Allocate footage to dining room or kitchen?

I vote bigger kitchen.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

I agree. Kitchens are the new living rooms. And that's not a bad dining room size anyway for nyc. You could still probably seat 8 people there.

kitchen

kitchen

Kitchen.

I think most people in NYC would be delighted to be on the horns of such a dilemma but yes kitchen, especially for resale value.

Depends. What do buyers in your building want? Formal dining space or eat-in kitchen. If there isn't any room to eat in your kitchen comfortably, maybe you might want to go for the larger dining room. If you aren't using your dining room as such, then bigger K.

Dining room.

Tear down the walls! Up the revolution!!!

When I sold my UWS classic 7, buyers were put off by the space I had taken out of the dining room and put in the kitchen. Dining room was 12x14. Kitchen was 12 x 16.

No question Kitchen.

anyway, awald, are you sure you don't have plumbing in an existing wall between the two rooms?

No, we have a gas line but it can be moved. The real limitation is window placement and not putting up a wall that breaks a view.

Dinning Room

I gather you don't want an open plan. Given that, I'd agree with the chorus of "kitchen" but for the fact that a tiny dining room is depressing and cramped, and you hit a wall once your big Arbor Day feast has one person too many. If you don't like your kith that might be a desirable effect.

Carefully measure and plan your dining table, fully extended, with the folding table added to the end, and how many people it can hold, then figure out sideboard (taking into account how much room you need from table edge to a fully pull-away chair, and then for guests to pass between them).

I think even the larger proposed dining room is too small for all that, especially aesthetically, and you'd be better off with a well-designed open plan. Unless you don't entertain, in which case all of that applies for resale consideration.

Is there some kind of consensus on what's a good dining size for, say, 8?

84" table (by about 40" or greater width" seats 8 fairlycomfortably. If you go up to 96" and you have small scale chairs, you can sort of squeeze in 10(but they really do have to like each other)

If at all practicable, I would go for the semi-open kitchen approach. As in eat exclusively in the dining room, and have a wider-than-usual opening between K and DR and/or pocket doors/french doors. But keep the larger DR. I think for reasle, people think they will entertain more than they actually will.

It's hardly a consensus, but there's this from http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_dining_room_size :

"If you have a table that seats 8, the would be roughly 40 x 72. You would want 3 to 4 feet more on each side to allow for chairs and a path to get there. In addition, most hutches and credenzas are 24-36 inches wide. So, my guesstimate would be 12 ft x 20 ft. for a reasonably sized room."

My dining table, which seats 8-10, is 92 inches -- a smidge over 7.5 feet long -- with the leaf in, and we've got it in the living room, which is about 12.5 feet wide. The idea of three to four feet on a side seems kinda luxurious, and kinda suburban -- I don't think that's usual in NY.

If we did, however, have 10 feet of width, we could easily put in some sideboard action (our china is currently in the other end of the living room.)

10 by 16 seems like you're talking a table for 12.

The easiest way to figure this out, however, is to go to a rug store and look at those carpet sizes and see how big they feel to you.

ali r.
DG Neary

I think a lot of people are forgetting that for many families, the "dining room" isn't just for dining. More often than not, it's an "activity room" for the kids to do homework, Mom to work on her sewing projects, Dad to spread his work out at night, etc.

That big table with 3 feet of extra space comes in really handy for most families in this room.

Given that you don't have too much space, the question is what a 10x16 gets you over a 10x13. The former allows you to have a 10-person table (9 foot) that you'll probably want to keep in 8-person configuration most of the time. The latter allows for an 8-person table (7 foot) that you'll probably want to keep in 6-person configuration most of the time. From an aesthetical point of view, I think there's a big jump from a 4-person table look to a 6-person table look, but then there's diminishing returns. I.e., you dining room won't appear small if you have it set up as a 6-person with a decent amount of space around it, which 10x13 will allow.

On the practical side, and we're a couple so adjust accordingly, we rarely do the 10-person thing. I.e., although a 10-person table looks good, from a practical perspective you're almost always under that number (e.g., a 6-person dinner party) or over it (a 30-person party).

On the other hand, the kitchen is something you use every day. Doing a 10-person dinner from an 8x9 kitchen is cramped anyways, so it's not quite like the larger dining room gets you that much better an ability to entertain a larger group.

Thus, if you've gotta give something up, I'd say give it up in the dining room which will impact your life much less frequently.

"Mom to work on her sewing projects, Dad to spread his work out at night, etc."

Matt sometimes forgets what century he's living in. Maybe its a deep seated desire for to submerge in a super powerful Hot Tub Time Machine (obviously pre-1986, more like 1966) but Matt have you forgotten what some of the other implications of that move could be? (Unless you happen to be straight white man and you have said that you aren't.)

On the other hand I might be overreacting to a tongue in cheek comment, rising to bait as it were. If so, touche Matt. Had you not been detained from attending Wednesday's festivities, you would understand why.

So moms don't sew anymore, and dads don't bring work home anymore either?

i limit myself to darning socks.

i think the other half of nada's analysis needs to be done as well. what do the extra feet get you in the kitchen? does it provide you with room to put in some things you really want, or can the smaller space contain all that you need. it's not enough room to add an island, if it just makes a galley kitchen wider and more open i don't know that that would be my choice, but if it enabled me to add a substantial pantry i'd probably go for it. for resale i think there would be buyers for either option, so you need to think about how the space would ideally work for you.

Also, at the smaller size you basically have a true galley, with nothing at the short end, but the consolation prize to that is that you can access the cupboards on both straight runs. Once you go to a U-shape, you have corners, and tight spaces with corners are a nightmare for getting cupboards, unless you want a lot of dead space or very expensive customization.

I'm proud of you, AR ... most girls these days don't even own a darning needle.

what is a darning needle?

Most of the Moms I know bring home work and the few stay at homes I know (including two I can think of here) don't strike me as the sewing type.

Lord, our society is going to pot when moms stop sewing ...

kitchens and bathrooms sell homes.

AH, i needed something to fill the emptiness after i gave up crochet.

I'm still pretty crochety myself.

kennethd, brokers sell homes too.

NYCMatt, pot is a great idea, but my generation calls it 'weed'.

kennethd, many people in the market for a three bedroom family home would also like a decent-sized dining room.

Why can't Dads sew? (Of course the idea of my father sewing is about as funny as myself with a needle and thread.) But I think sewing, like cleaning and routine cooking has been largely outsourced at least in middle class and above New York. Another reason we rely on immigrant labor. Oh but that's another discussion.

Um, tailors?

maybe at our next gathering we can needlepoint catchy phrases on pillows, men and women both.

sorry awald. there are some great things you can do with corners, but they do tend to be expensive, and sometimes not particularly useful except as extra storage, and if the corner gives you additional access but it's the wall with the window you might not get that much out of making the kitchen a U. upstate for one of my corners i'm installing something similar to the lazy susan, but it contains three wastebaskets.

Well, Matt: I should win some Mother of the Year award then. I embroider, knit & sew. I have a closet converted into a "sew" closet.

But back to OP's point. He/she confused the issue by introducing "resale" into the equation. If resale is of great importance, then awald needs to look at what similar-line apts have done in the bldg. I'll give you an example. In general, on the UWS, in the big classic 7+ apts, people expect a substantial dining room over a large kitchen. They don't quite know what to pay for a large (but not super-large with seating for 8) kitchen and a smaller dining room. Now, for a classic 6 apt, it is acceptable to the market up here to convert DR into a 3rd BR, and subsume the maid's room into the K.

If it's just a question of living your life, and not losing too much in a resale, then awald should go ahead with the best combo for his/her purposes.

kitchen

yep folks sew - by hand, buttons, hems, hooks/eyes, i even have a sewing kit - but who the hee to they hey has room for a sewing machine - and really, tho i love the idea of a beautiful, nicely furnished dr with all the dr acoutrements - with so many "i don't cook" folks in our city, and yes I know the expectation is a substantial dr and i know the reality of that room in our re market, it's a picture only room, save for what, <4 x a year. bigger kitchen if you can. but that's just me.

"with so many "i don't cook" folks in our city,"

Um ... they still EAT.

And they need someplace to sit down to eat.

it depends on your lifestyle, but i vote dining room. i think people go overboard with kitchens these days, making kitchens suitable for a full time staff. a large dining area is important though, because, as several people pointed out, you use the table for many things other than eating. kids' homework, work, and projects like sewing. i just can't imagine a home without a large comfortable dining room/area. i also think what throws people off is the word "entertain", which sounds formal and stuffy. most people probably do not host formal dinner parties very often, but they do eat family meals and have friends over. we have 2-3 couples over a few times a week, these evenings include take out and booze, not much cooking or planning. we are also both close with our families, so lots of grandparents and cousins over all the time. do you have kids? when you host paydaytes, where are the parents? my girlfriends and i shoot the shit around the table while the kids run around. it depends on your lifesyle, but all you need in the kitchen are the appliances and some counter space imo.

i'm sure there are lots of othere errors in my post, but the one that sticks out the most is paydaytes. it's unlikely you host many of those, but you might host a few playdates here and there

Agreed, Alex.

My grandmother had 11 children, and for more than half a century cooked meals every day for no less than 10 people out of a 9x8 kitchen with less than five feet of counter space and -- OMG! -- a simple one-oven, four-burner, non-restaurant quality Hotpoint stove!

I guess in my family we hung out in the kitchen - did homework on the island stools, etc. - so the big kitchen was nice. And even when we entertain now, people tend to hang out a drink wine around the kitchen island while I cook. But it depends on your lifestyle. Plus, if you can't put an island, perhaps a larger dining room with a less formal table would work.

nycm - i do enjoy most of your commentary and the Hotpoint throwback references and yes you can still buy one but who know if's it's only a mere shadow of the 1950/1960/1970 models -- and all the old school references and good on ya for that and the way you roll, but it's 2010 ppl in this city eat out or in front of the tv when they order in-tho i do take comfort when i go to WF or TJ and see folks shopping up a storm as that tells me folks are cooking at home. Any we all had Grannys who cooked in tiny kitchens.