capita, while Switzerland, one of the most competitively capitalist economies in the world, low tax rates, lags at lucky 13.

Luxembourg, that Stalinist regime that provides healthcare to its populace? #3
Norway, reduced by its social services and taxation to eating herrings [ugggh!]? #4

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita

Homophobe alert:

Rhino86
about 4 hours ago
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report abuse I love when someone makes fun of someone else for 'carrying the flag for the masses'. Maybe some of you cocksuckers ...

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/UploadedPDF/1001289_who_pays.pdf

The fraction of tax units paying no income tax varies
widely by filing status and type of unit. About 47 percent
of single filers will owe no tax, compared with 38 percent
of joint filers and 72 percent of heads of household. More
than half of elderly tax units and tax units with children
will pay no income tax this year.
Differences in income explain much of that variation.
Single people and heads of household have average
income under $30,000 while married couples filing
jointly have income averaging nearly $75,000. More than
60 percent of units with income between $20,000 and
$30,000 pay no income tax, compared with only about 20
percent of those between $50,000 and $75,000.
Filing status matters too, largely because of differences
by filing status in exclusions, deductions, and credits,
and in the presence of children. More than three-fourths
of joint filers and heads of household with income
between $30,000 and $40,000 pay no tax compared with
just one-sixth of single tax units in that income range.
And almost 90 percent of units with children in that
income category pay no tax, reflecting, in part, the value
of the earned income and child tax credits.

http://firedoglake.com/2010/04/09/brooksley-born-raises-an-important-question-but-answers-are-weak/

FCIC hearings. It's comes out that CDS through Synthetic CDO's more losses resulted than if we didn't have CDS.

cc thinks that having people pay toward the benefits they receive is "screwing them" over.
aboutready thinks that someone who enters into a private agreement with a health insurance company, pays the premiums, then has a claim for the coverage they purchased is socialism. She also continues to push her lies about tort reform, even though they have been shown false over and over again.
More people think Rhino is off-the-wall.
alan thinks government enforced mass transfers of wealth is "a little compassion."

Sad.

Pitiful

Perhaps you may want to let others post their own views and you can post yours.

You wanna know the beauty of being rich in the U.S.? You always have the upper-middle class fighting your fight on taxes. Some guy living in LIC or Atlanta making $100K takes up arms over the fact that the last $25K of income is going to get taxed at 40% rather than 35%, so a $1K difference to them. Meanwhile the rich guy making $1M sits back and watches the upper-middle class fighting a $40-50K fight for them.

Let me let you all in on a little secret. Taxation is a form of wealth re-distribution. Services provided by the government, whether widely shared (defense, roads) or more narrowly shared (welfare, education) are re-distributed unequally. The bottom x% will always get more back than they pay in, and the top will always pay more in than they get back. Flip that around, you'll have a smaller pie to slice up, and you might be looking at a revolution.

So as long as we're agreed upon the bottom x% receiving more than they give, what difference does it make if they give $0K and receive $10K vs. giving $10K and receiving $20K. At that point, it's semantics. I'm no expert, but I believe the whole point of the "pay no income tax" structure came as part of welfare reform, with the intention of incentivizing welfare recipients to work rather than sit around.

Argue all you want about the extent to which government should re-distribute wealth, but who cares whether the net gainers put in $0 vs. something larger.