About Toren

slim, It is expensive to buy and sell condos in Manhattan, and you could have gotten a lot more space in Park West Village, but not today. Plus, the carrying charges at PWV are absurdly low compared with anywhere else in lower Manhattan. It is adjacent to Central Park, Columbus Square, which gets relatively high rents, Whole Foods, and other shopping. That area has experienced a huge shot in the arm in the past five years, due to Columbus Square. Yes, it is not as prime as 72nd/Broadway, and never will be, but much lower monthly costs and spacious apartments are a huge positive.

I see the mud slinging has re-emerged on this board. Alas.

Lutrasi -- I can’t make heads or tails from your post other than 1) You’re Asian -- OK .. so what should we infer from that statement and how is it relevant? Are you saying you can’t be racist because you’re Asian? I’m not sure I follow / like / understand the kind of socio-political statement you’re implying. 2) You volunteer with people in need -- commendable, but my question on how that’s relevant to real estate remains.

You seem to an open-minded and caring person -- but you have made some very telling assumptions about people on this board -- like we don’t volunteer, we haven’t been to a home in the project, and that by walking through a project (because let’s face it walking through is one of the easiest ways to get to the other side of other side of Forte Greene) is indecent. Certainly that wasn’t my intention and if you feel it was, I’m happy to discuss (my contact information is well documented above), and I’d appreciate your feedback.

Slim -- oh my! Them’s fighting words -- though I noticed the grammatical perfection of those words, very lawyer like of you, I wish I could do the same. While I don’t approve of your tone, I do agree that our neighbors are “hard working law abiding citizens”. I’d like point out to the critics that if you look at sources (i.e. spotcrime.com) you’ll see relatively low crime rates for downtown Brooklyn and the Toren’s area in particular has had none in the last few months. Compare that with Boerum Hill -- which has had 6 shootings / stabbings (geebus!) in the last two months.

Now unleashing my inner hippie, Manhattan was (and is) great. After 15 years I still couldn’t get enough. But defying all expectations Brooklyn has been panning out better. And not least of which are the lovely residents I’ve met. We’ve barely been here two weeks and our fellow residents have been so helpful, friendly and dare I say neighborly? I haven’t made friends this fast since Woodstock. Peace, love and flowers - chai

"One Toren resident said above that she and her husband/boyfriend walked through the projects and "enjoyed" it. I don't know what they actually enjoyed in that experience or if it ever came to their hipster mind whether the project residents reciprocally enjoyed their visit, or intrusion, more appropriately. It's people's home, not a petting zoo!"

Bingo. What an idiot.

> Ten years ago, this neighborhood was a disaster area

Jeez, another know-nothing.

10 years ago, it wasn't that different. Most of the buildings across flatbush were there... for years. The projects.... have been there for years. It wasn't a high-crime spot.

Only difference is, they shoved some yuppies into the sliver in between.
Pretending that the yuppies are somehow "saving" this neighborhood is moronic. The yuppies are only doing it to benefit themselves, and they aren't saving anybody.

Otherwise, the neighborhood 'aint changing a lot... mainly because the projects did, and will dominate it.

"Compare that with Boerum Hill -- which has had 6 shootings / stabbings (geebus!) in the last two months. "

Let me guess.. in the... uh... projects??!!?

see...

lutraci, slim_shylock, chai - thanks for your opinions.

somewhereelse - i think by now everyone knows your position. no need to repeat yourself over and over again. throwing out "idiot", "know-nothing" and "moronic" at other people's opinions - besides being rude - does not serve the discussion at all. thanks

ewww! ... brokers posing investment banker-turned-lawyer on this board?? that's worrisome. judging from the sales pitch though, i guess he could have worked for AIG and become lawyer in '08, when speculative trades dried out and law suits began pouring in.

it wasn't my intention to make any socio-political statement here; i frequently find myself on the fence about that scary word 'gentrification' and i don't have an answer for that. what i know for sure is that putting a few luxury buildings next to poor public housing doesn't solve anyone's problem. if residents of toren, oro and avalon really want to improve their neighborhood and investment, they should actively engage in community works specifically for the ingersoll and whitman houses. otherwise, it will take a while for anything to change.

you may think all these social issues have nothing to do with real estate but i beg to differ. the world is not fair for sure and there are always rich people, poor people and the middle class like most of us. but when a critical mass of people actually stand up to improve their community, good things happen. ... and sadly, the opposite happens as well. like stocks, it's a popular myth that real estate value and neighborhood quality can only go up.

toren is indeed a beautiful architecture. so i wish all you guys living and putting money there the best luck. get to know your neighbors, inside and outside the building, and make positive changes -- well, it's hard when you don't even step out of apartment for laundry like 80% of new yorkers do.

"People defending upscale apartments in Harlem and DoBro like to throw the word racist around at those who question the wisdom of spending your life's savings to move in next to the housing projects. In my opinion, it is far better to look at a neighborhood full of housing projects and say "no thanks" than to move to said neighborhood and call yourself a "pioneer" because you relocated to a place where thousands of black people already live and hope they move out so you can make money on your condo. "

Sad, but true.

The folks who try to ride the wave of gentrification are, more often than not, simply hoping that the poor black folks are replaced by yuppie white folks. They might not admit it, but thats what we're talking about.

Pointing out the accuracy of their wishes isn't racist... its the wishes themselves that are.

"it's a popular myth that real estate value and neighborhood quality can only go up. "

true that. Bubble pops get very interesting for a lot of folks who didn't know that neighborhoods can get worse.

Wow, somewhereelse that is excellent stuff you've written there. I especially agree with your 2nd to last post.

I haven't posted here in sometime, I haven't fully read this thread either, but I wish to say this without all that: DoBro has definitely changed for the better in ways I would describe if I had more time, possibly tonight, but for now I'm a little busy but I want to leave everyone here with this:

DoBro has definitely changed for the better. There are plenty of little things that have lead to this change and plenty of big things that initiated all this.

If you were to describe it in physics: DoBro was a large negative mass which I once thought could never be moved forward simply because there wasn't enough energy to be applied. That massive initial energy has certainly been applied by ORO, Avalon, Toren, BellTell, Brooklyner, Brooklyn GOLD and the effect is that this place is definitely alive and kicking. There's no other way to describe it.

City point is going to happen:
http://therealdeal.com/newyork/articles/city-point-retail-and-housing-development-at-the-fulton-mall-in-queens-gets-20m-in-federal-stimulus-funds

Coming to the defense of my fellow Toren owner, I've had the pleasure of meeting Slim and can vouch he appears to be what he said he was. I suppose it's easier for the jackals to chalk up his (valid) points to "sales pitches" and "broker shill", rather than to actually have a discussion with an articulate owner.

lutrasi -- do you really think that Slim meant AIG when he said investment bank? Would thinking that he worked for some failed financial institution make it all right for you to dismiss the points he raised? Shame.

Dear all,

Thanks for all comments, sharings and discussions. I visited Toren, Oro, Schermerhorn, Beltel at last.

The following are my personal observations and findings:
1)With the recent price cut, I think Toren's current pricing is reasonable. Toren is much cheaper than Oro, but commuting to metro is relatively closer.(e.g. Delkab, Jay Street, etc.)
2)Toren's exterior building is an icon in Flatbush. Its interior finishing is pretty good too, even though some said the traffic is busy, the quality of window insulation is great, lots of window schedules allowing sunlight coming to the unit. Clubhouse amenities are nicer as compared to others.
3)Schermerhorn has the cheapest price and interior sq. ft. is relatively optimal but its totally of different class. I would only consider Schermerhorn for rental investment.
4)Flatbush is gentrifying for sure. Time will tell as Brooklyn has changed throughout these 10+ years.
5)The only thing that bothers me about Toren being its entrance, which appeared like backdoor of a supermarket.
6)The 25 year abatement is definitely attractively, but the common costs is really expensive.
7)Beltell is too unique, its definitely not my cup of tea.

My conclusion is: Sales price of Toren at this stage is fair. From an investment point of view, I think rental competition is fierce among DTB, thus with Toren's high common costs may not be the best choice. As long as you can accept the entrance, I think Toren is not a bad choice from a user point of view, (especially those 03' 2bed2bath units-the view is unlikely to have much changes in future). If you do not like those 2 bedrooms' layouts, their 1 bedroom units are pretty nice too. Since I heard that most singles would rather share to stay in Manhattan, I will not consider Studios because its relatively hard to rent out.

About Manhattan vs. Brooklyn
As a foreigner visiting New York City, I spent some time exploring Manhattan and Brooklyn.
From an investors' point of view, I think there is nil to negative return for investment properties in Manhattanm, while generally people have similar rental budget, living in Brooklyn would have improvement in quality of living, size, space and air.

The Brooklyn Heights up till Park Slope area is definitely attractive. With short commuting distance and convenience taking the subway between Manhattan and Brooklyn, I think living in Brooklyn feels more like home, relatively less density in high rise commercials even though DTB is piling up. I felt that you really need a car if living in Upper East of Manhattan. (Even with a car, the traffic congestion and finding parking space are stressful in Manhattan!) If you live closer to subway in Manhattan, it must be very expensive or extremely small.

From both investment and personal preference of living, I chose Brooklyn! :)

I think the following links will help real estate consumers for Downtown Brooklyn get an idea of it's changes that are happening

www.metrotechbid.org

www.dbpartnership.org

www.fultonstreet.org

I would also visit the local police precinct right across the ORO on Gold Street, or google the "84 POLICE PRECINCT" and personally meet with the officers and request a copy of the "crime statistics" within the past year to hear the history of complaints in the area, I would like to hear if there is a "neighborhood watch" and also visit the area at night to see how it feels. The crims statistics is PUBLIC INFORMATION and I would rather hear it from the "precinct" than listen to someone's opinion and live in fear. Fear does not solve concerns, it is best to be well informed and educated and take on a proactive approach, this will help in the decision making. You are not just buying an apartment you are investing in a community and a future and do some legwork and invest in being well informed...